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I was referring to MTGO versions of CB with 4 Grim Lavamancer and 1 Firespout main being run by lsv. Lavamancer + Firespout are too un-synergetic imho to be run at the same time.Quote:
Originally Posted by jin
Both Firespout and Lavamancer don't deal with fat creatures like Goyf or KotR and one can only have so many Swords.
A friend of mine top4'd at a big tournament (117 people) last sunday piloting Baseruption. Here's the list:
Maindeck
// Lands
4 Underground Sea
3 [B] Tropical Island
3 [B] Tundra
2 [OD] Island
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
// Creatures
4 [RAV] Dark Confidant
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
2 [DIS] Trygon Predator
// Spells
4 [IA] Swords to Plowshares
4 [IA] Brainstorm
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [CS] Counterbalance
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [NE] Daze
2 [BOK] Threads of Disloyalty
2 [FD] Vedalken Shackles
2 [WWK] Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Sideboard
SB: 2 [WWK] Nature's Claim
SB: 2 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 2 [IA] Hydroblast
SB: 2 [TE] Perish
SB: 2 [UL] Engineered Plague
SB: 2 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 2 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 1 [ALA] Ethersworn Canonist
Talk about a blast from the past, huh?
The list is a pretty standard Baseruption list, with some adjustments based on my friend's taste (like, he hates Ponder in C-Top and he swears 20 lands are perfectly enough for him).
The first thing I asked him when I saw the list was: "I don't know how you could beat pure aggro with that deck."
He said: "I faced none."
:eyebrow:
I believe improving the aggro matchup is the key problem of this kind of deck; other than that, Bob is probably enough to give it an edge over the endless sea of aggro-control and control decks one could face.
I was thinking about maybe trying to toss some Rhox War Monks or Knights of the Reliquary in there (maybe replacing Shackles and Threads, as I'm afraid they could be too slow): they would serve as additional blockers against aggro, and they would be able to end games rather quickly once you're in control. What do you think about that? One of the downsides is that Perish would become a lot less attractive...
One thing my friend stressed a lot is how good Nature's Claims were for him: they allowed him to answer 1st-turn Vials, and they made it much much easier to deal with Choke. The downside is that, as you can't really avoid playing a couple Krosan Grips, you'd eat some 4 SB slots for disenchant effects...
Grim lavamancer is also quite good v. Elves which has been popular on MTGO lately. And you might not think so at first but its quite effective v. dredge as well. Mainly for the ability to kak itself at instant speed to remove bridges. That way you actually stand a chance in game 1s.
Tbh, it's quite hard to get multiple activations out of him in a deck like CT in the first place (when you need them). Firespout is better because it's good against all the aggro decks, not just some of them. He's a reasonable inclusion in the sideboard, but if you're cutting down on the Firespouts for him, I think you're making a mistake.Quote:
Originally Posted by ExplosPlankton
lsv's version seems to be catching on in the daily legacy queues. A lot of different people are running his version, almost card for card.Quote:
Originally Posted by tangram
4 lavamancer and 1 firespout doesn't seem too bad. I thought you were talking more like 4/3 split.. I think Firespout as a 1-of in the wake of 4 lavamancers is fine simply because if you need to cast the Firespout, you probably don't have any lavamancers. It's quite the same in Brad Nelson's Rock/Junk deck since he played 1x Pernicious Deed in a deck that runs only cards in the 0-3 range. I think these type of 1-ofs are fine if you have regularly and constant removal. These 1-ofs are more like reset buttons which you might need if you don't have an active lavamancer in the CBT deck or a goyf in the Rock/Junk deck.Quote:
Originally Posted by tangram
You aren't going to cast Firespout when you have Lavamancers on the table and you probably wouldn't need to.
I don't have LSV's list, so I don't know whta's going on, but I'm assuming he doesn't have white for plow. In that case, it still seems fine simply because no goyf will swing at your goyf if you have an active lavamancer. With that said, I don't think he needs removal simply because he has an edge in the goyf-stall...
Having played againt Goyf a bunch, he is enormously difficult to burn out and super annoying to deal with via Gempalm incinerator. All too often you activate incinerator only for your opp. to brainstorm/swords in response thereby making it do nothing (you can even see Gerry T do this in the finals of SCG SJ).Quote:
Originally Posted by jin
I think the MTGO list is different from the one he used at SCG Open. His list Open list was according to the coverage close to GerryT's with the exception that GerryT didn't use little Jace.Quote:
Originally Posted by jin
Personally I just prefer 4 Firespout main + 4 Swords and additional solutions in board (loads of aggro around here).
1 Flooded Strand
1 Forest
2 Island
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Mountain
1 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Vendilion Clique
4 Brainstorm
4 Counterbalance
2 Counterspell
1 Firespout
4 Force of Will
2 Jace Beleren
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Spell Snare
4 Swords to Plowshares
Sideboard
2 Blue Elemental Blast
2 Firespout
2 Krosan Grip
1 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
2 Sower of Temptation
2 Spell Pierce
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Vendilion Clique
This is LSV's list from a legacy daily event online. The maindeck differences between his list and Gerry T's runner up list from San Jose are -1 forest, -4 grim lavamancer, -2 Jace Beleren, +1 Volcanic Island, +1 Vendilion Clique, +2 Firespout, +2 Repeal, +1 Jace the Mind Sculptor. And I believe the only sideboard differences are 2 pithing needle over the 2 crypts. Gerry T's list is pretty much traditional except for the pair of repeals. It'll be interesting to see whether this innovation becomes industry standard going forward.
Well, that's just really a problem of the Goblin player and doens't say much about the power of goyf. I never incinerate a goyf unless I have 2 more goblins than the goyf has toughness. And seriously, that's not even that hard since goyf is a 4/5 at best in a deck that packs sorceries and instances. Usually i fight 3/4 goyfs as the only things in the yard are instance, lands and creatures.Quote:
Originally Posted by FieryBalrog
That's really not too hard to deal with especially in lists that run Mogg War Marshall. I don't even run Mogg War Marshalls. Oh I forgot, this wasn't the goblin thread. If I were to fight CBT with my Goblin deck, I'd only burn out if I had 1 more Goblin as a CBT deck with 2 swords is unlikely. Even if they did, trading 2 swords for 2 goblins just to save their goyf is actually quite a good trade for the Goblin player.
So he doesn't pack white? Sorry, I'm just lazy to look up the list. With regards to your last comment though, I think it's just a matter of playing style. Your way is more bomb oriented in that it relies on the Firespout for swarm control. LSV's lavamancer build is much quicker and can control the swarms earlier leaving only the big therats to be delt with via countermagic or goyf. He tries to deal with the problem before they arise where as Firespout deals with the problem when the situation is already out of hand.Quote:
Originally Posted by tangram
I'm not sure which is the best, although I'm saying I see the contrasts between the two strategies. With LSV's build, it is much hard to play around as his removal is constant versus Firespouts where decks can slow play their creatures. However, an unsuscpted Firespout is very devastating.
Oh thanks so much,.. I didn't read your post until I posted this. that helps a lot!Quote:
Originally Posted by ExplosPlankton
So he does pack swords to plowshares, then the lavamancer/firespout split is fine...
Interesting, why would you say that about Repeals? I looked at it, but didn't really understand what purpose they might serve.
i would say the main purpose of repeals is te cantrip effect, but a cantrip, that gets you out of a tricky situation is not that bad in my eyes
Keep in mind that repeal also helps you deal with things that have made it through your counterbalance, which can sometimes be useful. My guess is that it was mostly for the mirror, as bouncing an opponent's balance when you have your own could be huge. It also has the potential to bounce goyf/Clique in the face of swords if you're lucky. That said, I'm not sure if it's worth the deck space, but it definitely has its uses.
Yeah I was just going to post about that after AggroSteve's comment about it bouncing things and cantripping because it hit me that it bounces CB for 3cmc which is supposedly hard to hit. That's interesting. I don'tk now about saving your own creatures with it, but I can see how it would be usefule to fight the mirror as bouncing a Jace2.0 for 5 is nearly uncounterable with CB.Quote:
Originally Posted by Valtrix
I think it servse as what used to be Rushing River as it is a pretty flexible card to solve problems. I'm with you though, I don't know if it deserves a spot as the lists are generally pretty tight.
I've been trying cunning wish in the "flex" slot. It isn't the best card ever, but it is a three that pitches to force of will and think that that is pretty relevant, and it is almost never dead but often too slow against the aggressive decks. My wish board is sort of in flux and not optimal at the moment.
Does this deck want the new Tarmogoyf Tutor? (Green Zenith Sun).
@ Drago, I'm sure the No-Pro lists will want the Zenith while the 4 colour firespout lists probably won't. Firespout + dryad arbor are not great friends. It is LITERALLY a tarmogoyf tutor in the 4c lists while the No-pro lists can abuse it in more ways.
The problem with 4c build are that you just have Goyf as creatures(vendillion don't block and you sideout sometimes) so I'm testing Green Zenith as Goyfs 5th and 6th.. it is just too good that I pre-ordered a playset today.Also I have 2 or 3 green tool box creatures in SB.
PS:Did not tested CounterTop Progenitus yet.
OH GOOD A TUTOR FOR GOYF IS HORRIBLE!!!Quote:
Originally Posted by ivanpei
Heh, but I know what you are saying. 4C CT doesn't do anything else with the Green Zenith.
Hi, I'm a Baseruption lover, you CAN'T win against Zoo and you've to play perfectly with Goblin and merfolk if you want to win.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alphez
I'm testing a solution that may appear strange: 2x engenireed explosives.
Creatures
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Trygon Predator (pre-side is an utlity, post side gives you a 3x against artifact)
1 Vendilion Clique
Istants
4 Brainstorm
3 Daze (you dont' nedd this card always, 4 are usually too much, 3 is perfect)
1 Enlightened Tutor (Fantastic, it gives you more choice and a +1 for other artifacts and enchantments)
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Counterbalance
2 Engineered Explosives
4 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Vedalken Shackles
1 Forest (If you want to save yourself from moon-effect)
2 Island
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
3 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
3 Underground Sea
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor (+1, it's too important in this deck)
Sideboard
2 Meddling Mage (jolly, against combo's)
1 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Hydroblast
2 Krosan Grip
2 Perish
2 Engineered Plague
1 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Pithing Needle
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Tormod's Crypt
Why don't you just play Wall of Roots?Quote:
Originally Posted by Shimi