Being double black is a huge liability. That's a large reason why UBG and UBR decks are moving away from Hymn to Tourach, since it completely messes up the manabase.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kich867
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Being double black is a huge liability. That's a large reason why UBG and UBR decks are moving away from Hymn to Tourach, since it completely messes up the manabase.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kich867
As already said I think Mind Twist would most likely be played in Control Decks. Of course I wouldn't handle early problems, there are other cards that take care of those, but most likely as a kind of finisher emptying the opponents hand completely.
If you get hit by a Mind Twist for 3 or even 4 there is no coming back and Control is the deck that is most likely to get to a point where your actually can cast it for that amount.
Even against faster Decks it's still strong. Aggro decks will be kind of forced to overextend, opening them for mass removal. Against Combo it is not very strong in my opinion (except maybe in cases where you are able to slow them down by countermagic or other discard to actually resolve a devastating Mind Twist, but there are better options).
I am not sure if it would be too strong for legacy but I am sure that it is a quite strong card in the right decks.
Agreed. People are running Mana Leak over Counterspell because it is so much easier to cast. Double anything puts a significant strain on mana bases. Especially spells you want to cast early.Quote:
Originally Posted by lordofthepit
This is what separates good deck builders from the bad ones: people who base their assumptions using porous arguments without actually understanding that one of the most enduring and important aspects of this format is - in fact - having a proper mana configuration. Using cards that have very narrow and specific mana requirements forces the person building a deck using those cards to configure their lands in such a way that it can be supported.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kich867
Apparently you've forgotten that Wasteland does in fact exist in this format and that fetching purposely for dual Black sources is going to completely throw off the chronology of how you attempt to cast your spells from your hand.
Are you purposely fetching for two Black mana so you can cast something like Hymn, or are you using Hymn as a supplement to an already Black-heavy manabase where it wouldn't be an issue to begin with? You cannot just throw two Swamps in your deck and say, "I have fetches; I'll be just fine because I have a few lands that can support it." That is a weak argument, and the fact that Spell Snare is highly prevalent in today's general Legacy meta only makes cards like Hymn that much weaker, if not a straight-up liability.
Mind Twist looks much more attractive at this point not necessarily because of the fact it necessitates only a single Black mana, but because at the right time it can be a straight-up blowout with protection.
I don't get the argument that Mind Twist would make control stronger. Aggro decks will empty their hand before Mind Twist does more than Hymn to Tourach, and combo decks are going to go off before Mind Twist is cast unless the deck already has ways to answer combo before then (like Force of Will). Mind Twist would be good in control against the control mirror, for obvious reasons, but I fail to see how that would make control stronger. If anything, other decks (like aggro) could run Mind Twist too, and ultimately push control out of the metagame... although I don't think Mind Twist is that strong anyway.
Black Vise is alot scarier as a "destroys control" card, and would be very unhealthy for the format. I think Mind Twist, and several other cards, are safe to come off the banned list.
Mind Twist does not seem overpowered in this format. I could see it finding a niche, but in general pointed discard (TS, IoK, Duress, CT) and Hymn seem like they fill most decks need for discard, and as others have mentioned once you start getting into the truly devastating Mind Twist realm of 4-5 mana there's Planeswalkers that have far greater impact.
Hymn to Tourach isn't bad in EsperBlade because double black is hard to get to in Legacy; it's bad in EsperBlade because EsperBlade is built with a shitty manabase that can't support it. Does that settle that question?
Mind Twist is an obviously non broken card. There is no non-silly argument against unbanning it.
Agreed on Mindtwist.
Also, when are we doing a new poll for this thread? I think its about time. That one is years old now.
What does everyone think of unbanning Frantic Search? Or has High Tide combo already got its fair share of cards this year?
Strikes me as dangerous, the deck has a pretty consistent turn 4 goldfish (w/ FoW defense). Frantic Search would only make it more resilient, without providing a boost to virtually any other deck.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vacrix
I'd rather see things like Land Tax and Mind Twist come off the list, while they are probably just underwhelming, I feel like they at least can be applied to varied strategies.
I would love to see some unbannings.
Mind Twist would be interesting (no danger to the format imo) and the earthcraft combo does not seem to be too strong at all, right?
Just for fun I would like to have legacy without SFM for 6 months. Sure it's not going to happen and is not necessary in terms of power level, but it would be a very exciting time.
I agree that SFM is very boring and it would be nice to have a period without it even though it's not actually ban worthy :) More than half the field is trying to bring the same 3-4 equipments into play and support it with their flavor of support colors.
Also for the Frantic Search, I think it would push high Tide over the edge because then you'd stop playing Candelabras and put in Card Draw + Acceleration. I can see turn 3 kills becoming a very real possibility and Turn 4s very reliable. With counter backup and not vulnerable to wasteland. Actually sounds very sweet when you think about it :)
That's too bad.
It's odd that they haven't unbanned some of these things.
Its funny how I misread it at first. I seriously thought Lingering Souls got banned because of Martell did at the GP.
Good thing I read it again and prevented myself from posting frantic posts.
Did they publish the list, any changes?
Edit: Found it.
Maybe we should copy OT posts from that topic here?Quote:
Originally Posted by Hanni
I guess i will copy my "most to less unbannable cards" list for giggles. I'm thinking of moving Drain down a tier. I've been thinking about it and yes, it's insanely good, but i'm not sure which decks would really benefit from it. MonoU with 3 Batterskulls + 4 JTMS? Maybe add Nevynirral's Disk or Shackles (in this format with germ tokens, Delvers and Mongoose Nevynirral's is probably the better choice)
EDIT: edited a bit my list. Merged the last two and the first two tiers.Quote:
The "card could be played, format relatively unchanged" tier:
1- Tax
2- Vise
3- Twist
4- Earthcraft
5- Worldgorger Dragon
6- Recruiter
7- Memory Jar (with no tinker)
8- Yawgmoth's Bargain
The "card would become prevalent in the format, probably break it" tier:
9- Survival of the Fittest
10- Hermit Druid (would be an incredibly strong deck, but easily hateable)
11- Mystical tutor
12- Frantic Search (Card is not as good as desire but considerably less narrow than desire, fueling spiral tide, past in flames decks, Vengevival decks)
13- Mental Misstep
14- Imperial Seal
15- Vampiric Tutor
16- Mind's Desire
17- Skullclamp
18- Library of Alexandria
19- Windfall
20- Mana Drain
21- Tolarian Academy (actually i haven't any idea of a deck where this could be busted, since free artifacts and cheap artifact mana in legacy sucks)
The "just no" tier:
22- Mana Vault
23- Gush (yeah i consider gush that broken, just because it fit in every deck)
24- Fastbond
25- Wheel of fortune
26- Timetwister
27- Workshop
28- Necro
29- Demonic tutor
30- Flash
31- Strip Mine
32- Channel
33- Balance
34- Yawgmoth's Will
35- Demonic Consultation
36- Oath of Druids
37- Tinker
38- Time Vault
39- Bazaar of Baghdad
40- Ancestral Recall
41- Time Walk
LULZ @ Mana Vault, that shit would be fucking broken. It would be what Mishra's Workshop is to vintage. Even worse, it would just go into ANT for a turn 2 Ad Nauseam. Maybe some of you should spend some time playing Vintage before even considering some of the broken cards mentioned in this thread.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gheizen64
"The "obscenely good but maybe still a playable format" tier:"
21- Mana Drain
I would personally love this, but if legacy can't even handle Mental Misstep, how the F would it handle drain?
21- Gush (yeah i consider gush that broken, just because it fit in every deck)
Without Fastbond, maybe. It would still be highly playable with Exploration, or just, you know.. with islands.
21- Fastbond
I'm not even sure where this would end up but I'm pretty sure High Tide would like to splash green for it. Also, TurboEldrazi (ramp into insane mana and life with 12post, and mitigate the comes into play effect since you'll be playing them all in one turn instead of over-turns) and 43lands (Ghost quarter your entire deck with crucible).
22- Workshop (no jewelry, no crypt, lodestone not good in this format)
We've been through Turn 1 Trinisphere, in vintage before. Do you really want this?
23- Oath
Invalidates creature strategies except for 40qasalipridemage.dec
24- Wheel of fortune
25- Timetwister
Legacy has no restricted list. We don't want this. Every competent player would pick a variation of tendrils/hightide.
Mana Vault is a win-more in ANT unless it's forced to play 4 Ad Nauseam, it seldom goes that route and Lion's Eye Diamond is strictly better due to its double function as hellbent enabler. I find it super easy going off turns 1-2 (with my current C. Mox/City of Traitors build), I don't see why Mana Vaults replacing Rituals would make it even more scary.
My candidates for unbanning:
Earthcraft
Mystical Tutor
Memory Jar
Yawgmoth's Bargain or Mana Vault (NOT BOTH, having both will lead to broken things in this format)
Survival of the Fittest
Cards I don't want to see in this format:
Black Vise, Land Tax, Mind Twist.
They would likely mess up the metagame and invalidate tier strategies which involve tempo and card advantage.
Just for giggles, I tried building a Welder MUD deck that features Memory Jar for multiplayer kitchen games. While it helps Welder's (the creature) in terms of power level, it's not as dangerous as a turn 2 win with Storm-based combo deck (that has discard/permission/chant back up). The earliest I had it going for was turn 2, then had another god hand that involved Goblin Welder, Lightning Greaves and a means to play them out.
Arguably, I can Weld the Jar back in and repeat the whole process since my initial god hand didn't yield a definitive threat on the board but having your opponent have a set of full hand, it's not farfetched that he's going to draw into hate (and hoping he didn't tap out).
I can't vouch for Megrim-Jar strategies as I never tested those but in a grand scheme of things, which decks (both historically and theoretically) can really break Jar.
I remember having this discussion with Grim Monolith a couple of years back. Apparently the card is so broken that Storm-based decks and other ramp strategies will take over of the format. And when paired Voltaic Key, it will be banned again. Years has passed and it has been proven that Grim Monolith is fine.
I think a lot of the discussed cards have to be reevaluated. Instead of just theorycrafting, we have to fully see what it can do within the format by putting it to the test.
Your post makes me think that Grand Prix Legacy events should have a side-event that allows for exploration into unbanning cards.
Example: Unban Gush for the side event, allow folks to build decks using Gush, see what happens. Alternatively, the side event could allow for any deck and just change their decklist by taking up to 4x something out and including 4x Gush. That way you still have the same mix of decks but with a curve-ball thrown in. The latter option seems weaker...if a card is legal and powerful, decks would need to be built with that card in mind rather than just cramming it into an existing deck.
Would the DCI go for that? Side events that put banned cards to the test?