[DTB] Blade Control

Watching your r1 now. It's pretty funny how you made your first mistake in turn 1 by playing Polluted Delta over Flooded Strand, with 2 Swords to Plowshares in hand...
Game 2 was a nice example of why brainstormdecks just win against decks without it. I disagree with one of your Brainstorms though, at that point you had Jace, Snapcaster, Swords and Lingering Souls in hand, Tundra, Scrublad and Wasteland against his 4 lands. If you suspect him to have a Red Blast, why Brainstorm in the first place over Lingering Souls? It's not even that you barely want to put back anything, as your hand is pretty awesome against no board. I'd value developing the board higher at this spot, unless you were expecting Wastelands, which it seems you weren't. Brainstorm is too strong to waste it when you are that far ahead and don't expect him to do anything sweeper - like.
G3 was a bit sad as his draw was pretty strong, but still: Why did you use Swords on Shaman? At this point you were pretty much dead to Library anyway, but you made it worse. And you even thought loud about it :/

Your Dredge opponent round 2 was funny. He didn't seem to have an idea what he was doing G1. Casting spells against a blue deck, really?

I'm about to watch the 3rd match... good for you that I can watch them between rounds ;) Still pretty time consuming. Play Belcher the next time! :D

I went 3-1 at a local tournament today. Beating: tin fins, reanimator and BG (deathrite/goyf/bob) and losing to... well...Belcher.
i was playing the exact same list as vidi played at the GP but with intuition as 61st card (just to see how it works.)
I actually don't see anything i would change atm. Except for maybe geist, but even geist has been sweet for me. His list feels so perfect that i can't find something i dislike.

This sunday i have a GPT i'll play esperblade at. The main decision i'm trying to make now is: Do i play intuition or not. It's been sweet in grindy games: you fetch up 2 verdicts and a perish, or verdict/E.E./ruins, 3 l-souls and it completely throws the game in your favor.
However it's yet another clunky 3cc card against combo, and combo is on the rise. What are your opinions about intuition?

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Originally Posted by Mackan

I did a little review of my take on the deck here;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ze78C...GIlMpg&index=4

I think esperblade can support 24 lands, no problem. I don't think ponder is the way to go as we are not digging for particular cards like combo or tempo do.

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I have watched the first 2 matches against Jund and they're the perfect demonstration of why Wasteland is totally wrong in this deck.

In game 1, you have wanted to fetch out basic Island and Plains to have safe manasources for Mystic, only to find yourself some turns after colorscrewed off double U for Jace and B for discard spells because of those Wastelands not producing coloured mana: they have actually done more damage to you than the one done to your opponent.
Trying to play the mana denial plan so aggressively is wrong in this deck because it has a high curve as it aims to reach late-game, where its potential fully shines. If you hamper your own possibility to develop your board position by cutting yourself off colored mana, you're actually doing your opponent's game.

The fact with it is that this deck operates also on a lot of specific costs. You have pivotal spells of your strategy/"core" of your deck that cost each a single colored mana; they are 14. Furthermore, your best weapon at ruling the lategame is at double colored (UU); Snapcaster operates at 1UU/1UW/1UB, and Mystic usually requires you to leave some blue mana open for the Snare or the Brainstorm. You will realize that Wasteland is almost always detrimental in bringing this scenarios to accomplishment.

Not to mention, as you have correctly said in the deck's introduction, that playing Wasteland requires you to play more Dual lands as well, with the consequence of being forced to fetch those on a more constant basis/basics being weakened and thus, in the end, to suffer opponent Wastelands way more than the smooth version (the traditional one with just Karakas and Academy Ruins).


The only good application of Wasteland in Esperblade right now is to stop Punishing Fire, but I think other solutions have to be found (subtle ones, like Trinket Mage for a Relic of Progenitus maindeck). Wasteland is not the answer in this context.

EDIT: Also, play a Supreme Verdict maindeck. Esperblade suffers board positions like that, when you're behind and nothing can really save you, except for a mass removal off the top. Sloppy overextension by your opponent like that could/should have been punished- even by EE, which in that case could have done 3x1 (@1) or 2x1 (@2).
I think you should retool parts of your main and take example from the classical, yet working list.

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Originally Posted by Piceli89

I have watched the first 2 matches against Jund and they're the perfect demonstration of why Wasteland is totally wrong in this deck.

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I would rather say they demonstrate how playing Wastelands aggressively can go wrong. Wastelands are primarily in the deck to deal with stuff like Grove of the Burnwillows, Academy Ruins, Volrath's Stronghold, Karakas ... , not to try and manascrew your opponent.

Thanks for the input... I agree with most of what you said. I play pretty fast when not recording so when also recording I subconsciously try to keep that same tempo and it resulted in some sloppy plays / obvious mistakes. I'll try to not rush things in the future (and hopefully learn to play better aswell). So continue to point out stuff (but preferebaly in another thread I'll make later). There are some things I'd like to discuss though... About my Jund game. Mulliganing here in the first place put me back enough to keep "manascrewing" as a viable option to win the game. It's hard to grind Jund in the first place and manascrewing is not a real "plan" with the deck (like it is in RUG) but it's a nice option to have, like I mentioned in the deck tech... With plains/island I cut myself off discard and jace, both of which I don't have in hand and with mystic against an opponent with an atrocious manabase and no boardpressure I think it's a fine strategy. Even if he had the answer for mystic a topdecked lingering souls could win the race. Or him not drawing the third bob...

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Originally Posted by Mackan

I did a little review of my take on the deck here;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ze78C...GIlMpg&index=4

I think esperblade can support 24 lands, no problem. I don't think ponder is the way to go as we are not digging for particular cards like combo or tempo do.

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Ultimately i don't agree with your view on esperblade as a deck. I'd say ponder and brainstorm are primordial in this deck. In the end we are still an answer deck. We primarily want to find answers to what our opponent is trying to do and then proactively take over the game (in most cases). We have many different answers for different situations and finding the right one on the right moment is really important. The one of's vidi played are very good too. They can swing a game in your favor any time and give you an out to most situations. Being able to dig for those is one of the strength's of this deck IMO.
If i'd run wasteland, i wouldn't run 4 of them but just 1-2 and use ponder/brainstorm to search for them if i really need them. The mana base of this deck is delicate as is. We have to play around wasteland while still being able to access our 3 colors. Esperblade has a harder time doing this than bant or bug. While these wastelands could win you games against the P-fire decks it's going to cost you a lot more games against other decks.

There is a ton of Stoneblade and UW miracles in my meta and I had questions about boarding for both, specifically what people are taking out. I am playing Vidi's maindeck with the 4th Force over the Verdict. Here is my board:

1 Rest in Peace
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Flusterstorm
1 Counterspell
2 Cabal Therapy
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Disenchant
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Zealous Persecution
1 Perish
1 Humility

Stoneblade - I am generally taking out all 4 of my Force and 2 StP. I assume that the game is going to go long which makes my Spell Pierces and discard worse, but they are also pretty important for their function in the early to mid-game. I am bringing in another Clique, Disenchant, EE, Zealous Persecution and Sword of Feast and Famine. Do people bring in additional Spell Pierces here? In my testing I found that I never really wanted more than 2 copies. I have also thought about bringing in Cabal Therapies, but again I don't want to be drawing dead later in the game.

Miracles - Here I am generally taking out all of my StPs/Jitte and bringing in Counterspell, Clique, EE, Sword of FaF, and Disenchant. I leave in Forces because Miracles relies on resolving a few key spells and stopping those is critical. Again, I have thought about bringing in Therapies but I don't really want cards that are dead in the lategame.

Thoughts or suggestions?

Hey,

i piloted Esper (Vidi's list, -1 therapy, +1 perish) to a first place in a little local tournament (17 ppl)

UW Tempo 2:0
Dredge 2:1
Canadian 2:0
Goblins 1:1
AnT 2:1

I really like the one of's of the deck, being a former 4-of's player (Canadian etc.) , as you nearly always have an out within your 60. Without Intuition i dislike Cabal Therapy, as missing is brutal (netting us CDA), while our bodys (Stoneforge mostly) don't want to get sacrificed. The tempoloss in the earlygame against Combodecks (especially those, that have Infernal AND Wish, or Show and Tell AND Sneak Attack) is crucial as well in my opinion. How do you value this slot?

Another, surely already discussed, topic is time. When I try to play perfectly I often get in the timeout zone. Do you guys just try to play faster, risking some misplays but winning/loosing in time, or is this more a matter of being really familiar with the deck (although Vidi/others face timeout as well^^) ?

Cheers Johannes Gutbrod

top 16ed jupiters NELC for 50 store credit today with esper. this deck feels so good every time i played it. i don't think im motivated to do a report but i lost to reanimator on a mull to 5 and miracles.

i love this deck.

Hello guys,

so far I've been running this list (moved from UW Miracles to Blade 1.5 months ago).

Creatures (10)
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Snapcaster Mage
2 Vendilion Clique

Instants (18)
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
2 Spell Pierce
2 Spell Snare
2 Counterspell

Others (9)
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Detention Sphere
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Lands (22)
3 Wasteland
1 Academy Ruins
1 Karakas
1 Glacial Fortress
4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Tundra
3 Island
1 Plains

This weekend I am going to a GPT for Strasbourg and there will be definitely decks beyond the local scene I haven't yet played against - the known part of the meta includes 2x Show and Tell (huge problem for me), Junk with blade and without, white weenies, 2x Merfolk, 1x Goblin, 3x Canada, Mono B, BUG and Shardless BUG, 1x Esper blade, 1x UWR Geist and 2x Maverick and 1-2x Reanimator and 1x Helm Miracle. For this tournament I can get to the team resources (as one of the team members isn't going) and thus I have access to 3 Volcanic Island. My question is, for the proposed meta above and another 50% being unknown, what deck you suggest is best to take and how to build sideboard? I am torn between the U/W, no EE and Diverts in SB and the UWr with REBs and Explosives in side. I am fairly new to legacy (playing only 6 months) so I don't think I do have the full insight and really want to do best at this tournament. THanks for any advice.

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Originally Posted by AEnesidem

i agree it's playable, but i don't agree with the part of "you need to play tighter". I have played stoneblade for quite some time. I started with the UW version, then bant and now esper. The difference IMO is that esper has better tools to achieve what it wants. UW always had a problems with finding enough bodies for the equipment. Lingering souls solved that problem. Discard makes esperblade even more flexible and gives you the advantage of information. This information has been so important to me, we are playing control after all and knowing what your opponent can or can't do at that very moment is a big advantage. Black also opens up some very strong sideboard options.
In my playing i have found esperblade more difficult to play than standard UW because there's even more options. There's also the land management which adds an extra layer of difficulty.
At least in my testing, the esper version is superior to UW in most cases, and certainly the grindy matchups because souls is so powerful. Talking about lingering souls, that card makes playing jace so much easier. You can use souls as a wall for jace to hide behind till he is in the safe zone or to get some activations from him while the opponentjust attacks into spirits, that's something i missed in each other control deck i played.

I just think esper has the better tools but is even harder to master (uw wasn't an easy deck already). Since you were talking about playing "tightly", who knows you weren't playing the esper version well. Maybe you didn't manage your mana well. Maybe you made wrong choices with discard and snapcaster. It's the fact that esperblade can switch roles, has som many options and has an equal chance against about anything that makes it hard to play. I've seen a lot of pople quit the deck because of this.

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Sorry for not responding earlier (crazy week), but here's what I think on this. When I agree with some of the points made here, I strongly disagree with others. Firstly, I so-so agree in the body for equipment problem. That is because while I believe lingering souls is indeed the best tool there is in order to get a bunch of equipment holders, it's not like I ever felt like u/w was in such a shortage of bodies in the first place, like you seem to imply (with cards like elspeth, moorland hunt, and mishra's factory some time ago). Now, I could be wrong, but I really never really had a problem such as this one.

Moving on, targeted discard. And to a certain extend, my "play tighter" point. My position on this is in fact that discard doesn't let me play to my strengh, which is that I have a good knowledge of most legacy decks. I prefer relying on my knowledge in order to react to the right spell, instead of solcery speed 1 for 1ing a card. That is just how I see it. My point, when I was talking about playing tighter, was that if you know what you are facing well enough, you can get away by playing in a reactive manner, because your decisions will be the right ones. Now, as far as hand information goes, you are right in the fact that it can be important, and believe that vendillion clique tends to this issue well enough for me, when I believe I will need it, which is more around turn 3-4 in the game, when I will try to do something important in the game, like trying to resolve a jace, for exemple. for that reason, I believe that u/w isn't that much behind, when it comes to get hand information. Lastly, on the black sideboard options, I still believe that there aren't that many cards that I believe to be "better sideboard options", namely that cards that I think are better are zealous persecution, perish (that I actually splash in my u/w version), vandicate and cabal therapy.

On other points, I believe that harder land management isn't a selling point. I also believe that saying stuff like "maybe you played badly" in a forum doesn't seem that constructive either, because I could just as easily question your testing and insinuate that you didn't play u/w as it should be played. If playing grindy matchs is a problem, then try out cards that will help in grindy matches. Hell, you can even splash for lingering souls (you should already have at least 1 dual that produces a third color in your deck if you are to play u/w, just to power an explosive on 3. I prefer underground sea because it usually make people afraid of non existant discard and powers a hardcasted surgical, but I have seen volcanic island splashed in too).

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Originally Posted by ThediscoPower

Sorry for not responding earlier (crazy week), but here's what I think on this. When I agree with some of the points made here, I strongly disagree with others. Firstly, I so-so agree in the body for equipment problem. That is because while I believe lingering souls is indeed the best tool there is in order to get a bunch of equipment holders, it's not like I ever felt like u/w was in such a shortage of bodies in the first place, like you seem to imply (with cards like elspeth, moorland hunt, and mishra's factory some time ago). Now, I could be wrong, but I really never really had a problem such as this one.

Moving on, targeted discard. And to a certain extend, my "play tighter" point. My position on this is in fact that discard doesn't let me play to my strengh, which is that I have a good knowledge of most legacy decks. I prefer relying on my knowledge in order to react to the right spell, instead of solcery speed 1 for 1ing a card. That is just how I see it. My point, when I was talking about playing tighter, was that if you know what you are facing well enough, you can get away by playing in a reactive manner, because your decisions will be the right ones. Now, as far as hand information goes, you are right in the fact that it can be important, and believe that vendillion clique tends to this issue well enough for me, when I believe I will need it, which is more around turn 3-4 in the game, when I will try to do something important in the game, like trying to resolve a jace, for exemple. for that reason, I believe that u/w isn't that much behind, when it comes to get hand information. Lastly, on the black sideboard options, I still believe that there aren't that many cards that I believe to be "better sideboard options", namely that cards that I think are better are zealous persecution, perish (that I actually splash in my u/w version), vandicate and cabal therapy.

On other points, I believe that harder land management isn't a selling point. I also believe that saying stuff like "maybe you played badly" in a forum doesn't seem that constructive either, because I could just as easily question your testing and insinuate that you didn't play u/w as it should be played. If playing grindy matchs is a problem, then try out cards that will help in grindy matches. Hell, you can even splash for lingering souls (you should already have at least 1 dual that produces a third color in your deck if you are to play u/w, just to power an explosive on 3. I prefer underground sea because it usually make people afraid of non existant discard and powers a hardcasted surgical, but I have seen volcanic island splashed in too).

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The "maybe you played badly" thing wasn't personal. I just wanted to clarify that is an option too. I'm not using that to refuse all your arguments. I didn't mean to be impolite.
On the body count, ok if you have moorland haunt and elspeth it's a lot better already but it was a pretty common problem for UW to have too few bodies. I don't know if you've tested against decks with lots of removal like miracles, mirror, punishing jund etc.. but i think you'll notice your lack of threats there to stick a jitte or sword on. I am maybe biased because i love lingering souls so much, but it reinforces all the fair matchups. It makes sure jace is protected, it can overwhelm an opponent, carry a jitte, act as a fog over several turns etc... It just fixes so many problems and it's not rare to see the game change completely once i cast L-souls. Lingering souls is so multifunctional and good in this deck that i can't imagine ever cutting it (except in a combo meta). SFM's and snapcasters end up crashing into the opponent's creatures anyway when they cary a jitte while L-souls can fly over. This makes a huge difference.

The targeted discard requires knowledge too. You need to know what cards are important for them, what their good cards are against you. Besides that, the discard helps you to counter better because you know what your opponent is holding. Having to keep counter mana open all the time means you need to play more defensively especially against combo where you want a clock. Discard helps you be more agressive without dropping the disruption. Maybe you counter tightly and know what you do, but you'll always be forced in that reactive defensive position of holding mana open. I don't think that being good at countering things and knowing legacy decks is an excuse for not playing discard. You can be as talented in countering things as you want, but at the end of the day, being able to disrupt in different ways, gaining more information for your counters and dismantling opponent's hands on turn 1 is still better.
There's no discussion on the information both decks have though. You have clique, maybe 3 copies of it that you can drop starting from turn 3. Esper has 4 discard spells and often a single V-clique, this means they get information starting from turn 1, exactly when you want that info. Starting with a discard spell is so strong because it can completely dismantle the hand the opponent kept, especially if their plan involves key cards. Having info on their ways to deal with jace before dropping jace is strong but not nearly as strong as seeing the opponent's hand as early as turn 1, figure out their plan and take away key elements of that plan.
I think Esper is the better jace deck. The discard makes it more probable to drop jace on turn 4 without resistance, lingering souls protects jace like a boss and makes sure he survives to get in the safe zone or guarantee 1-2 activations. Overall, esper has an easier time sticking and protecting jace. It's IMO also the better snapcaster deck. Snappy has more targets here and is more flexible and powerful because of that. He can not only beextra counters or removal here but can also rip your opponent's hand apart.

The chance i didn't play UW as it should be is quite real. But when i look at all th eoptions both decks have and the strong plays they have, i can't help it to conclude esper is stronger. It's more flexible. It attacks from different angles which makes playing around it harder for your opponent. It has more backup for its key spells: easier jitte connection, better jace protection, more snapcaster ammo. It's better at being proactive and agressive when needed. It has lingering souls which is extremely good against anything fair and has more post-board disruption against unfair decks.

That is my opinion anyways, and sorry if this post is chaotic but i'm having a terrible hangover.

This is my Esper Confidant Stone Blade build been having some success with it at local tournaments. I play Esper Bomberman with Dark Confidant in v Dark Confidant draw power is great. Please let me know what you think.

Confidant Stone Blade

Artifact (3)
1 Batterskull
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Umezawa's Jitte

Black (7)
4 Dark Confidant
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Thoughtseize

Blue (16+1 gold)
4 Brainstorm
1 Counterspell
3 Force of Will
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Ponder
3 Snapcaster Mage
1 Vendilion Clique

Gold (2)
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Vindicate

White (11)
1 Elspeth, Knight Errant
2 Lingering Souls
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Swords to Plowshares

Lands (22)
1 Academy Ruins
1 Cavern of Souls
4 Flooded Strand
2 Island
1 Karakas
1 Marsh Flats
1 Plains
3 Polluted Delta
1 Scrubland
1 Swamp
3 Tundra
3 Underground Sea

Sideboard (15)
1 Disenchant (Equipment, Choke)
1 Duress (control/combo)
2 Flusterstorm (control/combo)
1 Force of Will (combo)
1 Humility (big creature decks, reanimator, sneak/show)
1 Perish (Green decks)
3 Rest in Peace (Graveyard hate)
1 Supreme Verdict (creatures)
1 Sword of Feast and Famine (green decks, control)
1 Sword of Fire and Ice (control, merfolkl)
1 Vendilion Clique (control/combo)
1 Zealous Persecution (elves, death+taxes, mirror)

Card choices
Batterskull - The equipment of choice for Stoneforge Mystic decks just wins so many games if you can cheat it into play as many decks have issues dealing with a 4/4 vigilance life link.

Engineered Explosives - Your catch all, it kills cheap creatures, enchantments and artifacts of up to 3 mana cost. Also you ace vs Counterbalance since you can play it for a higher cost then 2 but only use 2 colors of mana. Being able to recur it with Academy Ruins just wins sometimes.

Umezawa's Jitte - Versatile as the second main deck equipment since it can gain you life, kill your opponent faster, kill weenies or save your creature from burn.

Dark Confidant (Bob) - The reason to play black because drawing cards is awesome. Life loss can hurt but you have Batterskull and Jitte to gain life.

Inquisition of Kozilek - Takes out anything cheap < 4 which is most things but Bloodbraid, Force, Jace, Natural Order, Sneak + gives you information. Run these because the life loss from Thoughtseizes isn't good vs aggro and it can take creatures unlike Duress so not dead if you run into creature heavy decks.

Thoughtseize - Takes out anything but land in the opponents hand + gives you information. The life loss makes it not good vs aggro so only run 2.

Brainstorm - the reason we are playing blue, library manipulation wins games.

Counterspell is good to have a hard counter for when people play around Pierce.

Force of Will is necessary to not lose to combo. Can be good to protect your Mystic/Batterskull also.

Jace, the Mind Sculptor is the best planeswalker every printed, draws cards + wins the game.

Ponder helps you find what you need. Considering a Sensei's Top here but I tried it and sometimes actually wanted Ponder for the shuffle or to Flashback with snapcaster or pitch to Force. Blue card count is pretty low.

Snapcaster Mage lets you reuse your cheap spells and get a 2/1 body who can carry equipment.

Vendilion Clique is good disruption as well as a good flying clock that can pick up an equipment.

Supreme Verdict is nice to have an uncounterable board wipe. Makes the tempo and merfolk match ups better and pitches to Force of Will.

Vindicate is a catch all that can kill anything you need it to. It does cost two off colors and costs 3 and is a sorcery so only 1.

Elspeth, Knight Errant would be your 4th Jace if this was vintage but this is legacy and creatures are played. Elspeth is good vs aggro and decent vs control. Makes soldiers to protect or pumps a creature when you want to go on the offensive. Indestructible ultimate is just gravy. Considering Sorin in this spot since its easier to cast and makes lifelink creatures but the flying +3/+3 ability of Elspeth just wins games sometimes.

Lingering Souls is your reason for playing black in this deck other then bob and discard. Keeps you alive and is pretty good flying offense when the time comes.

Stoneforge Mistake is the name sake card which is your equipment tutor that also cheats it into play.

Swords to Plowshares - best creature removal spell since it exiles the creature. Their life gain doesn't really matter that much.

Academy Ruins is because recuring Engineered Explosives just wins games. It also can recur destroyed equipment which is happens more often with Abrupt Decay and Ancient Grudge being in after board.

Cavern of Souls on Human/Kor is pretty good vs the Tempo decks. Don't have to worry about running your Bob or Stonforge into Force, Daze or Spell Snare.. Might put the Glacial Fortress back in since everyone seems to cut Forces/Dazes game 2 and it helps you get around Choke which I really dislike.

Karakas is your uncounterable answer to Griselbrand + Emrakul. Can also reuse V. Clique.

Scrubland for those times you need both white and black to cast your Lingering Souls and later flash it back.

2 Island, 1 Plains, 1 Swamp because you want enough basic lands to cast everything you need and not get wasteland locked. Only things you can't cast with all your basic lands out are Elspeth and Supreme Verdict.

Sideboard
1 Disenchant - Answers Batterskull, Choke, Jitte, Sulfur Vortex, Sylvan Library + other problem artifacts + enchantments.

1 Duress - I like Duress, it can't be Divert/Misdirected to me and it clears out counters or business spells which is what I bring it in for.
Cabal Therapy can just miss + I board out Lingering Souls vs Combo.
Inquisition can't hi t4+ casting cost stuff like Force, Jace, Sneak Attack, etc.

2 Flusterstorm - total blow out vs combo. Decent vs control when counter wars happen. Although you sometimes wish it was Spell Peirce when your opponent plays a Jace.

1 Force of Will - 4th one vs combo.

1 Humility - trump vs Reanimator + Sneak and Show. Also good vs creatures with abilities. It does nerf your snapcasters and stoneforges but you have equipment, linger souls and Elspeth to get ahead with Humility in play.

1 Perish - kills all the green creatures including Teeg and that annoying Last Troll.

3 Rest in Peace - I was finding that the Nihil Spellbomb/Surgical Extraction package just isn't good enough vs Dredge so giving this a shot. Might make 1 of these a Nihil Spellbomb or Relic.

1 Supreme Verdict - uncounterable Wrath is pretty awesome vs Delver/Merfolk. Replaced the extra Engineered Explosives.

1 Sword of Feast and Famine - good vs black/green decks and the attrition of discard along with untaping your lands is awesome vs control.

1 Sword of Fire and Ice - good vs control/merfolk. Drawing cards and killing weenies is pretty good.

1 Vendilion Clique - disruption that is also a creature that you can reuse with Karakas.

1 Zealous Persecution - quite good in the Lingering Souls Mirrors or vs Elves or Death and taxes where they have lots of X/1s

Card under consideration
Geist of Saint Taft (sideboard) - People seem to run him and he puts out results but I'm not convinced he is good other then against U/W miracle / rest in peace. Too many creature around that can just block a 2/2. Even in the Stoneblade mirror there are Snapcaster, V Clique and Lingering Souls tokens.

Sensei's Divining Top - Combo's well with fetchlands and helps prevent life loss from Bob. Just finding space is difficult. I was testing it in the Ponder slot but your pretty low on blue cards for Force as it is and sometimes you want to Ponder to look for a land or wish that top pictched to Force.

Sorin, Lord of Innistrad - Considering him for the Elspeth slot. Pluses are the Vampire tokens have life link, the emblem can make for a quick win with vampires + lingering souls tokens. Sorin is also castable with the 4 basics available and does not need double white. Sorin Ultimate is awesome vs aggro if you can get it off but doesn't come up that often. Went back to Elspeth because she can give +3/+3 and flying to your germ/equipment welder which sometimes just wins you the game. Elspeth's indestructable ultimate rately comes up but it is an advantage.

Spell Pierce - With all the combo around it might be good to run this as Flusterstorm really is at its best vs storm. Reanimator, Sneak and Show and other combo decks have enchantments and things not hit by Flusterstorm.

Sword of War and Peace (sideboard) - good in versus control since it gets past Linger Souls and Entreat the Angels angels + gains you some much needed life + is a faster clock vs combo. Feast and Famine does have the discard and untap features vs combo though.

Match up Analysis
Burn
Burn actually can be pretty miserable as it is difficult to get life gain going as they just burn your Mystic or creature you want to equip with Jitte. Bob actually is a liability in this match up as he loses you life. Fetch basics to take less damage from Price of Progress. Use discard/counters to protect your Mystic and get your life gain equipment going. If you can do this you might pull it out.
Sideboarding
-4 Dark Confidant -2 Thoughtseize
+1 Disenchant, +1 Duress, +1 Force of Will, +2 Flusterstorm, +1 Sword of Fire and Ice
Take out cards that lose you life and put in disenchant to deal with pillar and vortex along with discard and counters. Flusterstorm is pretty good when they hit you with Pyroblast or Red Blast.

Dredge
Game 1 is pretty miserable. Sometimes they come out really fast and kill you. Countering discard outlets and Breakthrough or Careful study to slow them down. If you can get out a fast Batterskull it can win the game. Getting Jitte to kill your own creature with to remove bridges might be the right play instead though. Game 2 gets much better though with Rest in Peace.
Sideboarding
-3 Force of Will, -2 Thoughtseize -1 Swords to Plowshares,
+2 Flusterstorm, +3 Rest in Peace, +1 Supreme Verdict
Take out card disadvantage and you really don't want to make them discard their dredges so that goes too. Flusterstorm because Dredge often only has 1 or two lands and as such it can counter Cabal Therapy, Dread Return or Breakthrough. Rest in Peace remove their graveyard and they need a Nature's Claim to deal with it and have to start over with an empty graveyard. I found that the Surgical Extraction was not good enough to deal with Dredge. You might want to leave Force of Will in on the Draw vs LED Dredge as they can come out pretty fast with Faithless Looting + LED.


Goblins
Baring fast unchallenged Lackey, this match up is decent if you can get Jitte/Batterskull online quickly. Fetch basics to not get wastelanded. Ports can be annoying. They have a hard time dealing with Jitte and Batterskull. Kill Lackey before it connects and use discard or counters on Ringleader/Seige Gang Commander because they have dangerous come into play abilities. Make sure they do not get an active Krenko since Krenko can kill you pretty quickly.
-3 Force of Will, -1 Jace the Mindsculptor
+1 Disenchant, +1 Supreme Verdict, +1 Sword of Fire and Ice, +1 Zealous Persecution
Take out card disadvantage force and a Jace because it can be tough to keep him alive. Bring in removal and Pro red kill a goblin + draw a card sword. In sideboard games beware of Ancient Grudge if they have green and only bring out Batterskull if you have mana to bounce it in response to their Grudge.

Enchantress
A good friend of mine insists on playing this and the match up can be pretty annoying if they draw well. Other times they draw no or only 1 Enchantress effect that you deal with and proceed to win. Enchantress is decent vs fair decks it just folds to combo fast. The match up really depends on if you can prevent them from getting Enchantress Presence/Enchantresses or Sylvan Library in play. If you can keep them off their draw enchantments and creatures you win. Elephant Grass is really annoying as your can be sitting there with a Bob or Batterskull and can't attack. Also really dislike Choke.
Sideboarding
-4 Swords to Plowshares, -2 Lingering Souls.
+1 Duress, +1 Force of Will, +1 Disenchant, +1 Perish, +1 Zealous Persecution
Take out Swords to Plowshares because it hits nothing. Force counters their draw effects. Disenchant gets rid of enchantments. Perish and Zealous Persecution kills Enchantresses. Graveyard hate might be worth bringing in for Replenish.


Elves Combo
The Budget versions are pretty favorable without black discard, Cradles and Natural Order. The 3 color is a bit rougher as it can go off pretty fast with disruption, Natural Order for Craterhoof and Gaea's Cradles. If
Sideboard
-1 Elspeth, -2 Lingering Souls, -1 Vindicate,
+1 Force of Will, +1 Perish, +1 Zealous Persecution, +1 Supreme Verdict
Take out all the slow stuff. You need counters for Glimpse and Natural Order so keep Force In and add the last one. Board wipes are pretty good. Flusterstorm might be worth bringing in versus the multi color version as they play many elves then natural order or Zenith.

Jund
This match up is pretty grindy with all their advantage cards. It can be fairly draw dependent if they get the nuts like multiple Bobs, Hymms or Bloodbraids you will just lose but other games you can deal with what they put out. Jam your Mystic out there turn 2 to check for that Bolt or Abrupt decay if they don't have it go to town with Batterskull as they don't have too many good answers for it.
Sideboarding
-2-3 Force of Will, -0-1 Snapcaster Mage
+1 Perish, +0-3 Rest in Peace (versus punishing fire version), +0-1 Sword of Feast and Famine (versus other versions), +1 Supreme Verdict

Maverick
Your plan is just to kill their creatures. Not as bad as RUG or Merfolk as they don't have counters/stifle or Islandwalk.
-3 Force of Will, -1 Jace the Mindsculptor,
+1 Disenchant, +1 Perish, +1 Supreme Verdict, +1 Zealous Persecution
Take out card disadvantage force. Bring in removal.
Disenchant for Jitte, Sylvan, Choke. Perish and Supreme Verdict just wipe their board. Zealous Persecution kills Mother of Runes and Thalia.

Merfolk
This match up got much better with Supreme Verdict to wipe their board. 8 Island Walk Lords is still pretty dangerous and the match up hinges on dealing with them. Fetch basics if possible to not get wastelanded and make sure not to run into Daze. Sometimes fetching Jitte or Sword of Fire and Ice instead of Batterskull may be correct if you have some Spirit tokens to give it to and you can use it along with your Swords to Plowshares to keep their board clear.
Sideboarding vs Merfolk
-3 Force of Will -1 Counterspell,
+1 Sword of Fire and Ice, +1 Supreme Verdict, +1 Disenchant, +1 Vendilion Clique
Take out the counters because of Vial and sometimes Cavern make the only things you can really counter Jitte, Standstill and Vial which you really don't want to 2 for 1 yourself for. Sword of Fire/Ice helps race or kill their creatures if they don't have more then 1 lord out and draws you answers. Supreme Verdict removes all their creatures. Disenchant is for Jitte/Vial. Vendilion Clique for more of a clock and another flying equipment welder. Humility would be nice if it resolves but 4 mana with 2 White can be hard to resolve vs wastelands and dazes. It does blank all their lords and but may be difficult to resolve. Not sure what I would board out for Humility if I were to board it in.

Stonblade Mirror
Dark Confidant really shines in this match up. Most builds don't run Bob, I do so if my Bob sticks and draws a few cards he simply wins the game.
-3 Force of Will, -1 Swords to Plowshares.
+1 Disenchant, +1 Duress, +1 V Clique, +1 Zealous Persecution
Take out card disadvantage Force of Will, Bring in answer to equipment, more discard and removal. I was boring in Surgical Extractions till I removed them from the board in favor of Rest in Peace. Save V Clique for when they search for equipment or if the haven't played anything in awhile to get information.

Reanimator
This actually is pretty miserable game 1 as you might not have kept the hand with disruption and they can go off pretty quick so you don't have much time to find it. My brother plays reanimator so I know. Game 2 gets much better with the combination of more disruption and Graveyard hate. Spell Pierce would actually help this match up as Flusterstorm doesn't hit Animate Dead.
Sideboarding
-1 Elspeth Knight Errant, -2 Lingering Souls, -4 Swords to Plowshares
+1 Duress, +1 Force of Will, +0-1 Humility, +2 Flusterstorm, +0-1 V Clique, +3 Rest in Peace, +1 Supreme Verdict
Take out slow anti small creature cards and bring in disruption and grave yard hate. If you know they are on the Show and Tell plan bring in Humility. Supreme Verdict pitches to Force and Reanimator doesn't go off as fast when faced with more disruption so the 4 mana uncounterable board wipe can save you.


RUG Tempo
Supreme Verdict made this match up a bit better. Its favorable if they do not have Stifles. It is actually pretty annoying if they have Stifles as you can get blown out by their mana denial or Stifle on Mystic. Versions without stifle are easier. Fetch basics to avoid wasteland. Kill their creatures.
Sideboarding
-3 Force of Will -1-2 Thoughtseize -0-1 Jace.
+1 Supreme Verdict, +1 Perish, +0-2 Flusterstorm +2-3 Rest in Peace
Take out card disadvantage forces and put in removal + Flusterstorm. Flusterstorm is more for versions with Stifle as getting blown out by it is terrible. Rest in Peace makes Tarmogoyf and Goose sad but it does nerf my own Lingering Souls and Snapcaster Mage. Might be worth the cost since I have Bob to draw cards and Snapcastering Brainstorm is one of Rugs advantage plays. After board you want to be wary of Ancient Grudge and Sulfur Elemental so make sure you keep 3 untaped to bounce your Batterskull and only bring out 2 Spirits at a time.


Sneak + Show
-1 Elspeth Knight Errant, -1 Dark Confidant -2 Lingering Souls -4 Swords to Plowshares, -1 Umezawa's Jitte,
+1 Disenchant +1 Duress +1 Force of Will, +2 Flusterstorm, +1 Humility, +1 Supreme Verdict, Sword of Feast and Famine, +1 Vendilion Clique,
Take out Elspeth + Linger Souls because its just too slow and Sword's to Plowshares as its useless vs Emrakul and if they have a Griselbrand in play they will likely see a counter in their 7-14 cards they draw. Jitte really doesn't do anything vs huge monsters.
Bring in Disenchant to hit Bloodmoon/Defense Grid/Leyline of Santity, more discard / counters. Humility is just good game if you drop it off their Show and Tell. Supreme Verdict can kill their monster if they are on the Show and Tell plan or pitches to force Sword of Feast and Famine lets you attack their hand and keep your mana untapped.

Storm
Sideboard
+1 Duress, +2 Flusterstorm, +1 Force of Will, +1 Vendillion Clique +1 Zealous Persecution
-1 Elspeth, -2 Lingering Souls -4 Swords to Plowshares
Take out slow stuff + creature removal, Bring in discard more counters and Graveyard hate for the IGG plan. Zealous Persecution is for the Goblin plan.

Team America ( BUG Tempo Aggro)
This match up is about surviving their disruption and not getting blown out by stifle, wasteland or Hymm to torach making you discard your lands. Fetch basics and be careful using fetchlands if they have mana up for stifle. Play around Daze. Dark Confidant is pretty good here for refilling your hand if it doesn't eat an Abrupt Decay. Snapcaster helps if you got some removal or cards hit by discard.
-3 Force of Will
+2 Flusterstorm, +1 Sword of Feast and Famine
You want to be able to deal with stifle and hymms without card disadvantage, Sword of Feast and Famine allows you to swing past Tarmogoyf and Tombstalker
Might be worth bringing in Rest in Peace to nerf their Goyfs and Tombstalkers but Abrupt Decay is a card and deciding what to cut is difficult.

Team America (BUG Control)
Really depends on their build as there are the Bob/Snapcaster versions and the Ancestral Visions/Shardless Agent Versions Either way your in for a grindy game.
Sideboard
-3 Force of Will
+0-1 Perish (vs shardless/tarmo versions), +1 Supreme Verdict, +1 Sword of Feast and Famine, +1-2 Rest in Peace
Force isn't too good in a grindy attrition game and having more removal for their creatures or just nerfing them is.
Rest in Peace is pretty good against them nerfing Tarmogoyf and making Deathrite Shamans 1/2 but Abrupt Decay is a card.

U/W miracles/Rest in Peace + Helm Combo.
Countertop makes this a very tough match up. Even just Top is bad because they get better card quality. Use discard to remove counterbalance if possible. You do have a shot if you can keep them from assembling Countertop. Dark Confidant if he lives can give you card advantage. The Rest in Peace version is even worse match up as it nerfs your Snapcasters and lingering souls and has the Helm combo.
Sideboarding
-4 Swords to Plowshares, -1 Stoneforge Mystic.
+1 Disenchant (vs helm combo), +1 Duress, +2 Flusterstorm, +1 Supreme Verdict (versus entreat the angels)

Recent tournies
(I saw alot of combo for this one and put two Spell Pierce in for 2 Bobs)
R1 vs white weenie
game 1 get a quick stoneforge batter skull with bob and deal with all his creatures + win, game 2 is a stall with humility out with my batterskull to his sword of light and shadow and I finally get disenchant and win.
2-0
R2 vs reanimator
game 1 lose as he combos turn 2 and I don't have a counter. game 2 win off thought seize into rest in peace game 3 we go to time with a rest in peace in play but didn't draw anything to actually win with
1-1-1
R3 omni tell
G1 I have the counterspell + pierce. G2 drop a humility off the show and tell :)
2-0
T4 dredge
Game 1 win off a stoneforge batterskull + EE. Game 2 Rest in Peace = GG
T2 omni tell again
Game 1 Thought Seize + counterspell and snapcaster on counter gets there. Game 2 I have the thoughtseize and he takes too long to recover get a Jace out and ultimate.
2-0

Running Top over ponder this time. 16 blue cards is a little low but Top was good the 3 times i saw it.
R1 Enchantress
Have to play my friend round 1 G1 I get a quick bob and vindicate his enchantress presese and win off the card advantage, have the force for his replenish almost kill myself with bob because of elephant grass though drew the force off bob. G2 Perish kills his two enchantresses and he doesn't recover
R2 merfolk
R1 Super germ batterskull + jitte gets there R2 I manage to keep him off island walk lords but we have a stall with my batterskull and his coral helm commander + 1 lord. sword of fire and ice solves that problem eventually.
R3 Storm
Have to play another friend R1 He wins turn 2 after probing me that I had nothing. R2 I have force and fluster storm, then throw out a Jace. R3 Hit his tutor with discard, and get a bob on turn 1 holding up 1 for flusterstorm and win off bob.
R4 Stoneblade but he is running U/W
I have bob he doesn't. G1 Cavern of souls + Bob is great. He had a spellsnare and daze in hand no plows. G2 he kills my bob but my stoneforge goes unanswered.
Top 8
Jund
G1 get out a bob and he draws me a few cards before dying to an abrupt decay cascade off a bloodbraid but that gets me far enough ahead followed by a supreme verdict. G2 bob bites the abrupt decay bullet so I can get a stoneforge which gets batterskull and I put a sword of feast and famine on the germ and go right past his goyf
Top 4
We split

@ Kirika: Cool try of integrating Dark Confidant in the Esper shell, while I personally don't like it I can see it having it's merits.

You seem to board out FoW quite often, which seems not quite right to me. I would surely board in the 4th Force against Dredge (boarding out Jace) because it's so important to stop their first turn plays and you never wan't to tap out turn 4 for Jace against this deck. Against Goblins on the draw, Force seems to be nice maindeck material aswell, netting you 4 more turn 1 answers to Lackey (+ Swords to Plowshares) or Vial.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kirika

-snip-

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Some questions i have though, you play dark confidant but you play even more 3 and 4 cc spells as miost standard Stoneblade lists. Wouldn't it be better to trim down some of those to make BoB less dangerous? Why do you find surgical extraction to be nderwhelming against dredge? you don't have to hit their dredgers, if you hittheir bridges and narcomoeba's they simply can't win. Manaless dredge is indeed ore resistant to surgical extraction, but keeping your extractions for the right time shuts down dredge completely.

Was it really necessary to Quote the whole Report just 4 a simple question which could have been asked and adressed by "@username:"?

This thread has been terrible lately.

Right now the strongest reason I can see to not play black is you get to fully leverage Rest in Peace out of the board. That card is a serious house against a lot of decks.

@zerzab11
I run Confidant Control in vintage Esper Bomberman or Grixis so I really like the card advantage of dark confidant.

Vs Dredge I can see leaving Force in possibly on the Draw and taking out a Jace or Elspeth. I don't like the card disadvantage if I'm not up against Combo that wins on the spot. On the play I'd rather have Spell Peirce and Flusterstorm or take the risk. The Faithless Looting, Dredger, LED hands don't come up that often.

The Goblins decks I see have Cavern of Souls so I tend to take out Force since it is card disadvantage and Cavern trumps it. Force might be good to leave in if they do not have Cavern though. How do you board vs goblins?

@AEnesidem
Esper bomberman plays about the same with Trinket Mages, Tinker, Jace, Force. You have trinket mage for top in vintage and games are generally shorter but you have life gain with batter skull + jitte so it balances out. I do sometimes die to Bob but the risk is worth it.

You really need 2 Extractions to put dredge away. Just getting Bridge slows them down but Nacros, ichroid + Dread return still are threats. Rest in Peace removes everything and if they don't have the removal for it just wins.

@Malakai
I find Dark Confidant is the primary reason to run Black. Card advantage wins games. Targeted discard can be dodged by Brainstorm and doesn't stop top decks but is still worth running to give you information and they don't always have Brainstorm or top deck well. Rest in Peace does nerf your Snapcaster Mages and Lingering Souls but it stops Dredge and Reanimator and Loam cold. It is good vs Goyf, Knight, Deathrite decks but Abrupt decay is a card.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Malakai

This thread has been terrible lately.

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care to explain?

Quote:

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The "maybe you played badly" thing wasn't personal. I just wanted to clarify that is an option too. I'm not using that to refuse all your arguments. I didn't mean to be impolite.
On the body count, ok if you have moorland haunt and elspeth it's a lot better already but it was a pretty common problem for UW to have too few bodies. I don't know if you've tested against decks with lots of removal like miracles, mirror, punishing jund etc.. but i think you'll notice your lack of threats there to stick a jitte or sword on. I am maybe biased because i love lingering souls so much, but it reinforces all the fair matchups. It makes sure jace is protected, it can overwhelm an opponent, carry a jitte, act as a fog over several turns etc... It just fixes so many problems and it's not rare to see the game change completely once i cast L-souls. Lingering souls is so multifunctional and good in this deck that i can't imagine ever cutting it (except in a combo meta). SFM's and snapcasters end up crashing into the opponent's creatures anyway when they cary a jitte while L-souls can fly over. This makes a huge difference.

The targeted discard requires knowledge too. You need to know what cards are important for them, what their good cards are against you. Besides that, the discard helps you to counter better because you know what your opponent is holding. Having to keep counter mana open all the time means you need to play more defensively especially against combo where you want a clock. Discard helps you be more agressive without dropping the disruption. Maybe you counter tightly and know what you do, but you'll always be forced in that reactive defensive position of holding mana open. I don't think that being good at countering things and knowing legacy decks is an excuse for not playing discard. You can be as talented in countering things as you want, but at the end of the day, being able to disrupt in different ways, gaining more information for your counters and dismantling opponent's hands on turn 1 is still better.
There's no discussion on the information both decks have though. You have clique, maybe 3 copies of it that you can drop starting from turn 3. Esper has 4 discard spells and often a single V-clique, this means they get information starting from turn 1, exactly when you want that info. Starting with a discard spell is so strong because it can completely dismantle the hand the opponent kept, especially if their plan involves key cards. Having info on their ways to deal with jace before dropping jace is strong but not nearly as strong as seeing the opponent's hand as early as turn 1, figure out their plan and take away key elements of that plan.
I think Esper is the better jace deck. The discard makes it more probable to drop jace on turn 4 without resistance, lingering souls protects jace like a boss and makes sure he survives to get in the safe zone or guarantee 1-2 activations. Overall, esper has an easier time sticking and protecting jace. It's IMO also the better snapcaster deck. Snappy has more targets here and is more flexible and powerful because of that. He can not only beextra counters or removal here but can also rip your opponent's hand apart.

The chance i didn't play UW as it should be is quite real. But when i look at all th eoptions both decks have and the strong plays they have, i can't help it to conclude esper is stronger. It's more flexible. It attacks from different angles which makes playing around it harder for your opponent. It has more backup for its key spells: easier jitte connection, better jace protection, more snapcaster ammo. It's better at being proactive and agressive when needed. It has lingering souls which is extremely good against anything fair and has more post-board disruption against unfair decks.

That is my opinion anyways, and sorry if this post is chaotic but i'm having a terrible hangover.

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Ok I can get behind of most of what you say in here. In that case I think I will just remake esper (probably Vidi's list in last SCG, and figure out what I am not doing right (I probably am stuck in playing this deck like I play u/w, and die horrible deaths when I go for the reactive play plan), and see what happens after that.still not a fan of single discard spells (probably because I won so many game against opponents who rely on them, back when I was playing storm), but I can see where I probably am failing to play them correctly in this deck.

Thank you for your time btw, I appreciate!!

Guys, can we please stop mindlessly quoting walls of text? Either cut out sentences you're refering to or highlight passages with bolded text. It's a torture to read through 3000 words just to find the 2 sentences you actually wanted to quote

It's the second time today in this thread and it really harms the discussion flow