[Deck] bUrg Tempo

Do you have any success with it? against Pile you should be good, because of shroud but i fear that this creaturebase gets problems with the not so common MUs because Mungooses are a lil bit slow. I am testing a Goyf-Version with Snapcasters to compete with the 4c Decks and two Bitterblossom in the SB as additional Threads. Goyf is soooo good against the Grixis-Delver Mirror and im playin Strixes in the SB to get my goyfs bigger then Angler.

4 DRS
4 Delver
4 Goyf
3 Snapcaster
the 16 blue spells
3 Pierce ( maybe a split with Snare/Counterspell is better)
4 Bolt
3 additional Removal Spells (not sure if 3 Decays are needed)

19 Land

SB: 3 Strix 2 Blossom 2 Red Blast 2 Surgical 2 Flusterstorm 1 Grudge 1 Forked Bolt 2 Golgari Charm


It looks good because its really streamlined. Im not sure if this is enough to beat the 4c Decks.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by blablub

Do you have any success with it? against Pile you should be good, because of shroud but i fear that this creaturebase gets problems with the not so common MUs because Mungooses are a lil bit slow. I am testing a Goyf-Version with Snapcasters to compete with the 4c Decks and two Bitterblossom in the SB as additional Threads. Goyf is soooo good against the Grixis-Delver Mirror and im playin Strixes in the SB to get my goyfs bigger then Angler.

4 DRS
4 Delver
4 Goyf
3 Snapcaster
the 16 blue spells
3 Pierce ( maybe a split with Snare/Counterspell is better)
4 Bolt
3 additional Removal Spells (not sure if 3 Decays are needed)

19 Land

SB: 3 Strix 2 Blossom 2 Red Blast 2 Surgical 2 Flusterstorm 1 Grudge 1 Forked Bolt 2 Golgari Charm


It looks good because its really streamlined. Im not sure if this is enough to beat the 4c Decks.

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Hey blablub!

Yeah I've had some success with the list. I went to a really small weekly on my first go with the deck (same list I posted but with a 2nd Dismember over the 2nd Preordain and +1 Tormod's Crypt in the SB over a Leo) and it went well:

2-0 Manaless Dredge
2-0 Lands
2-1 Merfolk

I knew the guy on manaless Dredge so I had a big advantage going into the matchup. He punted G2 that he should have won. Manaless Dredge is a rough matchup for us. The 6 shroud creatures were amazing against Lands and I felt like I couldn't possibly lose if I kept making land drops. G2 my opponent got utterly dominated. Merfolk was very hard as my creatures have no fat and the 2 Dismembers did cost me 6 life per game. I was lucky the guy was new to Legacy because I don't think I would have made it without his missplays.

After this tournament I went to a 25ish player weekly tournament with a couple of changes to the deck (-1 TNN, -1 Dismember(down to 1), +2 Goyf main, -1 Leo (down to 0), -1 Crypt, +1 TNN, +1 Cage side). It went as follows:

2-0 Jeskai Stoneblade
2-1 Team America
2-1 Junk Nic Fit with Dark Depths
2-0 Esper MentorBlade with Thopter Combo

Good news is I tied for first place. Jeskai stumbled on mana G1 with the wrong basics. G2 I dominated him with a pair of Mongoose and the right answers. Team America is an abysmal matchup as they have bigger threats and better removal. I won my games off of Wasteland and timely counters with removal and managed to ride a Mongoose/TNN. G3 I won with 3 Wastes and dug for a Loam. I think I was incredibly lucky not to see a single Hymn and the game that I lost was definitely due to a Goyf and Delver overload with counter backup that my double Mongeese hand couldn't handle. I punted twice G1 against Nic Fit because I was chatting too much but I got my serious face on for G2-3 and I won G3 almost entirely on the back of Cage. I got a Delver opener with Daze and Waste in the last round and took G1. G2 was tight but I manage to race Thopter/Sword/Jitte for exactsies with a Delver, a TNN, and a DRS.

Overall Mongoose was good but not great. More TNN would have been similar as I did not face any Czech Pile (the only other 4-0 players were on Czech Pile/Team America). There are 2 Team America players in my meta I have to watch out for and Mongoose is not where I want to be unless I am packing a heavy removal package. It's interesting to note that DRS and Mongoose go well together as I haven't run into any GY tension. Also, in a DRS deck, Mongoose comes alive at about the same time a TNN would land so Mongoose's main purpose is as additional TNN copies unless you are playing an extremely "low-to-the-ground" approach where you always want mana open even when you cast threats (Stifle, Snares). TNN was boarded in for every matchup! Goyf is cool but so lackluster against anything that isn't Delver.dec with Bolt as its main removal, Burn, and Chalice aggro. The playstyle of small-shroud-creatures tempo vs. big-creature tempo is more about saving counters for big creatures and letting removal slide rather than countering removal and removing creatures. Also, I was hesitant at first with the pair of Decays main but I've decided to adopt them because they would always be sided in anyways. I don't like multiple Dismembers and Fatal Push is overkill on removal if I pack Edicts in the SB for TNN/Gurmags/Marrit Lage as well as Decays in the SB for Moons and Equipments. I think the most important takeaway from this experiment is that I would have been better off with something like 2 Delve creatures and 3 TNN as my 5 shroud creatures rather than 4 Mongoose and 1 TNN. Decay is also a valuable tool in my meta and the main reason for me to splash green.

On to your deck:

I think 4 Goyf is too many. I really appreciate the card when it is good but I find that Goyf only really shines against very specific decks where the creatures are smaller than Goyf and the removal doesn't hit Goyf (Grixis Delver, Burn, UR Delver, and various Chalice Stompy decks). Goyf is terrible against every dedicated control deck in the format because all of their removal hits it at a tempo loss for us (Grixis Ctrl, Czech Pile, Blade). Unfortunately, Goyf has been outclassed by Gurmag and Stalker as far as GY-abusing fat vanilla threats by virtue of their immunity to Push and Decay on top of Bolt. For these reasons I don't like to play more than 2-3 copies of Goyf. If you do insist on playing Goyf, I suggest a Seal of Fire or Dead Weight mainboard or sideboard if you want your Goyfs to outsize Gurmags. Seal and Weight, unlike Strix, cannot be exiled by DRS. I don't think Gurmag is common enough to go to such lengths to deal with it though. I find that a few Edicts, counterspells, and a reliable clock gets there. Also, any amount of Strix in the SB will deal with all of the matchups where Goyf shines. Strix is the most powerful roadblock to any aggressive legacy deck out there.

3 Snapcasters for a Delver deck is not something I am fond of, especially if your targets include Dismember, Decay, and Counterspell which are all too expensive to flashback. I always found TNN to be more reliable as I don't want to be the one fighting for card advantage when my opponent is playing Snap, Strix and KCommand. Card advantage is a battle we cannot win against these decks. Think about it, we play the same deck except that they ditch the Delvers for Strixes and the soft counters and wastes for more removal and more lands... a couple of TNN mainboard will give you more grinding potential than 3 Snapcasters I can assure you. The upside of Snap is having additional threats that don't get sided out (ever) against combo decks. I simply find that having Snaps doesn't do enough to improve my combo matchups compared to what TNN does to improve my aggro and control matchups. Note that this is coming from a guy who really dislikes TNN as a card and loves everything about Snapcaster.

Spell Pierce is a great card but has some serious overlap with Daze and FoW against non-blue aggro decks. I personally don't like playing more than 1-2 copies unless I expect a lot of control and combo decks (especially fast ones). I agree with you that a single Snare or Counterspell would be more desirable than a 3rd Pierce. Spell Snare is very good right now against all the Strix/Snap control decks, especially if you intend on taking the Goyf route.

While Blossom is a great card right now against all of the control decks, it is seriously limited by a few factors. Multiples are garbage because of the life cost, and the card is extremely narrow in application when compared to its main alternative: TNN. I think Blossom is a great addition as a singleton SB card against control decks given that you are already saturated in TNN. TNN is simply more reliable against all of the aggro decks in the format while also being as devastating as Blossoms against the premier control decks.

For the slots you proposed in your deck I would do something like this:

4 DRS (core)
4 Delver (core)
2-3 Goyf (fast threat that gives you an edge against aggressive decks and a cheap clock that won't need to be replaced against combo. Terrible against control)
2-3 TNN (best top-of-curve threat. Backbreaking against everything non-combo.)
1-2 Gurmag (better version of Goyf and pseudo TNN against a lot of matchups)

4 Bolts
2-3 Abrupt Decay
0-1 Dismember
1 Spell Snare/Counterspell (Snare if you play a Badlands/Taiga. Counterspell if you play only blue duals)
2 Spell Pierce

Perhaps a Preordain over the 3rd removal or 3rd counter would be desirable as you only have 4 Ponders to enable Sorcery for Goyf. Cantrips are never dead cards, they are great at feeding DRS and Delve creatures, and 9 Cantrips is the magic number for the best odds of having exactly 1 copy in your opener... Just sayin'

Going forward I think a TNN and Gurmag/Stalker combination with no more than a few Goyfs is where I want to be. I would gladly play a Team America deck forfeiting green for red with Bolts, Hymns, Stalkers and TNNs but I don't think I am ready to give up on Decays yet and playing it all is unrealistic. Loam and Golgari Charm as SB singletons are also difficult to give up on as they shore up so many of our weaknesses.

Let me know of your experiences with the deck as I am really looking into optimizing it again.

Well the decision Pro Goyf was an argument for my Meta because unfortunatly there are a lot of budget choices. Otherwise you are correct with your points i guess. If you have problems with your Mongoose-Build against TA try some Snares i would say.

If you cut Mongoose and go for 2 Angler 3 Nemesis or something like that you have the Friedman-List which is a little bit slower and then you have the same problem which you mentioned towards my Snapcasters. You try to grind against a deck which will do this allways better

its really complicated for delver at moment i think :(

Quote:

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Originally Posted by blablub

Well the decision Pro Goyf was an argument for my Meta because unfortunatly there are a lot of budget choices. Otherwise you are correct with your points i guess. If you have problems with your Mongoose-Build against TA try some Snares i would say.

If you cut Mongoose and go for 2 Angler 3 Nemesis or something like that you have the Friedman-List which is a little bit slower and then you have the same problem which you mentioned towards my Snapcasters. You try to grind against a deck which will do this allways better

its really complicated for delver at moment i think :(

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First thank you for your insight. It is indeed complicated for Delver decks, which is why it is interresting. ;)

Concerning Snares against TA, I am not convinced it is the best I could do for the matchup. Drawing a reactive answer to Hymn or Goyf isn't exactly stellar when the damage has already been done. They only have Goyf and Hymn that can be Snared and that's not enough for my taste. If anything I see drawing extra cards (Strix, Truths, Snap) as a better way to fight Hymn. Sticking with Mongoose means I need answers to Goyf and DRS so that screams for Push/Decay. Playing Snap and Push mainboard sounds like a reasonable way to keep playing Mongoose in that matchup. I also like the Gurmag approach because Gurmag is a virtual TNN/Mongoose in a lot of matchups and also acts as a Goyf in other matchups. Team America is one of those matchups where Gurmag is both a supergoyf and a Mongoose at the same time (AKA: a really good answer/plan). If Goyf was Mongoose's only road block I would gladly be packing additional removal and Snaps. However, opposing Gurmags and Batterskull are also relevant threats that Mongoose doesn't trump and that packing Gurmag and more TNN actually do.

About the Friedman configuration, I think playing at least 2 Gurmags and 2 TNN main with an extra Blossom/TNN SB is an attempt to preserve that 5-6 Mongoose configuration against the premiere control decks of the meta. I also believe it is the most sensible approach as well because those are arguably the best threats in the format at the moment. To assess your point about the slowness of this configuration I would add that you can always speed it up by throwing 2-3 Goyfs in the mix for a total of 14-15 threats. It is important to note that Mongoose is incredibly passive, comes down later and is smaller than Gurmag. Therefore it is much less aggressive. Also, there are plenty of TNN line of plays that are very aggressive. Here's a fairly common scenario: play a T1 DRS that gets bolted, a T2 cantrip to fix your land drops and bolt their delver/drs, and a T3 TNN with Daze/FoW backup is effectively giving you an unmanageable clock on an empty board. Who cares what removal or counters your opponent draws anymore. Now that's aggression even though it occured typically late by Legacy standards.

Finally, grinding against control decks is inevitable. If we could reliably prevent our opponents from playing lands, we would win against every deck that plays fetches and duals. The axis on which we grind is what's relevant for us. Delver and DRS are setting the tone and require our opponents playing the fair game to pack a critical mass of efficient answers (Pushes, Bolts, Swords and Strixes). The more copies they play, the less our DRS and Delver get to have an impact. The control decks win with raw card advantage and don't get to rest until we are in topdeck mode with an empty board. Goyf and Snap are not only underwhelming in this matchup by virtue of their impact for the mana cost (Push or Strix against Goyf), but most importantly they play right into our opponent's gameplan. Our strength in this matchup comes from their complete lack of pressure and reliance on reactive spells. All we need to do is play threats that require very specific answers (2-3 copies of edicts and deluge for TNN vs. 10+ generic answers to Goyf/Snap). That way we effectively cut their hard-earned card advantage in half and focus our disruption on their limited answers. TNN is obviously the best threat we could wish for as it simply demands a wrath or an edict. Mongoose shines here because you can play a full playset and the same kind of impact as TNN minus Strix resillience. Gurmag is more or less the same but requires a heavier Deluge or a Jace bounce while also being more relevant in aggro matchups. Goyf is literally only resistant to Bolt so his relevance in this matchup is very low. As for Snap in control matchups, I have found his main utility is to flashback cantrips to dig for those resillient threats or a way to protect them while also acting as an edict cushion. Snap is not a threat but merely an expensive super cantrip.

As I've mentionned in my first post as of late, I was previously playing a 5c Domain Zoo deck with 4 DRS, 4 Delver, 4 Nacatl, 2 Mandrills, 2 Snaps, 4 Bolts, 4 Tribal Flames. While I loved this configuration, it had some obvious strengths and glarimg weaknesses. This deck was very aggressive and would rarely connect more than once or twice against Czech Pile, even with the nuttiest starts. The matchup was not bad by any means as I would regularly draw into 13-16 points of direct damage in a grindy match and I had my share of KCommands in the SB. What baffled me was that I had to change my 2 Snaps for 2 TNN because 12 aggressive 1drops and 2 Mandrills wasn't aggressive/resillient enough to break through their defenses without Wastelands of my own to make them struggle. My weakness to Blood Moon (against Blade and Grixis), Wasteland, and my inability to deal with opposing lands is what drove me to tone the aggression down and settle on 4c. I will definitely go back one day as Tribal Flames is a serious Legacy card with untapped potential!

[Former RUG then 4c Delver player pre-Top Ban]

Posting this here as I think it's relevant to the current discussion and there is no real place to discuss BUG tempo.

I've found the best way to fight the Control decks currently are to try and go under them with a mana-denial package based around Stifle with 4+ 1cmc answers to DRS. Unfortunately I've found both Goyf and Mongoose underwhelming with TKS and Gurmag being very prevalent in my meta and have moved to a TNN/Gurmag/Leo threat package. List for reference:

[edit Oct 10 - trying Snare and a 2nd Dismember]

Instant (25)
1x Abrupt Decay
4x Brainstorm
4x Daze
2x Dismember
3x Fatal Push
4x Force of Will
2x Spell Pierce
1x Spell Snare
4x Stifle

Sorcery (4)
4x Ponder

Creature (13)
4x Deathrite Shaman
4x Delver of Secrets
2x Gurmag Angler
1x Leovold, Emissary of Trest
2x True-Name Nemesis

Land (18)
4x Misty Rainforest
2x Tropical Island
4x Underground Sea
4x Verdant Catacombs
4x Wasteland

Sideboard (15)
1x Diabolic Edict
1x Grafdigger's Cage
1x Hydroblast
1x Invasive Surgery
1x Life from the Loam
1x Liliana, the Last Hope
1x Marsh Casualties
1x Null Rod
1x Pithing Needle
2x Surgical Extraction
1x Sylvan Library
3x Thoughtseize

There's a heavy reliance on Spell Pierce in this shell as your answer to Jace & LoTV plus keeping opponents off cantrips early to fix their mana. Stifle interaction into slamming a Leovold to turn off their cantrips is almost always game over. Loam does a lot of work out of the side for the matchups where your Wastelands are key.

The mana base is extremely stable with 4 USeas and every land casting DRS. I really like this type of stability against other Wasteland decks.

The biggest miss here from 4C is actually Pyroblast. I've found Fatal Push and Dismember to be enough 1cmc interaction with the board that the only time I miss Bolt is to take out a planeswalker.

I dont quite understand your reasoning when you present a 4 Stifle/3 Pierce list as a good choice for a Gurmag/TKS meta after stating that Goyf is underwhelming. TKS is generally found in stompy decks against which Stifle and Pierce are subpar cards and in which Goyf shines. Gurmag is generally found in tempo decks against which Goyf is pretty reliable. Relying on timely Pierce and Stifles also means you need to be reactive and that your threats have to be squeezed into play as quickly as possible rather than by taping out on T3+.

It seems to me like your list decided to forego Bolts and red SB options in favor of Decay and Leo. I think that any Stifle list (especially 4) wants to hover around 6ish 1 mana removal spells in order to have 1 mana removal availlable within the first cantrip of the match because a single DRS will invalidate half of tour gameplan. Given a meta that expects control decks as well as lots of Tempo and Stompy decks, I would tone down on the Stifles and Pierces, maybe rethink Goyf as a main reason to play green, and definitely look into an additional Dismember mainboard and perhaps a pair of Strixes main or side. As blablub mentionned, Strix pairs nicely with Goyf and shits on Stompy and Tempo decks.

Appreciate the response.

I see Gurmag mostly from the omnipresent 4c Pile / Grixis lists with endless Fatal Push, Strix and snap casters. Very few tempo players around outside of myself. Plus I’ve found my own Zombie Fish tend to hinder how big goyfs are. I love goyf and have played them for years but they simply were bad too often.

Strix and Goyf IMO really play better in a tap out shell with discard as your early interaction, not stifle / pierce. Different play patterns for sure.

The second dismember is definitely worth considering, ty.

Hi,

Following all the great arguments above, I would likely play the following list soon:

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
2 Tarmogoyf
3 True-Name Nemesis
1 Gurmag Angler

4 Ponder
1 Preordain

4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
1 Spell Snare
2 Spell Pierce
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Dismember

4 Wasteland
2 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
1 Volcanic Island
1 Badlands
4 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest (should/could be tarns)

Sideboard

2 Surgical Extraction
2 Flusterstorm
2 Pyroblast
2 Diabolic Edict??
2 Kolaghan's Command
1 Golgari Charm
1 Dead Weight
1 Life from the Loam
1 Pithing Needle
1 Grafdiggers' Cage

The preordain could be a Thoughtseize or a 2nd Gurmag, but I don't think we need that second Gurmag or Preordain can help search for the correct answer.

I saw you discussing about going up to 3 abrupt decays. I think it's not a bad idea. The reason I only have 2 is because I couldn't squeeze the 3rd in and a Dismember is a 1 CMC removal when you really need it, plus it handles Reality SMashers, TKS, Anglers, and the things that decay or bolt would handle.

Played one Dismember a long time in a Dark Thresh build and I was always happy to see it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Xod

Hi,

Following all the great arguments above, I would likely play the following list soon:

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
2 Tarmogoyf
3 True-Name Nemesis
1 Gurmag Angler

4 Ponder
1 Preordain

4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
1 Spell Snare
2 Spell Pierce
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Dismember

4 Wasteland
2 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
1 Volcanic Island
1 Badlands
4 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest (should/could be tarns)

Sideboard

2 Surgical Extraction
2 Flusterstorm
2 Pyroblast
2 Diabolic Edict??
2 Kolaghan's Command
1 Golgari Charm
1 Dead Weight
1 Life from the Loam
1 Pithing Needle
1 Grafdiggers' Cage

The preordain could be a Thoughtseize or a 2nd Gurmag, but I don't think we need that second Gurmag or Preordain can help search for the correct answer.

I saw you discussing about going up to 3 abrupt decays. I think it's not a bad idea. The reason I only have 2 is because I couldn't squeeze the 3rd in and a Dismember is a 1 CMC removal when you really need it, plus it handles Reality SMashers, TKS, Anglers, and the things that decay or bolt would handle.

Played one Dismember a long time in a Dark Thresh build and I was always happy to see it.

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You are very close to my current 4c list. I play the 2nd Gurmag over the 3rd TNN main and I have a Blossom/3rd TNN in the SB. Everything else is the same except that I alternate between Snare, Counterspell, and a 3rd Goyf. My SB is slightly different.

I think Gurmag is the best creature for the most matchups after DRS and Delver with Goyf and TNN being more polarized. With that in mind I want to maximize Gurmag at the expense of Goyf and TNN.

I don't like Thoughtseize at all mainboard but I like it SB. I will take any form of counterspell over TS main because we are a tempo deck at our core. Spending mana to remove a card our opponent has not paid any mana for is a loss of tempo. TS is also a terrible topdeck that doesn't pitch to FoW and always costs life. As a SB card TS is more reasonable because it diversifies our disruption suite against combo decks and acts as a filler card against other decks. The fact that it requires black mana on T1 means we have far less access to it compared to a blue soft counter, which is why I don't play TS in my SB currently. In the advent of a rise in combo and a decrease in control decks, I would gladly add TS in my SB but never MD.

Preordain is my favorite filler card when I play 2-3 Goyfs because it's a Sorcery that I will never side out and that virtually expands my SB.

I am sure you are aware of that but Tarn is just like Misty except that it also fetches Badlands. Just clarifyin'

As much as I love KCommand, I find it to be narrow in application and difficult to rely on with only 2 red sources. I think 2 Decays main with 1 KCommand and a Needle SB is enough to handle any artifact deck. If I wanted another similar effect I would prioritize something like Ancient Grudge that pairs with Loam and comes down on T2 against Chalice. Grudge is a more reliable answer to artifacts as well so you can count on it for equipments and strixes. If I want more grind, Blossom and TNN is where I want to be.

Dead Weight is dead weight as a SB card with only 2 Goyfs. The card is already questionnable with 4 Goyfs. There are better options out there.

Here is my 4c template:


4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
2-3 Tarmogoyf
2 True-Name Nemesis
2 Gurmag Angler

4 Lightning Bolt
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Dismember

0-1 Spell Snare/Counterspell
2 Spell Pierce
4 Daze
4 Force of Will

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
1 Preordain

4 Wasteland
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
1 Badlands
//SB
0-2 Thoughtseize
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Flusterstorm
2 Pyroblast
2 Diabolic Edict
1-2 Golgari Charm
1 Kolaghan's Command
0-1 Ancient Grudge
1 Life from the Loam
0-1 Pithing Needle
0-1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Bitterblossom/True-Name Nemesis

Hello to my few fellow Burgers. Here is a small report of yesterday's weekly:

I played the list I posted above with 3 Goyf and 0 Snare and a slightly different SB. Here is the SB, how it went, and my reasoning behind some choices.


3 Thoughtseize
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Pyroblast
2 Diabolic Edict
2 Golgari Charm
2 Kolaghan's Command
1 Life from the Loam


2-0 vs. Grixis Control (lost roll)

G1 We have empty hands except he has more lands and I have a Gurmag and Goyf. He topdecks Gurmag and Snap into Push while I get lands and Daze. He mounts a comeback at 4 life with snaps while I draw blanks with a Bolt in hand. On my last turn I topdeck a Brainstorm and find the second Bolt for the win.
G2 Gurmag with soft counters and Dismember get there.

I didn't get to play any TNN but Gurmag, Dismember, and Pierce did a lot of work in this matchup. Special thanks to Bolt for the comeback.

2-0 vs. Team America (won roll)

G1 I get a controlling hand with soft counters, a Wasteland, removal and cantrips. I Pierce a Ponder and Waste. Remove a threat, dig into another Waste and counter another cantrip. He is land screwed so I keep digging and find a Gurmag and another Waste with some Daze backup to seal the game.

G2 he gets an early Sylvan Library with DRS, Delver and Goyf start. I get Waste Loam going but I am under too much pressure to Waste more than twice. I deal with some threats while mine get dealt with as well. I build up 5 lands in play and 3 in hand and eventually find a Gurmag that puts a stop to his assault after being at 4 life from paying 12 with Library. He missplays his sequence with Decay and Lily to get Gurmag off the board and Gurmag takes it home.

Again, Gurmag did most of the lifting as the biggest removal-proof creature. At this point I am sold on the 2 Gurmags. Special thanks to Loam for cushioning an Hymn and clearing bad Delver flips. I was happy to see both Edicts in this game as well.

1-2 UR Delver (lost roll)

G1 I put him on Grixis Delver after T1 Volc Delver. I open with a fetch while holding Volc, Badlands, Delta, Force, Delver, Boltx2, Decay (first missplay). I choose to save Delver for FoW and prepare a T2 Decay on Delver while saving my 2 Bolts. When he flips Thunderous Wrath off Delver and puts me to 11. I smack my head for not being able to fetch a red source (both in hand). I Decay Delver next turn and he lays a Stormchaser that I decide not to FoW (second missplay). I Bolt it EoT, he Dazes for prowess. On my turn I bolt, he Dazes again for prowess. I have 2 Delvers that refuse to flip while Stor chaser takes my last 4 points of life in 3 swings.

Bad fetching sequence cost me a game here.

G2 I open double DRS and have removal/counters for anything significant he can do Gurmag takes it home with 21 life.

G3 He opens double Delver with Swiftspear and double Daze with PoP and Dismember. I try to stabilize but I get nutted on.

2-0 vs. Parfait (lost roll)

G1 I Decay Land Tax and he never gets a 3rd land.

G2 I have too many answers ro anythinf he can throw. Too many counters, Decays, Charms, KCommand and Thoughtseize after I side out my Gurmags and Wastelands.

I played no TNN during that event and Goyf didn't do much. My reasoning for the SB going into this event was that I wanted to try something streamlined. Basically I chose cards that affected the most matchups (3rd Surgical > Cage, 2nd KCommand > Blossom/Grudge, 3 TS > Fluster/Needle).

Going forward I will perhaps rethink Goyf. I am thinking about a way to incorporate a 3rd Gurmag and/or 3rd TNN over Goyfs.

Good to see you are doin well :)

i have just cutted the one mana Counterspells at the moment for grindy cards, found that online and i like it

4 Delver
4 DRS
4 Goyf
2 Snap
4 Daze
4 Force
4 Ponder
4 BS
4 Bolt
3 Decay
1 Loam
2 Painful Truth
1 Library
19 Lands

Played against 4c Pile a lil bit and it looks even. But i agree with you, i want to have some Anglers and i will go with +2 Angler -1 Goyf -1 Snapcaster, Truths and Loam are so awesome at the Moment, it feels like you can't loose if you resolve one of these. Obviously i guess the Combo MUs are really bad but there are simply no Combo-Players in my Meta except a small amount of Sneak/Show which i can attack via Sideboard.

I have no SB at the moment because i can't decide how much cards i wanna bring in against Chech-Pile. Sometimes a Force or a Daze on the right spell wins too. What is your boarding-plan in General against these Controldecks?

Otherwise i think Goyf is still good in the Fatal Push MUs. He's 5/6 or even bigger which puts them onto a very fast clock so they need the Answer asap or they get into Bolt-Range. But as I said i wanna play Gurmags because of Push-Proof. Im not a Fan of Nemesis at the Moment. It feels like nobody wants to loose to this card so everyone is prepaired.

Another Thing is that i want to test Liliana,Last Hope in the Main (maybe for Library and one Truth) because it looks so awesome on paper. It works fine against Strix and should win against Elfes and D/T if you are able to cast it, your K.Commands seems interesting as well :)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by blablub

Good to see you are doin well :)

i have just cutted the one mana Counterspells at the moment for grindy cards, found that online and i like it

4 Delver
4 DRS
4 Goyf
2 Snap
4 Daze
4 Force
4 Ponder
4 BS
4 Bolt
3 Decay
1 Loam
2 Painful Truth
1 Library
19 Lands

Played against 4c Pile a lil bit and it looks even. But i agree with you, i want to have some Anglers and i will go with +2 Angler -1 Goyf -1 Snapcaster, Truths and Loam are so awesome at the Moment, it feels like you can't loose if you resolve one of these. Obviously i guess the Combo MUs are really bad but there are simply no Combo-Players in my Meta except a small amount of Sneak/Show which i can attack via Sideboard.

I have no SB at the moment because i can't decide how much cards i wanna bring in against Chech-Pile. Sometimes a Force or a Daze on the right spell wins too. What is your boarding-plan in General against these Controldecks?

Otherwise i think Goyf is still good in the Fatal Push MUs. He's 5/6 or even bigger which puts them onto a very fast clock so they need the Answer asap or they get into Bolt-Range. But as I said i wanna play Gurmags because of Push-Proof. Im not a Fan of Nemesis at the Moment. It feels like nobody wants to loose to this card so everyone is prepaired.

Another Thing is that i want to test Liliana,Last Hope in the Main (maybe for Library and one Truth) because it looks so awesome on paper. It works fine against Strix and should win against Elfes and D/T if you are able to cast it, your K.Commands seems interesting as well :)

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I think Spell Pierce is a great card against control decks as well as combo decks. Pierce protects Gurmag and TNN from the few answers and backbreaking plays a control player has (Deluge, Jace, KCommand, Snap + whatever, Liliana). I've now cut the 3rd Goyf for a Spell Snare because I'd rather have a Goyf and a Snare for most matchups than having 2 Goyfs.

My boarding plan for:

Czech Pile
-4 FoW
-1 Trop
+2 Pyroblast
+2 KCommand
+1 Loam
(-Daze for +Fluster if I pack them)

I keep Dismember in because you never know if they will play a Delve creature, paying life is irrelevant, and DRS has to die. Decay is fine if they bring in jank (Moon, Jitte, Blossom, Lily). Daze is always good as they have so many curve toppers.

Grixis Control
-4 FoW
-1 Daze
-1 Trop
+2 Pyroblast
+2 Golgari Charm (Moon, Pyro, TNN)
+2 KCommand

I don't care about Loam for this matchup because they have enough basics and don't play Waste.

I disagree with you on the Goyf assessment for the Push matchups. Goyf is a tempo loss and gets walled by everything. Unlike Delver, he costs twice as much and won't fly over Gurmag or TNN. He never puts my opponent on a clock because he never gets to connect. Goyf is definitely not the threat I want for this matchup. TNN is as good as it gets for all control decks (Lands and Blade too!). TNN gives you a clear focus and you know exactly how to win the game when it hits play. Goyf shines when your opponent's only removal is red because it makes him a faster Gurmag/TNN in that MU.

Lilies cost double black. They are fine in the right deck. I think TNN (even KCommand) is more relevant than Sylvan, Truths, Lilies, and even Leos for a Delver deck. I also believe Blossom Is the most devastating card you can bring in against the premier control decks of the format if you have SB space to devote to that only purpose.

What do ya'll think is better between Gurmag and Tombstalker for a 4c Delver deck? I understand that the mana requirement for Tombstalker is harder to meet but if it wasn't that much of a stretch, how much better is a flying Gurmag for 1 more mana?

Given the following manabase:

4 Wasteland
8 Fetch
3 Usea
2 Trop
1 Volc
1 Badlands

Gurmags main perk is obviously the mana cost as he can be cast off a single mana and requires 1 less card in the GY if you decide to tap 2 mana as you would for a TS.

Both Delve creatures shine against tempo decks, stompy decks, and non-white control decks. Against tempo and stompy decks, Gurmag's mana cost is a great advantage as it can make the difference between an extra turn to cast your fatty (or you simply can't gather double black mana).

Now if I examine the perks of a flying Gurmag I can see that, as the aggressor, a TNN, Pyromancer, opposing Gurmag from a Grixis deck will not compromise my aggressive position. Same thing for other common situations such as a Wirewood Symbiote stall from an Elves player, an active Mom without a flyer from DnT or Maverick, a TNN or Batterskull from a Blade deck, and even when racing an Eldrazi player that paid too much life for his mana. More importantly, I feel like TS shines even more when you are trying to catch up from behind. Flying walls opposing Delvers or when stabilizing against UR Delver (Stormchaser Mage).

There are definitely lots of perks to a flying Gurmag and the extra mana is not negligible. What is your opinion on the matter? I intend on playing 2 copies.

To Discuss which card is better is nonsense because on the Board Tombstalker will be allways better then Gurmag :D if you think you can cast it, do it. But don't cry if you get punished by a Wasteland :P. Serious, i dont think its neccessary because if your opponent is forced to chump your Gurmag i think you are in the Driverseat anyway. The Difference between 1 and 2 Mana i so huge in that kind of Decks

in other words, how often is flying relevant vs. 1 extra mana. There are plenty of scenarios when flying is a clear advantages. Sometimes flying has no impact whatsoever. Sometimes 1 more mana makes the card uncastable or vulnerable to Daze. Sometimes the mana cost is irrelevant.

I don't know what to make of your answer as you seem to have no preference.

i would go with Gurmag Angler because i feel double black is too greedy in this deck. Maybe you should test it in the Delver Mirror and D/T and see how it goes

I tried a different creature configuration last week with:

4 DRS
4 Delver
4 Goyf
2 TNN
1 Gurmag

1 Dismember
4 Bolt
2 Decay
2 Pierce
4 Daze
4 FoW
4 BS
4 Ponder
1 Preordain

19 usual lands

I faced:

UR Delver (2-0)
RG Lands (2-0)
RG Lands (2-1)
Miracles (0-2)

Goyf was great against UR Delver as expected. Gurmag was walled by a TNN and I nearly lost there. I wish Decays were Push for this matchup (all creature matchups for that matter).

Lands got mostly steamrolled by quick creatures, soft counters, active DRS. The game I lost was a G1 against 4 land drops into Marrit Lage. Decay is fine at getting rid of Moxes preboard but mostly relevant against Choke postboard.

Bad mulligans, draws, and crappy brainstorms left me with no chance against Miracles. I faced double stp into CSpell/Snap and Jace backed up with FoW both games. Regardless, I don't think I had appropriate grindy threats and/or disruption to take down a good Miracles opponent.

Going forward I think I definitely want no more than 2-3 Goyfs. 2 Goyfs is definitely on the low side against red Delver decks, Burn, and Eldrazi. 4 Goyfs definitely gets clunky against Combo and Control decks.

I think it's also time to retire Dismember in favor of Push and move Decays to the SB. This change increases my amount of 1 mana removal from 5 to 6 and opens up a slot. I find that I mostly use Decay as creature removal pre-board and it is usually for DRS and Delver. This change decreases the need for green mana and consolidates the deck into a more UBrg deck. I can therefore swap a Tropical Island for a USea and keep my sweet green splash options.

I will also give Bitterblossom a spin over Loam and test out a pair of Spell Snares to see how much they help the control matchups and how much it hinders the others.

I follow the push over decay (although decay in delver matchups is very nice, to have uncounterable removal)

I will play the following list:

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
2 Tarmogoyf
2 True-Name Nemesis
2 Tombstalker

4 Ponder
1 Preordain

4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
1 Spell Snare
2 Spell Pierce
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Fatal Push
1 Dismember

4 Wasteland
3 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
1 Volcanic Island
1 Badlands
4 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest


Tombstalkers over Anglers, as we have 4 black sources and DRS. Played with similar or fewer black sources in other decks and still managed to easily cast the Stalker.

Still 1 dismember, against Eldrazi (which is still around in my meta), Angler, ... and such.

I had the following sideboard (before moving to push main):

2 Surgical Extraction
2 Flusterstorm
2 Pyroblast
2 Diabolic Edict
2 Kolaghan's Command
1 Golgari Charm
1 Bitterblossom
1 Life from the Loam
1 Pithing Needle
1 Grafdiggers' Cage

Maybe just replacing Loam by 1 decay. Although we have a lot of Mono Red Prison decks going around (but since we don't play any basics, we can best focus on the counter)

Will probably try it out at a bigger tournament soon.

Will probably replace the 1 preordain with a Painful Truth (big fan)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Xod

I follow the push over decay (although decay in delver matchups is very nice, to have uncounterable removal)

I will play the following list:

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
2 Tarmogoyf
2 True-Name Nemesis
2 Tombstalker

4 Ponder
1 Preordain

4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
1 Spell Snare
2 Spell Pierce
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Fatal Push
1 Dismember

4 Wasteland
3 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
1 Volcanic Island
1 Badlands
4 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest


Tombstalkers over Anglers, as we have 4 black sources and DRS. Played with similar or fewer black sources in other decks and still managed to easily cast the Stalker.

Still 1 dismember, against Eldrazi (which is still around in my meta), Angler, ... and such.

I had the following sideboard (before moving to push main):

2 Surgical Extraction
2 Flusterstorm
2 Pyroblast
2 Diabolic Edict
2 Kolaghan's Command
1 Golgari Charm
1 Bitterblossom
1 Life from the Loam
1 Pithing Needle
1 Grafdiggers' Cage

Maybe just replacing Loam by 1 decay. Although we have a lot of Mono Red Prison decks going around (but since we don't play any basics, we can best focus on the counter)

Will probably try it out at a bigger tournament soon.

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Hi Xod

I played a very similar deck to yours with a close sideboard. I've also been tweaking and testing a lot of different configurations over the last few months at regular weeklies with 20-30 players. I've always gone 3-1 or 4-0 (one 2-2) against a varied field. My meta contains primarily Miracles, Czech Pile, BUG Midrange/Delver/Shardless, Lands, UR Delver and almost every established and DtB. The most notable hole in my meta is the lack of Elves player. My deck has to be prepared for various controle decks, fast and aggressive strategies, and still be at the ready for combo decks. Here is what I can tell you:

Gurmag is way better than Tombstalker, especially in a 4c deck. Flying is not always relevant but B vs. BB cost is nearly always relevant. There will be times when you will have to wait an extra turn or several turns to find that second black source and you will wish you had Gurmag. Yes, sometimes you get stared down by a TNN but those occasions are scarce compared to the usual suboptimal draw sequences you have to fix, Wasteland flinging from both parties, and timely aggression your Gurmag will fend off by virtue of being faster. Tombstalker is a huge pet card of mine and I seriously dislike Gurmag's art but the latter is clearly superior in our deck. Here are some all too common scenarios:

-2 lands, Cast a Ponder looking for a threat or removal
-Usea, Volc and Trop. Need to draw a threat
-2 lands against a Delver deck with a potential Daze

I would even venture to say that Hooting Mandrill is probably superior to Tombstalker in your deck (-1 USea +1 Trop).

Fatal Push vs. Decay vs. Dismember is quite the conundrum. I've given up on Push entirely as it is simply more difficult to cast in time compared to Dismember. Being a 4c tempo deck we want to curve out our plays for our deck to be most efficient. Cantriping into removal is more manageable when your potential removal is red or colorless. Paying life is a small price to pay for the consistency and versatility that Dismember has over Push. I play Dismember #1 and #2 over Push #1. I play 4 Bolts and 2 Dismembers when I play 6 removal Spells and 4 Bolts, 1 Dismember and 2 Decays when I play 7. Decay is alone one of the reasons to play 4c in the first place so when you fit them mainboard you get to free some SB slots. I usually get a proper use out of Decays during G1 while Push is more often stranded G1 than a tempo boost compared to Decay. I think the main reason to play Push would be to pack a few Snapcasters.

Preordain is better mainboard than Painful Truths. Preordain is relevant to all matchups and increases your potential keeps for your openers. Preordain fixes our color requirements, feeds Goyf and Delve creatures in a timely fashion and pitches to FoW (or finds it!). If you want something a bit bigger than Preordain and that can grind even more than Truths, try out Sylvan Library. The manipulation you get over the course of a grindy match is very difficult for a control deck to handle, especially G1. Library is also cheaper and more versatile as you don't have to pay life for extra cards. Snapcaster is also a better card than Truths overal that can take on several roles and is never sided out.

My experience with Snare was dissapointing. I tried 2 copies and quickly made Snare a 0-1 card as it too often sits in your hand for too long or promotes subpar plays even in matchups where it is relevant. Snare is also one of those cards that is highly polarized but that offers little reward. Like Stifle, Snare is either good or worthless. Unlike Stifle, a Snare doesn't have the potential to greatly cripple your opponent. Snare is good at making small tempo gains (note: only when it is relevant to the matchups) or preventing card advantage (Strix, SFM, Hymn). For these reasons, if I have a slot to fill with interaction, I prefer Stifle to Snare. Of course Snare can be good against some combo decks but Stifle is always good against those as well. Again, the only time I would play a Snare over a Stifle in a Delver shell would be with a few Snapcasters.

Bitterblossom didn't live up to my expectations. I tried it in a variety of matchups and it simply wasn't great. The only matchups where it truly shine are Czech Pile and Miracles. Nothing else unfortunately... I prefer KCommand and Sylvan Library as SB grind slots by a mile as they are widely applicable. Blossom will come in if my mainboard threat suite is severely lacking in resillience (AKA: 3-4 Goyfs configuration)

Life from the Loam is a card I no longer pack in my SB because it is narrow, situational, and polarized. Loam is only relevant in a handful of matchups like Delver and other Loam decks or controle decks without basics. Even when it is relevant to the matchup it isnt always relevant to the situation. Loam doesn't take pressure off your shoulders and doesn't help you find answers. Loam without Wasteland is lackluster and doesn't always pull me ahead. Loam doesn't pull its weight as a SB card. I expect more from that slot.

Misty Rainforest doesn't fetch Badlands and Scalding Tarn is just like Delta for your manabase so you might as well use the 8 fetches that can get any dual before any Misty.

Just my 2 cents.

My current configuration is pretty funky but it has offered me the most coverage so far.