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Yea, i suggested gerrard if u were on a budget, but baneslayer is top choice.Quote:
Originally Posted by SMR0079
As for moat, with grips and pridemage, your pretty much just waiting for them to beat u down. It's a good staller, but I feel that a wrath would affect their attrition a lot more. They can't just use 1 creature b/c you got prisons, kor haven, and MotTabernacle, so you can definitely get them to overcommit. W/o recovery, you get lots of time to set up a lock engine.
I'm sorry if that was unclear, what I meant with EE was that they'd play and break it @ 3, then nuke Cloister with something else. Which may be fairly unlikely or pretty likely depending on their setup; personally, I see a few decks at work at every tournament I go to that have four Pride-Mages main and four Grips side.Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzykat
I guess my point would be that Cloister is too restrictive and situational to be run as a draw engine. Draw should make the late game more solid with a high probability. As I said, this may well be the case with Cloister in some metagames.
I do, however, often encounter situations in which I want to hold back cards; or my opponent has Serenity/Deed or multiple disenchants (yeah, you shouldn't let them get there but do they know? they can easily have Crucible/Loam themselves, disrupt your flow with Wastes, etc); or I'm short one lock piece.
In short, what I think Stax needs as a draw engine is one that a) takes up few slots, b) and/or doubles as a lock piece (a hypothetical Uba Mask coupled with Cloister comes to mind - the more lock-like it is, the more slots we could spare), c) and/or helps in nearly all mid- to lategame situations, either quickly or with little to no risk.
As I said, right now I'm a fan of KotR/Crucible/Canopy as it literally needs only one land cut to make room for Canopy. You still can't use it while developing mana though and it costs 2 per card drawn as well as being a two-part engine.
Zoo was a good matchup before they printed Qasali Pridemage. You really want Chalice @ 1 vs Zoo, but Chalice @ 2 is necessary to stop pridemage. Not only are you unlikely to have both, putting down Chalice @ 2 first stops your own Chalice @ 1. I find that Baneslayer + Chalice @ 1 can win the matchup on its own, since then they need to have an answer to Chalice @ 1 in hand and an answer to Baneslayer, as they have absolutely no outs to Baneslayer other than Path to Exile and double Lightning Bolt. If Baneslayer sticks on the board 2+ turns the game should usually be yours.
I board in 2 Wrath of God for Zoo, I find Wrath is relevant again vs Goblins, Elves and Zoo, any deck which can throw out a lot of creature based permanents. I would board out Smokestack. Another viable option is Humility since it leaves Krosan Grip as their only out and only in games 2 and 3, although you can still die to 1/1s beating down with burn backup. Moat by itself isn't good as its just asking to get alpha striked.
This is why we used to advocate 1-2 Cataclysms to supplement 4 geddons, especially if you can't afford Ravages. With the increased presence of creature swarms, Death and Taxes is considering including Cataclysm again, and I believe it's time Stax revisits the idea. Cataclysm keeping Trinisphere, Magus, and Prison doesn't just wipe their army, but it effectively resets the entire board in your favor. What can get through at that point? Tombstalker and Garruk on the board and a land in hand?Quote:
Originally Posted by FieryBalrog
Elves getting underway with Sylvan Messengers can afford to stockpile Elves in hand to bounce back from sweepers, and Goblins have even more tricks up their sleeves. If they still have mana, they can bounce back very quickly. Sweeping land + creatures hurts our artifacts, but it hurts them much more.
A big problem is Zoo, whose Sylvan Library allows them to Ancestral into more threats. Arguably, Zoo can do that anyway after Wrath and actually have the mana to cast all the threats they get, so Cataclysm might still come out ahead in that case.
Another problem is only having Prison as an enchantment. To more reliably abuse Cataclysm we want to have many controlling permanents on the field post-Cat.
The problem with Cataclysm is that it leaves them 1 creature; you can't count on having Magus in play (which by itself punishes any creature deck but Elves). 1 creature in this format these days is enough to kill you quite quickly, whether its Goyf or Nacatl. Even if Zoo kept their worst creature they could probably smash you in a few turns, and they'll obviously keep Goyf or Grim Lavamancer and you just die. I can see Cataclysm being better vs Elves- but they can just keep Priest of Titania or Elvish Archdruid, and if they have a Llanowar in reserve, they're back in business. And on top of this you usually lose half your board to your own 'clysm. Its really that drawback combined with a lack of any real advantage that leads me to just use Wrath. The mana can be punished in any of our other numerous ways.
Cataclysm works in something like D&T or an Aggro-Loam style deck because they're keeping a huge fatty or an evasive critter and an equipment to beat down with while their opponent keeps a Nacatl or whatever. Its not that good as a defensive maneuver, particularly in a deck thats going to lose a ton of its own permanents to the 'Clysm.
You make decent points, but I think the problem is I'm proposing without having tested it, and you're rejecting without having tested it.
For example, if there's a Chalice or Trinisphere out, that Priest won't be able to do much. If there's a Chalice or a Trinisphere or a Magus or a Prison out, they aren't going to be making a huge attack anytime soon. Compare a creature that makes one mana (since they have one elf) and a Forest to no creatures but plenty of Forests. They don't need to pay during upkeep for their forests, so if you do have Magus out against them, having more forests (post Wrath) is better for them than having a forest and a creature (post Cat).
I think the best time to Cataclysm is early on in the game when you've dropped a few lock pieces, and they've spat their hand out onto the field. In this situation, you leave them with a critter and a land with no hand, and you haven't lost much because it's only 3ish turns into the game and you simply haven't had the time to cast much. You're coming from a Cataclysm-less PoV and seeing how bad it coud possibly be, but why would you necessarily need to cast all your artifacts when you know you're going to want to play Cataclysm? You set up a soft lock and/or slow them down then bring the hammer down with Cataclysm in a way that destroying lands-only or creatures-only cannot do.
(Yes, I know that this concentrates on elves whereas Zoo is a more likely MU, but at least it shows some promise.)
So I just won a Force of Will with this deck from my first legacy event, and I'm feeling pretty good about myself. I've got some questions about the archetype:
Most sideboards that I see contain some number of Sphere of Law, but I've never seen a single Circle of Protection: Red. I realize that the Sphere is much more useful against goblins, but it seems like stax handles goblins already. Even with Sphere in play though, since it comes out so much later, Burn can 1 you every turn and reasonably win. Since CoP Red is so much better against burn (wins by itself) I ran it and I was really pleased. Is there something that I'm missing?
Enlightened Tutor is something that I've never seen in any list, but it seems like the perfect sideboard card. It does, of course, get countered by Chalice on 1, but there are so many decks that just fold to individual cards in stax that ET can just say gg. I sided in two copies of Enlightened Tutor for almost every matchup today, and it was bonkers every time I drew it. I guess that's not a question, I just thought you should know.
Ensnaring Bridge is another card that I haven't seen discussed (although I've only read about 20 pages of this thread), which occurred to me after the tournament. It's frequently said that stax's weakness is one large creature, and Bridge handles them much more effectively than Ghostly Prison. It's also very good against decks with lots of discard. Thoughts?
Finally, there haven't been any notes on match-ups for a couple of months in this thread. If anyone feels up to writing a quick thing on the most common opponents, that would be really appreciated.
Thank.
There are many arguments against E.T., but they pretty much revolve around card disadvantage and poor synergy.
1) Card Disadvantage: we have no library manipulation little if any draw, so we must maximize our draw steps. E.T. eats a draw step for negligible benefit, given that our threats are made as widely-applicable as possible.
2) Everything's a permanent, with Armageddon being the exception that proves the rule. Permanents are used because they can be sacced to Smokestack, and because they tend to have a lasting impact upon the game. Relatively expensive spells are used because they naturally fit with Trinisphere and Chalice. E.T. breaks every philosophy of the deck.
If anything is sided in for every game and is useful in every game, it should be a maindeck card. If you look at tournament-topping decks, E.T. is never listed. The reasons include the above. A quick search of this thread will no doubt yield others.
Right, but doesn't E.T. itself solve those problems? Mid-game there are dozens of blank cards that you could be drawing (duplicate Trinispheres, extra land, Ghostly Prison vs. control, etc) and the tutor ensures that you'll draw whatever specific out you happen to be looking for.Quote:
Originally Posted by kirbysdl
You don't always have a Smokestack in play, and Smokestack lock is not always the plan that you're looking to execute. Also, E.T. does have a lasting impact on the game because it finds the silver bullet that will crack your opponent. As for Trinisphere and Chalice, E.T. is worth three mana midgame and you can always put your Chalices on 2 (or 0).Quote:
Originally Posted by kirbysdl
Enlightened Tutor is not very useful in every game, but there are certain match-ups where a specific card is critical or overwhelming (I played against a lot of combo today). Trinisphere vs. ANT, Sphere of Law vs. burn, Tormod's Crypt vs. dredge, Oblivion Ring or Ghostly Prison vs. Belcher, Crucible of Worlds vs. the mirror. There are obviously lots of decks like Thresh or Zoo that don't have critical holes in their defense, against which Enlightened Tutor isn't that great, but isn't it worthwhile siding it in against the decks that do? It doesn't even really take up sideboard space, since you'll be able to play fewer cards against each specific problem deck.Quote:
Originally Posted by kirbysdl
While I don't think that E Tutor is always bad, most of the matchups you listed where E Tutor is useful I think are just fine or better without it. For example, Chalice @ 1 is the best play vs ANT (followed by Chalice @ 2 to stop Hurkyl's Recall and Echoing Truth). You should manhandle Dredge already and can just side in Crypts without E Tutor, Belcher is another good matchup; they either win on turn 1 on the play or generally lose, and O-Ring and Prison are the least of your weapons vs. them. In fact the best spot for E Tutor is probably Crucible vs the mirror, esp since you side out Chalice anyway, but that doesn't happen nearly often enough to merit it.
I've actually played a list with E Tutor extensively, and E Tutor is too slow, interacts poorly with two of your most important lock pieces (Chalice and Sphere), is card disadvantage, and isn't a permanent. All strikes against it. Very few of your lock pieces are going to win the game by themselves by the time you can E Tutor for them, and in the matchups and situations that they are, you can usually win without it. On the other hand, running E Tutor means you dropped something critical (the list is incredibly tight on space) and often costs you games if you draw it in lieu of whichever group of permanents you needed.
You don't really run Silver bullets in Stax though. At least, you shouldn't. I've tried it; Stax is a deck that lives off the topdeck and opening hand, and wants consistency above all. Every lock component should be as versatile and high-impact as possible.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ban Ki-moon
But Chalice @ 1 is your strongest (and most reliable) play. I would say its the strongest early play in the deck bar Turn 1 Trinisphere. Chalice @ 2 is the other really good one, but it requires 4 mana and often comes down much later. If I did run E Tutor I would still Chalice @ 1 as much as possible and simply live with the inconsistency.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ban Ki-moon
Of course, keep trying it if you like it; I just don't think it fits the strategy of the deck.
What's the conventional wisdom on singleton Nomad Stadium and Kor Haven? They're the type of card that could really help you out in certain situations, but the chances of drawing a single card and having it active at those times seems highly unlikely. They also work poorly with our sideboard staple Suppression Field.
For those running singles of such land, how do you justify their use? We don't have any tutors for nonplains, nor do we have sift and draw effects to find one-ofs. For a deck trying as hard as possible to be consistent, this seems to throw a monkey wrench in the entire deck philosophy.
I suppose the simple answer is to not use these cards, but I'm wondering why they always crop up, even in tourney-winning lists. Thoughts?
My feeling on the subject is that the deck is only 1/2 a color (i.e. It's white but most of the deck is land+artifacts). The lands don't really hurt the strategy, they produce mana and could potentially pull random wins. You already have a bajillion non-basic lands and if your opponent is wasting your land then they are making it easier for you to lock them under 3sphere, crucible etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by kirbysdl
So to me it's more like a why not, than a why do it.
I would never even consider using Cataclysm in Stax unless a majority of my lock pieces are enchantments (ie. Ghostly Prison, Moat, Humility). Here are the reasons why.
1.) It doesn't completely clear your opponent's board. More specifically, it leaves them with Tarmogoyf.
2.) Unlike other symmetrical Stax spells / lock pieces, Cataclysm is quite the double-edged sword, meaning it hurts you just as much as it hurts them (Trinisphere / Chalice of the Void do not).
3.) There's 2 sticky situations regarding Artifacts: you either play it and keep your Crucible (meaning you no longer have your Trinisphere / Chalice of the Void) or you play it and get rid of your Crucible, keeping only your lock pieces.
4.) You don't get to keep Elspeth (this is important for many variations)
Cataclysm is just too random of a card that Stax really can't take full advantage of quite honestly. It's a nifty Armageddon 5-6, especially if you can't afford Ravages of War. However, the true power in Armageddon lies in its synergy with Chalice of the Void / Trinisphere / Crucible of Worlds, which Cataclym only lets you get to keep one of.
Fair enough, thanks for the notes. Any thoughts on CoP: Red? I'm still really curious about why Sphere of Law is the card of choice.Quote:
Originally Posted by FieryBalrog
Once again for synergy: Chalice could keep us from casting CoP, geddon and Suppression Field could keep us from activating it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ban Ki-moon
Yea, the main reason is Sphere of Law doesn't require any mana input. Imagine having COP: Red and Ancient Tomb out... ;)
Don't forget we (Zoo) have Gaddock Teeg in in our sideboard. It's a bitch for you as well. The other day my lone Teeg just singlehandedly shut down a Armageddon Stax deck completely. I'm actually upping him from 3 to 4 in my side, he's that good.Quote:
Originally Posted by kirbysdl
Yea, I've played against Teeg and he is hideously annoying for this deck. You can hardly cast anything, and your only outs to Teeg are Oblivion Ring (which is incredibly vulnerable post-board).Quote:
Originally Posted by Nelis
Luckily some zoo players don't board Teeg, but the ones that do... I'd have to think about a solution in the board. Stax would like an Unmake that cost 2W.
Casting cost, and the lack of an activation cost.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ban Ki-moon
There's Crib Swap. Giving them a token has horrific synergy with Smokestack, but it's not like Smokestack is great in the matchup anyways and the token works decently with Ghostly Prison/Magus, and dies to Factories. At the worst, if you have to take beats from the token, it is only a 1/1 and doesn't get undone by Pridemage like O-Ring does. I don't know if it's a worthwhile card, but if you want to fry Teeg, it'll do it.Quote:
Originally Posted by FieryBalrog