Why not run Horizon Canopy in place of Razor Thicket? Seems like a perfect balance between color needs and late-game utility; with the added bonus of boosting your KoTR.
Also, in this metagame, I wouldn't run a maindeck _&Taxes w/o Canonist.
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Why not run Horizon Canopy in place of Razor Thicket? Seems like a perfect balance between color needs and late-game utility; with the added bonus of boosting your KoTR.
Also, in this metagame, I wouldn't run a maindeck _&Taxes w/o Canonist.
I have played Canopy in Zoo before but I wasn't very impressed by it. I mainly used it as a painland, which dealt 2-4 damage to me over the course of a game, more if I faced manadenial and I suppose that's way too much when you don't have the removaldensity of Zoo - maybe I'm not using it correctly? I always drop them last (except if I need to dig for something/want to bait a Wasteland) and cycle them when I run out of cards in hand.Quote:
Originally Posted by rukcus
My metagame is a bit different from the american metagame - here are far less combo players than seem to be in your regular Opens and other tournaments. Or are refering to the Mother + Canonist "softlock"?
@Nidd
hello i play GnT and tried several build with it but i eventually came back to my original list
I've tried GsZ with fauna shaman with the iona combo i didn't liked it as it was weak in terms of aggro power. Yes it gave me a soft lock and made mangara effective when opponents waists there removal to mother and fauna or visa versa i can combo out with iona.Quote:
Lands [21]
1 Forest
1 Gaea's Cradle
2 Plains
2 Karakas
4 Savannah
4 Windswept Heath
1 Flooded Strand
4 Wasteland
2 Horizon Canopy
Creatures [28]
3 Mother of Runes
3 Noble Hierarch
3 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Serra Avenger
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Mangara of Corondor
2 Mirran Crusader
3 Knight of the Reliquary
Spells [11]
4 AEther Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
As for gameplay.. for me DT and GT are totally different. DT is more controlish as compared to GT well maybe because of my build but DT innately has better control elements i feel. A suggestion i could tell you is that try to make your GT a more aggro shell as compared to controlish. If you really like to have a DT feel of gameplay in a GT shell try to run 3 quirion ranger / scryb ranger.
I think horizon canopy is much better over razor ticket
here is my current build, I am still tweaking it a bit, but so far I am really impressed and happy with this build.
Artifacts:
4 x Aether Vial*
2 x Umezawa’s Jitte*
1 x Sword of Fire and Ice
Creatures:
4 x Mother of Runes
4 x Qasali Pridemage
2 x Gaddock Teeg
4 x Tarmagoyf*
4 x Mangara of Corondor
4 x Knight of the Reliquary*
Spells:
4 x Swords to Plowshares*
2 x Elspeth, Knight-Errant*
Lands:
4 x Savannah
3 x Windswept Heath
1 x Wooded Foothillls
4 x Horizon Canopy
2 x Maze of Ith
3 x Karakas
2 x Forest
2 x Plains
4 x Wasteland
*denotes either foil or foreign.
here is my current build, I am still tweaking it a bit, but so far I am really impressed and happy with this build.
Artifacts:
4 x Aether Vial*
2 x Umezawa’s Jitte*
1 x Sword of Fire and Ice
Creatures:
4 x Mother of Runes
4 x Qasali Pridemage
2 x Gaddock Teeg
4 x Tarmagoyf*
4 x Mangara of Corondor
4 x Knight of the Reliquary*
Spells:
4 x Swords to Plowshares*
2 x Elspeth, Knight-Errant*
Lands:
4 x Savannah
3 x Windswept Heath
1 x Wooded Foothillls
4 x Horizon Canopy
2 x Maze of Ith
3 x Karakas
2 x Forest
2 x Plains
4 x Wasteland
*denotes either foil or foreign.
Guys what do you think of this GT build..
thanks
Lands [21]
4 windswept heath
2 horizon canopy
4 savannah
3 plains
2 karakas
4 wasteland
2 rishadan port
Creatures [24]
3 mother of runes
3 weathered wayfarer
3 serra avenger
3 qasali pridemage
3 stoneforge mystic
3 tarmogoyf
2 phyrexian revoker
2 managara of corondor
2 knight of the reliquary
Spells [15]
4 aether vial
4 swords to plowshares
2 path to exile
1 umezawa's jitte
1 sword of fire and ice
1 sword of light and shadow
2 sensei's divinning top
Sideboard [15]
4 leyline of sanctity
1 bojuka bog
1 tormods crypt
2 ethersworn canonist
2 gaddock teeg
2 krosan grip
2 leonin arbiter
1 pithing needle
Well to be fair, it doesn't have to be DnT = Control, GnT = Aggro. GnT has pretty good control tools too. Obviously you lose the Port denial plan but stuff like Teeg and Pridemage are very disruptive in their own right.Quote:
Originally Posted by _erbs_
TYhe two of path with the wastelands and two ports seems counter productive me
*My touerney report, copy and pasted from the other forum...
Runed Halo... is it still worth a slot in the sb? I'm starting to lose faith in this card... I went 3rd in a 55 man tourney and not once did I consider bringing in this card... My list is same as Finn's except -1 plains, -2 oust, +3 arbiters (it seems I'm the only one left loving this card, I dropped this when the new set came out and I really did miss it)
First Round: Spanish Inquisition Belcher (0-2)
G1: 3rd turn he goes off...
G2: He goes off turn 1... Had he not, I probably would've won because I had Enlightened Tutor into Null Rod... and he didn't side anything... Oh well...
Second Round: Affinity (2-0)
G1: He goes first turn dude equipped with plating... I play revoker on plating... He played another plating next turn so thank god for revoker... I flickerwisp his dude with the plating but he plays a Tezz 2.0 next turn making the plating 5/5 and swinging me down to 1... Next turn played a Jitte, attacked his Tezz with my revoker and managed to win from there... I remember blocking the 5/5 plating with my grunt and shooting it with a jitte counter...
G2: He has another first turn dude + equip the plating opening... I play a plains and pass... He plays another land and drops his final card a frogmite... I tutored eot for Serenity and he got hella sad... I take another swing + from the frogmite going down to 5 or 6... Serenity blows up his entire field and I win from there...
Third Round: Dredge (2-0)
G1: Really lucky that I managed to assemble a mother of runes and Serra Avenger and Jitte (oh I had a vial this game) before he hit his first Narcomoeba... I think he got too excited that he failed to see I can shoot my own mother of runes to remove the bridges and that's game...
G2: Turn1 enlightened tutor for wheel in response to Cabal Therapy which would have been the optimum play had my opponent known my deck (because I would assume that he would name Tutor), turns out he didn't and he had breakthrough in hand so he still got a hell of a lot of stuff in his yard that turn... again he lacked another creature to dread return Iona, I tried to help him because I had Karakas in hand hehe but he really lacked creatures, I think he only had 1 Bridge in the yard... To make matters worse... After I played wheel, the turn after I topdecked Relic of Progenitus...
Fourth Round: Rock (2-1)
G1: Uninteresting game as he managed to Hymn me and hit 2 lands from my hand turn 2, and I think I drew my 2nd land five turns later...
G2: Tables turned because this time, he couldn't find a white source even after so many times he topped... Won easily
G3: I think he got scared of getting screwed out of a color by wasteland (happened g2) that he fetched for his basics... but then I got port and proceeded to port his green mana for forever... I even managed to play revoker on deed and I knew he had one because he threw his Confidant on it when I attacked with 2 revokers (other one was naming Kotr) but I had flickerwisp in hand so I got to change the other revoker to deed... He played explosives on 2 and managed to get a wasteland and destroyed my port and got to deed me (this sequence took a lot of turns) but he was down to 1... Next turn I played Serra Avenger and he didn't have an answer...
Fifth Round: Ant (2-1)
G1: I figured he would be some kind of combo because of the way he was looking at his hand in the opening and how long it took him to decide to play, so I wasteland his first land and swung my mothers at him... He still managed to adnaus at 14 I think was at 3 only and still needed to find the Infernal tutor and could've still died to a reveal but he got the tutor before a 1 cost spell...
G2: I play canonist turn 2 and it stalls him real hard... I managed to draw an enlightened tutor and got thorn of amethyst next turn... He got frustrated because he had the kill (he had deathmark in his hand and would've won next turn because he had already sculpted his hand)...
G3: I keep a hand with Thorn but he durresses it away... I figured he would definitely have the first turn discard and my hand was pretty good (had a vial, mother, leonin arbiter, wasteland, and i think a plains) so I said what the hell... Played vial t1 then t2 played arbiter with vial on 1 so i can put mother into play... He had disfigure for my arbiter (but he used it on his turn) so I started to get worried... Managed to wasteland him and put an avenger into play... I draw an arbiter which was golden as he had an uncracked delta with 3 lands in play (but I had a port that kept one of his lands busy always... I fight the urge to put down the grunt in hand because he might respond with the delta so I settled with an Avenger swinging... When he was down to 8, he thinks for a long long time, and thinks he got it, he cracks his fetch, in response I tap vial, and play enlightened tutor to get my canonist and put it on top, he doesn't nudge because he can win that turn, but when I put the arbiter to play, he got frustrated again because now he was gonna lack mana... Thinks for a long long time again trying to figure a way out... I asked the passing judge for time left and kept looking at my watch because he really was thinking too long... and he just goes through with it and shakes my hand afterwards...
Sixth Round: Merfolk (2-0)
G1: He goes first and dazes my vial, I wasn't worried because I had another in hand... Played it 2nd turn and drew another on the third turn so I had a vial on 2 and 3... I think his board was 2 adepts (showed atlantis twice), 1 cursecatcher 1 island, 1 mutavault, 1 wasteland... I managed to port his island on the turn he draw an Island so he still couldn't play his Lord, I then put mangara into play, and managed to Mangara-Flickerwisp one of his islands before his turn... The turn after I plopped down Karakas, and even if he had wasteland, I would still get another Island and return Mangara to hand so he just packs his cards
G2: This was a game for the ages... Lots of godlike topdecks (he topdecks a Jitte when he was dead next turn, I topdeck an Oring for his Jitte - but he managed to spell pierce and daze it as I only had 2 mana extra,me topdecking a flickerwisp for his threads on my Grunt and the best of all, me topdecking a revoker with the game getting out of hand because of his freaking jitte) and lots of tight plays on my part I think (me Karakas-ing his Kira after he pays 4 to equip his jitte - I think he didn't notice it, or he was banking on me not noticing it because he really needed to get counters on it, me porting one of his 2 lands during his attack phase so he couldn't equip Jitte to his other creature that he left for D, me playing another grunt and letting the first one die with the upkeep trigger of the second one on the stack so the second one will have enough to eat)... The last moments of the game had him on 2 mutavaults, one of which i tapped when it tried to attack with the jitte (it had 1 counter on it), and he was at 2 life, and me having only a mother of runes... I topdeck a revoker and casually tap my vial and ask if it's good... He says go and I drop revoker naming Jitte preventing him from responding any further... Mother swings he activates his muta and I tap it, so he goes to 1... he didn't draw a creature so next turn I attack with both creatures, he activates both mutas and I tap one yet again and he offers his hand...
3rd after Swiss and the top8 decided to not play out and just draft the duals by standing...
Overall I really really think that I played the tightest I could and it showed in the result... I actually lamented during the first round because after I was beaten so fast, I had time to scout the field and much to my shock, the room was full of combo so I was feeling a little down after the first round because combo is very hard but I managed to scrape through... The report might be missing some stuff but I'm just trying to write this down from memory...
This deck really rewards tight play as small incremental advantages would pile up and lead to games won in the end...
Rave: Saw the reaction of an opponent playing affinity after I searched and played Serenity
Rant: Didn't get to see the reaction of an opponent playing burn after I search and play Warmth haha
DP
nice report.. Are you from the philippines? Because the tournament I played in also did not play the Top8 but decided to just get the duals, as you said, by their standings.. just wondering.. hehe.. :P
You are by far not the only one who give the arbiter love, my friend and I who play D&T love that card for what it does to people with fetches, which is pretty much everyone.
I've seen the deck a lot, and being a Canadian Thresh player, I just don't see why I'd want to run it. I like the newer versions that go GW for Knight, Qasali, Goyf, and occasionally Terravore; that makes the aggro package of the deck a lot better. But why burden what could be an excellent W or GW vial aggro deck that has such stars as Jotun Grunt (who, by the way, is a BOSS), Serra Avenger, Goyf, and Knight with gimmicky, slow shenanigans like Mangara of Condor and Weathered Wayfarer? Back when I was seeing Flickerwisp I could understand because Flickerwisp ruins a lot of tempo against opposing vial decks and EE, but the deck seems like it's spread too thin and could become a lot scarier if it focused on outright killing the enemy.
Remember, all the testing I've done of the deck has been over MWS. I'm saying this as a Canadian Thresh player who has only lost one game and no matches to D&T, and that was due to a triple-Wasteland draw (which could've happened against folk/goblins/mirror as well). I've always loved the concept, but the execution...
Well, that was unsolicited. I hope that I don't have to tell you what MWS has to offer. But Canadian Threshold? Srsly? That's pretty funny.
Good one.
Really.
---------------------------------
Also, look to Phyrexian Metamorph as a tutorable solution to Emrakul and Progenitus. Only problem is that it will almost never be faster than a sorcery.
Look, clearly you guys see or know something that I just don't get. I want to understand it because I really like White-based aggro strategies. And yeah, I know MWS sucks, but I also know what games I win that I shouldn't (on MWS, it's a lot).
I wanted someone to explain to me how I'm wrong, not laugh at my deck choice even though it's made paste out of every D&T player I've faced off against. And you do know it's coming back, right? Get with the program.
In any case: Please tell me which parts of my analysis were incorrect. I'm not being sarcastic or snarky -- I want to find a reason to build this deck, but I just can't justify it right now.
It would help if we had the list the DnT pilot was using. The pilot(s) you're facing probably have suboptimal decklists, or are not very experienced with the deck.
I can speak from experience that I find the Canadian Thresh matchup very hard to lose.
Also, Mangara is one of the best cards in the deck.
Hly shit, it is PERFECT.Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn
Emrakul is solvable, Prog is harder but clearly not autoloss.
But both in one deck are very hard 'cause MD answers to Emmy (Karakas, O-Ring, Mangara) do nothing to Prog. Thus, Sneak and Show matchup was only a little better than Storm.
But now I have a solution that only takes 1 slot in sideboard. Man, that is awesome!
A possibility of Mangara lock opens the whole new way to attack opponent's gameplan. This element allows you to switch from aggro to control and vice versa, which is one of the cornerstones of this deck.Quote:
Originally Posted by a-slice-of-cake
Also, after being exiled by Mangara in game one, opponent will focus on breaking the lock in game two. This doesn't 100% work on prepaired opponent, but the deck (at least mono-w) is extremely rare.
Threat of Mangara lock damages opponent's gameplan even if he is aware of it.
Flickerwisp does much more than you think (and even more if you have Vial with 3 counters). Only experience will teach you, but believe me, this card has endless applications.Quote:
Originally Posted by a-slice-of-cake
Few examples:
1) Laugh at Phyrexian Dreadnought.
2) Laugh at Chalice of the Void
3) Blink your own land. Nice tempo gain. Wisp => untap your Wasteland = screw opponent's mana while establishing board position.
4) Evasion is important when you want to deliver equipments into opponent's face.
5) Vial at 3 + Flickerwisp.
5a) Save your creature from removal.
5b) Blink your Mangara in responce to his ability.
This is actually your huge mistake. D&T is not an aggro deck.Quote:
Originally Posted by a-slice-of-cake
The ability to switch from aggro to control (depending on current opponent and current gamestate) is one of the main things you should learn.
Goyfs, Pridemages and KotR are good for aggro, but they all and color splashing in general hurt deck's ability to switch roles (IMHO). That's why I'm playing mono-w.
Thanks, Firemind, for actually answering my post instead of going "Look at how smug I'm being toward this new dude, that makes me so cool." I'd always thought of D&T as an aggro deck because in my mind, Vial equated to aggro, end of discussion.
By the way, I didn't phrase myself well the first time -- I LOVE Flickerwisp. I want more decks in Legacy to play him. Dude's a house, and this is the best deck for him. I honestly don't understand why anyone playing this style of deck would exclude him.
As a Blue Tempo player, I can understand the balance between Aggro and Control the deck tries to achieve now. Well, not so much the balance between them as the modularity of being able to change strategies on a dime. That's the main difference I see between Thresh/Team America/etc. and D&T; D&T switches between the two as needed, whereas blue tempo seeks to achieve both simultaneously. As a result, D&T has a lot more threats (yay!) but less ways of reacting quickly while trying to siege the opponent (boo!).
How does this "Mangara lock" work? I know the trick about bouncing with Karakas or otherwise blinking him with the ability on the stack, but it seems so fragile against any deck packing spot removal or permission. Plus, you can't always count on Mom resolving or living. I guess Mangara and Wayfarer are my main hangups with the deck; I know they're powerful, but they just feel so clunky and situational in scenarios where you don't clearly have the upper hand.
One last thing: Why are you all having good matchups against Can Thresh? Looking at our removal suite, permission, and shroudy or big threats, it seems like it should be tough, especially postboard when we get rid of some of the weaker permission like Daze and put in Firespout and Pithing Needle. Maybe most Can Thresh players have terrible boards... I have to admit, the average can thresh player I see in a tournament doesn't know what the hell he's doing beyond the basics, and the board is hard to build.
EDIT: When I stop being a sleep-dep zombie I'll proxy up a non-Mangara non-Wayfarer version that's a little more aggro-ey and see how/if it works.
You have the Mangara lock down correctly. As for removal and permission, that isn't too big of a problem.
With removal, the deck is full of must-kill targets so they'll have a hard time killing everything. Mum and Mangara are 2 good examples. Obviously if they have a LOT of removal (ie Zoo or something similar) then it's not too great.
Permission can be approached the same way. You can just bait their counters with other creatures and play the Mangara last - or even play it first and force them to counter it and clear the way for something like stoneforge mystic.
All in all, the "clunkiness" can be avoided by just playing it intelligently, or knowing what really matters in the particular matchup.
I agree with you on wayfarer though. It doesn't fit the deck, and not many people use it. It fits better in UW tempo.
As for Can Thresh, your threats are goose, clique, and goyf usually. If we resolve a vial early, we're far ahead already. If not, we benefit from the fact that thresh doesn't run a lot of threats. Typical builds usually run 10-12 creatures, if I'm not mistaken. As a contrast, my DnT list runs 27 creatures. Sure, you can remove things and counter a lot of things, but a lot of the time we're given time to find and land a threat before thresh kills us.
Firespout can be played around by not overextending. Thresh doesn't have a lot of threats so we only really need 1 or 2 creatures (especially if we have an equip) to win.
Firs of all, I play mono-w with Ports (don't like G-splash, described above), so all my conclusions are correct only for classic version of the deck.Quote:
Originally Posted by a-slice-of-cake
@ Wayfarer: I don't play him. I tried in the past, wasn't satisfied at all and dismissed. Once in a month or two I reassemble list with it and give it a little spin (I actually do this with all questionable cards). Conclusion is the same every time: I don't want to see it in my 75. This doesn't mean that the card is bad or bad in this deck. Maybe it's my personal preference, maybe I feel more comfortable with other cards, but my decision is clear.
Other people play Wayfarer and feel good about him. You should try to ask them.
@ Mangara: Yep, you are correct, Karakas+Mangara is the lock and blinking Mangara with Wisp is card advantage. And yes, it's fragile.
But here come many 'if's which you can only learn from experience.
Some examples:
1) You use Mangara's ability, respond it with Karaks', opponent casts removal. Mangara's target will be exiled, Mangara dies, opponent lost a permanent and removal. Clear 2-for-1 to us.
2) You should Vial Mangara at the end of opp's turn (better when he tapped out) or when yo have untapped Karakas. Pretty basic, but it really helps against removal.
Vial neglects countermagic, Mom, flickeblinks and right moment protect from removal, you can realistically draw second mangara after they deal with first one (this deck can play long game),...
This deck is far more complex and have shitload of small unobvious situational interractions, tricks and synergies. At the first glance, they all are weak, unimportant and are not worth the trouble, but in fact they win games.
We can trade guys, removal and counters, but and manadenial plan often works against Can Thresh (remember: I play monowhite with 11 Plains and no fetches) and DnT runs cards which deny lots of your deck once you let them resolve (like Aether Vial > counterspells and Mother of Runes > removal).Quote:
Originally Posted by a-slice-of-cake
From my expirience, MU should be equal if it were not 3 Jotun Grunt in our 60 (and often 4 post-side). White giant is very hard to deal with.
Average DnT player in MWS doesn't know even basics =).Quote:
Originally Posted by a-slice-of-cake