Don't know about 'strictly'. Transmute cant be countered and can get singleton cards. Intuition does double duty here though so is probably better for this deck anyway.Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Hammer
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Don't know about 'strictly'. Transmute cant be countered and can get singleton cards. Intuition does double duty here though so is probably better for this deck anyway.Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Hammer
First of all, I want to say hi, cuz it's my first post here.
I'm quite new to Legacy Reanimator, and whole format too, so I'm looking for tips from more experienced ppl. I have a severals issues with my build, so here they are:
1. Draw Engine.
I'm running draw core (4 brainstorms and 4 studies), but I struggle with choosing the most important part of that engine - Tutors / LDVs. Both have benefits and drawbacks, and favors diffrent playstyles, but I want to know Your opinion.
We can fetch some silver bullets with Tutors, like single bounce or removal in main deck, or even bring our fattie straight from our hand, due to tutored Show and Tell. What is more, our sideboard seems to favor builds with tutors - Perish, Silence, etc. We also don't need to pay life, digging our library. But we can't fetch Entomb, what is crucial, and we also suffer little card disadvantage, caused by putting sorcery on top of library, and breaking the draw tempo.
LDV is instant cast, also can support FoW (like tutor), can fetch every single card in library, but causes life loose, which followed by fetchalnds and Reanimate can be fatal (~12-13 total life loose, omg wtf bbq). I said that postsideboard favor Tutors in general, but we can help us digging for Null Rod / Needle with LDV - Personals can't do that. Casting LDV, and putting studies + fat ass at the library top is tasty too.
I have two propositions of draw engine, and I want to hear your opinions and votes for them.
4x Brainstorm
4x Studies
4x LDV
1x Extra slot
or
4x Brainstorm
4x Studies
3x Personal
2x LDV
We can give a try with 1-2 Ponders, but I dunno if it's not too much. On the other hand, we can always choose them as a FoW oil or trash them with studies as a dead card. But generally I don't see the point of playing Ponders when we can bring the better options. Yup?
My next problem is choosing our fatties. The core is:
2x Ionna
1x Sphinx
1x Inkwell
1x Archon
Then ppl usually bring It / Terastodon, or even 2nd Sphinx / 3rd Ionna (kinda weird imo).
...BUT we can do a few things here. Personally, I'm looking forward to exchange Blazing Archon for Stormtide Leviathan. Of course, it's primary ability is worse than Archon's, but every single match up, that we want to run with entombing Archon, can be easily won by bringing the Stormtide too - Merfolks, Dredge, etc. What is more, Stormtide is harder to burn for Goblins and some other shit. My weapons of choice are:
2x Ionna
1x Sphinx
1x Inkwell
1x Stormtide
1x Terastodon
Then I'm having hard time with last spot. It, that Betrays, imo is not something amazing. My testing games showed me that he wins the games, that are won already. He can't race with aggro decks due to his lack of vigilance / haste. He doesn't have lifelink, our Sphinx is much better options for opponents playing aggro decks. I don't even mention his lack of evasion abilities, such an flying or protections. It can be easily stopped / delayed by some shit. On the control / combo decks, I would rather bring Ionna and lock opponent down, or even play our untouchable Inkwell. And finally, when I want to remove some nasty pernaments, I prefer bringing our tenacious elephant - Terastodon :D It destroys DIRECTLY and IMMEDIATELY. But enlighten me plz, maybe I'm just doing it wrong :)
Last but not least - number of our fat asses. 6/7/more? Playing 7 or more favor studies, having 6 will sometimes make You cry discarding some usefull cards after study. But having many creatures hurt our deck slots. I think that 6 (virtually 10, with Entombs) reanimate targets is enough due to great digging potential. But I want to see You statement here.
On the dead end. What is You choice of playing minor distruption cards (over FoWs) - Dazes and Thoughtseizes? 4+2 or 3+3?
Daze can be another FoW oil or even Careful Study oil in middle game. Thoughtseize can be sometimes gamebreaking, or even be used for bringing our reanimate targets from hand to the grave. But it's another pain...
Looking forward for replies, cheers.
PS. Sry for my english.
Has anyone taken the old (6-7 creature) lists and replaced the Mystical Tutor+Silver bullet with a Couple more fatties and 3 Show and Tell?
I did something similar. The problem is everyone is expecting T3 show and tells nowadays, not to mention theres a lot of decks with better things to put in off show in tell (like Emrakul, Progenitus, or Humility)
4x BrainstormQuote:
Originally Posted by Mroova
3x Careful Studies
3x LDV
2x Personal Tutor
It should be enought, LDV has to be in more copies than PT 'cuz:
- it gives access to FoW
- it's a good re-start if u've failed your re-animation plan
- give access to PT
Without Mystical Tutor, we need 7 creatures and we need multiple copies of:Quote:
Originally Posted by Mroova
- Iona
- Sphinx
Blazing Archon is better than Stormide Leviathan only vs Merfolk (please check other comments in the previous pages) but for all other MUs we already have creatures that are better than both Archon & Leviathan.
Nowadays I'm playing:
- 2x Iona, Shield of Emeria
- 2x Sphinx of the Steel Wind
- 1x Blazing Archon
- 1x Terastodon
- 1x Empyrial Archangel
- 3x DazeQuote:
Originally Posted by Mroova
- 3x Thoughtseize
- 1x Maelstrom Pulse
My 2 cent!
Comeback - thx for at least one constructive reply.
First of all, I don't like the idea of having 2 tutors in deck. I prefer having at least 3 copies of crucial cards, 2 of them sometimes are not enough. It's a great risk that u won't get them when they are needed and You can't rely much on them. I would rather play 3 tutors + 3 LDVs, removing something else, maybe one thoughtseize or something. I would love to run:
3x tutor
3x ldv
4x brainstorm
4x study
But we haven't got enough free slots so i must cut something. 3 studies is something that i should try, but I'm very big fan of that card, it's our 2nd best discard outlet in deck, and I have good memories with old exteded reanimator - there was so many discards (imps, etc). I'm conscious that this deck had far more different playstyle, tempo oriented, without control elements, but...
Let's go further - control elements.
4x Fow
3x Daze
3x Thoughtseize
1x Bounce / Removal
...would be something optimal imo.
Creatures - why so Inkwelless? ;p It's not something must have, but I feel much more confident having at least one badass creature that opponent just can't drop so easy. It can be gamebreaking in many matchups. Your Empyrial is ok, yeah, but we have a sphinx, that can pose a great threat to aggro decks, and fill almost the same niche that Emyprial. What is more, You're playing 2x Sphinx + 1x Angel - isn't that too much? We have favorable matchups with most aggro decks, so I don't see the point.
Inkwell can be also used to cast FoW, when You're playing with something that it's useless (very rarely).
Okay, so that's something I would like to test now.
2x Ionna
1x Spinx
1x Inkwell
1x Archon / Stormtide
1x Terastodon
4x Fow
4x Daze
2x Thoughtseize
1x Bounce / Removal
4x Brainstorm
3x Study
3x Tutor
3x LDV
4x Reanimate
4x Exhume
1x Show and Tell
4x Entomb
17x Land
I'm kinda disappoint that I don't have 3rd Thoughtseize. I can always remove maindecked control silver bullet to raise the mentioned card copies, but I'll give it a try as it is now. I'm missing also the complet of studies, but I'm playing only 6 reanimate targets, so it won't be so favorable in my build.
I would love to hear more replies and tips from Ya. Take care.
Stormtide Leviathan is bad, as comeback pointed out. Archon is your merfolk hose, no point in giving that up. I really like the 2nd sphinx maindeck, your never sad to see him. He's especially great when you have to go the reanimate route. I'd definitely make sure your "bounce/removal" slot is a sorcery to get the most out of Personal Tutor. I've been having sucess with maelstrom pulse, but eye of nowhere is always an option. I also like to run at least 1 show and tell maindeck for those random matches where your opponent is maindecking awkward gravehate or you need to get something out of your hand.
I have Show and Tell maindecked :)
My silver bullet of choice is Turbulent Dreams, especially that I'm only poor, humble student-kin and i spend money mainly on beer and bread, not on G splash :D
I'm glad with that decklist, the only thing may be removing 1 Daze or something and getting the 7th creature, maybe 2nd Sphinx.
Thx for reply, cheers.
Good call, missed the show and tell =)Quote:
Originally Posted by Mroova
And turbulent dreams def works
What is the motivation to play "Maelstrom Pulse", I tend to say that 4 copies of Daze is better. Maybe ETrue or WipeAway.
With "Pulse" the mana base is affected like this (8 fetch vs 10 fetch):
4 Underground Sea
4 Polluted Delta
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Swamp
1 Island
1 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
versus
4 Underground Sea
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Polluted Delta
2 Swamp
1 Island
Its sorcery speed, so its tutorable with Personal Tutor, it destroys multiple copies of hate, and its 3cmc gets around counterbalance nicely. Wipe away and etruth are both instant speed, so you need to luck draw into them. With personal tutor, you have more virtual copies of all the sorceries in your deck. Also, the green manabase gives us more board options, such as kgrip or nature's claim.Quote:
Originally Posted by inside88
Thanks for you reply JonBarder, seen like that i'm also agree ;-)
The optimum list looks like :
4 Underground Sea
4 Polluted Delta
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Swamp
1 Island
1 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
17
1 Sphinx of the Steel Wind
1 Inkwell Leviathan
1 Blazing Archon
1 Terastodon
2 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 It That Betrays
7
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
3 Thoughtseize
1 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Entomb
4 Exhume
4 Reanimate
1 Show and Tell
4 Brainstorm
3 Careful Study
3 Lim-Dul's Vault
2 Personal Tutor
This thread needs a reboot, desperately.
The lists in the OP look absolutely nothing like and play absolutely nothing like B/U Reanimator lists.
Now with MT's banning, the deck has undergone another transformation that look even more different from the lists in the OP.
The deck needs a new OP and since the thread starter is no where to be found, someone else here should make a new B/U Reanimator thread with updated tournament winning lists and indepth discussions on the merits of different cards the deck could play maindeck and sideboard.
It could cover everything from standard LDV and PT lists, to more consistent but less flexible Ideas Unbound + Animate Dead lists, and controllish Intuition lists.
Srsly, noone is playing Reanimator nowadays? Cmon ;p
I found new decklist on deckcheck.net. Guy wasn't playing both Tutors and LDVs, but but he brung a great ability to dig and cantrip. Personally I think it sucks, but maybe someone will have a diffrent view on that.
Well noone in playing reanimator nowdays it's something near to reality... still the few peoples that still believe in this deck are having good results.
Maybe because it's an unexpected MU after the banning or maybe because it's still a really strong deck still able to shine in the actual meta.
Here are a few results between July & August:
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=37624
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=37429
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=37341
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=37226
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=36905
Personally i'm testing the deck in the last 2 weeks using the following list (very similar to Kessler/MtgDucks one):
4 Underground Sea
4 Polluted Delta
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Swamp
1 Island
1 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
2 Sphinx of the Steel Wind (or a 1/1 split with Terastodon)
1 Inkwell Leviathan
1 Blazing Archon
3 Iona, Shield of Emeria
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
3 Thoughtseize
4 Entomb
4 Exhume
4 Reanimate
1 Show and Tell
1 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Brainstorm
3 Careful Study
3 Lim-Dul's Vault
2 Personal Tutor
SB:
3 Spell Pierce
3 Duress
3 Pithing Needle
2 Perish
3 Ravenous Trap
1 Terastodon
Tested with some friends and "sadly" sometimes on MWS and till now the results are quite good:
UR Sneakattack (6-0)
UBG Landeed (4-2)
UWb Landstill (4-1)
Merfolks (11-1) (everybody are in merfolk frenzy, also the retards, so don't take this mixedgrilledfishes as a good MU%)
Zoo (5-1)
Gobs RB (4-1)
TPS (3-1)
URG Tempo (3-3)
ProBant (4-1)
CBthopter (4-2)
Madness (4-1)
Burn (2-0)
Belcher (2-0)
WStax (4-2)
We are able to get the "NUTS" hand like before the banning and w/o mystical we are still able to reanimate protected fatties still on turn3 with protection backup...
So... where is the problem with this deck actually :S?
Probably people just got totally pissed by the banning and dumped it, i did that too 2 months ago... (nearly threw the deck out of my window in that morning Q_Q...) and probably was wrong ^_^
I know.
There was a ton of innovative ideas posted from Pages 84-88 that seemed like they had potential.
Everything from Hapless Researcher to Ideas Unbound and even Glimpse!? It's strange that people abandoned all attempts at innovation and settled on simply swapping Mystical Tutor for Lim Dul's Vault. I think even Hedron Crab has potential, acting as Entomb 5-8.
Hell just take the preban Reanimator list and swap the Mystical Tutors out for 4 Ponder, and the deck would still win fairly often.
It's a loss but certainly not a crippling one.
It is rather crippling.Quote:
Originally Posted by Clark Kant
The reanimation engine is mostly intact but we lost speed and consistency.
Furthermore, m tutor allows for singleton silver bullets which we do no longer have.
Hapless Researcher was one of the choices during extended when we had access to vampiric tutors. IU is probably there to dig deep.
As for crab, relying on land drops to get it done doesn't seem too consistent to me.
4 ponder doesn't really substitute, more of a mixture of ponder, ldv and/or pt.
about loosing speed: true we are a bit slower but we still have high chances to have nutty hands like before, even when we had MTutor if we didnt had the nutty hand most of the times we were going to reanimate on T3, like now.
Consider also that the meta is a bit slower now besides combos (and vs combo personally i never had problems with 4fow 3daze 3thoughtseize MD + 3Duress&Pierce SB) and that the Ramping deck of the moment (Merfolk UB) cant asnwer to a resolved blazing archon.
about consistency: rather than consistency the deck lost resilience (silver bullets from SB), tho i think we actually >>gained<< in consistency since with LDV we are able to restart easily than with the good old MT, sure it's slower but gives you the possibily to create "restart"-piles that MT wasn't able to.
I agree to a certain extent. I think the deck definitely lost some speed (its more of a turn 3-4 deck as opposed to turn 2-3) but we definitely gained consistency with LDV. It allows to you find ANY cards you need, as well as usually 2-3 other "useful" cards. Goblins are also starting to drop black for green which is a huge benefit. The problem is that (at least in my meta) new horizons has gotten a lot more popular, and its a pretty shitty matchup. Therefore its not really worth playing the deck. But if your meta is different, especially fish heavy, the deck is definitely playable.
I highly disagree with the fact that we cannot use "silver bullets", most new lists pack LDV, which allows us to carefully add silver bullets to our sideboard.
Extract/sadistic sacrament isn't a gamewinner anymore.
But you can still tutor for a singleton null rod,show and tell, krosan grip, random fattie, llawan, tormod's crypt, perish and what not.
Most of the time, I never used MT to set up a combo right in the beginning, that happened rarely. When I did cast mystical late-game, it was a game-winner!
With a slower deck goblins become a bigger problem. As expected that's why I refuse to play a slower deck just because it can abuse personal tutor at that point. I still run a low-land, 4 lotus petal build and 4 iona, because it remains explosive, pushing out those first to second drop fatties.
Goblins aren't that much of a problem,either splash or no splash.
About new horizons, if you give them 3-4 turns, then yes they become a pain in the ass. Possible ways to win? take their creatures, They don't have a lot of them, and the ammount of protection they have is limited. an inkwell or iona (white) should seal the deal quite fast. unless they drop double tarmogoyf, then things get messy as always.