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I feel that this is relevant. The discussion over what role this deck takes affects what cards are played in the deck as well as what cards do not deserve space in the deck.Quote:
Originally Posted by pippo84
Similarly, I would agree a strength in this deck is the ability to choose between roles. I would argue similarly that this is also the decks greatest weakness; the decks inability to devote itself strongly to any one role.
If you're cutting Standstills just play Tempo Thresh. It's a better deck if you're not going to go with the whole Standstill plan for this meta. Daze is a card I personally love and would never think about dropping below 3. You must remember this deck can function on pretty much 2 mana a lot of the time. Daze doesn't really hurt unless you're trying to drop a Trinket Mage or something. I will agree it's pretty terrible late game and pretty garbage against control sometimes. It's vital towards complementing our mana denial strategy as well as shutting down early explosive plays. Between Nought possible getting killed and FoW...Shoal isn't really an option unless you want to accept the fact you need a Standstill to win no matter what. The rule I'm starting to figure out in this deck is you either want to run 3/4 Daze or no Daze...as Tom already figured out. If you REALLY dislike Daze in this deck run Spell Pierce or Lightning Bolt in its place.
Has anyone tried out Firespout maindeck much? Did anyone actually test it throughly?
I fiddled around with my current UR build and finally got my Playset Lighting bolts in the Mainboard giving me 4 additional sideboard slots, heres the list i wanna try next month:
3 Dreadnought
3 Trinket Mage
2 Divining Top
3 Counterbalance
3 Daze
3 Spell Snare
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Force of Will
4 Standstill
1 Engineered Explosives
4 Stifle
1 Trickbind
1 Crucible of Worlds
4 Brainstorm
4 Mishras Factory
3 Wasteland
3 Volcanic Island
1 Tropical Island
4 Scalding tarn
2 Polluted Delta
4 Island
Sideboard:
2 Control Magic (maybe ill take sowers)
1 Engineered Explosives
3 Firespout
1 Ancient grudge
1 Spell Snare
3 Pyroblast
1 Rushing River
2 Blood Moon
1 Tormod's Crypt
-> I also agree 61 cards is fine but the card #61 should have CC 1~2
Misdirection basically just hits removal and counters during a counterwar, that's actually not what I wanted Shoal to do, I wanted to counter early threats like 1st Turn Lackeys and Aether Vials to efficiently stick a 2nd Turn Standstill to the board.Quote:
Originally Posted by J.V.
Although Dreadstill has got a strong earlygame due to Daze, the 1st Turn is still the most critical imho and this critical state is not fixed by Daze as you are forced to bounce your land and therefore extend that critical state by 1 whole turn, except if you have Spell Snare maybe.
Rood why do you want firespout main deck? I would prefer lightning bolt main because they are more versatile.
I tried them maindeck too but i liked bolts more as they are instands and firespouts do their job post board where we want it.Quote:
Originally Posted by pippo84
rood iv tried it maindeck but i didnt test it really well so my results arent that good.iv been thinking about adding vcliques in the deck drop a daze and idk what else maybe a nought or something.it ups are 3 count.it is a very good beater.it allows us to check out our opponent and see what they have up there sleave.and like when it comes to kgrip it forces there hand that turn.Quote:
Originally Posted by Roodmistah
http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/l...erbalance.html
this article makes alot of very good points.now seeing that iv been on the dreadstill wagon since it was first invinted by rood i would have a hard time just dropping my deck.but if you are planning on sticking with the Ur version its time we reinvint the deck.like i said i am finding room for vcliques for just that reason.zoo is running rampant we need to find answers for this deck because lets face it with nactle and pridemage they are well positioned to deal with us.
How should we combat them?we could switch to the green version which i really do not want to do.we could start splashing black also for perish.
we have alot of intersting options to us.
For dreadstill to remain a force to be reckoned with we need to find our place in this meta.
Why splash black as we can use hibernation or submerge (beside bolts/firespouts) against them? I also wanna try the clique but the only spells i'd cut for it in my list would be a crucible and bolt #4 but then i will have only 3 dreadnoughts and 4 factory for win :/Quote:
Originally Posted by neckfire
are there any good UGB lists floating around anywhere?
and what about replacing dreadnaught with the Dark Depths combo? it seems more powerful, and less likely to die from removal/counterspells.
lmk what you guys think.
Umm.. Stifle and Wasteland are pretty good against Dark Depths, and they are everywhere.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kanabo
Investing into a big dude is actually kind of shitty right now with all of the removal running around. That is of course, unless that big dude is named Progenitus
i think the depths combo will overfloat like progenitus combo so people will have answers for it definatly. Also Stifle/Trickbind are strong on their own, the hexmage and the depths are poor cards as for their own.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kanabo
for a UBG list i think for the agressive metagame the U/R or U/G/R. I also had some minds on a U/R/B list running dreadnought/tombstalker and terminates beside/over lightning bolts but i think this wouldn't work as well. :rolleyes:
The thing about Natural Order is that you need a green creature... like Goyf or Pridemage or War Monk or Llanowar Elf or Noble Hierarch or Dryad Arbor... and Natural Order... and a green creature... like Progenitus or Loaming Shaman or Hellkite Overlord or Goyf or Woodfall Primus. That seems easy enough to get.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tangle.Wire
Same for the depths combo, they need Wasteland/Stifle/Sinkhole/Vindicate or just the same stuff they could use also on dreadnought like swords, sowers etc.. Also dreadnought can be tinkered by trinket mage and the Dreadnought setup allows running more blue parts than a list with the depths combo would do.Quote:
Originally Posted by lorddotm
Well the thing is, the other combos take two specific cards, and are easily disrupted, while Natural Order is any green creature, and they have to counter it, or kill every single creature you play, in which case they are winning anyways.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tangle.Wire
Natural Order is not only more powerful, but more resilient and versatile, the only problem is that it costs 4 mana total.
A friend of mine built a deck with top-counterbalance, stifle-dreadnought and hexmage-depths and is putting good results with it. But I don't think it's what dreadstill needs.
If you are so preoccupied with zoo put lightning bolts main deck. I don't really see a huge problem with zoo. First match is tought but can be handled. Then you have firespouts and it's much easier.
Just remember a few games against zoo:
stick top+counterbalance, use firespout win.
Use firespout, drop standstill win.
Chain all 3 standstills (lucky) win.
Play normally win.
The list goes on. At least with the ugr version you have goyfs that help alot in this match up.
Btw I have more problems against merfolk than zoo..
totally agree, as i said i packed 4 bolts maindeck last days and its awesome, Merfolk is much harder so i decided to pick the UR list with bolts instead of the Goofy splash and i am very happy with it.Quote:
Originally Posted by pippo84
I agree with pippo here, the deck gets a lot of options after boarding.
To be a little more concrete, based on the more or less agreed on Ugr build, if you want to metagame for Zoo and Merfolk - i would replace the 3 maindeck Spell Snares with Lightning Bolts and maybe the third Nought with a Trinket Mage.
The first change is obvious, Spell Snare could still be run in the board.
About the second change, based on the general "trend" of calling Nought worse in todays metagame, replacing one with a Mage gives you more options, It reduces the propability of starting with a broken quick Nought + counterbackup - but with the high numbers of answers floating around (especially from Zoo), it maybe worthwhile.
If you really want to focus on these matchups, instead of the Mage and 1-2 Bolts - 2-3 Firespouts could be added to the maindeck.
I have a question of my own: i currently run this board for Ugr
1 EE
3 Firespout
2 Grip
2 Bolt
3 REB
2 Crypt
2 Metagame slots (usally the third Bolt and the third Grip or 2 Crucbile if Landstill is played).
I really like this board, but i wonder if it may be a good idea to remove the two Grip and together with the meta slots and add 4 Spell Pierce?
Grip is slow and not as versatile as Pierce. It shines against the mirror and CB decks in general and maybe control. Pierce gives you additional options against STP and Path, i can stop Stax cards before they come down (obv.) and is good against Dragon Stompy (if this is a factor).
It could also be used against Ichorid.
With the many applications the card brings, it could also pose a problem, where you have a card which you could side in against many decks, but toghether with the other cards you bring in, you dont have enough to take out. So in the in it may be better to run the more specialised answers like Grip and e.g. Crucible..
EDIT: If one conclusion could be drawn from the talk about how Dreadstill is getting worse, it is that you should start splashing green for Goyf seriously (better in general) OR at least start playing Spout in the maindeck. Goyfs problem is that he is everywere and therefore not as effective in the offense, which is not that much of a big deal. The bigger problem is if your opponent has Exalted creatures like Pridemage or Hierarch.
Firespout is good against Zoo and Merfolk, but much worse against the rest of the field, also it may be difficult to push through a Spout against a Merfolk player with all these Cursecatchers and Dazes..
Why no SB graveyard hate?Quote:
Originally Posted by J.V.
The second you phase out all your post-board GY hate is the second Ichorid sweeps your tournament and you have egg on your face. It has historically happened every time.Quote:
Originally Posted by OurSerratedDust