-4 Cabal RitualQuote:
Originally Posted by JJ-JKidd
+4 Rite of Flames
-1 Infernal Tutor
+1 Burning Wish
...
I've been testing it from time to time, but haven't run it in a tournament yet.
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-4 Cabal RitualQuote:
Originally Posted by JJ-JKidd
+4 Rite of Flames
-1 Infernal Tutor
+1 Burning Wish
...
I've been testing it from time to time, but haven't run it in a tournament yet.
Whats your SB look like? Burning wish seems like if you are in for one you should be in for them all, due to the changes to the SB required to make it the most effective.Quote:
Originally Posted by Koby
Sideboard is typical for Storm with wish board. You have some removal, EtW, enablers, and extra protection/disruption.
I am just wondering if any1 can help me. I am torn between the UBr build and the UBw build. Is UBw ANT dead? I only see T16 results with UBr builds with Bwish and the occasional Grim Tutor. Here is the UBw list I have been working on:
1 Swamp
2 Island
2 Underground Sea
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Ad Nauseam
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Dark Ritual
4 Duress
4 Brainstorm
2 Preordain
4 Ponder
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Grim Tutor
1 Tundra
1 Scrubland
2 Silence
2 Orim's Chant
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Slaughter Pact
1 Chrome Mox
SB: 4 Dark Confidant
SB: 1 Echoing Truth
SB: 1 Chain of Vapor
SB: 3 Extirpate
SB: 2 Virtue's Ruin
SB: 1 Silence
SB: 1 Chrome Mox
SB: 1 Hurkyl's Recall
SB: 1 Slaughter Pact
The UBr version I have been playing is the one that the spanish players have been getting good results with.
Please help me out, I am currently testing for a GP in a few months and I need to decide on a deck soon. Please dont make me take Dredge :tongue:
thanx,
Slaydo
I would test them both if I were you to see which one you are more comfortable with.Quote:
Originally Posted by slaydo
I think the wish board + past in flames is better than chant and iggy but thats a personal opinion. and if you are stretching for the red at that point (with chants) you may as well just play TES.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Koby
Seems like a bad deal to play a wish board with only one wishQuote:
Originally Posted by Koby
Pretty sure he means its a 4/3 split in favor of Bwish> IT.Quote:
Originally Posted by dillonkbase
@Koby
Is the 4th IT in the board?
for BW > IT > PiF line?
That makes more sense.Quote:
Originally Posted by ThomasDowd
When do you side IT in? if you don't isn't it better to just run a pif main and one in the board?Quote:
Originally Posted by ThomasDowd
Edit: now that I think about it the only reason it was argued in the past to run IT in the board was to BW>IT>AdNauseam, beacuse it's an instant. Otherwise you should just get the sorcery you need from your board.
BW> IT>PiF gives you a tutor to flashback with past in flames to kill them, IF BW is your only action. It is a viable line at minimum 9 mana (need at least a D. Rit in the yard, but reality dictates more rituals than one). it is really only a speed thing, because most of the time you can set up an infernal tutor for value to set up the line if you have one in hand. It is rather frustrating when you produce gobbles of mana but not enough storm and the only tutor you have is BW. Patience may be key here but who knows. sometimes just killing them is what needs to be done.Quote:
Originally Posted by dillonkbase
It depends on the role you want BW to fall into more often as well. Find the anti hate. or Find the action. or Find the kill them.
I personally think it's a waste of a slot in a precious hybrid wish board/realboard sideboard, but some of the corner cases make sense. and if you are on 4 burning wish it becomes much more relevant.
There are arguments both ways and I don't fault either or even it's non inclusion. 7 tutors is good though. 6 might be a reasonable amount in the "slower" UBr lists since you are just trying to discard for a few turns and then kill them instead of going in early.
@ThoamsDowd IT has been better much better SB slot than Past in flames for me because you fetch it in late late game or with IT already in hand, which mean you do not to enter sideboard unless its a real corner situation, it its sad to have ton of mana, BW in hand and cannot kill; on the other hand BW-IT-PIF has same mana requirements as Grim tutor (as you save 1 mana flasbacking the tutor ftw.) the bad is double R slows the deck a ton and I'm still undecided whether its better to play 3BW 3IT / 4IT 2Grims builds... actually I'm 2x Pif MD to compensate for Grims and its excellent
@Slayedo UBw build is dead unless everybody plays SDT for miracles it loses PiF which is not worth the comfort as you can still kill both UW and Threshold just rolling over their counterspells... I don't like the non interactivity of chants as zenith spells problem and I'm strongly attracted to Gitaxian Probe
I dont understand why UBw is dead and chants are sh***. For instance, the mirror is decided by which ever player can combo out fastest. Chant gives you the upper hand and in other matchups can function as a time walk to get the missing combo piece. Leaving out cabal therapy and probe and replacing them with chants (4 MD and 2 side) will leave room to keep anti hate cards which can help storm indirectly and provide answers MD against hatebears.dec and have more room for cantrips. UBr has a lot of tools however testing against RUG tempo shows that it's too slow. Bwish and IT are prime spell snare targets, and that vulnerability isn't good given the fact that spell snare is very very popular currently.Quote:
Originally Posted by
[B
I played the following build at a small tournament (14 players) yesterday. I went a disappointing 2-2.
Land (17):
4 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Scalding Tarn
2 Island
2 Swamp
3 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
Spells (43):
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Brainstorm
4 Preordain
4 Ponder
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Duress
2 Thoughtseize
1 Ad Nauseum
1 Past in Flames
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Grim Tutor
1 Tendrils of Agony
Sideboard:
1 Ad Nauseum
1 Echoing truth
1 Chain of Vapor
2 Slaughter Pact
2 Tormod's Crypt
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Dread of Night
1 Extirpate
Rd 1 - BUG Control. Lost 0-2 due to a play error in g1 and too much countermagic in g2.
Rd 2 - UB Reanimator. Won 2-0 - g1 beat an Iona (unfortunately for my opponent naming blue). G2 duressed his protection and went off unhindered.
Rd 3 - UW control with counterbalance and stoneforge mystic packages in the sideboard. (lost 1-2)
Rd 4 - Affinity - Won 2-0 - G1 completely unhindered and g2 through an irrelevant tormods crypt.
I'm a new storm player so the play errors aren't totally unexpected.
Winning through multiple counterspells (particularly a timely spell snare) is quite challenging. I discussed this with an experienced storm player at the tournament and he did suggest adding chant effects for protection.
Chant-effects aren't "shit". It's just fact that other colors have proven more relevant or powerful for ANT (red does more). Like I said in an earlier post, I run TES, which makes great use out of Chant-effects. But, you have to realize what you're losing also (the ability to dodge Wasteland). It's really a meta-game call. And with the abundance of Maverick like decks, I think I know which one I'm going with... :wink:Quote:
Originally Posted by slaydo
Edit: Maybe I should clarify, I prefer TES against Maverick because of speed and the play-set of Burning Wish's (BW-Infest), not Chant-effects.
This.This is how you beat maverick, the BW plan is so slow and awkward, but it gives you a fighting chance through bears. you just want to kill them and quickly.Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt
Your sideboard is kind of odd, why are you playing Dread of Night? It doesn't kill Teeg or Canonist, only Mother or Runes and Thalia?Quote:
Originally Posted by moose5628
Well. What do you suggest? Is there any other good alternative? Dread seems like a solid option for UB Ant. UBr Ant or TES have their BW targets (Infest, Virtue's Ruin, Pyroclasm). That's why I have been trying to figure out what configuration of an UBr list fits me. TES is not a good option in my metagame right now and I've had problems with it, because it's unstable sometimes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Viridia
I'd recommend 3 Infest in that slot. It seems the best vs maverick. Better than slaughter pact too, as that loses to mother of runes + hatebear.
Did you just agree with me? I honestly can't tell. *laughs* As, this is exactly what I posted (reworded of course).Quote:
Originally Posted by ThomasDowd
By all means, if you can win turn one, do it! But, I don't think I'm as lucky as you. As, hate-bears often hit the field before my turn 2. Which, if we're in game one, can only be answered with BW-Infest... It's janky, but consistent. If you already put them on Maverick (turn one Savannah or plains, ect...), you can prepare for the play by preemptively sticking a Petal or Mox into play to facilitate a turn two BW, into turn three Infest, followed by your combo turn. Nice and janky... But, it works. :wink:
The most relevant point is also to fetch basics when you can. Being cut off is miserable when trying to reach 4 mana for a sweeper vs Thalia.Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt
Good point. TES doesn't have that luxury, obviously. :rolleyes:..Quote:
Originally Posted by Koby
I definitely agree and play one chrome mox main and a second in the board to speed myself up to make the ad naus better and/or turn one gobbos for a bunch. (also the 4th probe is probably the worst card in the deck) i am personally thinking about cutting my departure for a pyroclasm to just buy some time, (they don't always have mom, also one mana less through a thalia, can be relevant) and i'd rather kill all of his dudes than bounce it. still undecided about it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt
cut meltdown the other day, paid for it by playing against mud round one. never again.
I found that the biggest problem with infest or virtue's ruin is that if you keep 1 in the wishboard and 2 into the deck for second game, you increase dramaticaly the risk of being killed by ADN than if you run run pact in that slot.Quote:
Originally Posted by Anselm
I've been reading both the ANT and TES threads, and I'm having trouble seeing the difference between the two. Can anyone help clarify? (I've read the last few pages, so I've seen some mentions of it, but explicit would help)
Hi,my friend. The main difference between ANT and TES is its mana base.Quote:
Originally Posted by Syaoran
ANT is mainly built by blue and black(with little white splash or red splash),so ANT runs basic land and can dodge Wasteland.And TES is always a 4-color storm deck(sometimes even green splash),so TES runs duals/rainbow lands,and no basic lands.
ofc its dangerous to run a deck with no basic lands in Legacy,the format full of stifles and wastelands.
However,rely on rainbow lands and fast mana(Dark ritual and Rite of Flames,and chrome mox ofc)and 8 tutors(4 Infernal Tutor + 4 Burning Wish),TES always goes off faster than ANT.Also,because of wishboard,TES can be more versatile.TES do not always win via Tendrils, a turn 2 Empty the Warrens is also a good choice.
Because TES runs more fast mana,it's not strange TES has few cantrips(4 Brainstorm + 4 Ponder)than ANT does(4 Brainstorm + 4 Ponder + 4 Preordain).So TES is less stable than ANT.
The very Ironical thing about ANT and TES is that "TES depends more on Ad Nauseam than ANT does"(although we all know ANT is named after Ad Nauseam Tendrils).Indeed,with chrome mox in the main deck,TES can always go for a "blind Ad Nauseam"(No mana floating after cast AdN),because "4 chrome mox + 4 Lotus petal' can be a good starting mana.However, if an ANT player tries a 'blind Ad Nauseam",he is more likely to kill himself(with only 4 lotus petal can be starting mana).
In my opinion,ANT does not always cast AdN,and the No.1 storm engine of ANT is Past in Flames/Ill-Gotten Gains. But,the No.1 storm engine of TES is Ad Nauseam.And that is the reason why TES always runs 2 Ad Nauseam in their main deck.
PS:well,to be honest,I am the guy running ANT deck. I have no TES decks.But I think I have the basic knowledge for a Legacy storm deck. If I have misunderstanding in ANT/TES, I am happy if some one can correct it.
Well. One point is not completely correct.
Stifle makes Fetchlands worse, Wasteland nonbasics. ANT plays more fetchlands, TES only nonbasics. So: The more stifles your meta provides the worse ANT gets and the more wastelands your meta has TES is annoying to play.
Apart from that I'd like to mention that ANT has a few different lists.
UB - This is the most wasteland proof list with 4 or 5 basic lands. It does not provide Burning Wish and most likely does not support Past in Flames. It relies a lot on Ad Nauseam against blue Decks and can not find solutions for hatebears game 1. You need Grim Tutors to play it consistently. In Europe it's not very popular for the reasons mentioned above.
UBw - In this variation of ANT you play Orim's Chant and Silence over Duress and Thoughtseize. This improves your Combo matchup and it also helps to use Ill-gotten Gains in blue matchups.
UBr - Most popular Incarnation right now. At least it seems like it. It's propably the most versatile of the three variants and it also provides Past In Flames which helps a lot in matches where you run out of life before you can combo off. I've found that to be very useful when trying to find a solution via Burning Wish while you get bashed by some bears. On the other hand people in Europe tend to play Gitaxian Probe instead of Preordain and Cabal Therapy instead of Thoughtseize. I'm not impressed by Probe, but that's mainly an issue of experience with them I think. Still it's less stable when setting up the combo due to less filtering and mulliganing feels a little like TES.
When you start reading about 10 pages back you might find Decklists and get a better understanding of what we are trying to do with our lists.
Great description! I think that TES is not a DTB due to wasteland and the auge of Maverick which can tutor for it as well. When started to play storm i did it with TES and is very fast but sometimes inestable.
Nowadays i'm running UBr ANT and it's pretty good. In fact i went into a 18 persons tournemnt with it and the deck was so good. Who was not so good was me and my stupid mind with epics fails that cost me the top4. :cry:
But ANT, in my opinion is "the combo deck" actually. Maybe in the same point than dredge.
How do you deal with multiple hate bears and counters and sometimes hatebears + counters. I wasn't a combo player till I started playing High Tide a few months ago and lately I feel like giving ANT a try. But even with the resiliency of High Tide I find it hard to fight through the combo hate post sideboard games. Is ANT just fast enough to sail past all that because it certainly is not as defensive and resilient as High Tide.Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldenCid
Well...in my line of opinion ANT and DRedge are the most "hated" decks. Respecting to ANT you can find:Quote:
Originally Posted by bilb_o
Mindbreak Trap
Surgical Extraction
Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
Thorn of Amethyst
Ethersworn Canonist
(all can be played by maverick)
+
Counter spells
I run 6 discard effects MD, an additional 1 in the side, and bear killing cards as wish target + slaughter pact and bouncer spells.
It's even hard but with the exception for maverick a combination of counter spells + permanent hate stuff is difficult to see. Also i side in empty the warrens which can't be fight easily by those decks if i can't get a killing tendrils soon.
There's no general answer to that. Duress package to fight counters and Wish+Sweeper for the bears. It's not that simple usually, but thats pretty much how it goes. It's like fighting hate with high tide. Instead of Countering you just let them discard and instead of bouncing you destroy things or bounce them. Burning wish does not do the same thing like Cunning in UBr ANT, but it does find solutions and the real bombs. Cunning does not find you Spirals. It's basically the same thing but different purpose I guess. (I'm not a Hightide Pro though.)Quote:
Originally Posted by bilb_o
Edit:
GoldenCid put it pretty straight. EtW shines when it comes down early enough. Be sure it can't be raced by anything you know of and most of the time it's just great.
Hello,
I had a question pertaining to the burning wish version of this deck. I currently have been running it card for card matching this
maindeckhttp://manainfinito.com/articulos/legacy/listas-top8-lcl-2012-abril
(the one that placed 7th although i believe the one that placed 8th isn't far off from it.) and have been feeling that burning wish is rather underpowered in the deck compaired to grim tutor. does anyone here on the thread have any insight into the deck and would like to share their opinion between the two. (truly what it comes down to, does running this deck with burning wish mean you are just saving money and choosing to run an inferior version or does burning wish have it's own strengths.)
Some insight would be greatly appreciated
Not an expert but with the Burning Wish you get a wishboard which gives you silver bullets for specific situations and more versatility.
Dude, BW gives you direct G1 access to 15 additional cards in your board which is almost essential against Maverick (hatebear sweepers), RUG / Canadian Threshold (Empty the Warrens), Stax & Affinity (Shattering Spree, Meltdown) and miscallenous control decks (various flexible win conditions) and it considerably reduces the risk of losing due to bad sideboarding. Compared to Grim Tutor, BW does NOT require you to maindeck a "solution package". I personally prefer UBr Therapy list with Past in Flames & 3x Burning Wish, but I would recommend to try both builds until you become completely sold on PiF & BW. I would play Grim Tutor only in pure UB build with conceptual focus on maximum speed, but not in my metagame consisting heavily of the above-mentioned decks.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rekk
In fact Grim Tutor is best of the bad tutors for the deck and is definitely superior to BW in vacuum, unfortunately with Thalia becoming real problem BW is necessary evil... I've played both deck enough to tell the difference.. the problem s RR you need to for PIF MD kill and 1 Infernal Tutor you are short MD to do that... you are slower and weaker to spellsnare and mana denial.. on the other hand you are better % with Ad Nauseam and Extirpate...personally I'd prefer Grim version in larger tournaments BW in locals
basically you're reducing speed and consistency for versatility you would not normally need... because you randomly lose to Maverick you worsen you other top 3 match-ups, which I recommend to compensate with 2nd PiF MD instead of SB
overall its more complicated and depends on play style, you better test both
They definitely both have their own strengths -- Basically, with Burning Wish, you get a lot more Tutor power (usually 4 BW + 4 IT -- you can't run more than 2 Grim Tutor, as they are absolutely awful in multiples), and you can G1 ETW or G1 deal with hatebears.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rekk
With Grim Tutor, you get an actual 15 card sideboard, and you can PiF/IGG or Ad Nauseam with it, where BW can be a little awkward if you don't have additional business in hand, as it doesn't play well with PiF and can't grab Ad Naus.
You can probably try both versions and see which you like more, I don't think either one is truly better. I prefer Grim Tutor, because I like having a sideboard...but having straight no outs to a G1 hate bear has definitely been awkward at times, esp. since Thalia is seeing quite a lot of play now.
EDIT:
Also, for the record, I don't think there is any reason to run straight U/B anymore unless there are 0 blue decks in your meta. We run enough artifact mana that generating a single R for PiF is almost never an issue -- I support PiF off a single Volcanic (so the additional vulnerability to Wasteland is negligible) and it's never been an issue for me to play PiF. But, I think there is certainly an argument for Grim Tutor in a U/B list splashing R for PiF.
It has been a while since I touched Legacy and a VERY long time since I played TES or ANT, "recently" I picked up Stoneblade and its ilk but am looking to play storm at this weekends SCG open which leads me to my question---Why is ANT running Cabal Therapy now?
I assume it is because it saves life against casting a TSeize but then why over Inquisition?
If you don't run Inquistion because you are so afraid of FoW then isn't the utility of TSeize worth the life loss?
Would it make sense to mix up the discard package in the board so that game 2 and 3 you can adjust discard for maximum efficeny?
Thanks for the input guys.
I've been playing Therapy main for about 6 months and I'm still not 100% sold on it -- Gitaxian Probe is quite good, and it would take a lot to convince me that Preordain is better in that slot, and Therapy is rarely blind when you have 4 Discard + 3-4 Probe.Quote:
Originally Posted by nodahero
For what it's worth, I tested Thoughtseize pretty extensively, and I definitely don't think the deck can support Thoughtseize main unless you cut Ad Naus from the main (yes, Gitaxian Probe also eats at your life - but we generally need to cast all of our discard spells to win the game, where we can just pay mana or not cast our probes).
I tried Inquisition for a bit in the slot, and I wasn't a huge fan, as I really don't like having only 4 ways to interact with Force.
Also -- as far as mixing it up, I generally run 3-4 Thoughtseize in the sideboard, and I board them in quite often (against RUG, Maverick, U/W, and most control decks) -- so it's very possible they should just be main and I should accept that Ad Naus is not going to be a viable out most games.
I play the "spanish" UBr list with 4 Burning Wish and 3Infernal Main. I like the list a lot right now. Most matchups except some blue decks are favorable. Unfortunately Avacyn restored brought us nothing new except for some "enemies".
Yesterday a friend and I played some legacy. Mainly to try out Griselbrand in his SneakShow list. I personally wanted to see it's impact on the matchup since Storm is all I play in Legacy. Jin Gitaxias has been quite a big deal, but I was not sure how Griselbrand turns out, since we can try to play around him with a tendrils in hand and using discard offensively. Disrupting their combo has become easier with cabal therapy. At least my mate hates the card a lot. :>
My list is pretty much like the spanish ones, but I play 4 Burning Wish main and 1 sideboard to have the option of tutor chaining and PiF gets a little better. It's also quite versatile.
Turns out I still win about 60% preboard and depending on his sideboard it's about 50/50. Griselbrand however is a pain. As soon as he lands one it's incredibly hard to beat SneakShow. Usually you can still win after he lands ulamog with sneak attack. Griselbrand usually wins the game on the spot when he comes via sneak. Finding Emrakul and Petal is just game when he has 15life of more to draw into them.
Another Problem is the short amount of time you have to combo off. It's been a problem for me to figure out the right moment ever since I played against the Deck. Griselbrand is basically a win for them soming turn 1, 2 or 3. It's even harder to decide when his win is quite random in number of turns. Gitaxian Probe clearly does a lot of work gathering the information since it increases the amount of such effects to 11.
However I was quite amused how often it's reasonable to disrupt his hand. T1 Probe, Swamp, Therapy naming Emrakul (he discards 2), Petal, Therapy naming Griselbrand (discrads 2) was just awesome enough. Here's another example why I love Burning wish. I shortly after get EtW and have 8 Goblins on the board. Sacrificing your hand to do the same to him is very good.
So what kind of discard suite are you suggesting? Im currently testing 4 Duress, 2 IoK and a singleton Thoughtseize plus I have an 1 IoK and 1 Thoughtseize SB.Quote:
Originally Posted by aaronm678
My SB package also has 3 Dread of Night since Maverick and DnT is so rampant in our meta.
I have started testing 4 duress 3 thoughtseize main, 1 seize 2 iok side, and switching 3 probes main to preordain.Quote:
Originally Posted by JJ_JKidd
I haven't played against enough variety yet to determine if this is better than what I previously ran (4 duress 3 therapy main, 3-4 thoughtseize in the sb) - but this configuration feels a bit better vs RUG so far (switching probe to preordain is nice, and rarely does the life from thoughtseize matter, as you rarely ad naus this match anyway)
This ANT deck just finished 19th at SCG Orlando. Can someone please explain the sideboard to me?
The Bobs I get (though I don't run them myself), the bounce/Pact split is fine, but V-Cliques, Jace, and Karn are blowing my mind. I think some argument can be made for a disruption spell that comes attached to a 3/1 flier, but I don't think I have ever been in a situation with ANT where I thought "Man, I'd really like to go all-in on a seven-mana Vindicate machine."