Sorry to disappointing you but no it's not...Quote:
Originally Posted by Smash10101
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Sorry to disappointing you but no it's not...Quote:
Originally Posted by Smash10101
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralf
PoN "eat" an opponent's counter without costing mana or added cards like fow. If you play against a tempo deck, the 2nd and 3rd game they bring in ReBs and/or flusterstorm and have a big number of permission spells. If, when you go off, you are short on lands, they'll counter your untapper, if you are ok with lands, then they'll go for the business spell (meditate/DTT). So, if you start your spell chain in response of a random opponent's spell, you have PoN for their first counter and this helps you to "enable" the trap if they have the second one or more. You can do the same with any combo piece, ofc, but it will cost you mana. It depends on the situation.
Years ago, when there wasn't PoN, we used to play 1-2 copy of "dispel" for this purpose.
It's written somewhere in the thread. I think also Seraphus played something like this in the past but maybe I'm wrong.
Mindbreak Trap was released more recently than Pact of Negation.Quote:
Originally Posted by Il_fabious
Not to mention the fact that Dispel is the newest of them all.
Maybe you are trying to say something else but formulated it rather clumsily?
Take some time and read my last tournament report. :cool:Quote:
Originally Posted by Il_fabious
@Feline mainly and to whom may interest:
Intro:
Well, I am a Storm player and of course long time ago in the David Gearhearth Era I played Solidarity wrecking the rest of decks... it was among all Storm Decks my favourite one (I played DDFT, TES, ANT ,TNT....), then the meta changed and was almost impossible to win with that Deck... BUT suddently I saw you - Feline doing very well in a tournament so thanks a lot - I sometimes looked at the post in this thread but the only improvement was the Snaps Added which seemed to me not very relevant, and suddently Dig Through Time appeared, I just forgot Solidarity existed and didn't notice this card was a GREAT improvement to the deck.
Trying to improve the Deck:
Well, A thing I love is reaching my own conclusions about a deck and noticing somebody by there reach also the same conclusions,
At first glance, and surprinsingly I'm 99% agree on the Base, the only thing I dislike is having 19 Lands and not 4th FoW so when testing this was the only change I made to the base.
The Original List had this numbers and sure sometimes I needed to Impulse for Land but this is something I can afford. In terms of Numbers the unique difference with D.G. List is that you don't play remand - if you consider it as a +0.5 or +0.X cantrip, because if the opponent doesn't play spells you are in the exact same position as your Build but -1Land.
One thing I noticed was the super power of Snaps and DTT.
Well Sure I prefer Opt versus Peek but Opt is not a super cantrip so my thought process was: well what happens if I use a cantrip to maximize both DTT and Snaps?
It would be wonderfull if you could play DTT on 3rd turn right?
Therefore a Testing Scenario which is giving me good results on the paper is substituing 4 Opt and include 4 Mental Note (or T.Scour)
- M.Note is good for scenarios in which you Meditate, then B.S. and M.Note to put the top 2 shitty cards in G.Y.
- on 3rd turn if you play a fetch and a B.S OR Impulse AND a M.N. you will be able to play DTT! sounds great
- it can be even an upside to put a Tide in the G.Y. as you can next Snap to Tide and then Reset! as you advance deeper with M.N than with Opt
- it also has synergy with Snaps as mentioned.
Well for me it is clear and the next step could be maybe - better 4DTT and 3 Meditate in base then?
Related to the Side, I'm not a fan of diluting the strategy by adding Vendilions, I would prefer to add more PoN and Swan Songs and Wipe Away maybe, but I'm not either the person to argue the opposite...
Questions:
Could you tell me the Side strategy you have vs the Diff decks in the meta or a link to this? and opinions about this proposal?
Thanks for your Build Feline!
Keep Storming!
Well for now it seems there's 3 ways I could go about it.
Doing the Mental Note / Thought Scour setup
The Remand / Brain Freeze setup
The Snapcaster Mage / Snap setup.
All I know is I don't even like Peek because it doesn't dig, just draws a card basically, where as with Opt at least I'm scrying for 1 first. So I never went the Thought Scour / Mental Note route.
I tried Remand / No Snap/Snapcaster Mage tricks but after enough time I switched to Snapcaster Mage because it helped me resolve more High Tides faster. As well as just being able to flashback anything in the Graveyard.
I will likely try a few more runs with this deck at the Premier IQ's since that's the thing now, as I still want to attain the goal of making a top 16+ finish with Reset High Tide at some large scale event if I can.
As far as what I was doing where with sideboarding, I'd usually bring in Vendilion Clique against most strategies, just about all of them really. (I wouldn't against Belcher/All Spells however, lol, it's just too darned slow) Vendilion Clique was for blocking hate bears, potentially buying lots of time if you blocked their only creature (Like a flipped Delver) then they had to draw into another threat. I'd cut Flusterstorms for them against some match ups where the card was weaker. Other times I'd cut the Snaps, unless they had White which meant potential hatebears (Meddling Mage / Thalia / Gaddock Teeg etc.) But still bring in Vendilion Clique. I'd also cut 1 Wish if I was bringing in any of the kill condition to the maindeck from the sideboard.
I am a lot less experienced with this deck however, so don't take what I'm saying as concrete as I'm not even 100% on everything. Until I feel comfortable enough with a specific setup I keep all options open. Right now my "Solidarity Deck" is actually over 100 cards. Even though I'm not using them I still have stuff in a "more than the 75 pile" like the Remands I'm not using, the 4th Snapcaster Mage, even Counterspell & Peek even though I'm not leaning toward running either of those right now.
75 pages behind:
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...l=1#post590209
please (no disrespect to you feline) but because an American does something with the deck now it's fashionable to play solidarity?!
I am never right, but I'm pretty sure I am not wrong many times...
11 Island
2 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
2 Misty Rainforest
4 High Tide
4 Reset
2 Flusterstorm
2 Force of Will
2 Pact of Negation
4 Brainstorm
2 Dig Through Time
2 Opt
2 Peek
2 Snap
2 Snapcaster Mage
3 Repeal
3 Remand
4 Meditate
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Blue Sun's Zenith
1 Brain Freeze
2 Impulse ---------------------------------------------------- I WAS WRONG WE NEED THEM ------------------------------------------------------
SB: 3 Ravenous Trap
SB: 2 Mindbreak Trap
SB: 3 Rebuild
SB: 3 Wipe Away
SB: 1 Force of Will
SB: 1 Flusterstorm
SB: 2 Annul
Wanna me to do a breackdown of the list?
Gotta say Seraphus I don't know what the hell you are talking about. I almost never do, your posts are incomprehensible. Doesn't help much when you post a list literally every 3 posts. Anyhow...
On the land count, I've always felt better with 19. The deck did not have 19 in it's inception, and people have tested with even less lands (I remember Ben toying around with cutting the 18th land for a Snap). I don't think it was a good idea then, and I don't think it's a good idea now. If Ponder and Preordain were instants then hell yeah, but they aren't and our cantrips are weak. I've also developed some love for Peek after playing with G. Probe in other storm decks, and I don't feel comfortable running any less than 4 Opts if I'm at 18 lands. The land counts is actually one of the things that kept me from playing Peek, but after reading over arguements, and playing with TES a lot, I decided for myself that Peek is indeed the real deal. The fewer lands, the better off you are going to be when your forced to combo off early, as you will have dead draws. I feel like playing to Solidarity's strengths is a better option though, and rather focus on making a land-drop every single turn without breaking a sweat.
Feline, made a post a little ago asking why you cut Brain Freeze for Flusterstorm, besides the obvious having a reactive counterspell (that is abusable with Snapcaster) vs having a kill spell. Brain Freeze is so much more than a kill spell in the deck. Be cool to further the discussion and talk about the benefits of running some main-deck Brain Freezes. Maybe go back and read it, yeah? Kinda pointless asking others this question since they would probably post yout list for reference.
I'll start it off; synergy with Brainstorm, turns on Dig through Time, can be used to play around CB-Top, saves sideboard space, and most importantly allows you win small rather than chain draw spell after draw spell. I feel that once you are at the point of going Wish>Freeze, or Wish>Snapcaster>Freeze>Snapcaster trigger target Freeze>Freeze you have enough mana and/or storm to just Stroke somebody out. Running some Freezes in the main-decks allow you to win small, and though anything is possible with this deck I feel like having smaller spell chains is a benefit in any storm deck, especially when dealing with assholes who cast boatloads of disruption.
Pelikundo, I feel that Thought Scour is good, but not better than Opt or Peek. Opt has scry 1, in a world of crap instant speed cantrips, which isn't very impressive but it is something. Peek lets you well, peek, and in recent years I'm pretty sure all of Legacy, especially combo players, have noted just how powerful that effect is. Gitaxian Probe isn't so popular because it's a Street Wraith that adds 1 storm. It's popular because it gives you vital information, allowing combo decks to establish their role in match-ups. I'll add that this effect is especially good in this deck, barring an active top Top, knowing what your opponent has means knowing in what order to cast your spells.
If you have any doubts on Opt, I get it. Somebody posted some numbers they crunched displaying the difference between Opt and other cantrips. Besides being neat, it offers hard evidence that Opt does indeed dig "more". I remember Ben hated Opt for as long as I remember, and was very, very outspoken against it, and for a long time refused to acknoledge it conceivably being a better card than Peek or VoB. For someone who doesn't have a numbers background it was hard putting my experience into some sort of forumula that could make sense, but thankfully someone came along and did it for me. What I'm trying to say is that I'm sure you don't want someone to tell you "Run Opt, it digs better. I've played this deck for XX amount of time, trust me" but you want some hard numbers showing you the difference between card A and card B. Someone has crunched the numbres though, and it's there for all of us to read. If you can't find it ask me and I'll get off my bum and fish the post out. Pretty sure the person who posted it was named TheRock
"Feline, made a post a little ago asking why you cut Brain Freeze for Flusterstorm, besides the obvious having a reactive counterspell (that is abusable with Snapcaster) vs having a kill spell. Brain Freeze is so much more than a kill spell in the deck. Be cool to further the discussion and talk about the benefits of running some main-deck Brain Freezes. Maybe go back and read it, yeah? Kinda pointless asking others this question since they would probably post yout list for reference."
1- Feline didn't do anything asking me whatsoever...
2- the discussion was about raising the fucking number of Brain freezes (which I was against it and I gave my reasons - someone said that vs cb it was a good idea because of a process that some years ago I mention here "trigger cleansing" was what I called it, which is useless with Flusterstorm on the other side - so now maybe you go back and read it; oh no wait I will make a brief explanation: Brain Freeze is a card that no longer brings cantrip or cardadvantage (no FoI), BF doesn't have any purpose to set the combo, to protect it or to make it work - use BF to get ride off BS cards? LOL after the extripate, surgical debate using a BF for nothing sounds good. Using it for enhance DTT? Why do you need to enhance a card that is per si already super powerful? (Still Following me?! Or I do keep saying something " incomprehensible"? Wanna me to draw it?)
As for your so called small chain it's all very cool except when you have an actual opponent interacting with you...
I challenge you to read the last 100 pages of the thread and point out who have been developing this deck and dedicating more time to it than me?!
Still lost man. I don't really get what point one or two are adressing. Just a bunch of babble and curse words. Didn't mean to cause such offense, as I know from lurking this thread for so many years that you've been told before by Sourcers and moderators alike to use a spell check and some better grammar as it is straining to make sense of your words. Thought I'd reiterate the sentiment.
On that list bit of point b, Brain Freeze still has some functionality outside of being the kill card, unlike Tendrils of Agony. Yeah, no BF>FoI, but this deck hasn't mained FoI for the good part of the last 5 years, and still ran Brain Freeze main. I would make the arguement that we all could have been running Fluster>Freeze all along when lists got teched and started rocking 4 Snapcasters main. But for some reason (not a magical, mystical one but a logical one, I hope) decided to keep jamming Brain Freeze in the main. Why? Because the deck can win small. Because there are opponents interacting with us that won't let us go off into some ridiculous spell chain where I'm sitting on triple tide and Stroking someone for 150 cards. Sometimes it's just Freeze, Freeze, pass the turn, die on your draw step. In a way you give that away by not maining Brain Freeze. Anyhow, I've repeated myself too many times. I'm off to do some testing.
And, I've never run into a Miracles deck main-decking Flusterstorm. And if they are siding it they still have to draw it, and hold onto it until the penultimate Brain Freeze. The whole situation is so dependant on the game state that it isn't worth speculating it much, but saying you can't use Brain Freeze to go around CB-Top anymore because of Flusterstorm is hyperbole.
ps; go stretch your epeen elsewhere. I just wanna talk about Solidarity. I can give a crap what your Source handle is, or post number is.
Ignore Seraphus. He's not even running 4 impulse and 4 opt yet he runs 3 repeal maindeck. All repeal does is react to what the opponent does or bounce snapcaster to replay/spend all the mana's to flashback another spell with snapcaster. It is hideous in this strategy. 17 land? Less than 4 opt? How is that working out for you in terms of hitting land drops? Missing land drops with repeal in hand sounds as appealing as death by firing squad. You run less than 4 dig through time. All the 'development' you've done on the deck means close to nothing as dig through time turned this archetype on its head/changed how you can build the deck drastically. Lists are flying everywhere yet I'd bet a good amount of money that we haven't found the optimal list yet. What I'm sure of after playing with dig through time is that it is an auto 4 of in the 75 because it IS the best draw spell in the deck and not meditate. Meditate gets more raw cards yet one of them is virtually guaranteed to be a land/brick and the other cards aren't guaranteed to do anything especially in your list where you'll draw some pile of cards like repeal, land, force, and peek. Tell me how confident you are in those 4. Dig looks 3 cards deeper, bottoms the chaff, and gets you the 2 best cards in your top 7 assuming you are a competent pilot who takes the correct line. Oh and it costs 1 mana less and some cards lying around in your bin. As setup cards meditate is vastly inferior as well since timewalking yourself is something you don't want to willingly do in legacy or any format typically and quite often makes you discard anyways/it isn't a draw 4 it's a draw 3, 2, or 1. He still stands by the 6 fetchland ideology as well, which is quite outdated with dig in the picture and very little stifles running around if any/not getting punished that way. The chances of you needing more than 8 land in play with solidarity are slim as any solidarity player worth his salt with 8+ lands in play should probably win the game.
Miracles never maindecks flusterstorm unless you're talking about some localized list that someone runs in a VERY combo heavy meta/sure you can maindeck flusterstorm. Look at Schoneggers and Lossetts builds' of miracles. No maindeck flusterstorms and those are the lists that have put up results. You playtest against what you expect to run into in a tournament setting, not some crazy storm hating miracles deck that is inbred due to your legacy gauntlet testing.
Posting a list every 3 posts isn't helping anyone. If you're changing your list that often I seriously doubt you're getting in enough testing with the previous list posted unless you're actually just playtesting this deck 40+ hours a week/I have no idea what's wrong with you or the person you're playtesting with as playtesting that much for legacy is not remotely worth most peoples' time and playing solidarity that many hours a week just makes you sound like a masochist. Unless you're actually just developing trash/oh my god this list sucks so let's make a new list and toss the old one into the incinerator.
I don't play peek at all. It is training wheels in this deck. There's a huge difference between peek and probe other than the sorcery/instant speed difference of course. One costs zero mana and is one of the most broken cards they've printed in the past 10 years. The other costs a mana and has not seen any widespread success since psychatog ruled centerstage and I can't quite recall if it even saw widespread success then. The card is garbage in terms of looking for lands and in terms of how much countermagic the opponent has if they know what to counter/card draw like meditate/dig instead of mana and cantrips it all comes down to how much countermagic you have versus what they have. If they really have more countermagic than you well tough luck or try to bait. I've never really wanted to see the hand of my opponents out of this deck unless I could see it while making mulligan decisions. If we have 2 counterspells that should likely push through what they have as a general rule. Sometimes 1 is enough too. This deck has a lot of redundancy though/even if your opponent plays their countermagic for full effect/counters, say, meditate we can still easily win that turn depending on the strength of our hand. There are much better cards we can run than peek. I run 18 land alongside 4 opt, 4 brainstorm, and 4 impulse to find lands/spells if I have enough lands. I absolutely adore gitaxian probe in ANT and such but those decks play quite different from solidarity in my experience because they are fundamentally faster and far more all in than solidarity is unless you're running pact of negation/I have no clue how you can cut down below 4 forces when your opponent can just play something you want to force quite badly but instead you're holding unplayable pact that is purely a combo card and not the greatest at that. There are things you want to force before the combo turn ranging from skillforge mystic to hymn to treasure cruise. Pact any of those and you die. Force them and you get more time to play with. This deck wants more time usually strange I know but you also want to be able to goldfish a turn 4 win with protection. Force fulfills that role admirably. You can't say it's bad in multiples as force pitching force is a line. Force fuels dig through time. Force counters everything except storm spells and uncounterable spells but I'm not sure what uncounterable spells pertain to this deck and its plan short of abrupt decay on a snapcaster mage that is targeted by snap/repeal if you want to run that nonsense.
Lastly, cunning wish is uncuttable. I have grown to love the card more and more in playing this deck. Anything less than 3 is very, very wrong as it grants you insane flexibility. 3 mana split card that is either card draw, countermagic, or mana/everything the deck wants in one 3 mana card. It's batshit crazy not to run it. If you run anything else over it you'll draw the card you replaced it with and think "man I wish this wasn't a flusterstorm I really wanted a meditate there." It is the closest we're getting to demonic tutor in this deck or merchant scroll for that matter and merchant scroll is one of the sickest cards in spiral tide that enables the deck to even exist as without it I'd like spiral tide infinitely less.
Impulse is one of the best cards in this deck. It pains me whenever someone runs less than 4 since it is the ideal setup card and combo card at the 2cc slot. Find land, check. Great to get out of brainstorm lock during combo, check. Digs more than every card in the deck except dig through time, check. Every time I resolve impulse I like it a lot. It's like a 2 mana preordain that bottoms 3 and puts 1 in your hand. At 1 mana it would be broken beyond belief. At 2 mana it's still quite a deal in terms of card selection at that cost. Our cantrip quality is low at the 1 drop slot outside brainstorm.
Have to go but I'll post later on.
@Kanti:
Well, I agree that Opt digs deeper than Peek and Mental Note. (In the D.G Era I played 4 Opt instead of shitty Peek)
However M.N has advantages over Opt and Peek and the one I love most is the ability to cast a 3rd turn DTT, there is no other way you can do this in Solidarity.
Also M.N has other advantages over these 2 cards as explained before:
- IF you have SnapCaster in hand you can dig virtually deeper than Peek Or Opt, the reason is that you can next play one of the cards in G.Y. with Snapcaster
- With B.S. in hand you can also dig deeper as you put the top 2 cards in G.Y. drawing the unknown 3rd card
@Feline:
I'll play a local tomorrow with your build but:
-4 Opt -1 Meditate -1Land = +4 M.Note, +4th DTT, +4th FoW, leaving the 4th Meditate in Side
I'm so happy to play again Solidarity!!!
as mentioned in the Side there will be more PoN and Swang Song and Looking for options vs HateBears I saw the following card: Polymorphist's Jest, I'll see how this work but not conviced... anyone tested this?
I'll expose later how the tournament went!
@Seraphus:
Calm down please it's chrismast and we are all in the same Storm board!
@Dark Ritual
I will ask you again:
You throw around your list like it's the freaking Ten Commandments and yet I cannot see how it's any better against the URx meta than any other list in here. Or even as good.Quote:
Originally Posted by JDK
Opt & Peek
Opt is obviously the better choice in terms of "digging". It gives you selection, even though just a little bit. Peek just replaces itself. The value of peek is not that you see the opponent's counters and counter accordingly, because it is almost always clear how to stack your counters. Peek allows you to see how much time you have to build your resources. It allows you to see if SCM+Snap is save. It allows you to see what to discard after e.g. a Meditate. It allows you to see if you have to go for it or if you can still search for lands or spells. Sure you can always play as if you would face the worst or just go for it, but you increase your percentages if you actually know.
With Dig Through Time the selection during combo and the midgame has become much better, but it still needs setup and doesn't work as setup very well itself - at least not early or against GY-hate. Solidarity was always in need of CMC1 spells to efficiently use resources like mana and time. With DTT and the rise of URx even more so. That's why I think (based on experience and theory) 3+ Opt are the way to go, with 4 CMC1 draw-spells being the absolute minimum I'd consider with 2+ DTT.
Cunning Wish
I rarely...ummm...wish I had a Wish instead of any other card and especially against fast decks you don't want a card that works turn 3+ only. Another disadvantage of Wish is that it doesn't directly fuel your DTT and SCM. Even against Emrakul.dec I was always fine playing 1 BF & 1 CW in my maindeck. It's versatile, yes. It is also clumsy and slow.
DTT
4? In such a slow build? Even a DRS would significantly slow you down or throw you off. Not to mention the fast clocks like Delver.
countering SFM
I feel like countering SFM is something you should rarely do (given you are playing bounce-spells - which you don't MD, for whatever reason). Why? Because SFM is not that fast. Pre-board most people just have access to BSkull and Jitte. Most likely your opponent will fetch BSkull and you have enough time to set up and combo off. If you want or need to, you can just bounce the token or equipped creature and get at least another turn. This is also true for postboard Sword of Feast and Famine.
That's not true. 3 fetchlands + 2 spells cast by turn three lets you cast a dig through time by paying 3 and delving 5. This is, in my opinion, one of the reasons one should run a large number of fetchlands. Turn 3 dig is the best way to set up a turn 4 combo if you can manage it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pelikanudo
There is at least one reasonable argument for not running 4 force of will. Namely that if you rely primarily for force as your protection, it becomes harder to combo through multiple counterspells your opponent has. Losing 4 cards for 2 counterspells is sometimes a rough proposition, which is why I like to diversify my counters just a little bit. (Yes, of course you do pitch one force to the other when you can't afford to use both. However, if you drew force + pact or force + swan song for example you could pitch some other card instead and then cast the song/pact for a second counterspell.) I do run 4 force in my 75 though, because there are plenty of times when you really do need it, but currently I run 3 main/1 SB to help make it less pressure on my hand to combo off with multiple protection. I do not believe that it's a clear choice at the moment to run all 4 forces in the main. I wouldn't fault anybody for running all 4 main. As you say though, I think 2 is too low however.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Ritual
I always thought that Peek was "training wheels". This was back when I was young and arrogant. Then I saw Finkel running Peek in a Standard deck the last time it was Standard legal. The full four, just because it was in the format. He was the only one doing it. He was winning.
Was he winning because of Peek, or was he winning because he is Jon Finkel? Tough to say. He's still in the conversation for the best player of all time, and he was at his peak back when Urza's Saga was in Standard. But then I always ask the question: if the best player in the world is doing something that no one else is doing, is it more likely that he's wrong or that we are wrong? I don't know that I know the answer to that, or that anyone can know. I do know that it made me a lot less arrogant about Peek. If the best player in the world doesn't think it's "training wheels" (or doesn't care), then why should I?
Gitaxian Probe isn't powerful because it's free. It's powerful because it replaces itself and it breaks one of the fundamental rules of the game: you get to know what is in your opponent's hand, and more importantly, they do not get to know what is in yours. It makes outplaying your opponent much, much easier. It being free is a bonus (and a large one), but also in a deck that is naturally slower I'd rather pay the mana and not the life (since the mana is going to be a less scarce resource throughout the game) and have the flexibility that being an instant affords it. I'd go so far as to say that Peek costing mana all the time (rather than just some of the time with Gitaxian Probe) does not make it significantly worse to the point that it's probably wrong that some decks aren't playing Peek right now, or that the optimal number of "Gitaxian Probe" effects might make it so that a 4 Gitaxian Probe, 1-2 Peek deck could be correct. The fact that not everyone is doing it increases the information-disparity bonus gained from Peek.
I've always felt that the one-mana non-Brainstorm cantrip slot was a compromise. When the deck was (relatively) inconsistent, before Snapcaster Mage and Dig Through Time were printed, Opt was much more of a necessity because it was the card that best added stability to the deck, though even in those days it wasn't uncommon to see a 2/2 split between Peek and Opt. With the printing of those two cards, that slot needs to cheat towards consistency much, much less, which affords the opportunity to run Peek without losing overall consistency in the deck. With Dig Through Time in the deck, I'm also not convinced it's incorrect to simply run a full set of both (and maybe more one-mana cantrips) to ensure you're always casting DTT early and often, and allowing the power of DTT to make up for the lack of consistency you get from not running Impulse or whatever it is that you're cutting from those slots. Which is crazy.
I do believe that we are still far from the optimal build, as most of what I'm seeing is people just jamming Dig Through Time into old shells and I believe that Dig Through Time fundamentally alters how the deck functions. I think it will look like a slow deck (because there are no good ways to break the fundamental one land a turn rule), and I think it will have a maximum number of Dig Through Time with as many Snapcaster Mages as usable because they are the best cards we have been given for the deck since Reset and High Tide and Brainstorm. It will likely cut down on many of the other options we've had in the past to increase consistency (Impulse, Cunning Wish, Opt) because it's just not as necessary, but I think it would be a mistake to cut all of them because they are still strong cards. I also feel that it will include Brain Freeze in the main deck because doing so only makes the deck better. I also feel that having more than five counterspells is probably unnecessary, and I personally am hesitant to play more than four. These are all my opinions. I have no hard evidence to back any of them up and I could be wrong. But they are based on what I know about the deck after years of playing with it and years of trying out every blue instant ever printed in this deck specifically.
I hope I can soon begin to contribute more than just theory to this thread. I received the final two Force of Wills I needed to complete the deck, and my first event will be a Legacy FNM on 1/2 (and hopefully again on 1/9). There is a SCG event nearby at the end of January, and I will be playing in the Premiere IQ there. After events, I will report back with my notes and observations with the deck.
For reference, here is the list I am working with currently (will tweak with hands-on experience):
1 Brain Freeze
4 Brainstorm
2 Cunning Wish
3 Dig Through Time
2 Flusterstorm
3 Force of Will
4 High Tide
4 Impulse
3 Meditate
4 Opt
1 Pact of Negation
1 Repeal
4 Reset
2 Snap
3 Snapcaster Mage
1 Turnabout
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
10 Island
1 Blue Sun's Zenith
1 Brain Freeze
1 Dig Through Time
1 Echoing Truth
1 Flusterstorm
1 Hurkyl's Recall
2 Pact of Negation
1 Polymorphist's Jest
1 Ravenous Trap
1 Snap
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Turnabout
2 Wipe Away
I am happy to hear any feedback, any questions about my list, and anything anyone thinks I should look for with regards to how my list plays.
List seems good. I would seriously consider changing the SB Dig to the 4th Meditate for two reasons. You don't want your primary Wish-able draw spell to be affected by GY hate. It's just too easily visible a choke point if you Wish for Dig, and they have a way to affect your GY. Also, with the amount of Pacts you run, resolving a Meditate means that against any non-Emrakul deck, Freeze is lethal, and you don't have to worry about paying, or Zenithing them out. So you always want to be sure you have access to one.Quote:
Originally Posted by astormbrewing
I've been back and forth of this, and it is something I will seriously consider before the 2nd.Quote:
Originally Posted by Parcher
Also, I would want BEBs. Not for REBs, I think your Pacts are better for that. But for Red speed creatures, and Burn. You can't effectively Pact a Swiftspear, or Eidolon. And saving any damage against Burn The Deck is relevant.
Increase your odds if you know your opponent has more countermagic than you can beat? Peek does a lot of things but that isn't one of them. Let's say they have triple force of will and triple blue card. Knowing they have that means jack shit. Knowing if you can go for it? You're playing the deck wrong on a fundamental level if you're trying to kill your opponent before they can kill you short of them having little to no cards in hand/giving them more time to draw into countermagic/hatebears/relevant stuff. Peek helps none of that. Peek is pure training wheels. Finkel played it in standard wow so revolutionary. It *really* doesn't matter what Finkel plays or doesn't play because he has more talent than everyone in this thread combined. I'd heavily suggest that people learn to read their opponents if they think peek is the greatest thing since sliced bread.Quote:
Originally Posted by JDK
Cunning wish doesn't exile for DTT unless they counter it and they virtually always do if they can. Bad with snapcaster? Last I looked you grab an instant that you can snapcaster back unless it's ravenous trap/I haven't the faintest idea as to why you'd want to snapcaster that anyways. Slow? Maybe a little bit but 3 mana really isn't much when you're getting a tutor for anything out of the deal. The card is the greatest tool we have to fight surgical extraction as well since extracting high tide before we've resolved one is a very real way to lose the game if we have all 4 in the exile zone. The flexibility it offers is unparalleled in this combo control deck and is completely necessary short of some revolutionary list coming about that doesn't utilize it as a 3 of or more let me know when that happens because the lists that are putting up any results run 3 cunning wish and not this 0, 1, or 2 bullshit that people seem to think is a good move deckbuilding wise.
Great DRS slows me down yet DRS is already virtually nonexistant in legacy right now. I'm not about to start jamming mental note(s) or something like that to try to combat DRS when DRS already hates on snapcaster too/if it isn't affecting dig it's countering a snapcaster trigger that we could very well need to win. DTT is the best thing to happen to this deck in forever and people still haven't figured out that delve is a busted mechanic in this thread apparently because everywhere else treasure cruise is wrecking the format with its power yet people in the mono blue combo deck thread seem to think we don't want 4 in the 75 when everything else in the deck pales in comparison powerlevel wise to DTT. Resolving a DTT is the main gameplan of this deck as once you do you're heavily favored to win even if the opponent has resolved a treasure cruise their 3 blind cards they get off cruise are heavily likely to be worse than the best 2 cards in our top 7 since we're a combo deck/the power level of our deck as a whole is significantly higher. If it wasn't why would we play this deck?
SFM was an example. You can replace SFM with delver, young pyro, or any significant clock. Sure you don't always want to counter SFM/significant clock and I wouldn't fault you if you didn't but the more time we have the stronger our chances of winning the game are just like a control deck. Giving up some cards for that is worth it if it ultimately wins us the game. Aggressively FoWing can be the correct line regardless of what you think FoW is not some last resort type of card that is cast only in dire need especially with dig in the picture to recoup the card disadvantage associated with forces pitch cost.
Yes, I have jammed my list against the URx meta. I have had success with it. Snap maindeck may be correct or it might not be hard to know. The worst part about the card is that it can turn the opponents removal on when normally swords to plowshares does nothing against us. Turnabout is guaranteed mana upon resolution whether the opponent has plow or not. For snap to be a more efficient card in mana production with tide than turnabout means that we have 3 or less lands in play/why are we trying to combo. Bouncing a dude to buy time can be great no doubt but turnabout does that exact same thing in terms of fogging an incoming army of pyromancer tokens, TNN, or multiple large threats to buy time as snapping something to buy a turn is virtually the same short of it being a batterskull germ token that snap is targeting/yay that one case. We're far more likely to care about stopping an army of elemental tokens as people play a lot of instants/sorceries against the combo deck who knew.
The same ignorance has been shown when people started playing Probe (not that Peek in Solidarity is new ^^). You can only cover a limited amount of possibilities and at the end of the day, knowledge weighs more than "I think" or "let's try". I don't think Peek is a crucial piece in Solidarity, but it certainly helps making the correct choices - regardless of which level you play at. If you want to tell me you always make the correct decision based on your "reading of opponents", then go ahead. I call bullshit and will fail to find the results of your superiority.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Ritual
Results? Go check tcdecks.net or mtgtop8.com.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Ritual
DRS is "virtually nonexistant" but you argue with Discard+Extraction? If you check the lists you will see a ton more DRS than Extractions. If you feel confident improving your opponent's cards, go ahead.
I am not sure you have actually played (= tournament) in the abomination of what the URx meta has made out of Legacy. Let alone having success. If you wait too long you will play against a hand full of FoWs, Flusterstorms, Pierces, REB/Pyroblast, etc. Yes, even maindeck nowadays. Often you cannot wait anyway. You regularly face lethal before you actually want to go off or even made your 4th/5th landdrop and Repeal/Snap is better to buy you time than using FoW (early on).Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Ritual
Look, we all know DTT is good. Hell, I would want to play 4 DTT in my maindeck too - but I don't, for good reasons. DTT needs fuel and comparing it to Treasure Cruise is pretty shortsighted. Why? Decks with Cruise have a lower curve and play Gitaxian Probe and Daze. Resources matter and free spells do too, when it comes to DTT. Another point is that they can play more fetchlands. We want landdrops, they just want 2-3. With that in mind DTT sucks as setup early on, so it produces awkward hands and isn't that good against fast MUs (unless it's during the combo). Your list doesn't cope with these issues, does it?
This is exactly what I was talking about. If a player who has more talent than everyone here combined did something that you consider "pure training wheels", that doesn't give you at least a little pause to think that maybe you're misevaluating the situation? Also, if you think that this deck is solely about waiting to go off until you have to, then you are playing the deck wrong on a fundamental level. The best time to go off is the best time to go off. Waiting until you're forced to go off is a great way to lose to an opponent who has been sculpting their hand throughout the game. It's much easier to, for instance, go off against two counterspells with four lands than four counterspells with six lands. Or to try to go off on four lands when they have only two lands untapped vs waiting until they have all of their lands untapped and you're in a position where it's win or die. In those situations, waiting until the last minute just lost you the game.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Ritual
This is to say nothing of the times when it's correct to "go off" before you can actually kill them to drain their hands of counterspells, untap, make a land drop, and go off again the next turn. That's a play that's impossible if you're always waiting until the last minute.
If you have trouble understanding that, I think perhaps you need more games.
Don't see where that says you don't know anything about the deck, or that you've never made a contribution. What it does say though is that your grammar is terrible, and that you post a list every. single. post. You somehow misinterpreted that to mean something else, but hey, that's on you.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kanti
I'm also not seeing where JDK or Benthetenor made any points regarding that topic. JDK spoke about Dark Rit's list not being meta'd for the UR Delver metagame- which I agree with as with 0 Snaps, and 0 Repeals main you are going to get wrecked by UR Delver. Benthetenor spoke about Peek, and how due to the recent additions to the deck in the vein of Snapcaster Mage and Dig through Time, Solidarity has reached a level of consistency where it's better for your cantrips to have an effect, rather than add stability by filtering draws. Once again, neither of those have anything to do with my quote above, with just mentions your terrible grammar (I know you are foreign but there is a thing called spell check) and the fact that you post a list every other post, almost literally. I'm sure you're going to infer this all to be an insult again, but I'm not sure why.
On Peek, I think you gotta change your assesment Dark Ritual. Calling anything "training wheels" is dangerous from the get go. I want to know what's in my opponents hand, not deduce it. Throwing your deck against the wall is cool, but if I have the option of knowing exactly what I'm throwing my hand into, without costing me stability, well then I'll take it.
Yes this is Solidarity, yes we can go off at instant speed to everything. Yes, it's fun to go off in the pre-combat phase when our opponent is about to attack us for letahl. That's the flavor of our deck. With that said if I can kill you now, I'm going to kill you now. I'm not going to wait until the last second because "Hey, I'm Solidarity damnit. I don't function like other combo decks, I don't calculate if I have to go off now, I can just go off in response to what they do!". No thank you. If I see an opening, I will take it, like any other combo deck in the format. It's easy to get in the habit of waiting and waiting with this deck, until you are forced to go off, but I've learned that as in life, you have to be pragmatic in Magic, to take your opening when they come, and not let them pass you by. So I will continue to cast a seemingly harmless Peek against opponents holding 5 cards in hand that I think read Fluster, Fluster, Force, Pierce, Daze, only to find out they are holding onto Bolt, Scalding Tarn, Daze, Treasure Cruise, Forked Bolt. And then I'll kill my opponents, while you wait until they draw into a counter they didn't have in the first place.
as to not clog the board, I'm basically on Felines list with -3 Fluster, -1 Meditate, -1 Impulse +1 Force, +2 Repeal, +2 Brain Freeze. Really just a normal list list with 3 DTT in the main, and 2 Repeals to help deal with the two most popular decks in the format, UR Delver and UW Miracles. My idea being that I have 4 md bounce vs Delver (2 Snaps, 2 Repeals), and 5 bounce spells vs Miracles (2 Repeals main, 3 Wishes to fetch for bounce). Can't really wish for bounce vs Delver since their cards will have done their damage, but Wishing for bounce/KGrip vs Miracles is obviously legit as their clock sucks.
Is cutting Flusterstorms right? Is cutting Brain Freeze right? Iunno, that's why Im testing. I can say that this deck needs some Repeals or Flusters in the main though, as we just need some way to interact with our opponent so they don't just goldfish us. That's our job.
Another tournament report.
Here is the list I played:
1 [ZEN] Scalding Tarn
2 [KTK] Flooded Strand
2 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
2 [KTK] Polluted Delta
11 [UNH] Island
2 [ISD] Snapcaster Mage
1 [C13] Blue Sun's Zenith
1 [SC] Brain Freeze
2 [KTK] Dig Through Time
2 [CMD] Flusterstorm
2 [AL] Force of Will
2 [FUT] Pact of Negation
2 [UL] Snap
3 [IN] Opt
3 [10E] Peek
3 [RAV] Remand
3 [GP] Repeal
4 [CNS] Brainstorm
4 [FE] High Tide
4 [TE] Meditate
4 [LG] Reset
SB: 1 [10E] Hurkyl's Recall
SB: 1 [NPH] Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 [DS] Echoing Truth
SB: 2 [ZEN] Ravenous Trap
SB: 2 [ZEN] Mindbreak Trap
SB: 2 [TSP] Wipe Away
SB: 2 [THS] Annul
SB: 1 [SC] Brain Freeze
SB: 1 [AL] Force of Will
SB: 1 [UL] Rebuild
4 rounds. I ended 2nd and lost in the final.
1) Reanimator 2/0 (without Iona). Lost the dice roll
I got lucky both games as I managed to prevent him from reanimating anything I could not deal with.
Peek was MVP as I could see my opponent coming.
Flusterstorm & bouncing effects (snap, echoing truth, wipe away) were very helpful.
2) Affinity 2/0. Lost the dice roll
G1 -> I stabilized at 1 and I'm forced to combo with a fling on the stack and 3 lands. I failed but I have drawn enough gas to counter the fling and I'm able to bounce anything relevant until I could try to combo again.
G2-> Uneventful as I drew into Hurkyl's recall and Rebuild...
3) U/R Delver 2/1. Won the dice roll
G1 -> A T1 Delver blind flip got repealed and I'm able to dig my way to victory with lethal on board and 6 lands in play a few turns later.
G2 -> I kept a one land opening hand with 2 cantrips (opt/BS). Both were pyroblasted... I got crushed by YP and his fellow elementals.
G3 -> Delver got repealed and I'm able to MB all his counters on the Big turn.
4) Maverick 1/2. Lost the dice roll
G1 -> I fluster a GSZ @2 suspecting a Gaddock MD. Few turns later, I dig my way to victory in response to another GSZ@2
G2 -> Mulligan to 5. T1 MoM followed by T2 Gaddock was backbreaking as I had 1 DTT and 1 Repeal in hand. I got crush by a 7/7 KOTR.
G3 -> Same story. T1 Mom T2 Gaddock...Soon followed by an Ooze eating my yard...
My wipe away were nowhere to be seen :-(
@Seraphus: I tried some of your choices.
1) Annul was bad against Maverick (no target, the Maverick player was not playing Cannonist)
2) I might go for +1 wipe away -1 Echoing truth to better deal with MoM + hatebear. BUT, I'm a bit reluctant because of the strain it puts on your mana.
3) Having no wish MB was weird but in those games I didn't feel once I need one. So I guess we could stick with a "no wish" version.
4) PoN is all or nothing. This makes me feel sick about this card... I dunno what to think about it. I'll lose games because PoN is not a FOW and I'll win games because PoN is PoN.
5) However I'm pretty sure we do not need DTT n°3. The card is great if you can cast it, which is not always the case...
You're ritght I noticed this when goldfishing...Quote:
Originally Posted by Valtrix
That's why I finally put up the number of Fetches to 10 playing total 19 Lands.
Well finally played the tournament:
1st game was vs TES... 0-2 I couldn't do anything in here vs a 1st turn 12 Gobs and in second game the 2nd Xantid landed...
The second game was ANT... I was able to win the 1st game because I handle a heavy Counterspell hand, but again the second and 3rd games were dictated by Xantids and no Land drops...
The 3rd match up was a bye so I finally dropped...
Well I coudn't reach many conclusions but I have some ideas that want to test, I think we are in a development era of this deck
This is the List I finally played:
3 Snapcaster Mage
9 Island
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
2 Scalding Tarn
4 Brainstorm
3 Cunning Wish
4 Dig Through Time
3 Flusterstorm
3 Force of Will
4 High Tide
4 Impulse
3 Meditate
4 Mental Note
4 Reset
1 Snap
1 Turnabout (The guy from the shop didn't have Snap so I needed to move the Turnabout from side to the Base....)
Sideboard
1 Blue Sun's Zenith
1 Brain Freeze
1 Meditate
1 Flusterstorm
1 Force of Will
2 Pact of Negation
1 Rebuild
1 Surgical Extraction
2 Swang Song
2 Wipe Away
1 Chain Of Vapor
Well my conclusions after the brief torunament and goldfishing:
a) Decks like ANT and TES which are inherently faster seem a nightmare for this deck, sure I finally moved the 4th FoW to the side because I felt I needed 19 lands playing 10 fetches, but this is something in my opinion wrong, in my meta there are tons of different flavours of combo which are faster than us so playing less than 4 FoWs seem nonsense for me.
b) when goldfishing digging +1 card from Opt vs ability to put +2 cards in G.Y. from M.Note really affected very litle, I didn't face any mana issues - only the game I played vs ANT - but this was my fault for not doing mull. I also felt that Impulse is less relevant if you play DTT with the idea of using it on 2nd or 3rd turn - I'm not saying I will cut it, but maybe I would prefer Opt plus M.Note over this.
c) Cunning Wish is a need in this deck, but I'm starting to question if I can play 2 instead of 3 as it is a card that rarely I use unless I need to combo or put up some permanent hate - notice that for a landed thalia you just need another tide.
Also when talking with other friends which also want to try the DTT in Solidarity they also thought on Thotghscour so we are trying list by there...
This is my new testing list:
8 Island
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Brainstorm
4 Dig Through Time
4 Force of Will
4 High Tide
4 Meditate
4 Mental Note
4 Reset
2 Snap
2 Cunning Wish
2 Impulse
3 Flusterstorm
3 Snapcaster Mage
Sideboard
1 Blue Sun's Zenith
1 Brain Freeze
1 Flusterstorm
2 Pact of Negation
1 Rebuild
1 Surgical Extraction
2 Swang Song
2 Wipe Away
1 Chain Of Vapor
1 Turnabout
X cards
Well I'll finally try 20 lands 12 of them fetches. maybe I test next 18 lands 10 fetches and 0 impulse and 4 opt, what do you think about this?
I reduced drastically the number of impulse, sure I'd like to play 4 but prefer other cards.
For me snap is ok, a difference from Turnabout which I like is its ability to untap 2 lands for only 2 mana, I found scenarios in which I needed to Tide > Meditate and find reset OR snap NOT Turnabout to next just simply DTT into reset!
I don't think B.F. is needed in the main as there are tons of Emrakul decks by there which frustates our WinCon, for me is in deed a dead card, I also reduced its number in side to just 1.
About Peek vs Opt:
For me it is 100 % clear: Opt is far superior than Peek, Peek doesn't dig, Opt does dig and looking at Opp. Hand is not relevant, if you look at David Gearherat list evlution you'll notice that thecreator started tro play 2 next 1 and next 0 Peek, they're just training wheels, and also please do not compare Peek and G.P. it is an offense.
Especially someone who plays Mental Note over Thought Scour should think about "training wheels". ;)
Also, how does your list do against UR Delver? The additional lifeloss from the fetchlands is relevant and you lack bounce.
Plus Opt & Impulse are necessary to get some kind of early selection other than Brainstorm.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JDK
Of course Snap is also there to bounce opposing creatures. Not only hatebears, but also to buy you turns. As you experienced, bounce versus a Xantid Swarm is still valid. ;)
Oh, and DTT is not "early selection".
How do you determine if a deck is Tier X, when you don't test against the DTBs?
Quote:
Originally Posted by JDK
You being the "best" storm player and "tuning" your list in your local group doesn't mean anything at all in terms of viability. Plus you cannot make DTT work on Turn 1 or 2.
You bounce Swarm to make your counters active, which buy you more time. If you have any, that is. I don't know why you want to argue about this. What other options do you have to not die?
Besides, Solidarity can go off on turn 3, especially when hijacking opposing Storm counts.
Turn 1 fetch, mental note. Turn 2 fetch, snap, DTT.Quote:
Originally Posted by JDK
metal note into HT+Brain freeze plus daze on the other side hum... Wait I love these random assigned dudes coming here and say shit that everyone knows... Man he is referring himself to the viability of the play...Quote:
Originally Posted by PetesMcskeets
In case your that reply was going to be "not all decks play Daze": only DnT/Maverick doesn't play daze (in the lot of decks to be concern with) but they play mother, so invalid point again...
Cool, you play DTT for zero card advantage and only if a creature is on the battlefield. Instead you could just go land, Brainstorm, fetch, Impulse. This play also doesn't make you cry if one of them gets countered.Quote:
Originally Posted by PetesMcskeets
Went 2-1 at Legacy FNM tonight. List is as follows:
1 Brain Freeze
4 Brainstorm
2 Cunning Wish
3 Dig Through Time
2 Flusterstorm
3 Force of Will
4 High Tide
4 Impulse
4 Meditate
4 Opt
1 Pact of Negation
4 Reset
2 Snap
3 Snapcaster Mage
1 Turnabout
10 Island
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
1 Blue Sun's Zenith
1 Brain Freeze
1 Dig Through Time
1 Echoing Truth
1 Flusterstorm
1 Hurkyl's Recall
2 Pact of Negation
1 Polymorphist's Jest
1 Ravenous Trap
1 Snap
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Turnabout
2 Wipe Away
Round 1 vs Pox (2-1)
Game 1: He made me discard via 2 Inquisition of Kozileks, and I FoW'd a Hymn and Liliana. He puts on the beats with Nether Spirit. During his draw step, I have 5 lands and Strand in play, attempt to crack it, and he tries to Cursed Scroll in response to kill me. I proceed to combo with 5 lands in play.
High Tide - Opt - Meditate - Brainstorm - Reset - Meditate - High Tide - Dig Through Time - Meditate - High Tide - Reset - Impulse - Cunning Wish (USZ) - Reset - Brain Freeze - USZ
Game 2: He puts on the early beats with Nether Spirit and Mishra's Factory, and I draw very poorly.
Game 3: He stalls on 2 lands for a while, and I sculpt a great hand. He eventually tries to cast Hymn to Tourach, and I combo in response.
(o)Hymn to Tourach - High Tide - Meditate - High Tide - Dig Through Time - Reset - Snapcaster Mage - Meditate - Snap - Snapcaster Mage - Impulse - Meditate - Impulse - Reset - Snapcaster Mage - Impulse - Cunning Wish (USZ) - Brain Freeze - USZ
Round 2 vs 4-color Delver (1-2)
Game 1: He puts me on a fast clock and miss a land drop or two. I attempt to combo on 3 lands and fail.
High Tide - (o)Lightning Bolt - (o)Lightning Bolt - High Tide - Reset - Meditate - Opt
Game 2: I have a pretty solid hand with 3 lands in play, and he taps out with 1 card in hand to cast Treasure Cruise. Seems like a good time.
(o)Treasure Cruise - High Tide - Reset - Meditate - High Tide - Snap - Opt - Dig Through Time - Reset - Snapcaster Mage - Meditate - Impulse - Impulse - High Tide - Reset - Brain Freeze
Game 3: Again, miss a couple land drops against a fast clock (also 2 Deathrite Shaman). My attempt to go off is cut very short.
High Tide - (o) Daze (pay 1) - (o) Daze - High Tide - Pyroblast
Round 3 vs Burn (2-1)
Game 1: I have a Force of Will for the first Eidolon, but not for the second.
Game 2: They have a Grim Lavamancer in play, and I'm on 3 lands. I end up casting way too many spells to the find the 2nd Cunning Wish I need for USZ to avoid death.
(o)Rift Bolt - High Tide - High Tide - Brainstorm - Reset - Opt - Meditate - Snapcaster Mage - High Tide - Turnabout - Meditate - High Tide - Impulse - Meditate - Cunning Wish (Snap) - Snap* - Meditate - Impulse - Snapcaster Mage - Reset - Brainstorm - Snap* - Snapcaster Mage - Meditate - Dig Through Time - Dig Through Time - Impulse - Brain Freeze - Cunning Wish (USZ) - USZ
*I relied on both of these Snaps targeting Snapcaster Mage to resolve or else I fizzle. Despite them having an active Grim Lavamancer, they choose not to use it. I should have lost this game.
Game 3: Yet again I go off on 3 lands to avoid death on the next turn.
(o)Rift Bolt - High Tide - Snap (target Grim, they activate in response) - Reset - (o)Fireblast - Dig Through Time - Flusterstorm (on Fireblast) - Impulse - High Tide - Reset - Cunning Wish (Dig Through Time) - Dig Through Time* - Opt - Turnabout - Snapcaster Mage - Dig Through Time* - Brain Freeze**
*Both of these Dig Through Times were cast with no cards in hand and no cards in the graveyard post-Delve.
**I was at 4 life, and Vortex was in play. They had two cards in hand (Grim and land). They could have played Grim, passed, Vortex puts me to 2, and then they activate Grim on upkeep to kill me, but they didn't see it. Again, this match was given to me by my opponent.
Went 8-5 for the weekend at Philly. Not thrilled, but it was the second time I'd played the deck in the past 5 years. Beat Miracles twice, Patriot Delver, Patriot w/TNN and Pyromacer, U/W Blade w/CTop, Deadguy, Ascendancy, and TES. Lost to no-creature Miracles, Sneak, Infect, Grixis Delver, and that deck Rudy won with running 4 Counterspell, 4 Dig, etc.
Sneak won turn one on the play, and turn two on the draw. Can't afford to mull to Force against them. Grixis Delver with MD Therapies would have been winnable still if I had found any draw spells in both games I lost. The 4 Ponder, 4 Pyro version of Miracles is very tough. He won 1-0, but had a god-hand game two to stop me. I believe I can still win post-board. Infect you just have to be lucky to beat. The deck with 4 hard Counterspells+ was my fault. I didn't understand what he was playing for too long, and just played the land drop game. He allowed both Tides to resolve, which let him get under my Fstorms with hardcasting Force, Counterspell and REBs.
4 Opt
4 Brainstorm
4 Impulse
3 Dig through Time
2 Cunning Wish
3 Meditate
3 Snapcaster Mage
4 Force of Will
2 Flusterstorm
4 High Tide
4 Reset
2 Turnabout
1 Brain Freeze
2 Repeal
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Misty Rainforest
8 Island
2 Volcanic Island
1 Brain Freeze
1 Turnabout
1 Blue Sun's Zenith
1 Meditate
1 Flusterstorm
2 Sudden Shock
2 Hydroblast
1 Wipe Away
2 Pyroblast
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Rebuild
Prolly going to cut the Meditate in the board for the 3rd Pyro. I never Wished for it once, and only boarded it in against Deadguy. Might feel different if there was more discard in the format. And there were multiple times that I boarded in both Pyros, and had moments where Wishing for the 3rd would have changed the game, if not won it.
Beat both Patriot decks with combat damage, though needed the Red spells to do it. One was Snap attacks+Shock and flashback, the other was Snap attacks, plus killing two of his Mages with Pyros. Only got Wasted once the entire time. No one is playing it, and it's easy to see coming. The one game it happened, he went turn one Delver, and I Forced. He went turn two Delver, and on turn three I Repealed it. He replayed it post-combat, and I Pyro'ed it turn four after his third straight blind filp. He then Wasted my Volc, but had no more threats to play that turn. So I was still at like 16 on turn five when he dropped a Stoneforge. Basically lost a land and a card for a double timewalk, and won easily. Only really used Shock against MMage, and Infect, but I just never saw any other Hatebears.
Lost the last round in my first v4 DE due to MODO not recognizing my Ctrl-Key. Played SCM (pressing Ctrl) for a double Brain Freeze (lethal), but oh well. At least I got a 2-land kill against UWR.
The current meta is fucked up anyway...played UWR Blade, UWR Miracles, UWR Blade and Storm.
Parcher, you list made me laugh out loud. Everyone is going to run Pyroblasts? Fine, I'll run some Hydroblasts to deal with those Pyros, and I'll run some damn Pyroblasts myself while I'm at it. Eat that. Think Electrolyze deserves a shout out for that list. Looks amazing if it can get past Daze and Pierce.
Somehow the meta is just as bad as the Team America Delver meta for us, if not worse. Counters+discard rotates out, main-deck REBs and Wasteland.dec rotates in (I think a meta with Wasteland is good for us). I mean really, md Pyro's? Damn you format.
edit: er meant to say Wasteland.dec rotated out. Meaning almost every deck has an easy access to their splash. I won't ever face a mana-screwed opponent again it seems. No more akward basic+basic draws.
Treasure Cruise is banned!!
How much will be that it improves our deck?
Best case scenario: Pyroblasts and REBs see a sharp decline in play, and for whatever reason, discard decks don't make a substantial comeback. Solidarity becomes a very, very good choice.Quote:
Originally Posted by lexluthor
Worst case scenario: People continue to maindeck Pyroblast and occasionally REB, and discard decks become a reasonable metagame choice again. Solidarity stays about where it is, or becomes slightly worse.
The likely answer is somewhere in between, but my (slightly optimistic) guess is that we maybe get back a few percentage points against some decks, and stay about where we were against most of the rest of the field, ie still a decent T2 choice.
Leaning towards Solidarity this weekend for DC, but sshh, it's a secret. 8-)