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That makes little or no sense. RUG Delver has enough stifle and wasteland to attack your Mana base. Even if you did get to 4 lands, you still have to fight over cheap counter to resolve a Jace.Quote:
Originally Posted by klaus
Againt DnT, same issue, it attacks your Mana base via wasteland, port, and aven mindcensor.
By the time you did get your 4 Mana brainstorm to resolve, your life total is probably at Bolt range. It has nothing to do w/ nay sayer, it's being realistic.
I've been playing with 4, but only because running 6 would be illegal. I think Entreat #3 is an easy cut for the 4th Jace.Quote:
Originally Posted by zerzab11
Hmm..Is the same as how Moat is so terrible and people shouldn't play it?Quote:
Originally Posted by twndomn
That's your logic, not mine. By your logic, you should not play Miracle at all, you should be playing Delver decks, since most of Delver cards have CMC 1 or 2, excluding FoW.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cipher
why don't you explain to me that argument: "people should be running 4 Jaces..., kills any nay sayer's argument blah blah blah"
I actually kept my 3 in since they did so well in game 1 with a Terminus. He had a lot of six drops (Steel Hellkite, Wurmcoil, Staff on Nin) and if he did get some creatures out I could always cast Terminus. I boarded in Verdict, Helm, Humility, Aura of silence and the extra Terminus for 2 Cliques, 1 Jace, 1 D-sphere.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dzra
I was being sarcastic. Somebody was saying Moat is to expensive to be good against delver, which is funny because because 4 mana is never too much to just win the game.Quote:
Originally Posted by twndomn
My argument is that Jace is the single most powerful spell you could run in your deck, as far as card advantage is concerned. Counterbalance + top in the right matchup can beat it, but that's a combo that requires exact setup. The problem with Jace is that it costs 4 mana. Against mana denial aggro decks, like Death & Taxes and Delver, in order for the 4th Jace to be undesirable, it would have to be replacing a card that was actually better in the matchup at a lower CMC.
Against Delver, you basically have to deal with the creatures they put on board. After a while, you get your lands and their plan falls apart. Is Jace replacing removal spells lower down the curve? I know my version of the deck has 4x Swords and 4x Terminus, so it's not as if I'm going to upgrade the slot to something better against Delver. I do only have 3x Counterbalance maindeck, but I've never been comfortable running the full 4 and I have Predict which is taking that slot, regardless.
My experience against Death & Taxes is limited, since nobody really runs the deck in my area, but from watching streaming/coverage of the matchup Swords and even moreso Terminus seem to be the bottlenecks, once again, with Entreat being the other gamebreaker, given that it always resolves. In particular, having 2-3 copies of miracles rotting in your hand and praying for a brainstorm seems to be a recurring motif. Even if Jace really is just a 4 mana Brainstorm + gain 3-4 life, that still sounds great if Entreat or Terminus is going on top.
Against combo, you can argue that Jace costs too much, but that's complete nonsense. You have a pile of dead cards in those matchups, already, and after sideboarding you have to look for cards to board in. I can't see a 4th Jace being bad there.
And the Midrange decks? Is Jace not "better than all"? We have the best Jace deck in the format. This is what my local metagame looks like, so I suppose I'm a bit biased:
http://www.mtgdecks.net/events/view/11807
Part of my problem with the way people play this deck is that it's a control deck with very few ways to draw cards. The human mind is terrible at probability and the fact that Top digs through cards with replacement makes it less effective than people imagine. They think they're just getting unlucky, but with 45 cards in your deck your basically 10% to see an Entreat on each of the 8 or 9 reshuffles you have in your deck. Doesn't matter how many times you repeat the process, you're not really "getting closer". The deck needs more ways to put itself up on cards. Counter-top isn't that reliable against decks that aren't predominantly 1's. You're only 40-50% to have a Top to go with it in the first few turns of the game. It's a dead (or dormant) card 50% of the time, and that's to say nothing of the times when you don't have the right CMC floating. It's a great combo, but you're not doing enough if that's all you're doing. In my opinion, this deck is first and foremost a Jace/Brainstorm/Miracles deck that also manages to play the countertop combo.
From my experience, the deck doesn't work well as a "trade cards until you run out and I win" sort of strategy. That type of game plan is better left for Jund and Shardless, or even Stoneblade. We are primarily a "stall until I Entreat you" deck with Jace's ultimate as a viable side option. Relying on Jace's ultimate to win you the game gets a whole lot worse with True-Name Nemesis around. There are also plenty of times when I'll beat people to death with Clique, especially against combo (where both Jace and Entreat can be lackluster).Quote:
Originally Posted by Cipher
Although 6 can be very live against them, it is still a fairly big stretch to get it and keep it on top of your library for Balance. Their deck is primarily 3's, 4's, 5's, and 6's with the main threats coming at 5, 6, and 7. DSphere and Jace can be used to get rid of their hardcast threats. Clique is pretty good because they have a lot of late game bad draws (like Metalworker and Grim Monolith, and even Trinisphere/Chalice can be pretty much junk by turn Billion) that you can let them have while shipping the real threats like Karn, Forgemaster, and Steel Hellkite. They have so many dead draws that Clique + Karakas pretty much locks them out of the game.Quote:
Originally Posted by lyracian
When do we prefer Counterbalance over a simple Counterspell?
Against Elves, RUG, UWR, Storm. But Rest in Peace / Ethersworn Canonist would be effective the same
When is useless? DnT, MUD, Merfolk, partially Sneak Show.
I don't know how hot is Counterbalance right now.
Abrupt Decay after TNN is just everywhere..(because of Golgari Charm). I wouldn't play more than 2.
it's terrible in multiple and against Storm and Elves an Ethersworn Canonist is better.
against RUG Rest in Peace is better..
Against Jund RiP is slightly better but they're both bad.. I think there are reasons why Miracle is disappearing from T8s.. and what a shame, I love UW control.. :(
Rug - counter top is really good as their deck curves out to 2 maybe 3 if they run clique or TNN. There really is no reason to side into canonist its not hard to play around daze stifle or spell pierce, you just cant go full retard; with stifle being the most obnoxious. I run rip-helm helps against anything with green or G/B dot decks.Quote:
Originally Posted by Poron
Storm - having fow, spell pierce, counterspell, and counterbalance MD makes miracles the the roughest match up for storm. The majority of TES is 2 or under with mana rocks being at 0, cantrips and rituals being at 1, and the tutors being at 2. Which is easily covered by a decent CB curve. Canonist, fluster storm, EE, and blood moon easily coming in from the side; and having rip Md makes games against ANT easier and can hurt TES as it shuts off their past in flames engine.
DnT - I haven't played against it but you do have a sideboard for a reason. With vial and cavern counterbalance is pretty bad but you can catch some stragglers.
G/B/x - RiP is a MVP while it does get hit by abrupt and pulse it does its job by muling the yard and starving goyfs and deathrites. Counterbalance is still live against g/b dot decks just because it eats abrupt doesn't mean it doesn't have lots of other live targets; and with top, BS, and Jace we will more than likely find another soon, also just holding onto the redundant CB is really good while you may just shuffle it away holding onto it and slamming it after the previous one eats abrupt will hurt your opponent a lot.
Merfolk- CB is not entirely dead against merfolk Bc they don't run cavern so the only thing they have is vial which is only a 40% of being in their opening hand and is definitely FoW worthy. Nuking their vial with a dsphere is really good. Verdict and terminus are the heavy hitters in the match up.
Mud - CB is not as good but our CB does goes up to 6 for wurmcoil and dragon and any other targets they may have. I havent plaued the match up personally though.
Sneak and show - while CB is not as good in the match up your curve can easily hit 3 and 4 but it is mostly dependent on how slow they are or if you have the turn 2 CB, this is a match up where clique can shine though.
And I am really liking my rip- helm list.... MD rip is really good as I have no graveyard dependency. Also really enjoying the synergy with CB and e-tutor because i can counter anything with a 1-4 cmc as well as working towards a combo.
against RUG you don't play canonist. It's a sitting duck for Bolt. You side in RiP
Against storm you want to have 4 Counterbalance, yes. But 2 Ethersworn Canonist + 2 Meddling Mage are worth the same (may be more if you name Burning Wish, Ad Nauseam, Dismember, ecc)
Merfolk do runs Cavern and Aether Vial.
And the actual point is that Abrupt Decay will be more frequent in the next future because of Golgari Charm (to respond TNN). They have 1 more reason to run BG and, at that point, 4 Abrupt Decay is a just a must.
In your list, yes, CB is still very good because you play many targets for AD (Rest in Peace, may be even Energy Field?) and with Enlightened Tutor you have a wonderful hard counter for W.
I think your list wants 4 CBs in its 75s
Other lists, often, apart from CB have offer no target for opponent's removal (<3cc) and without CB you make their removal dead cards. Which is additional plus in removing Counterbalance
@Poron
To me counterbalance is the reason why control can exist. Why would you play a deck that trades 1for1 with a shell of 22+ lands and CMC 4 spells? You have to spend 3-4 cards more than Canadian Thresh/Storm just to get going. Counterbalance provides the much needed CA (and top's filtering in a way I guess) when facing those low-curve-efficient-decks.
Abrupt decay is a problem but there are ways to handle this, siding CB out, playing misdirection, overload on targets etc. Not starting with CB main just seems wrong. If the meta calls for it then I would play another deck with CA from either ancestral vision or Standstill but that's a different deck. I think the best way to fight golgari charm is to counter it with CB or Spell Snare. Golgari Charm is actually pretty bad coming from an agressive strategy against our deck imo.
Abrupt Decay is the card to fear. Golgari Charm is the reason why I fear Abrupt Decay will be more frequent.
This said, I think that the only way to deal with Decay is 4 CBs and overflowing valid targets (Clique, Peace, eventually Pithing Needle) or 0 CBs
Has anyone tried a Scroll Rack? And I mean in a non-Land Tax list… It seems like it could be sweet with Miracles, but I also imagine it's pretty slow.
slow, expensive.. we already have 4 Brainstorm, 2+ SnapMage, 3+ Jace.. to be stuck with Miracle in hand, often is just a matter of bad timed Brainstorm (that's why Top and Ponder, where possible. To save Brainstorms)
Misdirection is pretty good at "countering" Abrupt Decay.Quote:
Originally Posted by Poron
Or you could play Misdirection like Joe Lossett, and enough Abrupt Decay targets to trick your opponent before blowing them out with Misdirection.Quote:
Originally Posted by Poron
yes but what other permanents cc < 3 do we play against Jund and BUG? I was thinking about Meekstone and Rest in Peace
Against decks that can cast Abrupt Decay, you're most likely to be bringing in Rest in Peace, and possibly Needle for Liliana. But you also probably want a maindeck Misdirection, and one or two more in the board -- it's good at winning counter wars, and sometimes hits for value by redirecting a discard spell or something. And against decks that can cast Abrupt Decay, it also functions as a counter for that, and the card disadvantage is often worth maintaining the soft lock.
Whenever somebody says "Abrupt Decay is a card so counterbalance is less useful," or "I should run less counterbalances because people can answer with abrupt decay," I'm not exactly sure how this makes sense. This is not a reason to run less counterbalance. In fact, if anything, this is a reason to run more counterbalance so that even if your opponent gets abrupt decay to answer your counterbalance, you can find another one. If, on the other hand, you want to evaluate the usefulness of counterbalance against decks in general and decide on a number based on that, then that's fine. But please, stop thinking that abrupt decay means you should run less counterbalances for some reason. The percentages of abrupt decays you will find in your opponents' decks is probably not even all that high to begin with.
New to playing the deck myself, but counterbalance has won me the majority of the games I've played in testing. Most of my testing has been against Delver(RUG,URW and BUG), Maverick, Shardless BUG and various Esper Trueblade lists. They can't do anything else until they removed it, and most of the decks that play maindeck answers to counterbalance do not have maindeck answers to large amounts of angels.
Quick question for those more experienced with the deck. What cards would you recommend for fighting the mirror? There is a decent amount of U/W miracles where I play, most of them running the Rest in Peace Combo main, and I'm trying to figure out a sideboard plan though I haven't gotten a chance to test the match yet. What sort of removal should I leave in? Any thoughts?
I run a semi standard U/W/r list without helm combo.
Since most of them are running Rip-Helm, you should win game 1 easily, assuming you are running Legend-Angel or Snapcaster version. In that case, your SB against them can be -2 Snapcaster +2 Wear//Tear (or 1 WT and 1 needle), -2 StP +1 EE +1 needle, and maybe -2 FoW +2 Pyro/REB. In this match-up, Miracle variant vs Miracle variant (not true mirror), a well-timed Clique on a turn with sufficient Mana is the key.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chainer, Dementia Master
On a separate note, the key trend about CB is the popularity of Golgari Charm. Evidently, BUG delver and Shardless BUG pack in Golgari Charm for TNN. However, this charm also happens to destroy enchantment, which is a splash damage Miracle happens to suffer. While we plan to overload the match-up with more enchantments, also note that BUG can overload permanent removals with AD and GC.
Agreeing on that counteralance argument...maybe keeping in mind that tapping out against BGx deck on turn 2 if they have 2 mana open might be wrong, but that's (as always) dependent on the board situation.
@Chainer: First of all welcome to miracles ;)
Covering your questions (although this might be just my personal opinion) I think you're already favored against the RiP list as they have "dead" cards in the maindeck against you and usually less Clique. I recomend leaving in 2 Terminus against Angel-Lists and boarding out all of the other removal (as you will bring in blasts for Clique/Snapcaster).
Counterbalance/ Top or Jace are the winning cards in the mirror. To be able to stick these your best friends are Clique/Snapcaster/ Pierce/ Blasts and the like. The mirror is highly skill dependent and remember not to tap out at the wrong time as this can cost you the game. On the play you can almost always safely cast Top (very important card as well^^) on turn 1, because your opponent cannot cast Top without risking to be cold to your Balance on turn 2 (this scenario depends on your hand- if you hold 2 Pierces waiting might be better). Against more inexperienced players I often play the mirror very defensively, because they might tap out early so you can use Pierce or Blast and cast your permanents without fearing their softcounters.
For more detailed opinion your decklist (and the one of your Opponent) would be important.
Greetings :)
I would only keep terminus/swords post-board in the mirror if you have absolutely nothing else to bring (and then I would probably rebuild the sideboard as drawing blanks in the mirror is about the worst feeling ever playing miracles). As long as you have enough counterspells and a good feel for which cards are important at different stages of the game you will almost never run in to a scenario where it's "terminus or bust". Use the resources and fight for counterbalance and then jace, cement your boardposition with enough counterspells and win eventually in any way you want (most likely a clique killing them). Entreat is a way to steal a game where you have mulliganed/messed up/when your opponent has messed up but it's not plan A. Thinking about the game in the stages of cb -> jace you will soon realize that Terminus will have a to narrow application (swords even less so) to often. Also feel free to try different strategies that fits your playstyle and welcome to the source!:)Quote:
Originally Posted by Chainer, Dementia Master
I started testing with Einherjer's list a few weeks ago as I switched from playing various Delver decks. I really wanted to be able to play large amounts of basics and I missed playing counterbalance. Saw his list while reading a tournament report and have been playing it since. I have been testing the following (Einherjer's list with minimal changes):
3x Jace, The Mind Sculptor
4x Force of Will
4x Brainstorm
4x Sword to Plowshares
4x Terminus
1x Supreme Verdict
1x Counterspell
3x Entreat the Angels
3x Spell Pierce
3x Snapcaster Mage
1x Vendilion Clique
3x Counterbalance
4x Sensei's Divining Top
3x Tundra
2x Volcanic Island
4x Flooded Strand
3x Scalding Tarn
2x Arid Mesa
4x Island
2x Plains
1x Karakas
1x Mystic Gate
Sideboard:
2x Pyroblast
2x Red Elemental Blast
1x Mountain
1x Vendilion Clique
3x Rest In Peace
1x Supreme Verdict
2x Wear/Tear
3x Flusterstorm
Changes from original list:
MD: -1 Island
+1 Volcanic Island
-1 Tundra
+1 Mystic Gate
+1 Terminus
-1 Ponder
SB: -1 Supreme Verdict
+1 Flusterstorm
So far I've tested games against Esperblade, Delver of all Flavors(UWR, RUG, BUG), Death and Tax, BANT, Maverick, Shardless BUG, Nic Fit, 4 Color Loam, TES and ANT.
I've enjoyed the match ups I've played so far.The only deck that came close to being even in matches was Shardless BUG, but I blame that mostly on player error and being unfamiliar with playing against Liliana of the veil. Nic Fit seems like a joke when you play basics(I didn't win very much when I played against Nic Fit with Delver).
In the coming weeks I plan to test games against Jund, Rest in Pieces, the mirror, Sneak and Show, Elves and Deathblade.
What are the most difficult match ups? What decks take you to time a lot? Just trying to make sure I run a proper gauntlet before I consider playing this deck in a tournament.
I am glad you took my list for your testings! You won't be disappointed in the end, I still stand by this list, even though I did Ppay 4 REBs and not 2/2 - ah nevermind^^. I think you know what upsides and downsides your changes have over mine, but you aren't doing wrong things, you just approach it slightely different than I do - totally fair.
As of now there are no bad MUs, though there are a few I am not too confident with beating as of now. First those are the Lilly-Decks Jund and Shardless. both overdo us on CA and apply fair pressure while attacking our Hand and deploying Planeswalkers. Both MUs are not too easy, though winnable. You could tech them out with things like Blood Moon like I did back at GP Strasbourg but I think both, Shardless and Jund are on the decrease in any way given.
Secondly there are Death and Taxes and Sneak Attack. Both MUs aren't bad. They really aren't. But in the configuration I chose to battle with I don't feel confident with playing those decks. My list misses some serious threats against those approaches. Well, DnT has creatures, and we kill them - but I don't play Sulfur Elemental any more or stuff like that. Yeah, Show and Tell won't probably never ever resolve against Fluster, REB, Pierce, Force and Counterspell, but Sneak Attack might, as REB and Fluster are degraded to a "counter-their-counter".
Besides those four MUs I am confident with playing pretty much every other real deck - not counting random-rogue-strategies or "hate-dat-miracle"-piles packing serveral Sulfuric Vortex in their Sideboards. :D
I hope I could help you. If there are still any questions left, feel free to shoot 'em at me.
Greetings
You really should have spent more time on Sneak and Show first, then Tin-Fin. Nic Fit and Loam are not that important. One deck missing is Painter stone.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chainer, Dementia Master
I think there is value in having a couple Terminus post-board. If you have EE then you could bring out Terminus for them instead, but otherwise I think it is important to have an answer to Entreats. Entreat is a pretty good trump and can get around Counterbalance easily. Also, I would leave in at least 2-3 Forces; you will be able to hard cast them by the end of the game. Other than that, Wear//Tear is very good, as are Cliques, Snapcasters, and REBs. Don't board out your Snapcasters. Even if they are RIP, they will most likely board them out, and if they don't then bad draws for them. If you are feeling really hateful, you can board a Luminarch Ascension, which is really good in the mirror but unnecessary for a wider meta. You can easily board out Plows, a Terminus or two, and maybe a Force or two.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mackan
Absolutely true in my opinion! Lategame Entreat gets around you softcounters often so an instant solution is very good.Quote:
I think there is value in having a couple Terminus post-board. If you have EE then you could bring out Terminus for them instead, but otherwise I think it is important to have an answer to Entreats. Entreat is a pretty good trump and can get around Counterbalance easily. Also, I would leave in at least 2-3 Forces; you will be able to hard cast them by the end of the game. Other than that, Wear//Tear is very good, as are Cliques, Snapcasters, and REBs. Don't board out your Snapcasters. Even if they are RIP, they will most likely board them out, and if they don't then bad draws for them. If you are feeling really hateful, you can board a Luminarch Ascension, which is really good in the mirror but unnecessary for a wider meta. You can easily board out Plows, a Terminus or two, and maybe a Force or two.
Hi guys,
Does Rest in Peace Miracles have his own threat or is it still being discussed here? Ik see a lot of discussion about the traditional Uwx Miracles, but I've always had succes with the following list:
Deck: Rest in Peace
Maindeck
1# Vendilion Clique
4# Brainstorm
4# Force of Will
2# Spell Pierce
4# Sword to Plowshares
2# Enlightened Tutor
4# Sensei’s Divining Top
1# Helm of Obedience
3# Rest in Peace
2# Energy Field
2# Counterbalance
1# Blood Moon
1# Detention Sphere
1# Entreat the Angels
3# Terminus
3# Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4# Flooded Strand
2# Polluted Delta
2# Arid Mesa
3# Tundra
2# Volcanic Island
5# Island
2# Plains
1# Glacial Fortress
1# Karakas
Sideboard
1# Engineered Explosives
1# Grafdigger’s Cage
1# Pithing Needle
1# Ensnaring Bridge
1# Ethersworn Canonist
1# Vendilion Clique
1# Counterbalance
1# Humility
1# Moat
1# Supreme verdict
2# Celestial Purge
2# Red Elemental Blast
1# Wear//Tear
The only problem, but I guess that counts also for the traditional build, is that you will draw too often in real life tournaments.. However, this deck can lock up others pretty fast and could force people to scoop. And sometimes it can even combo off pretty quick. Postboard this deck is pure hate! The sideboard answers everything. And some of the most played decks don't have answers vs cards like Rest in Peace, Energy Field, Moat, Blood Moon etc. Another problem with this deck is that I dislike opening hands a little more than with traditional Miracles, but overall I've had more succes with this list =)! Any comments about the list?
@Lans89 I like your list. I am just a fan of rip helm miracles as a whole so you might say I'm a bit biased :p the big difference is that I like 4 terminus and 1 verdict because I like to watch the world burn. I really like verdict and even thought about going 3 terminus and 1 verdict. There have been many times where verdict being uncounterable has won me the game. They always expect terminus but not always verdict. I played rug and they went all out blitz T1 delver T2 blind flip delver cast delver T3 flip delver cast goyf T4 goyf and he ate the verdict on my turn 4 Bc he was on the play and he was a bit agitated to say the least. He told me he played into the board so hard Bc he had 2 forces both with pitch and spell pierce... so to say the least I wouldnt win that counter spell war most likely. Also not having to set up verdict just get to 4 mana for an uncounterable nuke seems good.
Also how is the match up against sneak and show... Bc it felt so awful I wanted to cry just a bit.... it was the first matchup that felt extremely negative and the decks I play against regularly is:
Rug
Dnt
Shardless bug
Team America
TES
Merfolk
Elf's
Burn
Blade
Maverick
And sneak and show
And S&h is the first that I felt I couldn't win except for stone cold nuts to a bad or shaky keep.
Any advice for the matchup pre and post board?
I guess I should post something since I will officially be playing this deck soon. Here is my current list. I'd like to just have it in here for reference.
4 Brainstorm
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Counterbalance
3 Swords to Plowshares
3 Terminus
2 Supreme Verdict
2 Entreat the Angels
3 Vendilion Clique
1 Thassa, God of the Sea
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Spell Pierce
2 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
5 Island
2 Plains
2 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
1 Mystic Gate
2 Karakas
4 Flooded Strand
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Misty Rainforest
2 Polluted Delta
1 Arid Mesa
SB
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Venser, Shaper Savant
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast
2 Bloodmoon
3 Rest in Peace
2 Flusterstorm
1 Meddling Mage
1 Pithing Needle
I've never been a fan of the singleton narrow answers like that. I could see if my opponent had Snapcasters, though. You basically have to be floating the terminus on top of your deck, or have it in hand with a Brainstorm, which means it just about worse than any other answer in your deck. In my list, I'd be cutting an actual good card in the matchup to make room, since I cut:Quote:
Originally Posted by Dzra
-4 Swords
-4 Terminus
+1 Venser
+1 Entreat
+1 Counterbalance
+2 REB
+1 Unexpectedly Absent
+2 Engineered Explosives
Answers to Entreat late game are:
4 Force of Will
3 Vendilion Clique
2 Counterspell
1 Venser
3 Entreat (maybe...)
Early game or when it's less than lethal the card is obviously even easier to answer, but my point is that if you're not tapped out you can beat the card on the stack, and if you are, then Terminus on the angels isn't likely to happen, either.
I'm curious what people's sideboarding looks like in the mirror that they even consider cutting Force of Will. I suppose I'm running more removal than most? I think Joe leaves in spot removal for Vendilion Clique, but between 3 REB, 2 Engineered Explosives, and your own creatures, getting beatdown by the 5 creatures in your opponent's deck seem more of a nightmare than a real threat.
Jace on turn 4 on an empty board, now? CB + Top turn 2? How many games have you essentially been locked out of with nearly a full grip? I don't think Force is bad at all.
Never take out force of will in the mirror. In my experience (from tournaments and a 12 game testing session with a friend)*, the games almost always revolved around Jace and counterbalance. What's worth noting? The game can be over by turn 2 or 3. Almost all the games that we played were determined by who could resolve one of these two cards and keep it for at least a turn. Even though Miracles is a slow deck, some of our cards are so powerful that you need to make sure your opponent doesn't get them in play. Additionally, the games will go long (assuming neither of you run away with the game early), so hard cast force of will definitely becomes relevant. It's very tempting to take out forces, but it's really just too important to help you gain early control of the game.
On another note, Vendilion Clique is one of the best cards in the mirror. It doesn't necessarily run away with the game like balance and Jace (unless they can't find removal/stop it originally!), but it does a ridiculous amount for you. First, it pressures Jace, which is huge. Second, it sets up plays for you. When you can go Clique -> Take something valuable, your next turn you generally have the flexibility to play most anything from your deck safely. For basically these reasons, Clique is pretty much one of the best cards against anything that doesn't care about the combat step that much, and I really think there should be three somewhere in the 75. As has been mentioned, running it in the main feels kind of mediocre right now, but I've been toying with running a full 3 in the side which has been pretty appealing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Moose8583
Really? I find SnS one of the easier combo matchups honestly. What does your list look like?
Meddling Mage, Vendilion Clique, REB, Humility, Pithing Needle, Ensnaring Bridge, etc. are all good vs them.
Thassa is bad in this deck, it's not even certain if it would be a stable in any legacy decks.Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrunkenphat7
Your opponent is incompetent then. Let's look at Sneak and Show Primer on this forum:Quote:
Originally Posted by alphastryk
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?27217
"UWr Miracles 55:45
An annoying, but overall positive matchup. They have a lot of hate and games get really grindy once they have their countertop engine online. The big upside however is that they present absolutely no clock, which gives you all the time you need to sculpt the perfect hand. Still, the best-case scenario is an explosive
start with an early Sneak Attack, because later it can get difficult if they have a 3- and a 4-drop on top of their deck alongside Countertop.
Like against the other Karakas / Jace - decks you don't want to blindly go for Show and Tell into Emrakul if you can avoid it.
Bounce-spells are very important against Miracles, in anticipation of Pithing Needle, Ensnaring Bridge, Humility and sometimes even against Counterbalance or Entreat the Angels tokens.
Cards you want to sideboard against UWr Miracles: Through the Breach, Red Elemental Blast, Echoing Truth, Wipe Away, Vendilion Clique, Jace, the Mind Sculptor, Progenitus"
Pre-board is actually really bad for Miracle, since it has too many dead cards like multiple StP and maybe some dead Supreme Verdict, and maybe dead RiP if you MD it. This match-up is another reason why RiP-Helm is bad. RiP is a dead card if your opponent's running a combo that's not too reliant on graveyard.
I see this come up a lot, and I still disagree. The general plan postboard vs combo should be to get more aggressive / fishy (clique, meddling mage, etc) and to board out slower / dead cards. I've played agiainst a lot of good SnS players and played the matchup from the other side and still think it is in Miracles favor, maybe 65-35.
I'm not sure what exactly I'm doing differently if anything, but the consensus here in Atlanta is definitely in Miracles' favor for whatever that's worth.
I don't understand what you're trying to say. Are you saying that because Thassa hasn't proven itself as a "staple" in a Legacy deck, that means that it must not be good?Quote:
Originally Posted by twndomn
My list has 10 permanents maindeck that have UU in their casting cost. Her Think Tank ability is pretty solid in this deck with a top in play, and her creature body is pretty sick when it gets active. One scenario would be I have a Thassa and Counterbalance in play, and I play a Jace. I then suddenly also have a 5/5 indestructible creature in play to protect the Jace. You can also do shenanigans with flashy Cliques and protect with Karakas. She's a good win con that isn't as clunky as playing more miracles that get stranded in your hand at awkward times.
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Originally Posted by Moose8583
I tend to agree. Really, any combo deck should be well in our favor. Show and Tell as a card isn't too scary, unless it is t1. It's usually Sneak Attack or SNT + Sneak Attack that cause problems. Ideally, your opening hand should be able to deal with the potential t1 or t2 SNT. The best way to do that is with cards to drop like Karakas, Venser, Pithing Needle, and ORing/DSphere, although Force, REB, and Pierce can sometimes be alright.Quote:
Originally Posted by alphastryk
Next, since we are a relatively slow deck, you want to be able to form a mid-late game plan. Things that usually close out the game are Humility, Needle + Karakas, or Counterbalance + Top (with 3 and especially 4 cmc floating). Once you have one of these assembled, they will be fighting an uphill battle against your ever-accumulating counters and disruption. If you have a choice, always leave up a 3cmc when you pass back to them so that they don't Wipe Away EoT. For SBing, board in Venser, ORing/DSphere, Meddling Mage, Humility, Pithing Needle, REBs, Cliques, and any extra counters. You can board out RIPs, Plows, Entreats, Supreme Verdict(s), and a Terminus or two (I'd leave in ~2 Terminus if I had room). Note that some of the best SNT hate are 3 and 4 drops.
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Originally Posted by Dzra
EE = Engineered Explosives, if you have those then you probably don't need Terminus since EE is just as cheap and much more versatile.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cipher
Although very narrow, it is sometimes applicable to counter their Terminus by flipping your own Terminus. Though if you have Supreme Verdict(s) in your board then it is probably better to just switch them out since 4cmc is relevant far more often.
Thassa is the definition of win more. To have a 5/5 body, you need 3 permanents in play like Thassa + Jace + Counterbalance/Clique. In that situation, you should be winning already. Thassa doesn't dig you out of a hole against midrange/aggro, does not disrupt combo, and is a very very slow card quality generator. Another Clique, Entreat or Snapcaster would be better in the Thassa slot.