My friend just picked up the blue red delver with full waste and stifle. Alot harder to storm out than the old price of progress bluered delver lists.
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My friend just picked up the blue red delver with full waste and stifle. Alot harder to storm out than the old price of progress bluered delver lists.
6-3 with 2 byes this weekend. Lost to ur omni halls, uwr delver, and rug. I punted one game from stacking ponder wrong which wouldve beaten trip force , daze fluster. Played in sunday series and lost to the duke in semifinals. Got good experience with deck for vegas. Looking forward to everyone else's stories.
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I'm hoping that tempo pretty much narrows down to the best TNN deck which I'm guessing is going to be some flavor of UWx in order to take advantage of SFM/equipment. I think storm can succeed in such an environment since ANT/TES doesn't care all that much about TNN.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
Some notes on the weekend:
1) I suck. There was a match where I could've possibly won, but who knows. Here's the situation, it's game three, my opponent has a Stoneforge and a Delver equipped with Sword of Feast and Famine. He pondered and kept on his turn. I know both of his other cards are lands. I'm at 13, my opponent is at 17 - storm is 5, haven't played a land. I resolve Ad Nauseam with RB floating and an untapped Gemstone Mine, it reveals Burning Wish, Silence, Burning Wish, Empty the Warrens, Silence, Gitaxian Probe, Giataxian Probe, Underground Sea, Rite of Flame (One in the yard). Do you stop at 1? I've used one Lotus Petal prior to this. I thought for sure his last card was Stifle.
I revealed Ponder and died.
2) Tropical Island was super good all weekend, against UWr, Sneak Show and Miracles.
3) 6-3 day one with two byes in your preferred format is worse than being diagnosed with Cancer.
4) Kevin Mckee is awesome, I now own 4 Japanese foil Cabal Therapy.
5) Got Alexander to match the signature on my other Sea.
6) Ari played TES and went 6-3 with three byes. I really wanted us both to crush.
7) Lists are awesome.
8) I met a gentleman who was 8-1 at the end of day 1 with the deck.
9) I signed a whiteboardered Grapeshot.
10) He whiteboardered everything. Yes, even the LEDs.
11) I would play the same seventy-five all over again.
12) Bad luck happens sometimes.
13) I had a situation where Brainstorming into Dark Ritual and Infernal Tutor for Abrupt Decay on Dueling Grounds won me a round.
14) Thalia is a hooker.
15) It was nice meeting some of you.
16) Lists are still awesome.
17) Thank you.
One of my opponents was like so your TEZ right,after i beat him. (I was like o boy he we go) I said no im playing ANT. He then asks whats the difference between TEZ and ANT (I dont even play the deck and was offended lol) I said well first off its called The Epic Storm! lol
I'm just pretty much annoyed to play against the various flavors of 3-color-delvers, every round, every week and may need a break from that shit or an innovation against tempoQuote:
Originally Posted by davelin
Related to:
1) I suck. There was a match where I could've possibly won, but who knows. Here's the situation, it's game three, my opponent has a Stoneforge and a Delver equipped with Sword of Feast and Famine. He pondered and kept on his turn. I know both of his other cards are lands. I'm at 13, my opponent is at 17 - storm is 5, haven't played a land. I resolve Ad Nauseam with RB floating and an untapped Gemstone Mine, it reveals Burning Wish, Silence, Burning Wish, Empty the Warrens, Silence, Gitaxian Probe, Giataxian Probe, Underground Sea, Rite of Flame (One in the yard). Do you stop at 1? I've used one Lotus Petal prior to this. I thought for sure his last card was Stifle.
You stop before Ponder and
with BR Floating and gemstone, you play Undergroud sea --> Total 4 mana + 2 from RoF= 8 storm--> B.Wish to Tendrils total = 16 life (need 1 f** point) you hold b.wish for next turn and doublé gitaxian will find the mana for grapshoting, depending on the mana already in play for next turn and on the gitaxian plus Step draw, I think this is the way.
The reallity is that if he kept then it can be pierce or stifle or daze or fluster or surgical and all of these things shuts the plan. but he maybe simply 'kept', paranoids.
I had three lands to start the turn, two Gemstones with one counter each and Underground Sea.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pelikanudo
I betrayed Bryant this weekend and played a 3 wish ANT abomination to an 11-4 finish getting me 64th place. My mana was awful and I got punished for it in two of my rounds so I'm re-sleeving TES for the time being.
Thx for the link. Premium access ran out, so maybe anyone would like to summarize? Any new ideas?Quote:
Originally Posted by Bryant Cook
He talks about how combo can beat multiple permission spells, that we are a turn faster and he mentions that he sided in past in flames (he played iggy and deathmark) He went over his flawed assumptions on card availability and gloated about himself. One interesting mention was on playing against storm and the difficulty associated with it.
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Hopefully not breaking any forum rules. To summarize -Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
1) TNN wasn't as prevalent in the earlier rounds
2) Storm loses against certain draws. The examples he gave were nut draws so not sure if that's new.
3) Playing against storm can be hard since most don't know how to properly play storm
4) Likes TES over ANT because of less Stifle targets and Wasteland isn't as much an issue (not sure I agree with this last point)
Sadly I went 6-3 in DC with one bye, failing to (likely) make Day 2 due to pilot error - the worst mistake I've ever made in competitive magic.
Game 3 vs Shardless BUG, I have 2x Underground Sea, Gemstone Mine with one counter, and Xantid Swarm. I'm at 7. My opponent is at 16, has Vendilion Clique and lands, and likely lots of counterspells in hand. I attack with Swarm, then play Rite of Flame, Dark Ritual, Burning Wish for Grapeshot, and Empty the Warrens for 8 Goblins. It's a race.
My opponent attacks me to 4 with his Clique and passes back; I draw a Gemstone Mine - yes! I can actually cast the Grapeshot! So I swing with Xantid Swarm and Grapeshot the Clique...and then try to attack with my Goblins.
:-(
Needless to say he rips Deathrite Shaman next turn and drains me for the win.
The deck was a great choice for the meta as I started off 5-0, but I didn't play well enough to win. Next time, I guess. Maybe I'll get to meet some of you other Stormers then, too.
Here's a situational food-for-thought:
Opening hand is a 14 goblin hand; Lands, rituals, a Burning Wish, an LED, and a Gitaxian Probe. It's game two on the play of the RUG matchup and you lead with a probe to see they have Rough/Tumble in hand and two lands, but no Force of Will so your hand is guaranteed to resolve.
The question: Do you go all in on the goblins to put RUG at at least 6 (less if they have fetchlands) and hope to draw-step into a hand to finish them off? The line of thought being they'll damage themselves to make a wee Tendril or Grapeshot lethal, provided your top deck skills are complete.
Back to the situation at hand, what do you do?
2 + 1 + 2 + 4 + 1 + 1 + 1 + 1 = 13, you cheater. next time just say you're at 5 and keep flipping.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bryant Cook
I wouldn't mind twist myself even if I can bring my opponent to 6.Quote:
Originally Posted by jandax
I made almost this exact play and it didn't work out for me. I saw fetch, brainstorm, spell pierce, spell snare x2, rough//tumble, daze. He brainstormed into a second land and I couldn't recover.Quote:
Originally Posted by jandax
The difference is I had the Empty the Warrens in hand, not a Burning Wish. With a Burning Wish in hand I'd do something else, whether it be Reforge the Soul, Diminishing Returns, or even Past in Flames. But probably one of the first two.
Asshat. It might've been one Silence or one Probe, but it really doesn't matter.Quote:
Originally Posted by Royce Walter
Depending on yoir opponents hand, you either slow roll till you find a second protection spell to dismember rough/tumble or you go for dim.ret.Quote:
Originally Posted by jandax
Wasting all your resources without a chance to kill your opponent for turns is a losing play, so goblins are no option
No one can claim that storm players are good at math.Quote:
Originally Posted by Royce Walter
An interesting scenario came up in Joe's Miracle stream tonite.
It's Game 3 versus The EPIC Storm. We made a misplay by letting Xantid Swarm resolve, then decided to jump in front of it with Clique and hopefully disrupt on the combo player's Turn 3. He has not made a land drop, and Storm is 1 (Clique).
http://i.imgur.com/uB7AGN2.png
What should the Miracle player take, and why?
Assume that the Sideboard for BWish has no limit, and any Sorcery could be used.
We don't know what card is on top of the deck.
Show your work :)
looks simple, DR - because you're dead with CC 0 on your topQuote:
Originally Posted by Koby
Answered this already in the Miracles Thread. Slosh is spot-on.
Storm side.Quote:
Originally Posted by Koby
No cards taken: go for it. lead with rite of flame> rite of flame( see the flip). wish If resolves. get kill engine( IGG/PiF). d rit. petal. kill engine( recurring second wish.
-loses to CB on one or two
CB player counter the second ritual. if you don't stop that you likely lose on the spot unless the top card is a two. a one in this situation also stops them cold.
Wish taken: one unknown, no redundancy, but they can also draw out to one of the 6 tutors left (6/37) / land
- loses to CB on two. two lines open if CB is 0 or 1: rip 0 cmc mana source(9 lands, 2petals, 3 chrome mox, 4 LED.) and DR(likely beats CB on one) or ritual out ( beats CB on 0)
-petal taken:best card to take is the petal stops line that beats CB on one. hardest line for tendrils player i think. prevents DR from just being cast if another card is taken and a 0 mana source is drawn: 9 lands, 2petals, 3 chrome mox, 4 LED. ( 18/37 outs almost 50%. don't take wish)
-loses to CB on one or two
depends on the left over remains in CB deck. not sure on distribution( helpful form CB player viewpoint, which i presume would know the contents of their deck ;))
I know I wouldn't play CB without knowing my outs by heart
too much ritual redundancy (hope for a one)
taking the petal puts them off the 6 mana required if you have a one( stops the line that has a chance to beat the one on top)
and a two just stops them
edit: was the last ponder a shuffle or a set?
if he is attacking with swarm he is killing you now so presumably has all he needs. the third card down on ponder if set is probably not relevant, but still has the most chances to be a zero mana source to open up the most ways to beat CB.
Why should you take the Petal as a +1 manasource instead of a +2 one especially with an active Counterbalance in a deck playing 22+ 0cc cards?Quote:
Originally Posted by ThomasDowd
don't know. I think taking the second line from them is better when the top card is unknown than relying on the coin flip from counterbalance. can't stop the ritual line unless you hit a one, there are still draws(9 lands+probes, + rituals) that win them the game if you take a ritual through a zero on CB. note: these draws also have a chance to win through a one on CB (+any artifact mana,- probes- rituals)Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
Taking petal nukes their zero line and you need a one.
Might be having the luxury of choice but it makes me feel more in control and comfortable about the situation. knowing that i have the means to beat 0 and 1 is convenient (dead to 2 anyway). taking redundant mana such as rituals when if you don't hit a one on CB you are likely dead anyway seems like a waste.
the only cards i wouldn't want are the disruption, mana cantrips, and BW so maybe 15 ish cards? the infernal tutors are still pretty good. can go get another rite or rit depending on what you took.
i think the situation is all in on having a one on top for CB
The point is that they need the "redundant mana" to do anything that matters and still need to beat the blind-flip. Sure they can rip a discard off the top and Ride the Goblins, but you still have the Brainstorm left to find a solution the next turn. The Ritual limits the options to a minimumQuote:
Originally Posted by ThomasDowd
I think I take a burning wish, which would cut him from getting pif and killing me. Assuming of course I don't have a 1 or two on top
Can't "ride the goblins" against us here, we have EE. I would take a Wish since we have FoW for the other one.
You can't counter the Wish played this turn thanks to Xantid. If you bottom down a Wish and they draw a discard like Duress, they can get rid of the EE and smash your face with Goblins until you (hopefully) find a solution with the Brainstorm left.Quote:
Originally Posted by HammafistRoob
If they draw mana off the Clique they can go for Diminishing Returns with even more mana floating than the 3 they already have, unless you have the 1cc topdeck which negates all outs regardless
The Dark Ritual is easily the right card to take.
Things to keep in mind, guys:
1. Miracles cannot cast spells this turn due to the attacking [cards]Xantid Swarm[/card] (Other than the Vendilion Clique that was cast in response to the attack).
2. A Counterbalance reveal of 1 or 2 will shut down the storm player for this turn.
What I want to know is this: Why not cast Brainstorm in response and be able to somewhat control what the top card would be at that point? I think there's a much greater chance of the storm player holding redundancy in his hand than being able to beat a 1 or 2 perma-counter trigger for his turn. Am I mistaken? Placing Counterspell back on top means that I need 1 of 60 cards in my hand (Ad Nauseam) and finding and placing a 1CMC back on top shuts down cantrips/rituals. I think putting a 2CMC blind on top would be a good choice and would most likely burn through several of their rituals and a tutor in one go.
Geez that interface is ugly..
If you BS in response you can't clique and he gets to keep swarm. I like the block, take wish. If you don't take wish, assuming nothing on top to counter anything, he can go, rite RR, rite RRRR, PETAL, wish RR, RETURNS with a petal left and a land drop to make.
There a two wishes. Taking one results into Dim.Ret. with AT LEAST 3 mana float or EtW if he drew into a discard Spell. Taking nothing results into a PIF kill. Taking Ritual results into a Dim.Ret. with a single mana float.Quote:
Originally Posted by Megadeus
To me, the last seems the best from the perspective of Miracles
That was my "less than 1 minute" conclusion as well, but there were a lot of differing opinions about that line of play from the other viewers. (FYI, I was viewing, not playing. The actions taken in the game don't really matter for this decision point.)Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
For consideration:
What card would replace Dark Ritual that could worsen the scenario for Miracles?
Would there be a substantial difference in replacing Dark Ritual with a land (net -1 mana)? With LED (net +1 mana)?
The assumption is neither player knows the top card of the Miracles deck.
- A Zero on top would stop Lotus Petal and a potential LED topdeck, thus shutting off the 3rd source of black. See note below.
- A One on top would stop all the rituals. Thanks for playing. GG.
- A Two on top would stop all the tutors. Thanks for playing. GG.
Assuming Miracles having a Zero on top (since all others are auto-wins), taking the DR would make black mana the choke point and limit the win conditions to EtW. The live re-draws off Clique would then be:
- 3 Gemstone Mine, 2 City of Brass, 1 Underground Sea, 2 fetchlands = 8 lands
- 3 Dark Ritual
- EDIT: 2 Rite of Flame
- 1 Thoughtseize & 2 Cabal Therapy
- 1 Ad Nauseam
- + cantrips -- outside the scope of this analysis. I don't have time to work these scenarios out.
A total of 17 cards in a 47 card deck, or 36.2% live draws. Seems low for TES and high for Miracles to chose this line.
This 36.2% would allow TES to play three (4?) lines:
- Cast discard to muck the EE, then proceed to EtW for (Clique,Petal,RoF,RoF,Discard,BW->EtW,EtW) 14 Goblins, which gives Miracles 2 draw steps to find a sweeper.
- Cast Dark Ritual to win with a PIF line (rituals, BW->PIF, rituals, BW->Tendrils)
- Cast Rite of Flame to win with a PIF line (Mine->RoF(RR),RoF(RRRR),RoF(RRRRRRR), BW->PIF (R),RoF(RRRR), RoF(RRRRRR), RoF(RRRRRRR), BW->Tendrils (RRRRR+USea+Petal) = Strom 10)
- Cast Ad Nauseam with R floating from 19 life
- Would a land help in this case? It only changes the mana from 9 to 8, and prevents BW->Thoughtseize, then BW->EtW
Alternatively, DReturns is still open, but with only a single R left over. TES would need to draw a Dark Ritual and a land to be able to win out of this situation. I'm not sure how good those odds are.
Are there any other lines I'm missing from the TES perspective?
(Bryant's list from the OP is used for consideration, which plays 2 Cabal Therapy and 1 Thoughtseize maindeck. Assume this is G1 too for simplicity.)
If he drew a third Rite of Flame a Past in Flames kill would also be a consideration.Quote:
Originally Posted by Koby
Noted. I'll adjust the post to account for it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bryant Cook
I tip my hat for all the work you put into this.Quote:
Originally Posted by Koby
As I mentioned earlier, the chance to have a 0cc card on top is pretty damn high and every 1cc or 2cc on top is a game winner as well. Making black mana the "chokepoint" is ergo a wise decision considering the gamestate and the possible blanks TES might draw.
I would like to second these sentiments.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bryant Cook