Sorry - I missed this post. Cursed Scroll is great. Considering your ditching your hand to brutality, smallpox and liliana - it's often active. And it functions as a CA engine vs small creature decks.Quote:
Originally Posted by streetMage
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Sorry - I missed this post. Cursed Scroll is great. Considering your ditching your hand to brutality, smallpox and liliana - it's often active. And it functions as a CA engine vs small creature decks.Quote:
Originally Posted by streetMage
Nether Spirit also fills that role, I think one of the more important functions of Cursed Scroll is challenging any enemy PW.Quote:
Originally Posted by ClimbGneiss
I note you have 60 cards in main deck. Add a third Abrupt Decay and play with 61.Quote:
Originally Posted by ClimbGneiss
Pretty simple to remove a Diabolic Edict for the 3rd decay and then drop the 2 from the board. 3 Brutality is likely too much, but if it has worked for you then that is great.Quote:
Originally Posted by ClimbGneiss
Honestly that's my current plan. I never really mind 61. What are thoughts on my sb choices?Quote:
Originally Posted by Hardcore
Duress is weak as SB card. You already have 1cc discard in main.
What do you all think of Choke in the sideboard?
Also, are there any cards I'm not thinking of that are good versus storm/show and tell that would be good for GB sideboard?
I have seen Choke being played recently, but don't know how good it is. You will probably like it because it's cool and nasty:laugh:
You already have anti storm tech. Null rod, surgicals... As for show and tell you might just choose to hope not to encounter any. It is hard to build a sb against everything.
(Pithing needles are useful against Griselbrand.)
Worm Harvest, Drown in Filth
Desolation should be possible to abuse for a loam deck. Especially one with four Mox.
Worm's Harvest. Oh the fun.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hardcore
I like Darkblast a lot better than Drown in Filth, but DiF is one of those cool cards that is just on the edge of playable.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hardcore
Worm Harvest is just abysmally slow. I think I'd rather play more Bloodghasts. I am slightly biased however because when I play B/g pox I play Crop Rotation/Depths/Stage/Hexmage.
Against Show and Tell I really like Ensnaring Bridge, for storm Crop Rotation into Bojuka Bog is really good but I always played a couple of Surgical Extractions as well.
Mini Report!
I played in the Legacy Champs Trial at GP PVD on Saturday. There was a small turnout, but we had fun. 4 rounds of swiss, 4-0 records playoff for a bye to EW.
I was playing Mono Black, as follows:
10 Swamp
4 Wasteland
4 Mishra's Factory
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Cabal Pit
1 Tomb of Urami
4 Dark Ritual
4 Thoughtseize
3 Innocent Blood
2 Cursed Scroll
2 Pithing Needle
4 Smallpox
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Sinkhole
2 Ratchet Bomb
1 Collective Brutality
4 Liliana of the Veil
2 Toxic Deluge
1 Nether Spirit
1 Night of Soul's Betrayal
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Collective Brutality
3 Tombstalker
2 Pithing Needle
1 To The Slaughter
1 Ob Nixilis Reignited
1 Black Sun's Zenith
Round 1: Spanish Inquisition.
I win the roll, I Thoughtseize, take a Chrome Mox, turn 2 Smallpox, turn 3 Ratchet Bomb hitting Lotus Petal and Chrome Mox. They never recovered.
Game 2 they turn 1 Charbelcher me. I take 17. I cast Pithing Needle, they die to their Pact Trigger.
1-0
Round 2: Punishing Maverick.
I didn't take notes, but I lost game 1 to Stage/Depths after grinding them down to nothing. Games 2 and 3 were equally grindy. I won in turns.
2-0
Round 3: Death and Taxes.
Game one was all Pithing Needle on Vial and Smallpox being great. I kept him off mana most of the game.
Game 2 was super grindy, and I lost to multiple Swords equipped to a SFM.
Game 3 drew in turns. I missed a couple of damage early on and could have squeaked out the win. Don't miss damage.
2-0-1
Round 4: Nic-Fit.
We ID'd to maximize prizes, then played it out. I lost in 3 games. We're good against this deck if we keep them off Sigarda. If they land her its Deluge or bust.
2-0-2, which was good enough for 11 Ixalan packs.
It was fun, I wish I could have gone to the sunday event as well. The deck felt good, the meta was bizarre. Show and tell vs. 4 color Leovold was the top table round 4. I saw Elves, Belcher, Burn, Goblins around me at various times. No delver to be found.
Nice! I wonder if sigarda is affected by a vengeful pharaoh in the graveyard?
Sigarda has hexproof so can't be targeted by pharaoh, but you can target another attacking creature if you were attacked by sigarda and another creature.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hardcore
The creatures that attack and deal damage are still considered to be attacking well after damage, but not before moving into your second main-phase.
See maze of ith for dealing damage with your own creature and then untapping it (for blocking next turn) after damage is dealt but before second main-phase.
So I played in several 4 round tournaments at SCG Dallas over the past weekend and overall went 7-5. Each 4 round tournament went as follows; 3-1, 2-2, and 2-2.
This is the list I'm running at the moment but it's always changing;
1 Maze of Ith
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Geier Reach Sanitarium
2 Cabal Pit
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Wasteland
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
8 Swamp
2 Hymn to Tourach
2 Sinkhole
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Thoughtseize
4 Dark Ritual
4 Smallpox
2 Innocent Blood
1 Fatal Push
1 Word of Command
1 Grim Tutor
4 Liliana of the Veil
1 Chains of Mephistophelies
1 Nether Void
1 The Abyss
1 Nevinyrral's Disk
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Crucible of Worlds
2 Cursed Scroll
2 Phyrexian Totem
1 Trinisphere
1 Helm of Obedience
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Pithing Needle
1 Black Sun's Zenith
1 Engineered Plague
1 Night of Souls' Betrayal
2 Phyrexian Obliterator
2 Ensnaring Bridge
Overall I felt very satisfied with the list and will make some small changes.
At the tournament, there was an over-representation of D&T players, not very much combo at all, and a few people on pet decks (like myself). If you have any questions about my list or specific matchups please ask away!
Yesterday I saw many planeswalkers, with the new rules in play and all. One dude even played with captain sisay!
Unfortunately my timing was bad ;I had just replaced my pithing needles with cursed scrolls and as a consequence went 1-3:p
This is a bit off topic. But I would like to ask Mr. Safety how his pox with 4 Therapy 4 Bitterblossom he posted some time in summet went? I really like the list and think it has potential. Bitterblossom with less and less decay everywhere is the way to go I think... Thank you!!Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Safety
Any thoughts on the Pox list? http://porotour.com/legacy-champs-pakkajakauma/ it managed to top8 local tourney.
Creatures (8)
4 Bloodghast
4 Dark Confidant
Non-Creature Spells (28)
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Dark Ritual
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Smallpox
4 Thoughtseize
4 Liliana of the Veil
2 Collective Brutality
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Fatal Push
Lands (24)
2 Bloodstained Mire
10 Swamp
4 Mishra’s Factory
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Wasteland
Sideboard (15)
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Fatal Push
2 Dread of Night
2 Pithing Needle
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Collective Brutality
2 Duress
A very meta dependent list. Not something to bring to a major tournament I figure. I have a set of chalice too, which I used against storm mostly. However they are best in the sideboard. Pox is not a pure hate deck like moon stompy and you will find they are not good against all match-ups. To our decks they are silver bullets to use mostly against decks that play zero mana Artifacts (storm, show and tell) and burn. Delvers decks are better handled by stuff like cursed scroll, for example. I have switched to pithing needle in the main because, unlike chalice, they are both answers and disruption. A favorite is to needle deathrite shaman. It also stop eye of ugin, vial, sfm, and any equipment and planeswalker. To mention a select few possible targets.
Confidant is perfectly fine, since he doesn't play big Pox and consequently don't need worry about life loss that much. Thoughtseize should be replaced though.
Also, the correct number of chalice of the void in main deck is three.
It was really good, but I didn't get to play it in paper tournaments. I'm sold on Bitterblossom being the way to go with mono-black Pox. I also played Bloodghast, which is another great Cabal Therapy target. I played online (Magic Workstation, not MODO) and pissed off a ton of people, lol. They just couldn't beat a turn 2 Bitterblossom.Quote:
Originally Posted by Koplinchen
The matchups I faced were: grixis delver, bug leovold, Czech Pile, and some homebrews. I remember Ratchet Bomb being incredibly good maindeck as well, it just dealt with everything. I also played Thoughtseize over Inquisition of Kozilek (3 I think.)
I've been messing around a lot with G/B decks lately, mostly in terms of Nic Fit, Maverick, and Rock. Coming across the Veteran Explorer/Cabal Therapy synergy I couldn't help but be reminded of old Extended with Sakura Tribe Elder + Death Cloud. Call me crazy, but is Veteran Explorer in a pox shell worth developing? I say this because one of the easiest ways for an opponent to crawl back into a game against pox is to topdeck out of it. With Explorer conveniently digging out lots of extra lands, doesn't that make Pernicious Deed a lot more powerful? This is just an experiment, a point for discussion mind you. I'm not saying this is actually good, nor do I think I will actually attempt this. Nic Fit is much better at utilizing more lands for bigger bombs. It's just an idea, and possibly a bad one because mana denial is key to a Pox strategy.
4x Veteran Explorer
3x Bloodghast
4x Cabal Therapy
2x Thoughtseize
4x Hymn to Tourach
4x Smallpox
1x Pox
3x Abrupt Decay
2x Collective Brutality
3x Pernicious Deed
3x Liliana of the Veil
1x Garruk Relentless
1x Life from the Loam
1x Sylvan Library
4x Verdant Catacombs
2x Bloodstained Mire
2x Windswept Heath
1x Bayou
4x Swamp
3x Forest
1x Cabal Pit
4x Wasteland
1x Mishra's Factory
2x Urborg
Very rough list. Explorer ramps opponents into lands, but most players don't play more than 2-3 basics. Smallpox, Cabal Therapy, and Pox help to trigger explorer and get extra lands for us. Therapy and Hymn should make opposing plays fairly unimportant, and anything small that gets onto the field should get cleaned up with Deed/Brutality/Decay.
Interested to see what people think of the concept...I really wanted to include Death Cloud but I think Pox is just the straight-faced version of Death Cloud in Legacy.
What you guys think of this Loam Pox mtgtop8 list?: http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=17049&d=305464&f=LE
Interesting tech with Buried Ruin...he runs atleast seven targets(including sideboard).
Ruin + Engineered Explosives is pretty neat.
He also runs Cursed Scroll and Batterskull mainboard.
what are people's thoughts on Hymn to Tourach? I see a lot of lists not running the full four, though it seems to me like one the major reasons to play Pox
I guess it's a bit slow in some ways, and not choosing the targets is both good and bad (can hit lands, but can't hit what you care about every time)
Anyway, just thought I'd ask. Looking to make room in my list for some Phyrexian Totems, and thinking of what to cut.
The main reason to play less than 4 is that (as with all the discard spells) it's a bad topdeck in a deck that topdecks a lot.Quote:
Originally Posted by aslidsiksoraksi
It can also have diminishing returns in multiples (but admittedly sometimes it is great in multiples depending on the matchup and how the game plays out).
Has anybody thought about trying Arguel's Blood Fast?
- Extra source of card draw in grindy matchups (Not a good combo with Chains of Mephistopheles)
- Can be flipped to either gain a chunk of life with e.g. Tombstalker or as a repeated source of lifegain with Nether Spirit (or Crucible + Factory etc)
The right amount of Hymn is totally dependent on how many one-mana targeted discard spells you play, in my opinion. If you are skimping on thoughtseize/inquisition of kozilek/cabal therapy because you have other 1-mana cards to consider (cursed scroll, dark ritual) then I think you should go the full 4 Hymns. If you are playing more targeted discard than usual (5-6 is typical, 7-8 is not typical) then you can start cutting some Hymns because Hymn's randomness is generally less powerful than targeted discard, especially against combo. I always like to have a solid 10 slots dedicated just to pure discard, which usually means 6x targeted + 4x Hymn. If you want more targeted discard (fast combo in your metagame) then I would cut Hymns to squeeze them in.
Yet honestly, I can't see playing less than 4 Hymn ever in Pox, as you say, its one of the reasons to play the deck. Curving disruption (thoughtseize > Hymn to tourach > liliana) is why the deck is appealing, at least to me. Smallpox is the other huge reason to play the deck, and some people are still trying to squeeze in Sinkhole (I'm not sure why, it's just not very good in a Brainstorm-heavy metagame) so they end up cutting 1-2 Hymns. If your disruption curves, you have a significantly higher chance of winning games, at least in my experience.
Personally I play this discard suite: 3x Thoughtseize, 3x Cabal Therapy, 4x Hymn to Tourach. Therapy is a skill intensive card, but if you know your metagame/the format, it becomes very good, especially with Nether Spirit and Bloodghast.
Phyrexian totem should be seen as a threat, or as mana acceleration. The slots dedicated to those should be the first consideration for cutting, not disruption. Pox by its nature needs a critical mass of disruption to function as a control/prison deck. My suggestion is to cut some number of Dark Ritual for Pyrexian Totem, possibly a 2/2 split. Dark Ritual is amazing turn 1-3, and lousy late game. Totem is lousy t1-3, fantastic t3+.
Is dark ritual valuable? This is a question with variable answers. I follow an old rule of thumb and count each spell as 0,5 lands. This means cutting the four from the deck require adding two lands. Thus i would only free up two cards slots. Obviously that top decked ritual could equally likely been a land.
Otoh if I did replace them, and cut Something else, I might squeeze in four Inquisition of Kozilek. Then again I may find the Kozilek as bad a top deck as the rituals.
This, by the way, is why I like Hymn to Tourach. Even as top deck they are good. They pull the opponents lands from his hand and make him hurt by that the rack that is in play. Neither therapy, Thoughtseize, duress nor Inquisition can do that.
I have played with and without rituals, and am not sure they are worth it. However the deck get access to speed with these spells.
At least unless they get countered.
This make them less useful in the control meta in suppose.
Personally I lean more towards removal in the main. More often than not it feels relevant to me as my meta is fairly light on combo. Currently I am on 4 Inquisition, 3 Hymn and 4 Liliana of the Veil. Slowly testing out some fairly odd builds these days so I am not sure about the suite for them. I may find that having less than 6 targeted discard isn't where I want to be. I have been testing a Lost legacy in the main and the card is real good.
Few decks would be hamstrung by it. Could you elaborate?Quote:
Originally Posted by mykatdied
You make some good points about the 1cc discard and how it fits with Hymns, so i guess it really comes down to looking at the whole discard suite together.
My discard suite right now is 4 Inquisition, 1 Duress, 4 Hymn, 4 Smallpox, 2 Collective Brutality, 3 Lilliana. No thoughtseize as I don't own them, and haven't felt the loss to be too great. Could include Therapies I guess, though I'm not sure I've got enough knowledge to make the proper use of them.
I've been liking brutality a lot, all the modes are useful. Not a ton of combo in my meta so it's not so essential to disrupt from turn 1, and more useful to be able to kill resolved DRS or flipped delvers, while also having a chance at Duress. The extra life is helpful in a lot of circumstances where you want to get out of burn range or just buy an extra turn against an Angler.
As a side note on removal - I've gone to 2x Toxic Deluge in the main after realizing that there were so many games where my 1x was my only out. It's been an all-star, very rarely sorry to draw it, and there are some matchups like elves where it can just win the game.
Against storm I was able to take tendrils.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hardcore
Against mono red stompy I removed Chandra.
Against Czech Pile I took out Jace.
It doesn't "win" on its own, it does however remove the more difficult cards for us to fight against.
Brutality is about the only card I would consider cutting Hymns for, because it's essentially the same thing as a 2-for-1 (sometimes 3-for-1 if you can afford it.)Quote:
Originally Posted by aslidsiksoraksi
Regarding Cabal Therapy: the best way to become good with Therapy is to just play with it. The more familiar you get with the format, the better it gets. Blind naming is an art form, but one that rewards persistence. You could also play only 1-3 Therapy and use it as IoK #5-7, use Iok/Duress to make it a sure hit. Then you can sac a Bloodghast/Nether Spirit and really take them to the cleaners.
Cabal therapy makes you think about the opponents deck, what it does and likely cards in his (starting) hand.
I have an itch to get back into Pox, so this is what I'm sleaving up for some locals in the coming months:
4x Vampire Hexmage
2x bloodghast
3x Thoughtseize
3x Cabal Therapy
4x Hymn to Tourach
4x Smallpox
3x Liliana of the Veil
3x Abrupt Decay
2x Sylvan Library
1x Life from the Loam
4x Crop Rotation
1x Garruk Relentless
4x Verdant Catacombs
2x Misty Rainforest
1x Bayou
1x Overgrown Tomb
1x Woodland Cemetery
3x Swamp
1x Forest
1x Bojuka Bog
3x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1x Treetop Village
1x Cabal Pit
4x Wasteland
1x Maze of Ith
1x Dark Depths
1x Thespian’s Stage
Sideboard
1x Karakas
1x Glacial Chasm
1x Maelstrom Pulse
2x Surgical Extraction
2x Choke
2x Golgari Charm
1x Toxic Deluge
1x Pernicious Deed
2x Lost Legacy
2x open
Not sure what the open slots will become. Darkblast, additional copies of Pulse, and Pithing Needle are on my short list. Needle I think is less needed for Jaces when I have 4x maindeck hate cards for PW's (Hexmage), but Needle does a lot against a lot of other threats as well. I really like the Crop Rotation tutor package, not only for getting a Marit Lage token but also for having maindeck instant speed grave hate (storm, reanimator, Snapcaster Mage) and also some great answers to a lot of threats (Cabal Pit, Maze of Ith.) If somehow my opponent's deal with Dark Depths I can just grab a Treetop Village. I'd rather play a Mishra's Factory, but I have a lot of colorless lands already in a 2-color deck. I really like the Bloodghast alternate win condition, because it synergizes with Cabal Therapy so well. It's classic pox tech and I have the room to squeeze it in. I also think an Entomb package would be great, to get the singleton Loam, maybe a Raven's Crime.
Any thoughts on what to do for the 2 open slots? Am I missing anything?
You miss the cycling - draw card land.
Second thought is to check how well it handles hate. You have only one Marit after all.
Barren Moor/Tranquil Thicket are pretty risky with only 1 copy of Loam. If I had the Entombs to ensure Loam/Raven's Crime it would be excellent as a grinding card draw engine, but I just can't fit the Entombs in with the Crop Rotations. The single loam is more akin to the single Crucible that mono-black lists use. The deck can function just fine (26 lands) without Loam, but it allows for some re-buying of Depths/Wasteland/Cabal Pit/etc. I really like the Sylvan Library's for deck filtering, and I would be playing those *anyways*.
What hate are you referring to? I'm not really a loam deck, so grave hate doesn't really hurt that much. Pithing needles/Ensnaring Bridges are dealt with by maindeck Abrupt Decays/sideboarded Deed/Pulse. Chalice/Jace/Pw's are dealt with by maindeck Hexmages. Seventeen discard spells (therapy/sieze/hymn/smallpox/liliana) all rip hands apart. Bloodghast/Hexmage/Treetop/Garruk tokens beatdown are the alternate wincondition. Honestly, the only thing I feel weak against is something like Burn or Storm. Burn I really go for Depths foremost, so I can race. Storm seems like it could be even/favored with discard and Crop Rotation > Bojuka Bog. Empty the Warrens can be dealt with by sideboarded Deluge/Golgari Charms. Death and Taxes could be a tough matchup, and maybe Engineered Plague needs to be the the 2 open slots. I might even try to squeeze in 3 copies, its such a good card.
EDIT: I could easily see Dark Confidant in the sideboard as well, the curve is super low.
With the 4 hex mage I would add more dark depths. That way t2 urborg dark depths cast hex mage will steal a bunch of games. What do you feel about sinkhole right now? It's not in my current build and I'm on the fence about adding 2 or 3. Also why lost legacy? Imo it's decent with dark ritual, naming something like infernal tutor, but you're not accelerating. Also another note I'm in the mox diamond yes club lol. Garruk would probably be my first cut.
I think relying on a max-out Depths approach is putting it too close to Turbo-Depths. Turbo Depths is much better at consistently, and quickly, getting a 20/20 and winning, through disruption. My approach is the other way around: disrupt FIRST, then make a quick Depths to win (pox sometimes has trouble finishing games in time before opponent's draw out of the lock.) I also have a total of 10 combo pieces already (4 hexmage, 4 Rotation, 1 depths, 1 stage.) That's about as much as I want to commit to the combo.
Mox Diamond would be excellent, even 1-2 of them. I could shave off a Library or Decay for a Diamond or 2. Sounds really good actually.
Lost Legacy was filler...the deck can have a hard time against some decks (Dredge namely) and I don't have the Leyline of the Void's to adequately hate that out. I could instead play Nihil Spellbomb, but Lost Legacy has fringe benefits against other decks (Reanimator, Sneak/Show.) I could be convinced to put something else in. I was just brainstorming replacements for Pithing Needle because I don't feel I need them (or need them as much.)
I will likely do this:
2x Choke
3x Engineered Plague
2x Surgical Extraction
1x Pernicious Deed
1x Maelstrom Pulse
2x Golgari Charm
1x Lost Legacy
1x Glacial Chasm
1x Karakas
1x Toxic Deluge
Deluge may not be necessary, and maybe that's the place to put Garruk Relentless (freeing up a slot for Diamond, as you mentioned.)
Sinkhole has been discussed in the thread several times recently, and most folks are dropping them. It just doesn't do enough. Cutting Wasteland and Smallpox are not options, and Hymn is valuable against everything whereas Sinkhole is only good against some decks. I think the prevalence of Brainstorm makes Sinkhole much worse, folks just draw into more lands. I can't fit them in with Hexmage anyways, lol.
Understandable. What are your and the forums current thoughts on collective brutality? A few pages back it was all the hype. I have one in my side flex spot, and they are pretty good, but a little susceptible to soft counters. My meta is diverse af for what it's worth lol.
Also, regarding your sb.. what's chasm for? It's great against decks packing price of progress but isn't it a little harder to get a thespian's stage lock going with only 1 copy and 1 loam?
Chasm is only for Burn, but I can see how it would be bad (cannot attack!) Good catch. I could always waste my own Chasm the turn I attack FTW, but that might be a window for PoP or Bolts to finish me off. I think an alternative burn plan should be considered, or maybe just accept the matchup as bad (especially considering I don't see it very often at all.) Another Lost Legacy/Deed/Pulse or maybe a Pithing Needle will take it's spot.
Brutality is really good, I just can't find room. I could see cutting the same cards I mentioned for Mox Diamond for Brutality instead, but I'm not sure I need them. Brutality is an all-star against Burn for sure, or anything else that's aggressive (Delver.)
EDIT: Just checked price on Mox Diamond...$170/each. Probably not adding those, as I don't have them. Might go Batterskull like someone else did recently, seems very good.
Burn have no hate against marit lage, and must rely on speed to win.
Crop rotate and swing for the win.