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I hope neither.Quote:
Originally Posted by caprino
I think I'm a little too cynical to nab a set of SDT's in the hope that they unban it and ban CB; I just don't see it happening. I would love it, but I don't see it happening. I don't think they'll ban DRS either, and we all know they won't ban Brainstorm. Survival seems a bit of a stretch as well.
I hope no changes, other than maybe Earthcraft/Mind Twist/Frantic Search unban.
I don't think DRS will get banned next patch, still, the amount of hate DRS is getting is super high.
And while top got even more hate in the years, it also had a good share of the playerbase defending it, I see very few people defending DRS now, maybe because DRS is not deck defining, its just a new 4x that has to be played in the goodstuff shell
The reason to enjoy Legacy, in my opinion, is the absurdly large card pool. And I don't mean getting to play a large variety of decks, but rather, the unknown number of one-step-from-busted cards that just need one innocuous card printed to produce a synergy worthy of a new deck. The fact that Lion's Eye Diamond (1996) had to wait until Infernal Tutor (2006) to become an all-star card. Food Chain (1999) had to wait until Misthollow Griffin (2012) before it had an infinite combo, and then wait until Walking Ballista (2017) before it could win without combat. How many years was Show and Tell a dollar rare before it became valuable? Didgerioo's day is coming, and who knows what other laughably bad cards will turn out to be hot next year?
And this isn't just limited to Legacy, though the window of power is usually too high for recent cards to be included, but I consider Lodestone Golem (2010) and Hangerback Walker (2015) to be rather recent cards to what should be a 25 year old format. Modern too has it's examples of curious synergies impossible to predict coming together to produce a neat deck. Lantern of Insight is a great example. Even in standard the nonsense around Saheeli Rai and Felidar Guardian shows that their microscopic card pool isn't immune from unintended synergy.
Legacy sits in that perfect spot, where some pushed Wizard from Dominaria could have made Wizard Tribal a thing. Who knows what the next set could reveal?
The next set could reveal that whatever comes out, the best thing to do with whatever card comes out is play it next to Brainstorm, Ponder, and Force of Will
Well I mean, sure, okay.Quote:
Originally Posted by Megadeus
Except the format frequently gets new archetypes, or at the very least, scarcely played decks that are still good become more popular because some pro does well with it. Then over time, people coalesce around what they perceive to be as the best decks, and the lesser played decks go back to the fringes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Megadeus
Examples include Turbo Depths, Br Reanimator, Noble Hierarch BUG (which increased the popularity of Bant Deathblade for a time), and Czech Pile. All of these are relatively new archetypes within the last couple of years. If we go back even further, there are even more examples.
The point is, new archetypes pop up all the time. I would hardly consider Legacy "solved." Some decks fall off the map, like Shardless BUG, and new ones pop up too. This happens all the time, and not all of them are blue (like Turbo Depths and Br Reanimator).
I agree that it makes sense to splash blue for Brainstorm and Ponder in most decks, because increased consistency of drawing what you need when you need it is a winning strategy, especially at large events. But that doesn't mean you can't brew new competitive decks in Legacy, or that all new competitive brews require blue.
EDIT: Big Eldrazi is another one that comes to mind. Relatively new (within the last year), most certainly competitive, and isn't blue.
EDIT2: Looking through N&D revealed Steel Stompy as well. Also, although this is a bit of a shameless plug, but I did well last October with my Esper Mentor brew, and I did well last year at GP Louisville with my Sligh brew. I realize both of them run blue, but I like casting Brainstorm so whatever.
Your mentor deck (which I really liked btw) was basically just proof of how busted DRS and Cantrips can be together. I think it was 18 lands trying to cast mentor and Jace. It was incredibly greedy. And Steel and Eldrazi decks are just traditional stompy shells that basically gained better threats. They aren't exactly new archetypesQuote:
Originally Posted by Hanni
Big Eldrazi isn't a Stompy deck. It's the evolution of 12-Post MUD decks.Quote:
Originally Posted by Megadeus
Most new archetypes are evolutions of older ideas with new cards. There are only so many unique strategical concepts that can occur in Magic: the Gathering, regardless of whatever new cards Wizards decides to print.
Unless we get something as monumental as dredge, I don't see how we'll come across a new archetype if we're saying evolution of Stompy or whatever don't count.
D.n.T
If you take Deathblade 2013 and remove its 4 SFM, 1 Batterskull, 1 Jitte and 4 Plows for 4 Pyromancer, 2 Angler and 4 Lightning Bolts you pretty much end up with the default Grixis 2018.
If you take the old Shardless decks which ran Agent+Visions+Goyf and replace these with Leovold+Command+Snapcaster, you end up with 4c Control 2018.
These are no new archetypes, not even real evolutions, as mainly the creatures were swapped as a natural result of powercreep, while the rest of the deck is essentially the same for years
I agree with much of what's been said lately by users much more adept than I at Magic, but let's not forget that 4x Brainstorm or 4x Chalice don't make a deck, either. Not pointing fingers, but I feel like that's where this discussion often goes.
And if people complain that Chalice decks aren't consistent enough, why don't they run more Serum Powders?
I'm not sure where this comes from at all. Eldrazi Stompy has been DTB for 5 or 6 months straight.Quote:
Originally Posted by Megadeus
It would run more consistently, but also worse.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronald Deuce
Consistency is not the be all and end all. What matters is your odds/frequency of winning matches (varies from MU to MU). A consistent deck doesn't win more often - it just loses for different reasons.
Woha. I disagree with pretty much everything you said.
This is flat out false. Eldrazi stompy thread's has not been a constant presence in the DTB section over the last 6 months. It has gone in and out, like many other decks.Quote:
Originally Posted by Crimhead
Not only that. The DTB section of this forum is not -with full respect to the staff- an objective representation of what the legacy metagame looks like. It's just an opinion based on statistics.
If you use a different webstite to get your stats, then your opinion changes.
Theory and practice are the same thing in theory, but not in practice.Quote:
Originally Posted by Crimhead
1. Your statement would be true if we were to play with random-nonsensical-weird cards. I think what invalidates your opinion is the fact that legacy decks play some of the best cards ever printed, and they want to see those cards. Try to pay attention to the fact that even non-blue decks are designed to maximize the odds of seeing a certain card, like, squared-out lists or searching toolboxes.
2. Legacy metagame has always been dominated by the most consistant decks. Eldrazi Stompy was tier1 for just about as much time as it was needed to realize there was a viable blue answer. The fact that I can come up with t2 Strix twice as likely as you being able to t2 TKS does matter.
Hi all,
I'm no legacy expert, but I try to play when I can, and have most of the decks built, so I have a passing familiarity with just about everything. I think this B&R update will pass without incident, to be honest, or they might ban deathrite. If they decide to ban, it may be better for the format as a whole now, but it sets a bad precedent for the future. I do not want legacy to be the format where wotc just bans the best card each year. I think most long time legacy aficionados probably agree with that; the neglect is the format's biggest strength. If this were modern, we'd have lost brainstorm from the jump.
My idea would sound mostly crazy, but maybe crazy enough to work. There was a previous post, and I apologize for not giving proper credit, that separated banned cards into always broken, and can be broken but require some sort of synergy and cost. I would propose that instead of banning deathrite, they just unban the contextually powerful cards. Before top was banned, miracles kept deathrite shaman in check. Before that dig, treasure cruise, and survival were banned. Each led to oppressive metagames (especially cruise), but maybe if they were all available (except cruise) they'd balance each other out.
Here's what I'd propose:
Ban:
Nothing
Unban:
Sensei's Divining Top: It's painful, but it's a cool interaction with counterbalance that has been around for ages without breaking anything. It also enables some lower tier decks that otherwise wouldn't exist. It could also help keep deathrite in check. I think the biggest impediment is it would require wotc to eat a little crow, and rework their legacy b&r philosophy.
Survival of the Fittest: It's a great engine, but it costs a ton of mana, and doesn't immediately win the game. There is way more pressure on the graveyard than there was during the banning. It could be broken still, but it's worth a shot.
Mind Twist: Great card, probably won't even see play. Chaining rituals can do more powerful things.
Frantic Search: This unban still won't make high tide as good as storm or s&t.
Goblin Recruiter: Kind of annoying the play against, but not overpowered. I think if we can have top, we can have this.
Earthcraft: Another combo piece that would probably be weaker than available pieces.
Maybe Unban:
Dig through Time: This will give combo a shot in the arm, but with everyone else getting richer, it may even be necessary.
Mana Drain: Will either hardly get played, or spawn a new play pattern. I doubt it would break everything. It can even be reprinted.
Mystical Tutor: We'll just have to go back to the gentleman's agreement... Helps other combo decks (mostly reanimator), they could probably use a slight assist.
Yawgmoth's Bargain: Griselwho? Seriously, it might give storm too much of a boost.
Longshot Unbans:
Balance: This is the most controversial pick. I would say it skirts the edge of good on its own. It's super versatile, but it works best in a deck with fairly high constraints. I think it would spawn a new type of white/x chalice/stax deck. The more I think about it, the more brutal it seems. It could lead to a lot of light's out turn ones, but to do it consistently it would need to be built kind of like belcher, which literally kills on turn one and is not a powerhouse.
Gush: Has minor deck building considerations. This will probably soup up tempo and deathrite decks too much.
Tinker: Is this better than show and tell? It has less deck building requirements, but the payoffs are not as good. I have a hunch that wotc is getting more cautious with its 'pay a bunch of mana and win' type of cards, so there should be a give and take between this and show and tell. It will definitely spawn an archetype for brewers.
The chances of this happening is not likely, and it just might completely break the format. A positive is that even if a deck proves too oppressive, it will probably take a long time to 'solve' the metagame.
Imagine this landscape:
Tempo/Delver decks
4c Control
Miracles
Lands
Depths combo
Reanimator
Survival based tempo and combo
Show and Tell based combo
Storm
Death and Taxes
Eldrazi
12 post
Prison/Stax
Painter
Merfolk
Earthcraft/enchantress
Goblins??
High Tide??
Mana drain based control??
Tinker combo??
It's totally a theory, but having a few new viable, maybe even powerful, archetypes sounds good. I'm sure there are plenty that I didn't even think about, and yet more that are unknown unknowns. The known archetypes get a little richer, and compete better relative to deathrite decks. We all have our biases and boogiemen, but I think there could be a good shot that all the insanity may just balance out. What do you think would happen in this environment? Too crazy to work, or so crazy it might just work?
Edit: added more decks
Yes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Backseat_Critic
Do you want to actually do a little research next time?Quote:
Originally Posted by Cave
Eldrazi made DTB in October, and has been there ever since. That's 5 straight months (I said 5 or 6).
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...election/page6
Did I say otherwise?Quote:
Originally Posted by Cave
I was disputing the statement that Stompy "rarely puts up numbers". DTB is not the be all and end all, but you don't sit there for 5 straight months without "putting up numbers". That's a fact.
Given the degree of thought and knowledge you've put into your post, I will not be giving a free lesson in math this morning. Maybe another time. TBH, I can't shake the feeling that you are trolling me with your " alternative" facts.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cave
But as far as I know, the most consistent deck in Legacy (Burn) has never dominated the format.
Oh, I don't mind people expressing an opinion.Quote:
Originally Posted by kombatkiwi
If you say things like:That's fine. You are object stating your opinion; as an opinion.
- I want to see a diverse range of play-styles
- I want better colour balance
- I want a minimal banned list
- I want more viable cores in multi-colour fair decks
But saying things like:
Is utterly useless.
- This card does not create interesting board states
- This card makes Legacy worse
You suggest reverting the format back to Miracles vs Deathrite+Decay once again which has shown for 4 years that it's toxic? Miracles has put 2 people into a GP Top8 recently afaik, so how do you justify that it needs a boost?Quote:
Originally Posted by Backseat_Critic
What exactly do you mean by "true combo decks"? What makes deck like Scapeshift or Storm in Modern not "true" combo decks?Quote:
Originally Posted by Crimhead
Modern doesn't really have a Tier 1 prison deck, true. Some have argued that Lantern Control is actually a much better deck than its Tier 2 status would indicate (after all, "tiers" aren't really measures of strength, but of results, which is a combination of strength and popularity), though. Still, counting it as Tier 2, stop and consider what the Tier 1 prison deck in Legacy is: Death & Taxes. I won't argue it's not technically a prison deck, but it's hardly what comes to mind when someone says "prison deck." In terms of more classic ideas of a prison deck, I feel like Lantern Control is higher tier than any "classic" prison deck in Legacy. Also, while 8Rack is fairly fringe, Ponza's actually become pretty good lately thanks to Bloodbraid Elf.Quote:
Also, does Modern have a tier-1 prison deck? I understand Lantern Control is a tier-2 deck, and Rack and Ponza are worse.
And if we want to pull the "where is the Tier 1 <insert archetype here>?" question, then where is the Tier 1 aggro deck in Legacy?
"Weird" is far too vague of a term for me to respond properly. But if we're just talking combo, then yeah, there's Scapeshift, Storm, Krark-Clan Ironworks. If we want to talk about something that's not really combo but is just weird in a more general sense, there's Lantern Control and Hollow One.Quote:
For me, format diversity can't really exist without decks that approach the game from a completely different angle. In Legacy, ANT, Lands, and RB Reanimator are perfect examples. Does Modern have decks that are that "weird"? Honestly curious.