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You know, I've also been considering Torpor Orb (I play the same creature package)!Quote:
Originally Posted by nitewolf9
I also thought it was too narrow along with Cursed Totem (I was considering it for Maverick decks).
In the end, I figured Extirpate was just fine against Snapcaster and pretty much hoses their future usefulness as well most of the time.
You are explaining me in this Post how Team America works. That is not necessary as I used to play it. I also do not ponder on how cool it is to snap back a hymn on turn 4, since it would not add alot to the discussion. However, nothing in your post shows where TA has an advantage over BUG control. Still failing to explain which part of the meta TA has an edge and why.Quote:
Originally Posted by wcm8
I want to comment on the following statements.
Manaflood is horrible for TA and tempo decks. UW, BUG and other control decks like to draw and play lands, because they want to use 4-8 mana over 1-2 turns to do unfair things.Quote:
Originally Posted by wcm8
Sure... but that is the reason why you cannot play deed and jace appropriately which makes TA worse than BUG control in many matchups. Thanks for supporting this point finally. :wink:Quote:
Originally Posted by wcm8
On what Planet does TA beat Maverick? This is a horror matchup!!Quote:
Originally Posted by wcm8
Your statements are so polarised using words like "laughably easy" and "very hard time EVER beating" which shows that you do not have a professional and realistic mindset but more a selective memory and a way to evaluate matchups like a child.Quote:
Originally Posted by wcm8
But your rhetoric issues aside. Pox attacks greedy manabases & resources. Which deck do you think has a bigger chance? The one running more lands and card advantage or the one which tries to win fast with a greedy manabase? Since the SCG finish I beat Pox 4 times with BUG control (2:1, 2:1, 2:0, 2:0).
This just shows why you dropped 0:2 regularly playing a control deck. You seem not to understand how it works. JACE IS THE WAY TO GET AN ADVANTAGE IN THE LONG GAME. After trading off with aggressive decks and nobody has cards or permanents you have Jace. I can imagine you would side out jace in TA (and therefore have him in the board). In control decks he is rarely sided out and surely not against any of the decks you mentioned!Quote:
Originally Posted by wcm8
I did not argue that TA is the 'inferior control build' (only post board versus creature based matchup... but this point is so obvious that it is not worth discussing)...Quote:
Originally Posted by wcm8
I argued that BUG control is the overall best deck in the BUG colors!
Now the point that BUG is an inferior control build than UW Stoneforge is a good one which needs to be adressed, but as you said should not be discussed here. Just one point, because I think you have a misconception about discard. You are right that BUG control has obviously a better combo matchup and that SFM has better late game value than Goyf. However, because of continous discard (Snapcaster) the opposing control deck has a hard time playing "draw go". Discard is not only powerful if you have an agressive game state to end the game quickly, but also if it supports the gameplan of grinding your opponent out by providing card advantage and stopping your opponent from implementing his gameplan.
The argument that topdecking discard is bad if you are behind is true. But in the context of comparing BUG control with UW it is not valid. You have the same problem with UW if you behind on board and topdeck one of the many counterspells. Also the the matchup BUG versus UW the late game discard has value since UW draws a lot of cards which are reactive and not played out.
I do care about the differentiation of BUG and TA, which is not done unfortunately.Quote:
Originally Posted by wcm8
At the moment probably neither of both decks belong to the DTB section but if you check which builds enabled this rating for the TA thread you will see that since snapcaster the release 65% or more was BUG control and not TA.
By the way in december: BUG control 5 top finishes, BUG/TA hybrid has 1, Team america has 0.
check it out: http://thecouncil.es/tcdecks/tipo.ph...&format=Legacy
The real reason I post is because I want to attract smart TA players to try it out and make the archetype BUG control better overall.
A well argued case. I will definitely be testing both BUG control and TA for the GP in march.
I have to say I agree with catmind regarding the decks showing results for the past months is actually BUG control of some sort rather than Team America.
Team America as we know it (about 20 lands, Tombstalkers, Stifle/Daze/Wasteland) ceased to exist on a meaningful level since the banning of Mental Misstep and printing of Snapcaster Mage. Since then its more like 24 lands, Snapcasters utilizing flashed back removal and discard with Jace and Tarmogoyf as the win conditions.
I think people tend to associate the BUG decks with Hymns and Tarmogoyfs with the name Team America because it has a cooler name and have a reputation of being a strong archetype. We don't refer to RUG as Canadian Threshold anymore even though it's playstyle is much closer to it than Team America's playstyle to what it is today.
I don't agree that it "ceased to exist" or that BUG control is necessarily better just because it's put up better results in the past few months. I believe the sample size is pretty small, and ultimately people want to try new things, so these results could just be from very few people playing TA anymore, not from it being bad. Players have often pointed out the difference between European and American metagames, this difference in results could be a product of something like that.
I also agree with Catmint. Traditional TA builds excel in metagames that thrive on Combo. The metagame is not looking like that at all recently, thanks in part to the resurgence of blue tempo decks. RUG generally has a leg-up on the matchup against TA thanks to the removal spells also having reach.
It seems to me that this archetype (BUG/TA) has a difficult time dealing with SFM and other mid/late-game cards. I agree that Jace is beneficial to help sustain the deck outside from the "easy" victories where you can just blow the opponent out with Hymn, Stifle, Wasteland, and a quick Goyf/Delver.
I always felt TA was favored in the Canadian Thresh matchup due to a resolved Goyf / Tombstalker being so difficult for them to answer.
However, I do think the overall strength of Tombstalker has been greatly reduced due to GFTT, Dismember, and StP so a more controlling build is probably better overall these days.
I want to start playing aggro bant since My merfolk deck and rock deck keeps getting spanked in tournaments.
any criticisms on my deck
lands
1 forest
1 island
1 karakas
1 maze of ith
4 misty rainforests
1 savannah
4 tropical islands
2 tundra
3 wastelands
3 windswept heaths
creatures
1 dryad arbor
4 knights of the reliquary
1 edric
2 geist of saint traft
4 noble heirarchs
2 scavenging ooze
2 quasali pridemage
2 tarmogoyf
instants
4 swords to plowshares
4 brainstorms
4 force of wills
3 daze
enchantments
1 sylvan library
sorcery
3 green sun zenith
planeswalkers
2 jace TMS
sideboard
1 tormods crypt
3 surgical extractions
3 path to exiles
3 spell pierces
1 flusterstorm
2 meddling mage
1 quasali pridemage
1 bojuka bog
Wrong thread? :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Avatar of Shadow
you are right.Quote:
Originally Posted by Esper3k
An approach I've been testing is upping the threat density...
20 lands
4 FoW
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Daze
3 Stifle
3 Hymn to Tourach
2 Thoughtseize
2 Dismember (might just be better as 4 snuff out)
2 Snuff Out
4 Goyf
4 Delver
3 Tombstalker
2 V. Clique (has been great in testing lately and usually better than Snapcaster..)
Skeptical about cutting out a Hymn. They've been really good from the playtesting. Snuff out has been really good and I think it works very well in the tempo TA version.Quote:
Originally Posted by wcm8
I've really liked Clique too but I'm not so sure it belongs in the tempo version of TA. Maybe as a 1 of?
What are your thoughts on IoK instead of Thoughtseize?
I've been thinking of cutting out a ponder. It just feels too repetitive at times with the 4 BS and Ponders.
Have anyone tried using Massacre in their SB against Maverick or Bant Aggro? I would imagine it would be pretty sick to wipe out their mana-dorks/mother of runes/dryad arbor and slow down their early development.
Quote:
Originally Posted by NathanS2k
Yes, this card is pretty ridiculous if you draw it early enough. Doesn't help much against a Knight of the Reliquary though. It's sometimes nicer than Perish because your Goyfs will survive. I'm currently running 1 Massacre and 1 Perish in my SB to help with these matchups (which really aren't too bad unless they get an early choke in the case of Maverick). Darkblast has similarly utility in killing mana dorks, but with Maverick being a DTB I think Massacre warrants 1 or 2 slots. It's also pretty good vs UW Stoneblade.
Yeah, early choke is pretty much GG. That's why I want to utilize as many "free" spells as possible with almost zero drawback. Couldn't find a better card than Massacre against Maverick/Bant aggro.
Hello all,
I recently came back to legacy after a 5-6 month hiatus and went straight back to playing TA in a local tournament. Here's a link to the tournament report I posted a few minutes ago:
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...152#post612152
The one match I lost was against R/U/G aggro-control with Bloodbraid Elf and the usual Jace, Clique, Goyf type of package. I was wondering if anyone here has any particular strategies they use against this type of deck. Particularly I'm wondering if you think it's worth focusing your Stifle's on mana denial or saving them for Jace/Clique/Elf instead.
Additionally, what removal would you board in for this matchup and what would your overall removal package look like post-board?
I've been seeing some fair reason to include Hydroblast in the SB again. The UR Delver deck seems very popular, and you will have a very tough time beating them in g2 and 3 without some sort of way to answer a timely Price of Progress. Of course, it also deals with Goblins which always sees some fringe play in big tournaments.
As for Bloodbraid Elf, that is a tough one. Ideally you can keep them low on mana, so I would try to use Stifle to cut off their mana. Darkblast, Massacre, and Perish can also help clear their board of mana dorks to help prevent them from ramping into Jace or BBE.
However, I've actually been experimenting with cutting Stifle entirely from my list to some good results -- Spell Pierce and Thoughtseize are very good even without Stifle in a deck. I will hold off from posting my list until the entirety of Dark Ascension is revealed, because I'm predicting that there may be some new significant toys for us to play with. Failing that, we can at least expect some other decks to get new cards which may lead to a metagame shift.
I actually just cut BEB/Hydroblast after running them for almost a year : - P It's actually a meta call as there was almost no combo or Gobbo's in my meta but I used to love boarding that in against Burn/Gobbo's/Belcher.Quote:
Originally Posted by wcm8
I'll have to experiment with Massacre and maybe try Darkblast again (I cut it after a horrific showing against Merfolk at a 100-man event last year) as I like how DB hits Hierarch and Clique while fueling Tstalker.
I cannot in good conscience cut Stifle as it's been my darling card for the past few years in that deck and has won me so many games I lost count a long time ago. I am curious as to what your list looks like without it though. I'm thinking of experimenting with a 2/2 split of Spell Pierce and Thoughtseize to see which I like better (or if a split is best) however Pierce has been pretty stellar in most of my matchups.
Thanks for taking time to respond!
Yeah I've tried darkblast against merfolk and it really isn't the card you want in that matchup. If you're using it to kill a silvergill adept, the damage has already been done. In fact, if there's any one card you want to keep them from resolving, it's adept. That matchup is hard any way you slice it.
I'm debating about cutting Grips to run more removal in the form of Deed and Consuming Vapor but I'm also thinking I might up Ghastly to 4 as it's been a house in every aggro match I've ever used it in. I've taken out KOTR at 11 with them before and I also don't see enough mono-black or Tstalker/Confidant based decks to warrant concern for the non-black part.