[DTB] Blade Control

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

Guys, can we please stop mindlessly quoting walls of text? Either cut out sentences you're refering to or highlight passages with bolded text. It's a torture to read through 3000 words just to find the 2 sentences you actually wanted to quote

It's the second time today in this thread and it really harms the discussion flow

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really? the text I quoted is pretty far from being an epic long quote to begin with... responding to the quoted comment as a whole, lost a page back, I don't know, but the quote seemed to be reasonable, IFAIK.


@AEnesidem

I wanted to add that I actually got the opportunity to test out esper today, and that I feel more and more in the wrong, conserning my overall position on esper. I changed my play in order to be more proactive in general, exploting the early hand knowledge I could have to my benefit, and I actually ended up not hating any of my deck parts. I ended up using a list similar to Vidi's last SCG top 16 list, with a sideboard inspired by Mackan's videos (using cliques and meddling mages, among others). So yeah, just wanted to give my little update here.

Sideboard.

Legacy event this weekend, this is the sideboard I intend to bring. Feedback is welcome.

4 surgical extraction
3 geist of Saint traft
2 spell pierce (2 main deck) (could be flusterstorm or divert)
1 disenchant
1 sword of feast and famine
1 supreme verdict (1 in the main)
1 pithing needle
1 inquisition (2 thought seize, 2 inquisition main deck)
1 force of will (3 main deck)


Edit: Vidi main deck

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Originally Posted by Unsummon

Sideboard.

Legacy event this weekend, this is the sideboard I intend to bring. Feedback is welcome.

4 surgical extraction
3 geist of Saint traft
2 spell pierce (2 main deck) (could be flusterstorm or divert)
1 disenchant
1 sword of feast and famine
1 supreme verdict (1 in the main)
1 pithing needle
1 inquisition (2 thought seize, 2 inquisition main deck)
1 force of will (3 main deck)


Edit: Vidi main deck

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I would consider exchanging one of the surgicals for another type of grave hate, just for diversity. I like Nihil Spellbomb if you're playing Academy Ruins because then it's recurrable; otherwise Relic is a good choice as it's useful on the field to keep an opponent from reaching threshold, and can zero out goyfs when necessary.

Instead of Inquisition, you might try a Cabal Therapy, which can work well with matchups like combo where a single 1/1, 2/1, or 1/2 may be very expendable.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Unsummon

Sideboard.

Legacy event this weekend, this is the sideboard I intend to bring. Feedback is welcome.

4 surgical extraction
3 geist of Saint traft
2 spell pierce (2 main deck) (could be flusterstorm or divert)
1 disenchant
1 sword of feast and famine
1 supreme verdict (1 in the main)
1 pithing needle
1 inquisition (2 thought seize, 2 inquisition main deck)
1 force of will (3 main deck)


Edit: Vidi main deck

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- Spell Pierce is fine, but I have rarely wanted more than 2. I would recommend Flusterstorm in its place. It is much better against Storm/Belcher. Even though it misses enchantments it is still generally stronger against Reanimator and Show and Tell as well. I even bring it in against RUG sometimes.

- There is a severe lack of creature hate in your board. Depending on the expected meta, some mixture of EE, Perish, Zealous Persecution, and/or Humility would be good.

- 4 Surgical Extraction is too many. Cut one and replace another with Nihil Spellbomb/Relic/RiP. There are some successful Esper builds that run a trio of Rest in Peace, but I am not a huge fan of this.

- Geist seems to be a prominent feature in many sideboards but he eats up a lot of slots. Unless you expect a good deal of Miracles/mirror, I don't know if he is worth the slots. That could turn into more discard, another Vendilion Clique, and some additional creature hate.

Some enterprising players are jamming Punishing Fire to attack the metagame. Your 75 dies to this card. -2 Surgical Extraction, +2 Rest in Peace. No, Extirpate/Crypt/Relic/Nihil do not help.

@ boarding vs Goblins:

OtD:
+ 1 Force, +1 Darkblast, +1 Persecution, -1 Clique, -2 Spell Pierce

OtP:
+1 Inquisition, +1 Darkblast, +1 Persecution, - 1 Clique, -1 Force, -1 Spell Pierce

What do you guys mean (using Vidi's list)?

Concerning the Sideboard:
I really want to incoporate Rest in Piece in the board as Relic and Extraction are rarely enough against a skilled Dredge/Loam pilot. While I like the broader applications of Relic/Extraction I dislike their shakyness and love a permanent ("I win button") against a lot of decks.
Generally speaking would you rather see RiP as hindering us and unfunctional, or a "bomb" worth playing?

I'm asking this because I'm not sure how to see this deck: More as a cooperation of cards that get strong in their perfect combination/sequence (like Canadian) or a deck that can bring game-winning, but more situtional, bombs (like Miracles)?? :smile:

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Originally Posted by zerzab11

What do you guys mean (using Vidi's list)?

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http://tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=9908&iddeck=72237

This is the winning list from GP Denver that essentially become the de facto standard for Esperblade maindecks.

I think I made my point a little unclear. Of course I know the stock list and piloted it to a first and second place finish in the last month since I started playing Esper! :smile:

My question was concerning the boarding plans vs Goblins, the RiP as sideboard slot question and the most interesting imo how you guys see this deck.

Would be happy about some insight.

Cheers

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Originally Posted by zerzab11

@ boarding vs Goblins:

OtD:
+ 1 Force, +1 Darkblast, +1 Persecution, -1 Clique, -2 Spell Pierce

OtP:
+1 Inquisition, +1 Darkblast, +1 Persecution, - 1 Clique, -1 Force, -1 Spell Pierce

What do you guys mean (using Vidi's list)?

Concerning the Sideboard:
I really want to incoporate Rest in Piece in the board as Relic and Extraction are rarely enough against a skilled Dredge/Loam pilot. While I like the broader applications of Relic/Extraction I dislike their shakyness and love a permanent ("I win button") against a lot of decks.
Generally speaking would you rather see RiP as hindering us and unfunctional, or a "bomb" worth playing?

I'm asking this because I'm not sure how to see this deck: More as a cooperation of cards that get strong in their perfect combination/sequence (like Canadian) or a deck that can bring game-winning, but more situtional, bombs (like Miracles)?? :smile:

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I play rest in peace and it's awesome. I played it against tin fins yesterday and he scooped. it beats the decks it's good against much more often, for me, than it beats you. i usually pull out a snapcaster when i bring it in, though.

Ok, thank you ;) Care to share your current list?

Recently I've been thinking about going back to straight UW to be able to play Visions. With so much of the format moving towards BGx midrange decks, it seems like a great way to fight them, mitigating Hymn and Liliana damage, and not getting Thoughtseized if you're on the play. Obviously it's not so great against combo, but sometimes the extra counterspells in place of hand disruption can buy time to resolve a game one Vision. I'm just not sure if this is better than the Miracle control decks with Mystics over the enchantment suite. Right now I'm looking at a list like this for the DC Open next weekend, but Esper is a solid fallback if this experiment doesn't work out too well:

4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
2 Marsh Flats
3 Tundra
3 Island
2 Plains
1 Riptide Laboratory
1 Karakas
1 Mystic Gate
1 Mishra's Factory

(22)

4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Snapcaster Mage
2 Vendilion Clique

(10)

3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant

(4)

4 Force of Will
2 Spell Pierce
2 Spell Snare
1 Counterspell

(9)

4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Dismember

(5)

4 Brainstorm
4 Ancestral Visions

(8)

1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte

(2)
(60)

SB

3 Geist of Saint Traft
1 Rest in Peace
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Flusterstorm
2 Divert
1 Venser, Shaper Savant
1 Path to Exile
2 Supreme Verdict
1 Sword of Feast and Famine

(15)

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Originally Posted by James Dean

Recently I've been thinking about going back to straight UW to be able to play Visions. With so much of the format moving towards BGx midrange decks, it seems like a great way to fight them, mitigating Hymn and Liliana damage, and not getting Thoughtseized if you're on the play. Obviously it's not so great against combo, but sometimes the extra counterspells in place of hand disruption can buy time to resolve a game one Vision. I'm just not sure if this is better than the Miracle control decks with Mystics over the enchantment suite. Right now I'm looking at a list like this for the DC Open next weekend, but Esper is a solid fallback if this experiment doesn't work out too well:

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Here is the problem with that logic: Ancestral Visions is awesome against grindy fair decks that give you enough turns to take advantage of it but really bad against a huge portion of the field. Stoneblade is a control deck and flexibility is key in being able to handle the variety of decks you run into in Legacy. You are always going to have some cards that aren't relevant for a given match-up but dedicating 4 slots in your MD to beating a pretty narrow slice of the metagame seems like poor trade off.

@ Dean
BGx decks are a thing of the past already. Well, they are still there but the meta is clearly moving to loads of combo. Weakening the combo matchup to get a better grindy matchup seems terrible if jund is not going to be prevalent anymore and combo will rise in force. BTW, i don't think ancestral vision is worth the loss of lingering souls. I win most of my grindy matchups with souls. Actually my results against grindy decks are far better than against anything else. ATM the field is wide open and a mix of fair/unfair decks, so i wouldn't risk including cards that are only good against a portion of it and terribad against the rest.
that's my two cents.

Totally some solid points - at Edison it seemed like the field was pretty evenly split between BGx and combo, with everything else taking a backseat to those, so I'm assuming that there won't be too much of a difference in metagame variation at DC given how they're reasonably close to each other. I'm probably going to swap the third Lingering Souls for the fourth FoW in Vidi's maindeck just for the better combo matchup. It makes the grindy matchups slightly worse in game 1 but between the large amount of card selection alongside the inherent power level of most of our cards, I'm sure it won't make too much of a difference whereas cutting the Verdict for a FoW might, at least as far as g1 is concerned.

Have any of you tested a md Elspeth? I've had a ton of success with her as a fourth planeswalker to gain a huge edge in attrition-based matchups and, of course, she's really good at killing Jace or breaking through Batterskull stalemates. She also helps to marginalise the loss of a third Souls in the main.

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Originally Posted by James Dean

Have any of you tested a md Elspeth? I've had a ton of success with her as a fourth planeswalker to gain a huge edge in attrition-based matchups and, of course, she's really good at killing Jace or breaking through Batterskull stalemates. She also helps to marginalise the loss of a third Souls in the main.

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I was actually about to test her out now that I am back to esper, however my main concern for her was the additional spell with ww cost she adds in the deck. I am already not happy with supreme verdict being ww too, so I am kinda unsure about adding another one of those to the deck , and how it affects our game in general, having 2 spells costed that way MD. I could also be freaking out for no reason tho.

As such, I am also interested in knowing just how much she adds to the deck, if anyone has tested her out.

Pre-Lingering souls I think Elspeth (and maybe Vedalken Shackles) was the best way to dominate the board in the mirror (which basicly meant keeping your jace on the table). It was also a great way to force G/x to overextend with goyfs and knights into WoG.
Right now Lingering souls is like elspeth, only faster and better. If your meta is heavily infested with Engineered plague I could see one beeing played in the sideboard as an alternative route to get equipments going... but from my own testing I would generally max out on souls first and then max out on jace (to find those souls) before adding elspeth, knight-errant.

@ThediscoPower
Keep practicing. You really need to practice to do well with esper stone blade, I been playing it for a couple years and I still make misplays.

@Unsummon
Sideboard really depends on what you expect to face in your metagame.
4 Surgical Extraction is too many. I have moved to 3 Rest in Peace for graveyard hate. It does nerf your Linger Souls and Snapcaster Mages but you usually board some or all of those out when you board in graveyard hate. Rest in Peace is better vs Dredge, Punshing Fire, BUG (shamans, goyfs, snapcasters), Zombies. Surgical Extraction does have some application vs combo and control.

I haven't tried Geist of Saint Taft. What match ups do you board it in against other then Blue White Helm/Miracles? Seems not very good vs anything with a decent amount of creatures. In the Esper Mirror, they have Snapcaster Mage, Lingering Souls Tokens, sometimes Dark Confidant. Some amount of Supreme Verdicts.

I prefer Flusterstorm to Spell Pierce in the sideboard vs combo. Better vs storm and in counterwars.

I don't like Needle. I rather remove the threat. You should have some more removal. Perish is pretty good with all the green Deathrites and Goyfs. Second Explosives is good too. If you can free a second slot for removal. Supreme Verdict can't be countered but can be difficult to cast at times costing 4 and double white.

I prefer Duress for my sideboard discard since it hits cards that cost 4+ like Force of Will and Sneak Attack that Inquisition does not. I don't like Cabal Therapy in that you can miss if your opponent does not have the card you named and you tend to board out Lingering Souls in Combo match ups. Others like Cabal therapy because you can get a 2 for 1 sometimes and its very good as your second discard spell.

@Zerzab11
Your board vs Goblins sounds good if they aren't on the Cavern of Souls plan. Turn 1 Cavern of Souls + Goblin Lackey is pretty disheartening when you are sitting on a Force of Will. Force of Will does counter Vial though.

I put Darkblast back in my board over Humility found Humility kinda hard to cast + nerfing all my creatures kinda makes for grindy games and not always playing at the store with 5 show and tell players.

Rest in Peace is worth playing despite the nerfing of Linger Souls and Snapcaster Mage because it is the win button in the Dredge + Punishing Fire match ups. I find Surgical does not cut it in either match up. Surgical on Dredge's Bridges slows them down but they still have the Dread Return win and Ichorids. So a second Surgical is required. Punishing Fire match ups they can just return the Punishing Fire in response to your extraction. Rest in Peace does have vulnerability to Abrupt Decay but it solves these two problem match ups.

@James Dean
If you want to draw cards I think Dark Confidant is prefered over Ancestral Visions as its the main reason to play black and don't have to wait several turns to draw additional cards. Linger Souls gives you flying equipment carriers and chump blockers which is pretty huge. Discard gives you information.

I been running main deck Elspeth for quite some time as the 4th Jace/ 3rd Linger Souls. Its been pretty good not just in grindy match ups. The +3/+3 flying ability can be pretty relavent if you need to kill fast, the 7/7 flying life link vigilance germ is pretty awesome. Costing WW can be an issue when you are getting hit with wasteland and Stifle but the costing 4 can be more of an issue then WW in that situation as you can fetch for basics and then play a dual for your second white.

@Kirika,Zerzab11

Rest in Peace is pretty solid against RUG too. Neuters 2/3 of their threats (and Lavamancer if they run it), and dealing with Delver is pretty easy.

Dark Confidant seems a little shaky when we're running 9 cards that cost 4 or more. He can do a ton of damage if we don't have a Batterskull in play. I don't know that cutting any of the cards that make us more consistent for raw card draw is the way to go just yet. I'll give it a shot sometime this week.

Stifle is the main problem, against Wasteland decks you're mostly fetching basics until turn 4 anyway. WW isn't too much of an issue imo, usually you're prioritizing having multiple White lands over multiple Black lands. Either way, I think Elspeth is definitely better than a third Souls. When you have a clear board to brainstorm with Jace, finding the extra planeswalker typically locks the game up in a more powerful way than finding another set of ghosts. It also allows you opponent more room to make mistakes as far as threat identification goes.

Is it possible to replace Polluted Delta + Underground Sea by Marsh Flats + Scrubland or does that not work?

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Originally Posted by kirdie

Is it possible to replace Polluted Delta + Underground Sea by Marsh Flats + Scrubland or does that not work?

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This would surely cause you a lot of problems. The main color of this deck is still blue. You need double blue for counterspell, clique and jace and you want a blue source on the table at all times. If you replace deltas with flats you will have a hard time fetching your basic islands which are very important. There is a reason esperblade runs the manabase it currently has. This deck has a very tight base and heavy color requirements which makes the manabase quite delicate and hard to change.