Printable View
Whirlpool Rider also has the added bonus of shuffling Narcomoebas back into your library from your hand in the event it gets Dread Returned undisturbed; pretty cool. That sets up the endgame nicely.
I mean, you're probably looking at dredging between three to five times with Rider entering play. That's perfectly fine, and doesn't cost you seven life to do it. Griselbrand is Griselbrand, but the shift in the fabric of this deck makes Rider - shockingly - the better choice, IMO.
Guys, I've done the impossible ...
MD
4 Golgari Grave Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
4 Shambling Shell
4 Phantasmagorian
4 Street Wraith
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Force of Will
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Narcomoeba
4 Nether Shadow
4 Ichorid
4 Bridge From Below
4 Dread Return
4 Whirlpool Rider
SB
4 Disrupting Shoal
4 Mindbreak Trap
4 Misdirection
Welcome to modern Dredge, aggro-control eat your heart out.
I had tried Fow maindeck, but with only 11 pitches it wasn't worth it, now it might be different. I don't know if having a counter for thalia/natural order/Trinisphere/random oozes is worth cutting chancellor, though. I see Force more as a antihate card,we can already win most g1's without it. The reason i tried it in the maindeck is freeing sideboard slots. Force + Shoal + Trap is already 12 slots, and i'd like to have something for elves, reanimator and some pitch for shoal->cage. I ran 1x FoW maindeck in my last online 3-round tournament because i needed 4 Faerie Macabre's in my sideboard, but i don't think i'll do it again: revealing our g2 strategy for a single sideboard slot kinda sucks.
Misdirection? Is that for counterwars and discard?
Edit: it should be fun versus reanimator: "Reanimate my Thug, dude!"
oneQuote:
Originally Posted by slave
Yeah, Gitaxian is needed.
Misdirection is good vs a lot of decks, vs RUG for example we can Misdirect their counters and their Surgical Extractions; altho' it's arguably unnecessary to play it, I wanted to push the idea of playing "aggro-control" Dredge as far as possible. Force of Will isn't just an anti-hate card, it's an anti-combo card. Now Storm can't just face roll all over us, they have to stop and Silence/Cabal Therapy us first and they have no idea whether or not we're playing Force of Will MD or which counter to name post-board when we have Force of Will, Mindbreak Trap and Disrupting Shoal as all possible counters. I really think this is the way to go, Force of Will MD means we're no longer just combo's bitch or a glass cannon vs Rest in Peace. Every card in our MD and SB serves a definite purpose to the point where no card is interchangeable for whatever cutesy bullshit people feel like playing anymore, that is a lock stock list.
Edit: Oh and just think about what saving that SB space means, Reanimator ain't shit when you can SB 4 Leyline of the Void and 3 Faerie Macabre on their ass
Actually vs rug i don't even side in Force of Will. I see you cut chancellor for Force of Will. I wouldn't to this, FoW is quite a bad answer to Deathrite shaman, which is widely played: it's counterable and triple timewalks your opponent. At least Contagion just double timewalks. If you want to play control just don't cut the chancellor. When i tried 4x FoW i had cut 1 Nether Shadow, 1 Dread Return, 1 Contagion (1x flex slot), 1 Phantasmagorian, if i'm not wrong. I might still have it written somewhere. I'll check later, when i get home.
Believe me, as one of the stalwart advocates of Chancellor of the Annex, I didn't cut Chancellor of the Annex without considerable thought. As far as I'm aware there's no difference between Force of Will and Contagion vs Deathrite Shaman, they're equally bad answers vs Deathrite Shaman, but they're answers vs Deathrite Shaman nonetheless and more importantly they're an answer vs Goblin Charbelchers, Empty the Warrens, Balustrade Spies, Undercity Informers and Infernal Tutors pushing your shit in on turn one. The deck is already pretty resilient vs Deathrite Shaman without Chancellor of the Annex, and it's no less so with Force of Will even tho' it comes at a price, so why wouldn't we shore up one of our weakest archetypical matchups by playing Force of Will?Quote:
Originally Posted by Thrasher
Yeah, I agree with Thrasher. Force of Will is only good here if it isn't invasive and kicking out Chancellor is a problem. DRS is still the mb card we are most worried about and Chancellor is better there. Yeah it's not as good as Force against combo, but our g2 and g3 percentages improve more than theirs considering we bring in 8 or more cards.
The marginal utility Chancellor of the Annex provides vs a single card that we have 8 other answers to is no where near as much as the marginal utility provides vs entire archetypes we have no answers to, just because you have 8 other, or even 12 other cards you can SB in vs Storm does not mean we have a good or winning match up % vs Storm. Think about Storm is designed to compete against aggro-control, a deck with just as many, if not more counters than us, the cantrips to find them and the ability to mulligan to find them.Quote:
Originally Posted by igri_is_a_bk
This is more than a 4 card swap for whatever card that tickles your fancy, it literally completely changes the dynamic of this deck in the entire metagame. It's a small hit vs Deathrite Shaman, it's a major gain vs combo. You guys are concentrating on the wrong match ups, IMO. Deathrite Shaman is ubiquitous no doubt, but plenty of people have done well without running Chancellor vs it anyway.
I just do not agree with that thought process at all. I want Force to be in the 75 and maybe even the 60 but just not in Chancellor's place. I think you've dug too deep to suggest eight answers are enough for DRS - excluding Force - or that DRS isn't a higher priority than combo. A triple Time Walk is just unacceptable as an answer; legacy decks are too good for that. DRS completely shuts you down. Storm or SneaknShow or whatever might race you. I know this is a really bare bones argument, but it's really that simple to me.
If there are more decks that get wrecked by Force than decks that wreck you with DRS, then I'll concede the fact. But I have a feeling there are more DRS decks.
Just looking at the DtB section for example
Team America? yep
Elves? yep
DnT? no
Shardless? yep
Deathblade? yep
RUG? no
Sneak? no
Miracle? no
Jund? yep
Blade? no
Nic Fit? sometimes
Patriot? no
Force looks better than Chancellor against Sneak and... maybe Elves? Are you building for the MTGO meta where everyone is playing cheap combo decks? That couuld also explain this difference in opinion.
You're right, sorry, i messed up.Quote:
Originally Posted by Final Fortune
Anyway,i agree with igri_is_a_bk , i've always found a lot more DRS than storm decks. In the last big tournament i faced 3 team america and 1 jund. I think that to be able to do well at a tournament with this deck we have to minimize the chance of auto losing. Having 8 outs to DRS equals a 65% chance of escaping the lock, having 12 is a lot higher, around 80%. I think we can't afford to lose g1 due to random bad luck, that's why i like being well prepared for DRS.
On the combo matchups: chancellor is actually great versus storm, too, i think it's our best opening. Force is useless after a duress/Gitaxian+Therapy. Sneak and Show is a pretty good matchup, isn't it? They can't really use show and tell effectively and sneak attack is quite slow. Plus we can easily race emrakul.
Found my list, btw. It didn't work with so few pitches, it might be better with Whirlpool Rider.
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
3 Shambling Shell
3 Dread Return
1 Flayer of the Hatebound
3 Phantasmagorian
4 Force of Will
4 Street Wraith
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Ichorid
3 Nether Shadow
4 Bridge from Below
4 Narcomoeba
4 Chancellor of the Annex
4 Gitaxian Probe
3 Griselbrand
Sideboard:
4 Disrupting Shoal
4 Mindbreak Trap
1 Wandering Ones
4 Faerie Macabre
2 Contagion
It could be a MTGO vs a brick and mortar meta thing, I don't play IRL at all. I have tested the Manaless Dredge vs combo match up tho' a lot and even with a MD that plays Chancellor of the Annex and Unmask it is an uphill battle.
That said it's not just the odds of us drawing an answer to Deathrite Shaman, its the odds of them drawing a Deathrite Shaman as well so 1/3 chance we don't draw an answer to Deathrite Shaman multiplied by a 2/5 chance they do draw a Deathrite Shaman and it's only 2/15 or 13% of the time. I don't have the time to do the math, but let's say Chancellor of the Annex reduces the odds to a 1/5 chance we don't draw an answer to a Deathrite Shaman and we've only improved to 8%. Now compare that to the 40% stopping power that Force of Will gives us vs combo goldfishing us, and remember even if it's a bad answer to Deathrite Shaman it's still an answer to Deathrite Shaman, and can you really tell me that trade off isn't worth it?
If you're facing a lot of combo decks then go with force maindeck. It's a matter of metagame. I almost never find All spells or Belcher, the most common combo deck here is Sneak and Show, followed by ANT. I don't have trouble with S&T, and ANT isn't really stopped by force of will. Keep in mind that if you win the die roll and choose to draw, any decent ANT player who knows manaless will start with discard to get a timewalk.
The chance of drawing a 4-of is 39,9%. You have a 14% chance of getting locked/timewalked by deathrite shaman with 8 answers, 8% with 12. That's a 6% difference, if i didn't mess up, and they're both pretty low. However, if you consider the chance of not drawing dredgers, phantasmagorian with just a single dredger/2 weak dredgers, phantasmagorian vs double deathrite shaman, the chance of getting locked with 8 answers gets annoying, if you expect to face a lot of DRS decks in a tournament.
I don't think doing -4 Chancellor +4 FoW is wrong, it just doesn't fit my playstyle and metagame.
I'm cool with that, I just think even being able to MD Force of Will is probably the most exciting thing that has happened to this archetype in awhile and I really want to run with the idea and maximize SB space. I've been thinking of even crazier shit like MDing both Force of Will and Disrupting Shoal because they're both frankly just pretty good vs aggro-control as you can Force their counterspells or Disrupting Shoal their Daze etc. and get those Dread Returns to go off or just stop them from getting a Stoneforge Mystic on the board etc.
I mean our MD and SB can really expand to give us a shot vs Storm and Reanimator right now, it's just such a unique approach to this deck considering what we've been doing for the last few years.
I don't think that the blue package should go MB. Many opponents do not think about it because they're used to a certain kind of hate vs dredge and the surprise in g2 is what matters.
They could go rip / cage without a fow / daze backup, and that's the point.
Ruining this surprise could lead to others counterspells to face.
The surprise is ruined after one time anyways. And we're not trying to fit in Force of Will for one tournament. We're trying to increase the resiliency of the deck overall while opening up sb space. They're going to play that Cage or RiP probably even if they don't have the counter back up. Think about how paranoid most people are when playing against dredge.
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Force of Will
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Dread Return
4 Bridge from Below
4 Chancellor of the Annex
3 Phantasmagorian
4 Street Wraith
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
3 Shambling Shell
4 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Nether Shadow
3 Whirlpool Rider
4 Mindbreak Trap
4 Disrupting Shoal
4 Faerie Macabre
3 Surgical Extraction
Here's what I'm gonna give a try for now. I'm pretty pumped for Whirlpool tbh.
Seems worth a try. Damn there seems to be no space for +1 Phantasma and +1 Flayer =(Quote:
Originally Posted by igri_is_a_bk
Cut a Nether Shadow, it's pretty redundant.
mmh Although I like this card very much and It is a good defense against DRS and targeted gy hate, Phant fucks a little bit around with the whirlpool guy. Maybe 3 is the right number... I'll have to test.
what do you think about the last list?
edit: Spelling + q
Exactly, and whilst this may be a moot point most of the time, but I like it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hollywood
I have to agree at this (early) stage.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hollywood
The only minus I can see is how it interacts with Phantasmagorian, and against heavy discard decks like Pox. But we smash Pox anyways, so whoop-dee-fuckin-doo.
I've done about 60 or 70 goldfishes so far and a handful of games on MGTO.
Rider has the benefit of just working with the blue plan so well. Because of that, there will be times we can roll with the Dread Return plan postboard, where we might not have with Spy/G-man.
This to me seems so much win.:tongue:
I LOL'd when I read that.:laugh:Quote:
Originally Posted by Final Fortune
I used to fret about the strengths/weaknesses of LED-Dredge VS Manaless, about which was more resilient pre- and postboard.
Now that the blue side looks like it actually works, I don't have any doubts.
Manaless looks like a more flexible choice now, and (surprisingly) more robust. Anyone disagree?
I agree. I face a load more decks running DRS than Storm.Quote:
Originally Posted by igri_is_a_bk
Whilst a blue side for protection against combo (or control for that matter) is great, Contagion is still a great option.
DRS isn't the only thing I fear, Goblin Lackey can be a real bastard on top of their white taxing sideboard.
I still want a way to deal with that little fucker before they land a taxer on T2 to stop me playing anything, especially as they can nerf our bridges.
True dat.Quote:
Originally Posted by Graf_Caligula
Phantsamagorian numbers I haven't tested yet. I'll give it a go.
I'm edging towards four Riders. I'm yet to decide on the best number. I like 3, but 4 means we can exile one without a second thought of damaging our Dread Return chances. I also think backing down the number of Phants for game1 could be a mistake, given it's a great card to discard first.
Saying that, I'm still not convinced either way.
I'm gonna be running this on the wknd. May swap the number of Phants & Riders, maybe drop a single Flayer.
I don't wanna run Force in the main, wanna keep that a secret.:wink:
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
3 Shambling Shell
4 Dread Return
2 Flayer of the Hatebound
3 Phantasmagorian
4 Street Wraith
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Ichorid
4 Nether Shadow
4 Bridge from Below
4 Narcomoeba
4 Chancellor of the Annex
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Whirlpool Rider
Sideboard:
4 Disrupting Shoal
4 Force of Will
4 Contagion
3 of something I haven't decided yet!
I'm still frightened of turn 1 Leyline of the Void. If someone has these, all they have to do is mulligan to oblivion and they beat us in both game2 and 3. I still see this card fairly often. Anything we can do with Blue about it?
Why do you need Force of Will and Contagion when Force of Will deals with the same, and more problems? Are you running both?