[Deck] Burn

Quote:

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Originally Posted by David Kaplan

I have taken stock Burn and splashed Blue for Delver/Brainstorm. It's tough to get feedback on the this thread, as many are opposed to a splash and on the U/R Delver thread, as many are opposed to too much burn. I appreciate any feedback you may have on my version.

//Creatures
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Goblin Guide
4 Grim Lavamancer

//Burn
4 Chain Lightning
4 Fireblast
4 Lava Spike
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Rift Bolt
4 Price of Progress

//Splash
4 Brainstorm
1 Daze (Up in the air over this 60th slot... Snapcaster, Flame Rift, Wasteland even Phantasmal Bear)

//Mana (19)
12 Sac Lands
3 Mountain
4 Volcanic Island

//Sideboard
5 Pyroblast/REB
3 Searing Blaze
3 Smash to Smithereens
1 Spell Pierce
3 Submerge
Faerie Macabre
Mountain
Wasteland


I'm looking for a solid strategy against Ugr Thres. I like Submerge w/ REB backup in response to a fetch. Stifle/Wasteland is tough, thinking about an extra Mountain or even Wasteland retaliation.

Any thoughts?

Thanks

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I think that what you're referring to as "sac lands" should be referred to as "Fetch Lands".

It seems to me that you essentially replaced the "Tier 2" burn spells (e.g. Flame Rift, Magma Jet, or even Keldon Marauders) with Delver of Secrets and Brainstorm, which might actually be a good idea. With the small number of cards that you're splashing for, the following points are probably the ones that you'd need to consider:

• Do the benefits of splashing for these cards outweigh the trade-off of weakening your manabase?
• Whenever you have these cards in your hand, try to determine if you would be better-off with one of the Tier 2 burn spells you've replaced.
• The cards that you're trying to splash for are definitely good cards, but you have to consider if these cards really add to what you're trying to achieve as a burn deck.

Personally, I think that you're going to win a lot of games with this configuration, but I find it likely that these games would still be probably won had you used burn spells instead (and avoiding the drawbacks of splashing for a color).

The SB is a different story though. If you can justify splashing blue to get access to SB cards that would otherwise be inaccessible, then the splash might be worth considering. For example, more Spell Pierce might be useful.

For the last singleton card, an alternative could be Shard Volley. Think of it as the 5th Fireblast. I personally do have that card as a singleton in my configuration.

Kind Regards,
jares

Ensnaring Bridge is awesome against Stoneforge Mystic-based decks. My 2 wins last Saturday were against Stoneblade. The decks with Green Sun's Zenith are the ones that give Burning Bridge a problem.
I feel that my poor showing was due to play mistakes/inexperience with the deck and some sub-optimal sideboard cards.

@Pulp_Fiction, I had access to the Thoughtseizes but did not use them. I did not want to double splash and still wouldn't in the future. Although next time around I would probably splash black for Thoughtseize instead of green for Krosan Grip.
Tower of the Magistrate seems like a great card right now.
Blood Moon never came in if I needed Taiga to make G. I love that card too because it shuts down so many strategies.

@jares, Searing Blaze is misleadingly bad. Fiction is right here. On the draw it is too slow to hit Mom and then it's dead for the rest of the game. On the play it is nice as long as you have a fetchland. There were a couple of times where I went to play it and then realized that I'd only be doing 1 damage... It LOOKS so good because you hurt there board without deviating from your primary strategy but it's not a great card in this format.
Your arguments against Ensnaring Bridge are valid. Although that card IS the reason I sleeved this deck up in the first place. I liked that it was main deck and mulligan'd for it frequently. I don't know if I will always keep it main deck. The biggest downside is the CMC.

@Tammit, I dunno, I might be back to goblins next time =)
Ensnaring Bridge in multiples isn't THAT bad. In fact a 2nd one would have locked up my game 1 against you.


Overall the cards I liked seeing LEAST were Rift Bolt and Magma Jet. Rift Bolt frequently became Blood Moon or Vexing Shusher games 2 and 3. Magma Jet may be a disappointing necessity because it scrys (scries?) the extra land away. I just hate spending 2 mana for 2 damage every time I play it...
What cards from the main deck does everyone normally board out when sideboarding? I know the obvious ones (PoP comes out against mono-basic.deck), but sideboarding is a weakness of mine and I'd be interested in hearing from others on it.

The RDW player that top 8'd (and then failed against 4cCounterTop) had an interesting piece of tech that worked well for him all day. He ran 3 Seal of Fire. He said it helped dodge counter magic so he could kill Stoneforge Mystic.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ace/Homebrew

[cards]
@Tammit, I dunno, I might be back to goblins next time =)
Ensnaring Bridge in multiples isn't THAT bad. In fact a 2nd one would have locked up my game 1 against you.

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Locked is kinda misleading. I had active Jace and Elspeth and a huge KotR with Swords in my hand iirc. I'd have to Jace you, but the game would have been different to be sure.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ace/Homebrew

@jares, Searing Blaze is misleadingly bad. Fiction is right here. On the draw it is too slow to hit Mom and then it's dead for the rest of the game. On the play it is nice as long as you have a fetchland. There were a couple of times where I went to play it and then realized that I'd only be doing 1 damage... It LOOKS so good because you hurt there board without deviating from your primary strategy but it's not a great card in this format.

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Thanks for providing some input on Searing Blaze. I have a few responses to the following notes:

• "On the draw it is too slow to hit Mom and then it's dead for the rest of the game."
  
  • I find that this reason is too narrow as a basis for saying that the card is bad (this form of logic would probably have more weight if we're able to enumerate a list of creatures rather than just specifying that the card is bad against Mother of Runes). Also, for this case, the only reasonable play is to respond to the Mom trigger - this might not be a situation that we'd like to be in, but it's also not a bad enough situation to serve as a basis for saying that a card is bad.
• "On the play it is nice as long as you have a fetchland."
  
  • This reason probably warrants more weight in our considerations for why Searing Blazep might be bad, not because of being on the play, but because of the inherent inconsistencies of landfall. Its dependency on landfall presents a sense of inconsistency in a deck that thrives on redundancies. Personally, I play 12 Fetches (alongside 8 Mountain), so I rarely have a problem with triggering landfall whenever I need to. Still, the inconsistency is there.
• "There were a couple of times where I went to play it and then realized that I'd only be doing 1 damage..."
  
  • This is what happens because of the said inconsistency.

Personally, I've had very good experiences with Searing Blaze, specifically against the following matchups:

• Merfolk
• Zoo
• Burn (mirror)
• Maverick
• Mono-Black (Aggro/Control)
• Affinity

Basically any opposing deck that has a fair amount of creatures makes the card playable. I've observed that what it does for me in these match-ups is that it significantly swings the tempo of the game towards my advantage (it's essentially a 2-for-1), especially when I'm already losing based on the game state. If there was one thing that I like about the card, its that it helps in the situations where you would otherwise be losing.

That is not to say that I haven't had my share of problems with the card. As previously stated, landfall won't always be available, and even when you do have a means of triggering it, you would sometimes be forced to play around with the timing for it, causing some slightly awkward changes in how you would normally play the rest of the deck.

I used to have Searing Blaze in the MD because of how my meta used to look like (back when Merfolk was heavily played), but I'd probably cut it now in favor of a more reliable burn spell (or even Keldon Marauders). A few SB slots for it might still be worthwhile.

In summary, I wouldn't say that Searing Blaze is a bad card in the Format, but rather, it becomes bad depending on how the metagame shifts from one form to another. It's also worth noting that, Burn might be the only archetype that's capable of properly wielding the card (and also Zoo maybe).

I'd be interested to hear additional objective evaluations of this card. I'm sure that there are a few points (for both pros and cons) that have not been stated yet.

Kind Regards,
jares

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ace/Homebrew

Overall the cards I liked seeing LEAST were Rift Bolt and Magma Jet. Rift Bolt frequently became Blood Moon or Vexing Shusher games 2 and 3. Magma Jet may be a disappointing necessity because it scrys (scries?) the extra land away. I just hate spending 2 mana for 2 damage every time I play it...

What cards from the main deck does everyone normally board out when sideboarding? I know the obvious ones (PoP comes out against mono-basic.deck), but sideboarding is a weakness of mine and I'd be interested in hearing from others on it.

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I've never liked Magma Jet. Much like yourself, it feels underwhelming to play a 2-damage card, especially because it costs 2 mana! I find that we could probably get more value from a card that costs 2 mana. Again, Keldon Marauders comes to mind (lol):laugh:.

I remember that a few decks have tried to splash blue for Delver of Secrets (and even Brainstorm). The scry from Magma Jet might be worthwhile for those configurations.

Lava Spike is one of the cards that I usually side-out, aside from the obvious Price of Progress against those that don't use non-basics. Flame Rift also comes out in certain match-ups.

Cheers,
jares

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jares

I wouldn't say that Searing Blaze is a bad card in the Format, but rather, it becomes bad depending on how the metagame shifts from one form to another.

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I agree. When Tribal is big it is a much better card. I don't like it main deck but could see using it in the sideboard depending on meta shifts.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jares

Lava Spike is one of the cards that I usually side-out, aside from the obvious Price of Progress against those that don't use non-basics. Flame Rift also comes out in certain match-ups.

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Flame Rift makes sense, thanks! Why Lava Spike though?
jares, you mind sharing your list?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ace/Homebrew

I agree. When Tribal is big it is a much better card. I don't like it main deck but could see using it in the sideboard depending on meta shifts.

Flame Rift makes sense, thanks! Why Lava Spike though?
jares, you mind sharing your list?

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Lava Spike sometimes goes out simply because it's only able to target players. A specific example is when your opponent is the type of deck that would use Leyline of Sanctity (e.g. Enchantress, my least favorite match-up when playing Burn). In comparison, Flame Rift becomes much more important in this match-up because it does not target players. Another case where you would want to side-out Lava Spike is when you're up against a creature-heavy deck (or a deck with creatures that you'll need to address), and especially when you have SB cards packed for those situations (e.g. Searing Blaze).

Honestly, it's been a while now since I've actually played Burn competitively (I've picked-up Dredge as my deck of choice), so my list might be a bit outdated (e.g. Searing Blaze MD). I'll try to check if I have the list readily available somewhere.

Kind Regards,
jares

@jares: Searing Blaze isn't bad, but its just in a format like Legacy there are so many other cards to play with that are better in burn that this should hardly make the cut. Magma Jet is in here for the scrying ability and finding Bridge. I agree, I hate paying 2 mana for 2 damage but it is really the only burn spell that burns AND digs in mono-red.

The Maverick matchup isn't that bad with Bridge. I'd say its still in our favor even though they have answers for Bridge, they still have to address it and by nature of being Burn we are usually going to kill them on turns 4-6.

When I SB Thoughtseize comes in against everything except decks with Chalice. I auto-cut Lava Spike against everything and usually remove some form of Flame Rifts and Rift Bolts. I cut Fireblast against anything with Force due to the reliance on Shusher. Just use your judgment. I have cut every card in the deck before at some time or another, but most of the time just think: Spike, Flame Rift, Rift Bolt/Fireblast.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ace/Homebrew

I agree. When Tribal is big it is a much better card. I don't like it main deck but could see using it in the sideboard depending on meta shifts.

Flame Rift makes sense, thanks! Why Lava Spike though?
jares, you mind sharing your list?

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Here's the list that I last played with:

Main Deck:
4x Lightning Bolt
4x Chain Lightning
4x Lava Spike
4x Rift Bolt
1x Shard Volley
4x Fireblast
4x Price of Progress
4x Flame Rift
4x Goblin Guide
4x Grim Lavamancer
3x Searing Blaze

Lands:
8x Mountain
3x Arid Mesa
3x Scalding Tarn
3x Bloodstained Mire
3x Wooded Foothills

Sideboard:
2x Tormod's Crypt
2x Relic of Progenitus
4x Vexing Shusher
4x Pyrostatic Pillar
3x Smash to Smithereens

Notes:

• I'm unsure of what I would put in for the 3x Searing Blaze slots, but Sulfuric Vortex is looking good against the current meta.
• I remember I also used to have 3x Volcanic Fallout in the SB.
• I've been trying to mess with Spark Elemental to try and maximize the number of 1-cost 3-damage cards, but I'm not sure that it's worth risking the situation where you're not able to deal the last few points of damage because your opponent has a blocker untapped (or even a Swords to Plowshares ready).

It's been a while since I've tried to upgrade the list, so I'm hoping to find something compellingly good from the new set.

Kind Regards,
jares

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Pulp_Fiction

@jares: Searing Blaze isn't bad, but its just in a format like Legacy there are so many other cards to play with that are better in burn that this should hardly make the cut. Magma Jet is in here for the scrying ability and finding Bridge. I agree, I hate paying 2 mana for 2 damage but it is really the only burn spell that burns AND digs in mono-red.

The Maverick matchup isn't that bad with Bridge. I'd say its still in our favor even though they have answers for Bridge, they still have to address it and by nature of being Burn we are usually going to kill them on turns 4-6.

When I SB Thoughtseize comes in against everything except decks with Chalice. I auto-cut Lava Spike against everything and usually remove some form of Flame Rifts and Rift Bolts. I cut Fireblast against anything with Force due to the reliance on Shusher. Just use your judgment. I have cut every card in the deck before at some time or another, but most of the time just think: Spike, Flame Rift, Rift Bolt/Fireblast.

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I guess it's fair to say that Magma Jet is indeed an unpleasant necessity, especially if there's a need for you to dig. The way I go about it, though, is to try to minimize the need for "digging" by going with as much redundancy as I can (thus, the Shard Volley and the "safe" number of lands; I can't remember the number of times that I've been tempted to go down to 19 or less). I also try to help minimize the need to dig by maximizing the fetch land count (I've been thinking of going up to 14, but the returns aren't too attractive based on the math), which conveniently helps support Grim Lavamancer.

I just had a thought though... I never considered playing just 1-2 copies of Magma Jet. You never want to draw/play the card early, and also not in multiples, but the benefits of having "just enough" might be worthwhile. I'm actually surprised that I never considered this (maybe because all the lists I've seen so far have 3-4 MD) :tongue:. How do you guys go about using Magma Jet?

Kind Regards,
jares

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Pulp_Fiction

When I SB Thoughtseize comes in against everything except decks with Chalice.

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Why not main deck Thoughtseize? I ask having never tried the card. You speak of it's importance for games 2 and 3, and it seems like it could steal game 1s too. I'll have to mess around with it to see how I like it...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jares

Here's the list that I last played with:

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Thanks for sharing jares!

I notice Volcanic Fallout and Flamebreak aren't getting any love nowadays. Is this because the CMC > 2? Fallout especially seems good with Geist of Saint Traft growing in popularity. Thoughts?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ace/Homebrew

Why not main deck Thoughtseize? I ask having never tried the card. You speak of it's importance for games 2 and 3, and it seems like it could steal game 1s too. I'll have to mess around with it to see how I like it...

Thanks for sharing jares!

I notice Volcanic Fallout and Flamebreak aren't getting any love nowadays. Is this because the CMC > 2? Fallout especially seems good with Geist of Saint Traft growing in popularity. Thoughts?

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I think that Volcanic Fallout becomes necessary whenever Tribal Decks become more common in the metagame. I personally did not need it that much during the last time I played because I have MD Searing Blaze, so I was able to clear some room in the SB that way. I wouldn't worry too much about Geist of Saint Traft, though, as I feel that Volcanic Fallout is best used against Merfolk (which is why I prefer it over Flamebreak).

Kind Regards,
jares

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Pulp_Fiction

The Maverick matchup isn't that bad with Bridge. I'd say its still in our favor even though they have answers for Bridge, they still have to address it and by nature of being Burn we are usually going to kill them on turns 4-6.

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I'm thinking that I like Sulfuric Vortex way better than Ensnaring Bridge for the following reasons:

• Sulfuric Vortex is able to deal (constant) damage, and can even potentially win the game by itself.
• If we're boarding-in Ensnaring Bridge against decks that run Stoneforge Mystic, then it seems to me like Sulfuric Vortex can essentially accomplish the same job (preventing life gain from Batterskull and/or Umezawa's Jitte) with added benefits.
• Sulfuric Vortex works much better in multiples compared to Ensnaring Bridge.
• Sulfuric Vortex does not present the possibility of ineffectiveness (as someone has already stated) when faced against smaller creatures (e.g. Maverick). In general, we can expect Sulfuric Vortex to always be reliable in what we expect it to do.

I'd be interested to know if there's anything else that I'm missing regarding how Ensnaring Bridge has worked well for you guys.

Kind Regards,
jares

Hello, I'm going to a local legacy tournament next Wednesday with the following list:


4x Lava Spike
4x Rift Bolt
4x Lightning Bolt
4x Chain Lightning
4x Bump in the Night
4x Flame Rift
4x Price of Progress
4x Fireblast
3x Sensei's Divining Top
3x Ensnaring Bridge
3x Grim Lavamancer

4x Arid Mesa
4x Scalding Tarn
1x Bloodstained Mire
8x Mountain
2x Badlands


The sideboard is still up in the air, as I plan to scout a bit once I get to the store, but will likely include the usual suspects.

As for the Bridge/Vortex debate, I'm squarely on the fence. I plan to further evaluate after this tournament. If I decide to run vortex, I will cut the black in the deck in favor of more creatures as Ensnaring Bridge turns off your own guys, which is problematic.

The one card I absolutely love in this deck is Top. That card is soo good at finding me what I need at the right time. It gives burn reach which is great. Honestly, this should have been added years ago.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by redhamjack

Hello, I'm going to a local legacy tournament next Wednesday with the following list:


4x Lava Spike
4x Rift Bolt
4x Lightning Bolt
4x Chain Lightning
4x Bump in the Night
4x Flame Rift
4x Price of Progress
4x Fireblast
3x Sensei's Divining Top
3x Ensnaring Bridge
3x Grim Lavamancer

4x Arid Mesa
4x Scalding Tarn
1x Bloodstained Mire
8x Mountain
2x Badlands


The sideboard is still up in the air, as I plan to scout a bit once I get to the store, but will likely include the usual suspects.

As for the Bridge/Vortex debate, I'm squarely on the fence. I plan to further evaluate after this tournament. If I decide to run vortex, I will cut the black in the deck in favor of more creatures as Ensnaring Bridge turns off your own guys, which is problematic.

The one card I absolutely love in this deck is Top. That card is soo good at finding me what I need at the right time. It gives burn reach which is great. Honestly, this should have been added years ago.

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I've also tested the build with the black splash for Bump In the Night, and I wasn't too happy with the results. At the end of the day, weakening your manabase in exchange for the inclusion of a black Lava Spike didn't seem to be worth it.

I personally think that adding Sensei's Divining Top causes the deck to lose tempo, but this might be a necessary evil in exchange for filtering your draw. I haven't personally tested it, but I'd be interested to see the results (I've got Shrapnel Blast at the back of my head when I think of including Artifacts in Burn).

Kind Regards,
jares

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jares

I've also tested the build with the black splash for Bump In the Night, and I wasn't too happy with the results. At the end of the day, weakening your manabase in exchange for the inclusion of a black Lava Spike didn't seem to be worth it.

I personally think that adding Sensei's Divining Top causes the deck to lose tempo, but this might be a necessary evil in exchange for filtering your draw. I haven't personally tested it, but I'd be interested to see the results (I've got Shrapnel Blast at the back of my head when I think of including Artifacts in Burn).

Kind Regards,
jares

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That has been my concern too. I do hate being open to Wasteland. What I have found though is that I can play Bump in the Night last, and having the extra bolt seems worth it in my mind.

Also, you need to test Top. It is really, really good. Again, just play normally until you need some extra reach, then use top to get there. That way you don't lose any tempo.

I have also been thinking of Shrapnel Blast. I worry that I would need to run artifact lands as well. It would be interesting to test though.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by redhamjack

That has been my concern too. I do hate being open to Wasteland. What I have found though is that I can play Bump in the Night last, and having the extra bolt seems worth it in my mind.

Also, you need to test Top. It is really, really good. Again, just play normally until you need some extra reach, then use top to get there. That way you don't lose any tempo.

I have also been thinking of Shrapnel Blast. I worry that I would need to run artifact lands as well. It would be interesting to test though.

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That's how I've been playing it too, trying to hold off on getting Badlands into play for as long as possible. The problem, though, is that you're likely to run into a situation where you'll need to put Badlands into play, not to case Bump in the Night, but to cast something else to keep up with your natural tempo. This has been my experience with my testing so far, and hopefully you'll get better results. It's also worth noting, by the way, that running Badlands also allows your own Price of Progress to hit you.

As for Sensei's Divining Top, having to cast it instead of a Burn card is a loss of tempo by itself - unless you do activate its draw ability on the same turn, which in turn would cost you 1 mana (or 2 mana if you did the scry first), plus the cost of the burn spell you intend to cast. That scenario isn't something that sounds too optimal to me, except maybe if the meta that I'm playing in is slow enough to allow me to invest on "reach".

I've tested Shrapnel Blast recently, and as much as have been wanting that to work, it's currently not a good idea.

Kind Regards,
jares

Friend of mine took 3rd place at his first ever Magic tournament with the Burn deck we threw together for him. It was so funny, when I asked him, what his opponents were playing, he was always just like "I don't know, lol". :laugh:

For the record, he was playing a full playset of Volcanic Fallout which broke our metagame of Elves and Maverick right in half.

I tuned into the SCG: DC coverage after watching the NFC Championship, but I wasn't in time. It sounds like Burn won it all though.

@ Redhamjack I had made a similar deck to the one you mentioned that included bump in the night, but I have never yet cast it's flashback cost (I think I'm a bit greedy with my fireblasts.)

As I made it black though, I have added a couple of cards that I found slow the deck by a turn or so, but increase consistency considerably.

Looking at your list (below) I would make the following changes:


4x Lava Spike
4x Rift Bolt
4x Lightning Bolt
4x Chain Lightning
4x Bump in the Night
4x Flame Rift
4x Price of Progress
4x Fireblast
3x Sensei's Divining Top
3x Ensnaring Bridge
3x Grim Lavamancer

4x Arid Mesa
4x Scalding Tarn
1x Bloodstained Mire
8x Mountain
2x Badlands


-3 Ensnaring bridge
-3 sensei's divining top
-4 Flame Rift

+4 Keldon Marauders
+4 Dark Confidant
+2 cabal therapy (synergistic with marauders and confidant)

I found that the extra few points of damage the confidant usually slips through, combined with the draw engine it provides makes the splash for black very dangerous.

Just my 2 cents...