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Just run 2-3 Circle of Protection: Red and 2 Ajani Goldmane. CoP protects you from a lethal Price of Progress, whether Shusher is out or not. Ajani Goldmane and Elspeth just forces them to waste Burn on it while you sit behind CoP:R and develop your position, otherwise they will be overwhelmed and lose.Quote:
Originally Posted by NQN
I gave up the ANT matchup. It´s not possible to win against it unless you waste like 4-6 Slots and even then, it will never become a good matchup. And since I live in germany, I NEVER ever have to face any combo other than 2GG->Wrath me or die.dec. Playing finks is like you started with said ~26-28 lifepoints since they have to remove it with f.e. 1 attack and 1 burnspell.
Even if everyone else hates them, I think Küchenhutzel is one of the best choices against red beatdown.
EDIT: CoP Red is fine as long as they don´t board in Grips (THat happens often since they think that Humility is good against them, don´t ask me why) and is only good against pure red beatdown. Finks can also be boarded against Merrows, goblins, mirror, loam(if you play cliques MD) and is at least a bad clock against ANT ;)
True, but CoP: Red is good against Goblins as well. But if you want to make a super compromise, maintain a good game against Zoo and still have a versatile SB choice; I think BEB is the way to go. It can be boarded in against Goblins and Aggro Loam as well. If you play against TES or ANT w/ Red, BEB can be the card you board in to replace those WoGs so you can FoW without removing a relevant card, counter opposing Pyroblasts, and against TES, you can eat up Burning Wishes and Rite of Flames.Quote:
Originally Posted by NQN
Vexing Shusher is definitely... vexing. I don't fear Hellspark that much; if it's really destroying you, graveyard control can handle it. I'm sure most people run Relic of Progenitus, Tormod's Crypt, heck, Scrabbling Claws and Samurai of the Pale Curtain even work. For those that play black, Planar Void stops such silliness. But still, I doubt we need to go this far to handle Hellspark, as even Swords to Plowshares and Path to Exile get rid of it.Quote:
Originally Posted by NQN
I agree. I generally keep PtE and Pulse/Ajani in my SB.Quote:
Originally Posted by mossivo1986
Blue Elemental Blast also works. It's bread and butter Red-hate.
Oh. Haha. Read my mind.Quote:
Originally Posted by Citrus-God
I typically don't fear Price of Progress though. But then again, I run 8 basics compared to the usual 3-4; it may just be personal preference or local metagame, but I feel Wasteland just slows me down since I've stopped maindecking Crucible of Worlds. Combined with 11 counterspells that can counter it, I don't think it's much more fearful than Browbeat or Shrapnel Blast.
I used to run 6 Basic Lands in Landstill. But ever since I started running Plague, I've gone back down to 5 Basic Lands.Quote:
Originally Posted by Taishaku
Crucible of Worlds is amazing when you have 3 Wastelands in the deck. Dust Bowl and CoW isn't very good considering you have to invest mana to destroy non-basic lands. Although Dust Bowl is good against a deck like Survival since you have the time to afford doing both Dust Bowl + replay a land, you tend to be more pressured against Merfolk. Heck, CoW against Merfolk is amazing. It kills Mutavaults so you can drop that Standstill. Although, I've been toying with running 6 Basics again and boarding in Akroma's Vengeance. Although a lot of players will say that Cursecatcher and Daze will just screw you over, I beg to differ. If you spend your eot casting Cunning Wish and FoFs, they're bound to counter them because it's a tempo play for them. Even if it involves casting two Daze effects, which in itself is card disadvantage for them and removes the fear of walking into being Force Spiked again. Then you just board sweepers or you wish for a Tsabo's Decree to gg the game.
@Citrus-God
The thing is, the combo is rather situational. It won't work against one-color decks like Solidarity and Vial Goblins and it messes up my land consistency to have 8 colorless lands (4 Mishra's Factory, 3 Wasteland, 1 Academy Ruins; I tend to follow Konsultant's deck with green splash instead of black). Also, there aren't as many situations these days where infinitely-recurring Mishra's Factory is going to be helpful. That's why my Crucibles are in my SB.
I think it only works well with tutors, but then that devolves into some toolbox deck.
Then there's the fact that every other deck runs Krosan Grip now. Heck, even I run Krosan Grip. It shuts down Sensei's Divining Top.
But yeah, when push comes to shove, I took 2 maindeck Krosan Grips over 2 Path to Exile, Humility, or Crucible of Worlds. The decks that I have the most troubles with tend to be weak to Krosan Grip. Sometimes I replace those with Path to Exile to stop the turn one Goblin Lackey or Hypnotic Specter.
Crucible of Worlds should be making your land drops, not doing a cutesy Wastelock. It just uses the cutesy Wastelock as a win condition or a way to destroy random shit like opposing Academy Ruins, Nantuko Monasteries, other Factories, Mutavaults and etc...Quote:
Originally Posted by Taishaku
Crucible of Worlds does work against Vial Goblins. It restores your mana base and destroys their Rishadan Ports. They also run dual lands too, considering they're running Black and/or Green nowadays. Also, making Mishra's Factories into blockers is pretty sweet. CoW is good against Merfolk too for the exact same reasons, but instead of hitting dual lands with your Wastelands you're hitting Mutavaults instead.
I piloted a UWb Vindicate list to a 3-1 finish at a local event the other night. All in all it was an awful metagame for Landstill. I based my list of Citrus’s most recent list, but lacking the wish targets and wanting to run Top I made the following changes: -3 C Wish, -2 FoF, -1 DoJ, -1 WoG, -1 Counterspell, +3 SDT, +3 Vindicate, +1 Spell Snare. I also cut a Plains for a Delta to improve Top’s effectiveness and to hit Black more reliably for Vindicate. SB included the 4th Vindicate, 3rd Wrath, 2 Path to Exile (completed my playset later that night with the credit I won), 2 Ajani, 2 Meddling Mage, 2/1 Crypt/Relic, 3 Humility, 1 Pithing Needle.
First round I had TES. Awesome. G1 – Kept a weak hand against combo because I didn’t know what he was playing. I had FoW, he Duressed and went off. G2 – He Chants, I Force, he goes Ad Nauseam with no mana floating and dies to poor flips. G3 – Turn 2 Meddling Mage. He goes for EtW the next turn via Burning Wish. I have Force, he mana burns for a ton. I escape with a round 1 victory.
Round 2 – Merfolk (with Dreadnought). Awesome. G1 - I win the roll. I open with Top, as long as he doesn’t play Vial I can go Factory – Standstill turn 2 and ride it to a win. He opens with Vial. He draws off 4 Standstills (literally) but I keep him off balance with EE as he can’t draw a Force or Daze. Eventually, I get too low on life and he has about 9 cards in his hand every turn. When I wrath into the 4th Standstill he finds Force and wins. G2 – Again he opens with Vial. He Vials in Cursecatcher and 2 Silvergill. I go for Wrath and he Echoing Truth’s his Silvergills. B2B resolves. I lose in short order.
Round 3 – RGw Zoo. Awesome. G1 – I hit all my land drops and get an E. Dragon plus 2 Factories. I go LD and have FoW for Fireblast. I swing for 9 twice and pass turn to him with both of us at 2. He has Plains/Taiga only so he swings with Lavamancer so he can cast Magma Jet. I swords my Dragon for the win. G2 – Too much burn. G3 – He’s slowing chipping down my life with burn. I have removal for his Goyfs. I get Ajani online. He chooses not to burn down Ajani with the hopes of scrying to find PoP with Fireblast in hand. It doesn’t happen. Ajani wins.
Round 4 – UGr Dreadstill G1 – Goyf + Factory beats me to 1. I have EE set to 2 for my next turn, then I rip Swords like a pro. He’s at 20. I Top into good stuff like Wasteland and Academy Ruins. Eventually I get Elspeth online, go indestructible, and have recurring EE. I win despite being down 19 life points. G2 – He beats with Factories while I look at a hand with 2 Wrath and 2 Humility. Time to change my boarding strategy. G3 – I’m stabilizing with Elspeth when time is called. My opponent scoops to me because I was 2-1 and he was 1-2. Very cool of him. We both think we would have won G3, and it probably would have been epic.
I felt like the maindeck was solid, despite some minor issues hitting double white early. Top is huge because of the insane card selection it provides. I think the Vindicate build is the way to go in a Counterbalance-defined meta. In a more wide-open meta I’d probably play the UWg list for a more stable mana base. Humility out of the board was so weak. I switched it up to look like: 1 Vindicate, 1 Wrath, 2/1 Crypt/Relic, 3 Path to Exile, 2 Ajani, 3 Meddling Mage, 2 Crucible of Worlds.
Thoughts and comments welcome.
Your numbers look very odd. Smooth that stuff out son.Quote:
I piloted a UWb Vindicate list to a 3-1 finish at a local event the other night. All in all it was an awful metagame for Landstill. I based my list of Citrus’s most recent list, but lacking the wish targets and wanting to run Top I made the following changes: -3 C Wish, -2 FoF, -1 DoJ, -1 WoG, -1 Counterspell, +3 SDT, +3 Vindicate, +1 Spell Snare. I also cut a Plains for a Delta to improve Top’s effectiveness and to hit Black more reliably for Vindicate. SB included the 4th Vindicate, 3rd Wrath, 2 Path to Exile (completed my playset later that night with the credit I won), 2 Ajani, 2 Meddling Mage, 2/1 Crypt/Relic, 3 Humility, 1 Pithing Needle.
UnderstandableQuote:
First round I had TES. Awesome. G1 – Kept a weak hand against combo because I didn’t know what he was playing.
Quote:
I had FoW, he Duressed and went off.
Incredibly odd. If your not applying pressure then he has nothing to worry about. Thats a key mistake by your combo player.Quote:
G2 – He Chants, I Force, he goes Ad Nauseam with no mana floating and dies to poor flips.
Naming?Quote:
G3 – Turn 2 Meddling Mage.
He burns for a ton? Explain this more clearly.Quote:
He goes for EtW the next turn via Burning Wish. I have Force, he mana burns for a ton. I escape with a round 1 victory.
You win because you played a bad Ant player is what this sums up to. Rarely does Ant boot a game, let alone boot two games. It's either a sign of a bad player, or a badly designed model; either case leads me to believe you got a safety in football terms, aka your opponent kicked himself in the nuts. Be happy it rarely happens.
Overall i'm suprised to see these lists around. Merfolk with naught is naught exceptional. haha bad Pun. Anyways the same basic plan applies here. side in 4PTE win game.Quote:
Round 2 – Merfolk (with Dreadnought). Awesome. G1 - I win the roll. I open with Top, as long as he doesn’t play Vial I can go Factory – Standstill turn 2 and ride it to a win. He opens with Vial. He draws off 4 Standstills (literally) but I keep him off balance with EE as he can’t draw a Force or Daze. Eventually, I get too low on life and he has about 9 cards in his hand every turn. When I wrath into the 4th Standstill he finds Force and wins. G2 – Again he opens with Vial. He Vials in Cursecatcher and 2 Silvergill. I go for Wrath and he Echoing Truth’s his Silvergills. B2B resolves. I lose in short order.
Another match-up where your opponent kicks himself in the nuts. He should have killed Ajani with blast or weakened it. Knowing that your not running wish and your under 10 life in game 3 he should have played the long game. He still wins because you lack enough relevant life-gain.Quote:
Round 3 – RGw Zoo. Awesome. G1 – I hit all my land drops and get an E. Dragon plus 2 Factories. I go LD and have FoW for Fireblast. I swing for 9 twice and pass turn to him with both of us at 2. He has Plains/Taiga only so he swings with Lavamancer so he can cast Magma Jet. I swords my Dragon for the win. G2 – Too much burn. G3 – He’s slowing chipping down my life with burn. I have removal for his Goyfs. I get Ajani online. He chooses not to burn down Ajani with the hopes of scrying to find PoP with Fireblast in hand. It doesn’t happen. Ajani wins.
He wasn't running fire/ice or lightning bolt in u/g/r dreadstill?Quote:
Round 4 – UGr Dreadstill G1 – Goyf + Factory beats me to 1. I have EE set to 2 for my next turn, then I rip Swords like a pro. He’s at 20. I Top into good stuff like Wasteland and Academy Ruins. Eventually I get Elspeth online, go indestructible, and have recurring EE. I win despite being down 19 life points.
double wrath isn't as bad as double humility. Take note peeps.Quote:
G2 – He beats with Factories while I look at a hand with 2 Wrath and 2 Humility.
Code:Time to change my boarding strategy.
If you continue to produce tokens you win. if you fuck up and sac for indestructable or remove for indestructable when he has more then 2 cards in hand then you lose.Code:G3 – I’m stabilizing with Elspeth when time is called. My opponent scoops to me because I was 2-1 and he was 1-2. Very cool of him.
Depends on your move with elspeth.Quote:
We both think we would have won G3, and it probably would have been epic.
qua'?Quote:
I felt like the maindeck was solid, despite some minor issues hitting double white early.
Yes.Quote:
Top is huge because of the insane card selection it provides.
You played maybe 1 counterbalance deck all day long and this is the summary of your tournament experience?Quote:
I think the Vindicate build is the way to go in a Counterbalance-defined meta.
Black doesn't make a bit of difference in how well you can build a mana-base. It's what your deck adopts as it's win cons/ utility spells in order to play its own personalized game. In your case it's vindicate. You naturally have to splash more because you have to run black more in the maindeck to suit this off color splash. In other models say wish models you run a much safer manabase because there is no need to splash black for anything but EE, Extirpate.Quote:
In a more wide-open meta I’d probably play the UWg list for a more stable mana base.
Humility in the maindeck is strongest because like citrus says and I completely agree. When opponents see SDT or Standstill they will unintentionally auto-side krosan grip in. In fact for proof I had one guy knowingly side in grip, which he said because I ran elspeth that I probobly ran solid enchantments to run alongside it to aid it into a removal "without seeing humility mind you." Point being they know, so the best way to go is do it preboard then side it out post.Quote:
Humility out of the board was so weak. I switched it up to look like: 1 Vindicate, 1 Wrath, 2/1 Crypt/Relic, 3 Path to Exile, 2 Ajani, 3 Meddling Mage, 2 Crucible of Worlds.
How about Runed Halo as a one-of in the builds that run at least one Enlightened Tutor? It works very well against ANT, protecting against Tendrils, works against Dreadstill early against a Dreadnought, works against Goyf Sligh in a bunch of different ways but mainly against Price of Progress and Tarmogoyf. It also can stop Cabal Therapy if that becomes a likely problem.
It just seems like such an incredibly versatile temporary solution for what ails a deck that will win if it lives through the first half dozen turns.
Edit:just realized you can't name a token, although if a token is named the same as a card you have protection from it. Go figure.
This is a very viable option and i've played it at times.Quote:
Originally Posted by FoolofaTook
You can name shapeshifter and be protected from a shapeshifter token hitting you. Seems pretty good in the current meta.Quote:
Originally Posted by FoolofaTook
First, thanks for the input, I appreciate it.
It depends on how you classify cards. I see Vindicate as a flex slot instead of pure removal. That leaves me with 9/10/9 draw/counter/removal. Technically the only pure card-advantage type draw spells that most Landstill lists run are FoF, Standstill and Jace. Brainstorm and Top both provide selection above all else. So there’s a lot of gray area in terms of numbers.Quote:
Originally Posted by mossivo1986
I had Factory and was tapped out of blue. When his Chant drew Force, I would have needed a second Force to stop him. I think most combo players would make the same play. I also failed to mention he had cracked his LED in response to Ad Nauseam for black. If he hit a single Lotus Petal or Chrome Mox he wins. He flipped about 20 cards and didn’t see either. Bad luck is bad luck.Quote:
Incredibly odd. If your not applying pressure then he has nothing to worry about. Thats a key mistake by your combo player.
Tendrils of Agony. I had Force and EE, so I think this was the right call.Quote:
Naming?
He had ramped up his mana to build storm and Empty the Warrens. When he cracked LED (in response to the Wish), he discarded Ad Nauseam, so I think he was undecided which route he wanted go. I think Ad Nauseam trying to find Red Blast for Mage and then combo out would have been the better play. I think he burned 7 total.Quote:
He burns for a ton? Explain this more clearly.
I’m not denying I was lucky in game 2, although I would not go so far as to classify him as a bad player. I think he’s HammafistRoob on these boards, but I could be mistaken. Anyway, this is not a matchup I plan on winning regularly.Quote:
You win because you played a bad Ant player is what this sums up to. Rarely does Ant boot a game, let alone boot two games. It's either a sign of a bad player, or a badly designed model; either case leads me to believe you got a safety in football terms, aka your opponent kicked himself in the nuts. Be happy it rarely happens.
I disagree. Merfolk + Dreadnought is a winning game plan, and I don’t understand why more people don’t run that configuration. I mean, if I could make top 8 at a large Hadley event with it, then the deck must be good, right?Quote:
Overall i'm suprised to see these lists around. Merfolk with naught is naught exceptional. haha bad Pun. Anyways the same basic plan applies here. side in 4PTE win game.
I agree with you here. I even told him after the match that he should have done that, which is why I was able to report on his logic for not doing it.Quote:
Another match-up where your opponent kicks himself in the nuts. He should have killed Ajani with blast or weakened it. Knowing that your not running wish and your under 10 life in game 3 he should have played the long game. He still wins because you lack enough relevant life-gain.
I saw him flip a Fire/Ice in an earlier match, but I’m not sure if it was post-side. But this was one of the guys who created the deck (J.V.) so I’m not going to question his build.Quote:
He wasn't running fire/ice or lightning bolt in u/g/r dreadstill?
Agree.Quote:
double wrath isn't as bad as double humility. Take note peeps.
I almost never go indestructible. I did in the previous game to perma-block Goyf. Trust me, I understand that making soldiers=win.Quote:
If you continue to produce tokens you win. if you fuck up and sac for indestructable or remove for indestructable when he has more then 2 cards in hand then you lose.
A few times I was just waiting to draw white to play any combination of Humility, Wrath, Elspeth. When I say early I mean Landstill-early, which is like turns 5-6.Quote:
qua'?
Heh, yeah, I suppose that seems like a pretty weak conclusion. Obviously Spell Snare and EE are good too, but the more answers the better, especially considering how hard Counterbalance has boned me in the past while not running Vindicate.Quote:
You played maybe 1 counterbalance deck all day long and this is the summary of your tournament experience?
Agree. I was speaking from my situation. Maybe one day I’ll actually spend the $10 and get all the Wish targets to make a Wish build possible, but until then black splash = Vindicate for me, which means 2 or 3 black producing sources minimum. With a G splash for only EE and Grip I can go to 1-2 splash lands much easier.Quote:
Black doesn't make a bit of difference in how well you can build a mana-base. It's what your deck adopts as it's win cons/ utility spells in order to play its own personalized game. In your case it's vindicate. You naturally have to splash more because you have to run black more in the maindeck to suit this off color splash. In other models say wish models you run a much safer manabase because there is no need to splash black for anything but EE, Extirpate.
Yeah, I don’t know what I was thinking. That’s why I changed it up.Quote:
Humility in the maindeck is strongest because like citrus says and I completely agree. When opponents see SDT or Standstill they will unintentionally auto-side krosan grip in. In fact for proof I had one guy knowingly side in grip, which he said because I ran elspeth that I probobly ran solid enchantments to run alongside it to aid it into a removal "without seeing humility mind you." Point being they know, so the best way to go is do it preboard then side it out post.
I hope I was ably to provide a little more clarity.
On Runed Halo: I, too, have run it in E. Tutor builds, but I've found E. Tutor to often be too cute, and I have a hard time recalling a time when it was actually game-breaking. It's like a psuedo-C Wish but not as good because of the maindeck slots it requires, but it sure does provide a lot of options, especially post-board.
It would seem that if you are running a few silver bullets and a back-breaking card or two in your build that Enlightened Tutor might become more than just a cute option. It has card disadvantage built in, especially if you are not playing Counterbalance, however the ability to pull up a bomb shouldn't be taken lightly.Quote:
Originally Posted by Misplayer
After boarding it obviously becomes more valuable because then you know what plays well against the opponent and you also likely have an option in the sideboard that you want to get to as quickly as possible.
I kind of wonder about the relationship between Standstill, which everybody sees as a good to great inclusion in the deck, and Enlightened Tutor which is somewhat controversial. Standstill is a bit more situational and can sit dead in your hand in tightly contested turns however it provides card advantage when you can squeeze it in. Enlightened Tutor will almost never sit dead in your hand once you know what the opponent is trying to do and will almost always provide options in tightly contested turns and yet it is card disadvantage.
The question is how important is board position versus card advantage? And how do you calculate the value of a card that provides card advantage in favorable situations versus a card that assists in creating strong board position in middling to unfavorable positions?
Obviously Enlightened Tutor is not creating the strong board position it's just assisting in getting you there, so you can't look at it as a dominant card in it's own right.
I agree with your logic as it's what I've used in the past when creating some of my Landstill builds. I usually ran 1 E Tutor with 1 Crucible and 1 Humility, plus the ability to bring up EE, Standstill, Top and a plethora of SB options including Counterbalance, Shackles, Propaganda, Runed Halo, CoP: Red/Green, Pithing Needle, etc.
I also agree with your assessment of Standstill as up for debate, and in the past I've suggested moving towards a Elspeth/E Tutor based UWx control model. This does not preclude Standstill as a viable card for the deck type, it just is less focused on it. I'm more than willing to explore/discuss this potential archetype, be it in this thread or a separate one. My 2 cents.
PM me your ideas. I'm interested in discussing it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Misplayer
@Citrus-God
I typically make my land drops even without CoW. Besides, losing 1 life per fetchland adds up over time. =\
Usually they're running green for the Krosan Grip to deal with my CoW; I mean, I've seen a single Quicksand used with devastating effect against Merfolk and Goblins. xD
Yeah, it is true that Mutavaults are common nowadays, given their tribal-friendliness. Still, I feel CoW is an awkward fit into my playstyle, and Wasteland hurts my opening hand consistency.
I tend to make consistent land drops until things like Ports and other opposing Wastelands start trying to meddle with my mana base. Sometimes I keep CoW in my hand so that when I face an FoF pile of spells over lands, I just take spells and proceed to cast CoW on my main phase to replay those lands.Quote:
Originally Posted by Taishaku
CoW also makes FoF piles very interesting and psychological post board.
Use Academy Ruins to get it back. Even if you don't draw into it, at least CoW net you a land.Quote:
Usually they're running green for the Krosan Grip to deal with my CoW; I mean, I've seen a single Quicksand used with devastating effect against Merfolk and Goblins. xD
Wasteland can hurt your opening hand consistency, but opposing Mutavaults can somewhat harm your opening hand consistency as well if you arent allowed to drop Standstill. The best way to solve this problem is definitely run more lands.Quote:
Yeah, it is true that Mutavaults are common nowadays, given their tribal-friendliness. Still, I feel CoW is an awkward fit into my playstyle, and Wasteland hurts my opening hand consistency.
I took 4th in the 132 person Black Lotus event yesterday with this list. My only losses were to Merfolk once in the swiss and then another Merfolk deck in top 4. I did beat the Merfolk player that beat me in the swiss in the top 8.
4x STP
3x WOG
3x DOJ
2x Elspeth
1x Eternal Dragon
3x Vindicate
2x EE
2x Nev Disk
4x Brainstorm
3x Standstill
3x FOF
3x Counter
4x FOW
4x Tundra
3x Strand
3x Delta
1x Sea
1x Scrubland
2x Plains
2x Island
1x Swamp
2x Waste
1x Ruins
1x Tolaria West
3x Factory
SB
3x Spellsnare
3x Negate
2x Chant
4x Plague
2x Humility
1x Lilliana [random throw in at last minute]
Finally some results instead of theorycrafting.
Been considering Nev's disk as well, it looks like P deed without the commitment to green, how did it serve you?
And grats on the finish.