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Probably a variation of the man plan. or for the troll value. have definitely played a Jace or two in my board to turn two one and troll my opponents. also you can probably play karn relatively easily.Quote:
Originally Posted by gregtron
IMO they are waste of space, but you do what you want a lot of the times with those last few spots.
I run 2 Thoughtseize, 2 duress, 3 IoK main deck. I dislike Gprobe + Therapy in ANT. Feels too gimicky.Quote:
Originally Posted by aaronm678
This is my current build, I'm pretty happy with it:
2 Thoughtseize
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Duress
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Past in Flames
2 Grim Tutor
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Ponder
3 Preordain
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Dark Ritual
1 Ad Nauseam
4 Brainstorm
1 Chain of Vapor
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
2 Island
2 Swamp
4 Polluted Delta
1 Marsh Flats
2 Scalding Tarn
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Misty Rainforest
//board
4 Dark Confidant
4 Xantid Swarm
1 Tropical Island
1 Empty The Warrens
2 Energy Flux
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Wipe Away
1 Slaughter Pact
IMO, IoK isn't bad, cause it hits Thalia.
I board out most of my discard and AN, for 4 Bobs + 4 xantid vs. Stoneblade/Blue decks.
Have you had trouble against Maverick? Your SB looks pretty weak if they ever land a dude (I usually like to have at least 5 bounce/removal, as it seems like postboard they just have infinite hate bears).Quote:
Originally Posted by TheRedBaron
Also -- do you think Xantid is worth the strain on the mana base? I found it helps a lot in the blue matchups I don't need specific sideboard cards for -- durdly blue decks like Stoneblade/Landstill/whatnot --but it's pretty bad in matchups that I really want some specific sideboard cards for (namely RUG). I ended up cutting them for additional discard spells, as those are good against RUG, and I've found myself boarding them in quite a few matchups (occasionally going to 10-11 discard spells, but often it's stuff like switching Duress for IoK against Maverick).
The list I'm currently playing:
Maindeck:
1x Ad Nauseam
1x Tendrils of agony
1x Past in flames
4x Gitaxian Probe
4x Duress
3x Cabal Therapy
4x Ponder
4x Brainstorm
4x Infernal tutor
3x Burning Wish
4x Lotus Petal
4x Lion's Eye Diamond
4x Dark Ritual
4x Cabal Ritual
2x Underground sea
1x Volcanic Island
1x Badlands
1x Swamp
1x Island
4x Polluted delta
3x Scalding Tarn
2x Bloodstained Mire
Sideboard:
1x Empty the warrens
1x Ill-gotten gains
1x Tendrils of Agony
1x Past in Flames
1x Meltdown
1x Pyroclasm
1x Virtue's Ruin
1x Deathmark
1x Cabal Therapy
2x Extirpate
1x Wipe away
3x Chain of Vapor
This list is awesome, it's really explosive, gitaxians + therapy is the start you'll always want, with a possible 2x1, and filling your graveyard so the cabal rituals have threshold. Inquisition is bad, just for the fact that it doesn't hit fow.. Thoughtseizes are good, but for the moment 4 duress + 3 therapy are enough (the 4th therapy is in the side for bw).
The side is very versatile thanks to the burning wish with game1 answers to maverick, affinity, and random cratures decks, and the toolbox for the combo.
Chain of vapor is the best bouncer, so 3 of them, and a wipe away for counterbalance.
I'm not sure about the extirpates, I'm starting to think that they don't fit in this deck..
So, I am going to be playing UB ANT at the StarCityGames 5K at Origins. Im just trying to decide between splashing red or not. It would be for 1x Past in Flames mainboard and 1x Empty the Warrens in the board. Is that reasonable enough or should it be strictly UB?\
Honestly, I've played with Past In Flames and a single Empty the Warrens without "splashing" anything. With 4 Lotus Petal and 4 LED, a single red mana is easy to come by. Now, that doesn't mean that I don't still play a single Volcanic Island, but that's more to give me a sense of security than because I've ever really found it necessary.
Do you guys prefer the 4 BW/3 IT, 1 IT side split or the 4 IT /3 BW? I am testing the former configuration after having played the latter for a long time. It opens up a few more lines and keeps the density the same in the main deck.
The AN line becomes a little worse (only 3 IT main).
I'v been trying 4 I.T. 3 B.W. main and 1Grim Tutor side.
Edit:
Sloshthedark,Having to B.W. for a Tutor is not always needed. I've found it's better to keep the main at its fastest.When going off with threshhold Cabal Rituals,LED and Dark Rituals the 3rd mana doesn't matter that much.
Don't get me wrong do what you wish this is just from my Exp.
Isn't 3IT 3BW 1GT // 1IT side better then? BW-> GT-> ? is really manaintensive (and nearly unplayable into PiF without other tutor)Quote:
Originally Posted by MTG Junkie
just responded to our very lackadaisical pm exchange. SO Sorry!Quote:
Originally Posted by Sloshthedark
i should probably set up email notices.
I played an almost identical 75 today to a top 2 split at a local 5 round event (Stomping Grounds in Warminster, Pa, US).Quote:
Originally Posted by guillemnicolau
I had infest over Virtue's ruin, a second deathmark over a chain of vapor, and an echoing truth over the 2nd chain. My main was identical -1fetch +1 island.
This list is insane. IGG in the board won me a bunch of games where PiF wouldn't have. The Extirpate slots are awkward, I'm not really sure what I want them to be though.
I'm also do not have a good handle on sideboarding. Often I board out a ponder or probe or Petal if the game is going to drag out, or duress against the hate bear decks.
I think I started with a list like yours, but a friend of mine reminded me that drawing a land full of black spells and an island is the worst, so I changed an island for a fetch.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tammit67
I also think that the extirpates aren't good enough, but they are really needed for the reanimator matchup, without them it's too hard.
When sideboarding I also do it like this, against control I usually do:
-1 gitaxian
-1 therapy
-1 ponder
-1 petal
+2 chain of vapor
+2 wipe away (counterbalance has increased it's presence in my meta, so amb currently playing 2 wipes and 2 chains)
I can't see Extirpate not being good enough, it's one of my favorite cards in the board ever, I bring one in if I won G1 just to see their hate in every match-up, ruins other combo and is decent vs. Counterbalance/snap control
Can you see a Pithing Needle (possible 3-of?) as an universal SB answer to Griselbrand and SDT powered decks?
pithing needle doesn't awnser dredge nor does it truly stop reanimator, you also can't bring it in against the mirror to stop them from using pif.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sloshthedark
obv I'm not suggesting using them instead of Extirpates...Quote:
Originally Posted by Rekk
sorry for the confusion then,Quote:
Originally Posted by Sloshthedark
in the grim tutor build it is a possibility, but as for the burning wish version i don't know were one would find room. as well as the concern of it not doing that much outside of stoping sneak attack and griss in one matchup and top in a less popular matchup.
Hey guys! On Sunday it's the gp trial for Ghent that will give a ticket and i'll attend with ANT probably.. i'd like your opinions about the list (UBW) i'm tesing lately.. the meta consists of many RUG and Mavericks and some UW and espers and others like reanimator and maybe a sneak ans dhow..
1 Ad nauseam
4 dark ritual
4 brainstorm
4 cabal ritual
1 chain of vapor
4 silence
4 duress
4 ponder
4 infernal tutor
1 tendrils
3 preordain
1 ill gotten gains
4 LED
4 petals
2 SDT
1 karakas
2 underground sea
1 tundra
1 scrubland
1 swamp
1 plains
2 island
3 polluted delta
1 flooded strand
2 marsh flats
sb
2 extirpate
1 karakas
1 virtue's Ruin
3 Dread of Night
1 wipe away
1 chain of vapor
2 tendrils
2 defence grid
2 disfigure
the reasons if the white is chan effects and karakas which can win games with reanimator and sneak and show and also bounces thalia and teeg that's why i maindeck a CoV main too. I decided to split the discard/chants ad because i don't play R i don't play Past in flames and play IGG.. The SDTs are because of many Tempo decks i'll face and i'd love to have them althought the many other cantrips..
Any ideas would be welcomed! ;)
Just copy/pasting ideas from DDFT won't be good. If you want to play SDT to improve tempo decks, then you need an engine that will allow you to go off in the late game for that SDT to be good. That means you need to play past in flames since it is far better than IGG agaisnt blue.
CoV is a bad main deck card when there is no way to tutor for it. You'll loose much more games because of it than win game ones because of it.
Karakas is nice in Doomsday as the 18th land. Here as a 15th land that's not a good idea. With so few lands you really want to maximize possibilities of either going off early or start cantripping on turn one. Also you can't tutor for it unlike DD.
Karakas is also less good now because of griselbrand.
You're right i took some ideas like karakas from DDFT i'm playing and i tried to place it in ANT.. At my ANT lists i always had a CoV and a SDT main and i thought a second SDT would be good against tempo and control as far as i know from playing fetchland tendrils..
To tell you the truth as far as i have tested this is worst than DDFT which was in my mind to play but i wasn't sure :/
About karakas you are right too that makes the manabase much worse but at the testing it helped me a lot when i got it against maverick especially and reanimator without Griselbrand..
thanks for the advice lejay ;)
If it helped you a lot against maverick essentially then it's sideboard material.
Reanimator without griselbrand isn't valid consideration when deckbuilding.
I've been having 3 inquisitions in the board for weeks now, to board in against g/w and honestly i don't really think they do much of anything. i have never grabbed a thalia out of someones hand nor a green sun. the two deathmarks have been amazing though
IoK was very good to me while I was running TES. I find there is a turn or two between when we can rip it out of their hand before they play it and when we are actually looking to go off. TES seems to be able to just kill the turn after IoK whiffs, this not so easily IMOQuote:
Originally Posted by Rekk
I've been debating cutting the inqs and putting in two chrome moxs and another infest. which is a weird combiniation considering the chrome mox are to use ad nause and having another infest makes ad nas worse.
their would be two infest in hte board, on to wish for the other to bring in. maybe it would be a split between virtue's ruin and an infest
I'm also playing the Burning Wish list.
I Still don't know what I want the 3 flex spots in the board to be though.
Does anyone have a handle on the show and tell matchup? i haven't had too much experience playing it.
Against GW you have to be really fast, trying to rip his hand is not gonna be useful, cause unless you kill him in the same turn, he'll probably draw a thalia, or a GSZ for gaddock, or choke, or mindbreak trap, or surgical extraction, or ooze to f**k your graveyard... I play a massacre in the board (burning wish list), and once I fetched it, he sacrificed his only plains with his reliquary... I recommend 3 chain of vapor in the side, because thalia and choke are not easy to take off with echoing truths or wipe aways.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rekk
just kill him on turn 1 or 2, or you're probably gonna have to face too much hate.
Quote:
Originally Posted by guillemnicolau
In that case wouldn't boarding in 2 chrome mox be a better idea then 3 chain of vapors
my board is at the moment
3 exterpate
3 inquistion
1 infest
2 deathmark
1 chain
2 echoing truth
1 pif
1 tendrils
1 empty
also im at 2 burning wishes right now and im debating cutting down to 2 preordains to up the burning wish count.
You burning wished for massacre, then gave him priority?Quote:
Originally Posted by guillemnicolau
Greetings ANT players. Im in the process of building a tendrils deck and trying to make my decision on what deck. Currently im leaning towards doomsday but I wanted to ask dedicated ANT players your thoughts on doomsday and the fundamental differences between ANT and DDFT, i.e. why no DD in ANT and kill conditions main vs side only. Thanks in advance.
ANT and DD are alike in some ways. They both operate on a fetchland manabase making their cantrips alot stronger than in TES. This is even more true for DD as it runs Tops. They can also both run Chant-effects, Discard-effects or green protection spells to protect their combo. ANT has a harder time playing more than 3 colors though, without rainbow lands like TES and only 15-16 lands (Ari played 17 with 5 basics, but I consider that inferior) compared to the 17-19 in DDFT.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tombstalker
ANT, just like TES, relies mainly on tutors to fetch the couple of engines in the deck, this used to be Infernal Tutor and Mystical Tutor. Now Infernal Tutor is usually supplemented by Grim Tutor or Burning Wish. Doomsday runs more bombs (doomsday itself) and less tutors to find those bombs.
Infernal Tutor and Doomsday are not the greatest friends; you cannot use most of your cantrips to draw into the pile as IT requires hellbent. The only cantrip that does work is Top, which is not the greatest card with Ad Nauseam as Top is slow by nature and Ad Nauseam can't wait too long.
Doomsday lists have some advantages over ANT. The only 'dead' card they run main is a single Ideas Unbound/Meditate which is sometimes pretty decent anyways. ANT without red has to run Tendrils and IGG/PiF main deck, and they're not cards you usually want to draw. UBr ANT doesn't have this issue as much though.
Doomsday is also a win condition that doesn't need 10-15 life or the graveyard to win, unlike the engines in ANT. One thing that should be noted is that the current GY hate of choice, Surgical Extraction, is also a real annoying card for Doomsday when played correctly.
Another plus for Doomsday is the ability to play around hate better. Cards such as Gaddock Teeg are really not that scary for DD. This is especially true for versions that play red for wish (goes for both ANT and DD).
ANT however, does have some advantages over DD. It's faster for one; being able to outrace aggro decks much easier. If you check DDFT tournament reports you'll notice that a fair amount of its losses are against aggro and not against blue decks. Dredge, to name one deck, is a much better MU for ANT than it is for DD.
It is also much easier to play than DD. While some say this is not an argument and one should simply put more time towards learning their deck, I'd say it is. When playing a GP you might play 8 rounds on Friday in the trials, have a bad sleep, play 6-9 rounds on Saturday, hardly sleep again and then have another full day to play on Sunday. Being able to play ANT while braindead is much easier than it would be for DDFT where mistakes are punished more severely.
UBw ANT also has the advantage of sideboard space compared to UBr ANT and all modern DDFT lists.
There are different forms of hybrids as well. First of all there's ANT decks with Tops and 1 DD (usually more DD's sb along with the Emrakul package). It can be done in straight UB(w) lists to simple provide the much needed extra business after 4 IT, 1 AdN. It can also be done in lists with both IT and BW (Citanul's list f.e. although I'd cut the MD Tendrils there).
There are also Infernal/Doomsday 'hybrids' which don't play Ad Nauseam. These lists run the full 4 Doomsday and supplement it by 3-4 Infernal Tutor. This facilitates an alternative kill in IGG to race aggro while still being a Doomsday deck. These lists often splash green for the sideboard (Krosan Grip, Carpet of Flowers, Xantid Swarm and possibly Autumn's Veil). This version is known as "the german list".
The biggest issue for ANT right now is probably Maverick, which despite our speed, is quite annoying since Thalia got printed. Counterbalance (without wastelands) is a good MU for DDFT and pretty terrible for UBw ANT. UB/UBr/UBg ANT are decent against it because of their discard + speed.
RUG is doable, but not positive, for both decks assuming you play white (which I still prefer in both ANT and Doomsday). Sneaky Show is favorable for ANT if they don't sb hate, but they usually do. Stoneblade is favorable for both decks. Storm decks are fine MU's for both; you both have chants, DDFT has top and ANT has EoT Ad Nauseam.
Reanimate is annoying for both decks but probably better for ANT since it actually has the space to board something against it (in GP Amsterdam I boarded 3 Extirpate, 2 Path to Exile, 1 Chain of Vapor I think). Dredge, with its current speed, seems quite a bit better for ANT than for DDFT.
Aggro decks without hate are alot easier for ANT than DDFT.
Thanks man your reply was very in depth and informative, still trying to wrap my brain around this stuff, storm combo feels like archmage level magic.
I like Citanuls list so maybe that could be a place to start, although I think I would prefer discards to chants, at least for my local meta which is heavy on dredge, reanimator, maverick, sneak and show and even some goblins, not much combo mirrors. So with that being said would you mind giving an example UBr list that incorporates the speed of ANT (and lower difficulty) with the option of DD and possibly BW? Or at least something that would fair well against the decks I have mentioned? In testing I have loved casting doomsday, whereas I havent been able to get IT to work as well in the mix, makes sense now that youve stated why they dont play well together. Anyway thanks again.
Is this just because of the Shelldock Emrakul plan? Admittedly, I was playtesting against a deck with 3 wastelands, but for the life of me, I couldn't find a dark ritual deck with an even 30% matchup here.Quote:
Originally Posted by JamieW89
Also, from my experience, BUr and BUw ANT decks have similar RUG matchups (not amazing, but certainly very winable if they don't bring in counterbalance- and the heavily Maverick metagamed versions that were popular at the SCGs for a while are very good matchups.
OK so I think ive settled on a list but before ordering the last few pieces im missing I was hoping you guys could give me some critique.
(lands currently available)
4 scalding tarn
4 polluted delta
3 bloodstained mire
2 underground sea
1 badlands
1 island
1 swamp
4 LED
4 dark ritual
4 lotus petal
1 rain of filth
4 SDT
4 brainstorm
4 ponder
1 gitaxian probe
4 duress
3 thoughtseize
3 infernal tutor
3 burning wish
1 ad nauseam
1 doomsday
1 ideas unbound
1 chain of vapor
1 tendrils of agony
Sideboard 15
3 doomsday
1 slaughter pact
1 meltdown
1 deathmark
1 virtue's ruin
1 massacre
1 ill gotten gains
1 infernal tutor
1 infernal contract
1 empty the warrens
1 tendrils of agony
1 emrakul
1 shelldock isle
Thoughts?
why are you choosing doomsday over past in flames. also wouldn't this question be better asked in the ddft thread (which it seems like this deck is geared towards)Quote:
Originally Posted by Tombstalker
To be honest I havent really tested with PiF. My reasoning is having both PiF and DD main is greedy so I just picked one. The reason I choose DD, besides the fact that I just like the card, is that its black and only costs 3. In addition I considered grave hate and how early I may cast it might mean not enough cards/options in my grave. These factors make DD seem more attractive to me than needing 1 more mana and red with limited options in the yard to choose from. I am a novice at best with this deck though so any insight is appreciated.Quote:
why are you choosing doomsday over past in flames. also wouldn't this question be better asked in the ddft thread (which it seems like this deck is geared towards)
As for where to post this, I was not sure if this deck qualifies as DDFT or ANT or some hybrid of the two.
Tombstalker's list certainly does not belong to DDFT thread, as he plays ANT with additional option of doomsdaying, not the other way around (of course it's a hybrid, but there are no hybrid thread here). By the way I advise adding cabal rituals and changing Ideas Unbound to Meditate.
It seems like you need some more fast mana - you can pretty easily cut gitaxian probe, rain of filth, and a duress effect for Cabal Rituals (I get that probe and Rain make doomsday much easier, but you probably shouldn't be going for DDay with this list unless you have a SDT out, which makes probe kinda unnecessary, and I've never been a huge fan of Rain of Filth.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tombstalker
Also, I don't particularly like IT in the sideboard- it takes a pretty obscene amount of mana to Wish for it into anything productive, and at that point you could probably win using some other method. Also, its your best maindeck card, its kind of counterproductive to run it in the SB.
Thanks for the suggestions, I think I will be adding a couple cabal rituals since I have needed more fast mana in testing. I havent learned any piles for meditate yet so not sure I can make that change. Also I was under the impression that IU is better when playing adN main.
Thanks also for the insight on IT in the board, seemed like a good way to loop back into anything and but I definitely see your point, so should I increase IT to 4-of?
Is it ok to play sensei's top in ANT (or TNT)? Say in place of preordain. If so is the full 4 ok or only 1-2?
Leave the ST in doomsday. ANT is about disrupting turn 1 and 2 and going off asap. You have to race mother of runes/hatebears and do not want to give RUG too many draw steps. Sinking 2 mana to hit a land drop is not where this deck wants to be.