i think the merfolk would stumble down on his seat when he see grim lavamancer resolved in play =)
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i think the merfolk would stumble down on his seat when he see grim lavamancer resolved in play =)
I played Cat Sligh with 3 Mental Misstep maindecked last night at our local store, so I figured I'd post some thoughts here since the list can play similar to faster Zoo lists.
On MM, I drew it three times in the 14 games I played. I topdecked it against UGr Lavamancer/Trinket Mage tempo when I had the game in the bag pretty much already, so that didn't say much either way. Had one in an opener against Belcher where she just went Grant into SSG into Desperate Ritual, into Belcher things. Had one in an opener against The Gate, and used it on his T1 Duress, only for it to get misstepped back.
I played against Dredge and Aggro Loam on the night as well, so I wouldn't have minded seeing one in 3 1/2(bad against belcher sometimes) out of the 5 matchups. I would say the experiment is inconclusive at this moment, leaning a little towards running 0 over 2-3, but I will try 3 again next time I run this/Fast Zoo out. The only suggestion I would offer right now is not to run 4, because you still have to draw guys and burn and stuff. It's not a card that is magically going to swing unfavorable matchups to our end, or make us immune to Plow/Bolt/Path.
Against the tempo deck with MM, it slowed me down a little but wasn't a back breaker. I just overload them with one drops. They can't counter all of them. I can drop a goyf at any moment, too.
Sulfuric Vortex is still gold. It drew immediate attention from the slower midrange decks I played against, and won the times where it was unanswered.
Bonus random thought:
In a meta like the last SCG where Merfolk/TA/other blue things are rampant at the moment because of Misstep, would it be wise to give Belcher a little more respect in the sideboard in the form of an efficient way to deal with ETW, etc? More Mindbreak Traps? Maybe a Ratchet Bomb/Powder Keg in an Enlightened Tutor package? The thought would be some people would put down TES/ANT until a new list is conceived to fight heavy counter decks, or until the metagame shifts. Belcher, on the other hand, can go from 0-2 mana without too much trouble. But then you would be playing Belcher against loads of blue still. Meh.
This. MM is the new toy on the block right now and people want to use it every chance they can. Although some people will never grow up from countering everything they can counter, the same way some people will always immediately use a wasteland that they draw regardless of game state.Quote:
Originally Posted by RaNDoMxGeSTuReS
The Zoo listing I'm running is relatively light on 1-drops but it preys on the absence of counterbalance and Krosan Grip (I'm serious, the card went from being ubiquitous in green decks to hardly seeing any play) with a mid-Zoo strategy. Combo isn't particularly prevalent right now, so I'm running a listing with more mid-game card advantage
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Grim Lavamancer
2 Figure of Destiny
3 Tarmogoyf
2 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Lightning Helix
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Fire/Ice
3 Isochron Scepter
1 Basilisk Collar
1 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Windswept Heath
2 Arid Mesa
2 Wooded Foothills
3 Plateau
3 Taiga
1 Savannah
1 Volcanic Island
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Mountain
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Wasteland
I was just running 20 lands, but that 21st land goes a long way. I miss the 4th goyf though. Goyf is always a good threat.
Sorry, but this isn't zoo.Quote:
Originally Posted by SpikeyMikey
Interesting list. I'm new to zoo, so I have a couple questions:Quote:
Originally Posted by Ziveeman
This list has 61 cards. What is likely the weakest card?
Only 3 Tarmogoyf seems sub-optimal but is it really?
How good is Noble Hierarch in zoo?
Thanks guys. I was thinking that maybe one Knight should be cut for the 4th goyf, but I was never really sure.
Noble Hierarch seems like it would be okay for the exalt trigger and for ramp if you're playing big zoo, but overall seems a bit underwhelming since you want your first turn threats to be nacatls, apes, lions that you can start swinging with by turn 2.
3 Goyf really is sub optimal. The lowest zoo should run is 4, there's simply no more efficient two drop to play. Some decks that have more lavamancers might cut a goyf due to synergy, but goyf is a bigger threat against more decks.
when you're playing hierarch and gsz only running 3 goyfs is perfectly fine.
Anyone see David Price's list from the SCG Louisville Open Top 16?
http://sales.starcitygames.com/deckd...p?DeckID=38404
Interesting sideboard...does he just scoop it up to combo, dredge, etc, and hope to play against blue decks all day, or is there something I'm missing?
Also, how do you guys feel about replacing Krosan Grip with Thrun in the sideboard? I feel like Counterbalance is rapidly losing ground in favor of Landstill, and Thrun is effective against both strategies while Grip only hits Countertop.
You sir, are mistaken.Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlatan
From the opening post:
"R/G/W Zoo is just like it sounds, it is a savagely fast aggro deck that takes advantage of the most efficient and cost effective red/green/white spells in the game."
SpikeyMikey's list screams efficient beaters with reach. The only odd thing about it is running Fire/Ice and single Volcanic Island to cast Ice. Tapping Tarmgoyf seems better than Plowing it.
THINK BEFORE YOU POST!
@ SpikeyMikey - I like your list, but I'm not sold on Basilisk Collar. I think a 2nd Jitte or SoFI might work better - or something that grants trample. Collar is too cute with Grim Lavamancer, but often times Lavamancer is more than sufficient to clear the path for your 1drop beaters.
I do dig the Figures of Destiny tho. It's always fun to bring back old cards.
Who would be playing combo in this environment? Literally every single deck in the top 8 played 4x Force of Will, 4x Mental Misstep, 4x Thoughtseize or 4x Hymn to Tourach. All played at least 2 of those and some played all 4 of those.Quote:
Originally Posted by Capt4in
So there's a tournament next week and I thought I'd bring the following:
//Lands
3 Plateau
2 Taiga
1 Savannah
1 Plains
1 Mountain
1 Forest
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Arid Mesa
2 Windswept Heath
2 Wasteland
//Creatures
4 Steppe Lynx
4 Wild Nacatl
2 Grim Lavamancer
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Knight of the Reliquary
//Instants
4 Path to Exile
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
3 Price of Progress
//Sorceries
2 Green Sun's Zenith
//Enchantments
1 Sylvan Library
//Sideboard
1 Karakas
2 Ethersworn Cannonist
2 Gaddock Teeg
2 Krosan Grip
3 Choke
2 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Relic of Progenitus
This time round, I want to play a more traditional Zoo build. The metagame is varied. I'd say it's a bit skewed towards combo and control with not so much tribal. Sounds difficult for Zoo, but I reckon it's not a bad choice.
Things that I'd specifically appreciate input on are: The number of KotR, GSZ, Sylvan Library main as well the sideboard. The two Jittes are supposed to help against Goblins and Elves if I happen to run into them. I could replace them with something else, but I don't with what.
Sideboarding plans will follow.
Hi guys,
I'll show you my recent experiment in big zoo.
I'm from Italy so the meta it's a bit different, but also there the most played Tier1 are TA, GW Maverik, Landstill and Merfolk.
So, 'cause I think that the level of the players is grow up in the last 2 years, I think that to overtake a tournament you had to be a pro player or to bring some innovation in a solid deck.
So I started to test this list:
4 wild nacatl
3 noble hierarch
3 grim lavamancer
4 tarmogoyf
3 qasali pridemage
4 knight of the reliquary
1 rafiq of the many
4 swords to plowshares
4 lightning bolt
3 lightning helix
3 green sun's zenith
2 elspeth, knight errant
1 forest
1 plain
1 karakas
3 taiga
2 plateau
1 savannah
1 volcanic island
4 windswepth heath
4 wooded foothills
2 wasteland
1 horizon canopy
SB:
3 choke
3 krosan grip
3 ethersworn canonist
2 gaddock teeg
1 bajuga bog
2 faerie macabre
1 path to exile
So, I feel really well with rafiq, 'cause it give me a second hard closure insted of elspeth. It's not hard to cast due to the mono volcanic island and to noble hierach and it's not so hardly fetching with green sun's zenith.
So what do you think about it?
Tx
Quote:
Originally Posted by kunta
The list looks pretty good, but when is Rafiq going to be better than another Elspeth? The mana seems like an issue, so I would rather do a Terravore. He has been a really good finisher for me.
Here is the list I've been working with lately, I just have a few questions for some of the more seasoned players:
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Taiga
3 Savannah
3 Plateau
3 Windswept Heath
4 Arid Mesa
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Mountain
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Path to Exile
4 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Price of Progress
2 Sylvan Library
2 Fireblast
2 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Grim Lavamancer
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Karakas
SB: 2 Krosan Grip
SB: 2 Volcanic Fallout
SB: 1 Thrun, the Last Troll
SB: 4 Enlightened Tutor
SB: 1 Null Rod
SB: 1 Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 1 Dueling Grounds
SB: 1 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
SB: 1 Pyrostatic Pillar
Obviously the biggest departure is the tutor board, which I could use some advice on. So far in testing it's been pretty good, but I want to make sure I have the right enchantments to cover a large and diverse meta like a SCG open. There are a few cards that I'm a bit unsure about though:
Pyrostatic Pillar: This seems like it could be decent against storm combo/belcher and really bad for Elves, but also affects my entire deck too, not sure if the damage I would take would be enough to make it essentially a break-even card against storm or not.
Wheel of Sun and Moon: I don't know if one slot is really effective against dredge or not, although Teeg can stop Dread Return and Fallout + Dueling Grounds makes short work of Zombies. This seemed like the most effective single spell in our colors.
Volcanic Fallout: I asked about this in regards to Merfolk and was told that it isn't really needed in that matchup, but I feel like it has a lot of utility in other matchups (Elves, Goblins, anything with EtW, Zombie Tokens, etc). If I'm way off base here, let me know.
Thrun: Again I don't know that one of this guy is enough to swing a game against CB or TA, and I don't know if he should be in the SB or the main. My initial thought is that I'd rather have Teeg main to have a better game 1 chance against NO or storm, since the deck doesn't roll over nearly as easily to heavy counters as it does to combo.
Other cards I thought about including in the board inlcude Choke, Serenity, SoFI...any other suggestions are welcome. I'm also thinking of cutting one or both Grips for Vexing Shushers.
As far as the main deck goes, I was considering Terravore, either as a 1-of (-1 KotR) or a 2-of (Teeg/Qasali + KotR). Just not sure how effective he is without Wastes and with Lavamancer chewing through the yard. Elspeth is also something I thought about, but I would want 2 minimum, and I'm not sure what I would cut.
Finally (sorry for this dragging on so long), is there a more current matchup analysis than what's in the first post? Specifically I'm interested in MUC, TA, Junk, Bant and the BUG Team-whatever.
Edit: Completely forgot to mention O-Ring as a possible SB slot, Ensnaring Bridge too, although I think that might be another that hurts as much as it helps.
@ list above: Since you're running 4 KotR and 2 Green Sun's Zenith, I guess an additional land wouldn't hurt. I count 20 as it is. Also, I wouldn't be comfortable with running only 7 one-drops in Zoo. Your call obviously.
Yep, I was thinking just about that today. It had a lower casting cost and it doesn't need the blue mana...so I could replace the volcanic island with a plateau....maybe I'll use terravore, cause the effect it's the same of rafiq. The only weak point of a list without rafiq is that I had no broken creatures that are not depending from graveyard...and post side this will be a problem if oppont had in SB something like relic of progenits or bajuga bog...terravore will die, kotr will be a simple 2/2 and tarmo is a stupid 0/1...But this is the pleasure of this game!!!Quote:
Originally Posted by OurSerratedDust
How do you guys feel about the Team America matchup?
I've personally never had a problem with them, but apparently, Zoo on the SCG Open circuit has a <50% matchup against Team America, which I find very surprising. I would imagine that the builds that run only 20 lands and more Steppe Lynxes are more vulnerable to their mana denial package though.
If the Team America knows what they're doing, they're definitely favoured, but not much. Most of the matches in my team's testing sessions went 2-1 for Team America. Most of the cards in that deck are strong against Zoo, and Pernicious Deed can just kill you. The easiest way to win against Team America is to draw multiple Wastelands, they're really strong when coming from Zoo.
Apart from that, the faster your deck is, the better positioned you are against the newer, slow builds.
This is Jesse Hatfield's list from the GP:
3 Arid Mesa
1 Forest
4 Horizon Canopy
1 Mountain
1 Plains
3 Plateau
1 Savannah
2 Taiga
3 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills
23 lands
4 Grim Lavamancer
2 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Steppe Lynx
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Wild Nacatl
22 creatures
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Path to Exile
3 Sylvan Library
15 other spells
Sideboard
2 Krosan Grip
2 Null Rod
4 Price of Progress
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Swords to Plowshares
2 Thrun, the Last Troll
2 Umezawa's Jitte
15 sideboard cards
Thoughts?
A zoo deck built for a GP. It's consistent and don't afraid of a room full of combo (because it's not 2010 anymore)
There's also another Cat-Zoo list that actually made Top 8 at the GP by John Kubilis:
Main Deck
60 cards
4 Arid Mesa
1 Forest
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Karakas
1 Mountain
1 Plains
2 Plateau
1 Savannah
3 Taiga
3 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills
22 lands
2 Gaddock Teeg
3 Grim Lavamancer
2 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Steppe Lynx
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Wild Nacatl
23 creatures
2 Chain Lightning
1 Fireblast
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Path to Exile
2 Price of Progress
2 Sylvan Library
15 other spells
Sideboard
3 Choke
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Krosan Grip
2 Price of Progress
1 Relic of Progenitus
2 Swords to Plowshares
2 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Umezawa's Jitte
15 sideboard cards
I think the 3x Choke in the sideboard is really strong in the current meta. Choke + Teeg + Thrun, he meta-gamed well for blue-based control.
Seems nice and a lot like Alix Hatfields from ages away with some minor changes, most of them in the sideboard. Jesse's list with no sideboard hate at all for Dredge is kinda bold and the other list doesnt have that much gy hate either. Also, no sb hate for combo.
I actually thought that time of Steppe Lynx is over, but looks like cat zoo did better than big zoo.. anyways, I'm happy that these results should show that zoo is far away from being dead even through a lot of people said that due to Mental Misstep Zoo cannot be played anymore.
Has anyone of you tried mental misstep in your zoo decklists? I tried it out a bit with my friend and.. it didn't feel so amazing in zoo. The only times I lost were due to drawing mental missteps instead of.. anything else.
Also, my metagame is FULL of dredge. How do you prepare for a metagame full of dredge, 3x tormod just doesn't cut it. 4 Tormod, 2 Gaddock and faerie macabre? Any suggestions?
Wheel of sun and moon is good againts dredge, reanimator,etc... and moreover can be usefull againts painters, we can enchant ourself :).
And surgical extraction is an option. Paying two life doesn't really matter when they are usually going to alpha strike/clock you with a fatty. It has a surprise effect like Mindbreak Trap did.
Just got back from GP Providence where I played Cat Zoo to 6-3 day 1, dropping 3 rounds in a row to end my day 2 hopes. Finished 171st place overall.
Round 1-3: byes
Round 4: win vs. Next Level Thresh
Round 5: win vs. 4 color Landstill
Round 6: win vs. Zoo mirror
Round 7: loss vs. Martin Juza playing CFB Mystic Batterskull
Round 8: loss vs. Rock
Round 9: loss vs. Nightmare playing CFB Mystic Batterskull
Teeg in main: excellent
Not playing price of progress: probably a mistake.
Highlight: playing Nightmare in Round 9
Lowlight: punting Games 1 and 3 of that match. I played so terrible...
I'll probably write a tournament report later. It was definitely a great weekend.
Here is the list I played at the GP, i'm not going to go into much detail here since I wrote a report over in the tournament report section:
3 Taiga
3 Plateau
1 Savannah
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Mountain
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Windswept Heath
2 Arid Mesa
2 Horizon canopy
4 Goyf
4 Wild Nacatal
4 Pride Mage
4 Knight of the Reliquary
2 stone forge mystic
1 Terrovore
2 Grim Lava Mancer
4 Lightning bolt
4 Path to Exile
2 Price of Progress
2 Lightning Helix
2 Sylvan Library
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Jitte
1 Basilisk Collar
SB
3 Choke
2 Null Rod
1 Jitte
1 Batterskull
2 Krosin Grip
2 Thrun the Last Troll
1 Mystic Enforcer
1 Bajuka Bog
2 Swords to plow shares
I was impressred with the list and will continue to play a list like this in the upcoming SCG events. Stoneforge is really good right now esspecially against other stoneforge decks because you have more creatures to equip to.
That list is interesting no noble hierarch while looking as Big Zoo
As long as you're smart with your land choices (it's not as hard to play around wasteland when you only play wild nacatal as "land matters" creatures) then you should be fine. I did want to play noble, but I just wanted everyone of my cards to do something at all points in the game, and stoneforge does that better than noble. plus equipment help win the goyf war also. I would like to fit an elspeth in there somewhere, but ultimatly Terravore made the cut instead and I won atleast two games because of his trample ability card.
While i'm on the wasteland topic, I found it better to just play more lands rather than to play around wasteland a better plan. I only play 10 fetches as apposed to 12 and 22 lands total. I'd even bate a wasteland by going turn one forest nacatal into platue. They would wasteland and i'd just play more lands.
With Team America being big in the meta, why are decks running fire and ice over feast and famine? At the least I would think run it in the sideboard. Switch it up depending on your matchup colors. The feast is also great. Spend your first main playing burn and removal to make sure you can swing through, then spend the new mana to drop your creatures.
It's really hard to agrue either way. Fire&Ice lets you draw a card and deal 2 which is huge. F&F blocks all black removal while getting through goyfs and knights. The only issue Ihave with F&F is zoo dunes their hand early. Usually you don't have more than two spells to play in a turn by the time you have a guy in play already, have casted the sword, and equiped it to something. The other sword I did consider, however, is sword of light and shadow. It dodged STP and black removal and gets dudes back from the grave who have been MM or forced. The gaining 2 life is pretty pointless though.
I guess it all comes down to personal intrest. I will be considering all my option when I go to SCG Baltimore.
Well, would it be worth the SB slot to main on and SB the other and switch out? The spot people seem to reserve for jitte #2 is for the aggro matches, which can be overcome with pro green or pro blue/red. Not to dis the jitte, but is a 2 of worth the SB slot over countering the removal? I looked at light and shadow and the one thing about the 2 is thats and extra draw with sylvan, but the same can be said for the counters on jitte, but over all I was unimpressed.
Another card I never see in a zoo list is Avoid Fate, I can see why it's not an instant in but with so much removal in the meta, is it not worth the thought?
The reason that I played a second jitte was so that I could kill other jittes and still have a jitte to use. It comes in against the mirror and fish. You're right about all the swords but it's really a tough call as to whats better. They all have there benifits, so I guess it's what you feel your deck is weak against. My issue was having too many cards to bring in during certain mu's.
As for avoid fate, it falls in the same catagory as mental mistep in zoo. You want to be threatening with presure rather than countering there STP's or GFT.
From what I've seen, a lot of people actually have 2 jittes in the sideboard with no mystics at all in the deck. So there's 2 jitte just so you'll have a better chance at drawing it. With mystic I'd think more about whether to run one or two.
Also regarding the swords, I dont really like feast and famine, but that's my personal taste. I myself like sword of body and mind. Protection from blue is.. "nice", and protection from green is very relevant in a format full of tarmogoyfs. Anyways, getting 2/2 wolves to block/race/equip sword seems really good and milling for 10 is always nice for tarmogoyf/terravore. I myself dont think that you really need batterskull for this deck. It's a bit more of a controllish card.
Anyways, I'd be more than glad to suggest Elspeth, Knight-Errant to you. I believe I've won every game (or at least almost!) I've been able to play her. Price of Progress seems like a metagame dependant card, I dont like it md, but I guess it'll be great if you can pull it off!
So, I've been working on a cat zoo list and been thinking about sideboard for my metagame. Here's what I've done so far:
3 Tormod's Crypt
2 Wheel of Sun and Moon
1 Faerie Macabre
3 Price of Progress
2 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Null Rod
2 Red Elemental Blast
Maindeck is really close to Hatfield's list, -1 Sylvan Library and maybe -1 Grim Lavamancer, with added 1/2 Fireblast and 1 Knight of the Reliquary. Yes, my metagame is full of dredge if you're wondering. Can't wait for the next legacy tournament to see this deck in action.
Batterskull is somewhat of a personal choice and a metagame choice. With Stoneforge its a 4/4 for 2 that comes into play under standstill and can give you the pressure to make someone crack their own standstill. If you opt out of stoneforge and landstill is missing from your metagame, you can skip it, but I love how they interact to much to let it by.
If I was Landstill, I wouldn't let that Stoneforge resolve to begin with: between Spell Snare and STP, I will kill it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Temanaras
Seems like Fling would be better than Avoid Fate. At least it works towards the goal of killing the opponent. Still too narrow though, because those slots could just be more threats/burn.Quote:
Originally Posted by Temanaras
So to continue with my card choice questions, in my version of zoo I have been running 2 Magma Jet and it has worked well. The scry has saved me a time or two on dead drops or running into a 6th land when I need a threat. The 2 for 2 is weak, but I want to get peoples opinion.
Why run this over Sylvan Library?Quote:
Originally Posted by Temanaras
These Zoo lists look really strong, I'm really excited to see that rumors of the deck's demise were overstated. I'm not sure Null Rod is really needed right now and I do like Surgical Extraction, b/c of its versatility; I think Dredge is going to remain popular for a while. The sideboard PoP is nice, I used to do a 3/1 split and have played 2/2, or run none in the 75. 0/4 is ballsy, if only to devote that much sb space to it, but actually makes sense. Sylvan Library seems great right now although I still hate pushing above 2 copies myself. I'd play 3x Reb/Pyro, and I don't know if you need 23 lands with 2-3 Sylvan Libraries, but I haven't tried out that list to really know.
Also, Thrun! That guy is a boss.
With the format reportedly "slowing down", or at least stateside it's slowing down, why not run Steppe Lynx/Wild Nacatl? Screw mental misstep, Zoo has another dozen one drops on deck. Fast aggro will always be a contender