Miracle Control

Even though I absolutely hate the design of the card, I'm pretty sure that True-Name Nemesis is a positive meta change for us.

Also, like ivanpei said, don't play Thassa. At best it's a non-evasive 5/5 if you are already winning. More likely is that you get embarrassingly 2-for-1'd when they REB your Jace and proceed to ignore your 3 mana, legendary, do-nothing enchantment. Meanwhile you are wishing that Thassa could have been basically any other blue card and perhaps your Jace would still be alive (Discombobulate I'm looking at you).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by alphastryk

I see this come up a lot, and I still disagree. The general plan postboard vs combo should be to get more aggressive / fishy (clique, meddling mage, etc) and to board out slower / dead cards. I've played agiainst a lot of good SnS players and played the matchup from the other side and still think it is in Miracles favor, maybe 65-35.

I'm not sure what exactly I'm doing differently if anything, but the consensus here in Atlanta is definitely in Miracles' favor for whatever that's worth.

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Then something is up with the understanding of Legacy Magic players in Atlanta.

I don't see why you are making me repeating myself. You are at a massive disadvantage game 1, your StP and other creature removals are close to dead cards. Without any pressure game 1, they'll just sculpt their hand, win the counter war, and most likely the game. Since you're already down 1 game, they now have 2 shots to get an explosive hand game 2 or 3, since they now SB out more of their dead cards and SB in more counters like misdirection; or you might get a weak/mana screwed hand in the next 1 or 2 games, and that's the match.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by twndomn

Then something is up with the understanding of Legacy Magic players in Atlanta.

I don't see why you are making me repeating myself. You are at a massive disadvantage game 1, your StP and other creature removals are close to dead cards. Without any pressure game 1, they'll just sculpt their hand, win the counter war, and most likely the game. Since you're already down 1 game, they now have 2 shots to get an explosive hand game 2 or 3, since they now SB out more of their dead cards and SB in more counters like misdirection; or you might get a weak/mana screwed hand in the next 1 or 2 games, and that's the match.

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No one is making you repeating (sic!) yourself, that's your choice entirely. I'd agree that game one is very much in favor of Team Sneaky, but it will depend on build etc. If the Miracles players maindeck things like Humility or even just Pithing Needle, that could change things quite a bit. Also, the Sneak and Show player likely has to dig for a Sneak Attack in this matchup, which can sometimes take a while. Postboard, you say that they get to sideboard out their dead cards, which ones would that be? They will likely have to play with a diluted deck to fit in answers to various hate cards, while Team Miracles get to upgrade to said hate cards.

Slightly off topic, but: It is often the case when arguing magic (and many other things) that one argument does not strictly logically refute another, even though you might believe that the first argument is stronger. In that case, it is a good idea not to get too agitated about your position. Remember, we are all in it for fun (I hope).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by twndomn

I don't see why you are making me repeating myself. You are at a massive disadvantage game 1, your StP and other creature removals are close to dead cards. Without any pressure game 1, they'll just sculpt their hand, win the counter war, and most likely the game. Since you're already down 1 game, they now have 2 shots to get an explosive hand game 2 or 3, since they now SB out more of their dead cards and SB in more counters like misdirection; or you might get a weak/mana screwed hand in the next 1 or 2 games, and that's the match.

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You are looking at it the wrong way. Game one always favors the combo deck, simply because you don't know they are a combo deck. Games 2 and 3 should favor you because post-board you've cut ~8 or so dead cards and added in a bunch of very efficient counter magic and hate bears. Basically every non-land card is great post-board. Cards like Pithing Needle and Humility are nearly unbeatable for Sneak and Show. If you somehow happened to beat them game one then they are fighting a massively uphill battle for the next two.

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Originally Posted by Dzra

You are looking at it the wrong way. Game one always favors the combo deck, simply because you don't know they are a combo deck. Games 2 and 3 should favor you because post-board you've cut ~8 or so dead cards and added in a bunch of very efficient counter magic and hate bears. Basically every non-land card is great post-board. Cards like Pithing Needle and Humility are nearly unbeatable for Sneak and Show. If you somehow happened to beat them game one then they are fighting a massively uphill battle for the next two.

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How am I looking at it the wrong way when you already agree with me in that game 1 favors the combo deck? Think about what you are saying, are you praying that Sneak and Show will somehow just play bad or keep a horrible opening hand game 1? Aren't you already praying for that in every round?

The "every non-land card is great post-board" assessment is simply not true: Jace is simply a FoW pitcher in your opening hand. Because Needle and Humility are such obvious SB choices, naturally Sneak and Show has SB answers for them.

You can have all the SB hates you want against Sneak and Show; fundamentally, it's Miracle's lack of pressure to allow Sneak and Show to dig for answers and assemble that one explosive, resource abundant, duplicate combo pieces, well-protected turn, starting from EOT Wipe Away.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by twndomn

How am I looking at it the wrong way when you already agree with me in that game 1 favors the combo deck?

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Game two and three are so much in our favor that Sneak and Show basically must win game one in order to have even a chance. Even if they win game one, their average post-board hands are much worse than ours. In other words, they have to have the nuts to beat our average post-board draws.

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Originally Posted by twndomn

The "every non-land card is great post-board" assessment is simply not true: Jace is simply a FoW pitcher in your opening hand.

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Jace is always bad until you can cast him.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by twndomn

Because Needle and Humility are such obvious SB choices, naturally Sneak and Show has SB answers for them.

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If you will kindly look here, you will notice that Sneak and Show generally runs between zero and one main deck answers to permanents (Repeal) and zero to two sideboarded answers (some combination of Echoing Truth, Repeal, or occasionally one Wipe Away). With the average being somewhere between zero and one, they are actually quite cold to permanent-based hate. Echoing Truth and Repeal can both be easily countered and Wipe Away is stopped by leaving a 3 cmc on top with Counterbalance (which also stops SNT).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by twndomn

You can have all the SB hates you want against Sneak and Show; fundamentally, it's Miracle's lack of pressure to allow Sneak and Show to dig for answers and assemble that one explosive, resource abundant, duplicate combo pieces, well-protected turn, starting from EOT Wipe Away.

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Fundamentally, Sneak and Show cannot cast the majority of their deck if you have Counterbalance/Top out while floating a 4cmc and 3cmc. Again, Wipe Away does nothing when you leave your 3cmc on top at your EoT. Through the Breach is their best way around Pithing Needle and Counterbalance, but should they resolve it, they can still lose to your Clique, Venser, or Karakas.

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Originally Posted by 'Nilla Pac

I wouldn't take anything twndumn has to say too seriously. Everyone on this site is in his head and he's mad about it.

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Speak for yourself. I don't see how your comments like this are related to Miracle, or Magic for that matter. You should look into the mirror before you point your fingers at others.

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Originally Posted by Dzra

Game two and three are so much in our favor that Sneak and Show basically must win game one in order to have even a chance. Even if they win game one, their average post-board hands are much worse than ours. In other words, they have to have the nuts to beat our average post-board draws.

Jace is always bad until you can cast him.

you will notice that Sneak and Show generally runs between zero and one main deck answers to permanents (Repeal) and zero to two sideboarded answers (some combination of Echoing Truth, Repeal, or occasionally one Wipe Away). With the average being somewhere between zero and one, they are actually quite cold to permanent-based hate. Echoing Truth and Repeal can both be easily countered and Wipe Away is stopped by leaving a 3 cmc on top with Counterbalance (which also stops SNT).

Fundamentally, Sneak and Show cannot cast the majority of their deck if you have Counterbalance/Top out while floating a 4cmc and 3cmc. Again, Wipe Away does nothing when you leave your 3cmc on top at your EoT. Through the Breach is their best way around Pithing Needle and Counterbalance, but should they resolve it, they can still lose to your Clique, Venser, or Karakas.

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There're no statistical evidences suggesting that their post-board hands are worse than ours. I can argue that our post-board hands are only about as equal as theirs and my argument is as valid as yours.

Jace is not only always bad until you can cast him. Even if you have 4 Mana source, are you actually going to tap out against Sneak and Show to play it just because you can? If you manage to survive to the point where you have more than 4 Mana source, you probably pitched Jace to FoW already. The best purpose of Jace might end up being floated for CB, an almost dead card in our hand. Therefore, it's fair for me to conclude that you actually agree with: Not every non-land card is great post-board in Miracle.

Floating 4 cmc and 3 cmc with a resolved CB-T is obvious, who on this thread isn't aware of that? In case you haven't noticed, the problem is how do we get there. Yes, needle and maybe meddling mage could help, but I'm still not certain at times.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by twndomn

Floating 4 cmc and 3 cmc with a resolved CB-T is obvious, who on this thread isn't aware of that? In case you haven't noticed, the problem is how do we get there. Yes, needle and maybe meddling mage could help, but I'm still not certain at times.

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I feel like alphastryk and I have both given some pretty solid advise for the Sneak and Show matchup; maybe it'd just be easier to discuss actual games that you've played against SNT and what you might try differently.

Is there a base list for helm+ RIP? Thank you just started to figure out what it's left for me to get

Sent from my HTC One S using Tapatalk

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Originally Posted by DDS5

Is there a base list for helm+ RIP? Thank you just started to figure out what it's left for me to get

Sent from my HTC One S using Tapatalk

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I'm pretty sure Caleb durward has a list for miracle helm combo. You could try looking into that and make some updates to fit your meta
Found the article . It has everything you need to know about miraces and has a couple of lists plus rip helm combo.
http://www.starcitygames.com/article...es-Primer.html

Thank you Deadpool9

Sent from my HTC One S using Tapatalk

Quote:

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Originally Posted by twndomn

Then something is up with the understanding of Legacy Magic players in Atlanta.

I don't see why you are making me repeating myself. You are at a massive disadvantage game 1, your StP and other creature removals are close to dead cards. Without any pressure game 1, they'll just sculpt their hand, win the counter war, and most likely the game. Since you're already down 1 game, they now have 2 shots to get an explosive hand game 2 or 3, since they now SB out more of their dead cards and SB in more counters like misdirection; or you might get a weak/mana screwed hand in the next 1 or 2 games, and that's the match.

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Your mistake is letting them sculpt their hand. Counter cantrips, especially with cards like pierce that get weaker over time.They are better at a single turn counter war - don't let the game get to that state, and play permanent-based hate to make it harder for them to answer your answers. Your deck should also be all gas after game 1, whereas sneak has to dilute their game plan to answer your hate cards. It's very rare that they should ever win game 2 or 3. Don't keep hands with bad mana, and it's pretty impossible to keep a weak hand. Board out all of your wraths, they are awful. If they made a man, you lost. entreat / jace are the only weaker cards to open on, and you can mulligan / brainstorm. Sneak is slow, you have time to sculpt too.

Agreed to not allowing them to sculpt there hand. but I have lost to it 3 out of the 4 times I have played it. ( qualifing statement I have been playing the deck for 2 days)

Sent from my HTC One S using Tapatalk

Quote:

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Originally Posted by alphastryk

Your mistake is letting them sculpt their hand. Counter cantrips, especially with cards like pierce that get weaker over time.

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Easy for you to say. Your hand doesn't always give you the luxury to counter cantrips. Do you intend to spend counters on their 4 Ponders + 4 Brainstorms such that you have no more counters left for the actual combo? Not to mention some builds even run Gitaxian Probe. Sometimes they are just cantriping for the fatty and extra counters, they have the combo pieces already, multiple even. It's actually Not just about the one turn counter war, it's a real possibility that they have multiple Show and Tell, or multiple Sneak Attack. Sure you can win 1 counter war, how about the next combo piece? That deck wins SCG titles and Top8s for good reasons, resiliency is one of them. For you to state the obvious, it's almost as if you are dissing on all the pros.

Hate to be that guy, but I'm actually with twmdomn on this one, as I've battled my fair share against SnT in tournament environments... and it's a tough MU, period.

While you guys are right about the fact that it does get better G2/3 since we're actually able to board out most of our dead cards. Obviously SnT too brings in some combination of REB, Fluster Storm and Swan Song, aka stuff we don't like to run into when facing Oops I Win decks.

You are also right about CB Top being key for taking them down. However, with all their cantrips SnT is by far better at assemling two card combos, plus while their two cards are "gg" 90% of the time, when resolved, CB Top is just a means to enhance our showdown counter war.

Bottom line being - don't make the mistake to take this MU lightly. Imo it's about 40-45% pre-, and 50-55% post board, and thus a slightly unfavorable MU.

EDIT: excerpt from the new SnT primer, which is a spot on MU evaluation from the other side of the table:
UWr Miracles 55:45
An annoying, but overall positive matchup. They have a lot of hate and games get really grindy once they have their countertop engine online. The big upside however is that they present absolutely no clock, which gives you all the time you need to sculpt the perfect hand. Still, the best-case scenario is an explosive
start with an early Sneak Attack, because later it can get difficult if they have a 3- and a 4-drop on top of their deck alongside Countertop.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by klaus

Bottom line being - don't make the mistake to take this MU lightly. Imo it's about 40-45% pre-, and 50-55% post board, and thus a slightly unfavorable MU.

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I definitely wouldn't take the MU lightly, but then again, it's hard to take any MU lightly as even slight misplays can easily cost Miracles the game. Sneak Attack is one of the easier matchups in my experience, and if you or twndomn wants to share any games or preferably videos of you playing against Sneak Attack then it'd be easier to evaluate. There are a lot of intricacies in the MU, but once you understand them it isn't too bad.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dzra

I definitely wouldn't take the MU lightly, but then again, it's hard to take any MU lightly as even slight misplays can easily cost Miracles the game. Sneak Attack is one of the easier matchups in my experience, and if you or twndomn wants to share any games or preferably videos of you playing against Sneak Attack then it'd be easier to evaluate. There are a lot of intricacies in the MU, but once you understand them it isn't too bad.

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I don't have to, personally, you can easily find the best doing the work. Again, for the n-th time, I respectfully disagree.

http://www.twitch.tv/scglive/b/476320410?t=10h56m30s

Quote:

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Originally Posted by alphastryk

Board out all of your wraths, they are awful. If they made a man, you lost. entreat / jace are the only weaker cards to open on, and you can mulligan / brainstorm. Sneak is slow, you have time to sculpt too.

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I strongly disagree with that assessment. Depending on your build, if you have 1 Supreme Verdict MD, you might want to consider leaving it in. Your 4 CMC are: 3 Jaces and at least 1 Venser, then it's up to your build, maybe +1 Supreme Verdict, maybe +1 for 2nd Venser. You need some amount of 4 CMC, Verdict is one of them.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by twndomn

I don't have to, personally, you can easily find the best doing the work. Again, for the n-th time, I respectfully disagree.

http://www.twitch.tv/scglive/b/476320410?t=10h56m30s

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I think we discussed this earlier in the thread, but I'm fairly certain that Joe missed the Terminus here when he blind flipped Top. Either way, Game 1 against Sneak and Show is very difficult and Joe got really close off a pretty weak hand.

Game 2 he won with a really strange hand off one Mystic Gate.

Game 3 he mulls yet another mono Mystic Gate hand and still manages to win. Although at 11:33 I think I like trying the Spell Pierce instead of the Force of Will. He probably just pays with the two Lotus Petals and Sneak Attack resolves. On your turn, you can just drop Pithing Needle and move on with life.

However, if he is holding FoW/Misdirection, Blue spell, and fatty then you can still FoW pitching Misdirection. If he is holding a third Lotus Petal + fatty and tries to Sneak it in then you can bounce it with Karakas. If he tries to Pierce your Pierce (potentially holding Petal and fatty) then you can still FoW the Sneak Attack. The point of all this being that the Pierce isn't getting a lot better and you are holding Pithing Needle. You don't care if Sneak Attack resolves so much as long as he can't use it. I think it's better to save your FoW as a last resort.

Either way, I don't see your point... This video seems to agree with alphastryk and I that Miracles is unfavored game one, but with good mulligans and tight play seems very favored games two and three.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dzra

Either way, I don't see your point... This video seems to agree with alphastryk and I that Miracles is unfavored game one, but with good mulligans and tight play seems very favored games two and three.

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If your list is a straight carbon copy of Joe's list, with Flusterstorm, Misdirection, Swan Song (his later version), and 2 Karakas in your 75, then yes, you should have your wall of counters no doubt. However, not All Miracle lists are equal. Your overstatements pretty much assume every Miracle build is Joe's 75 and every person would play as tight as Joe, which is Delusional on your part. Furthermore, the Sneak and Show in game 2 and game 3 did not have the explosive starts whatsoever, one might even argue that player did not SB correctly, only he would know his SB choices of course. Not to mention what the commentators have said, with the risk Joe took; to be specific, the game would be a lot different, if Show and Tell causes Venser and Sneak Attack/Griselbrand to appear. Simply put, when stars align and broken clocks become correct, your assessment on the match-up would be what SCG clip has captured here.

New year, same pet deck. Time to revisit some stuff...
:u: :w: :r: vs. :u: :w:

Background: I've been a faithful proponent of the red splash for a looong time and still consider it legit, but stuff like that needs to be re-evaluated once in a while, even if the conclusion suggests to maintain what you've been rolling with.
I'm gonna be blunt and boil down the entire pros cons debate down to REB usefulness VS. manabase stability. That's what it actually comes down to since, Bloodmoon, Sulfur Elemental and Pyroclasm have been discarded by most smart people, and the difference between Disenchant and Wear/Tear is marginal.
For many, including myself, Flusterstorm would be the go-to replacement for REB - this is why: both offer a cheap way to interact, by countering cantrips, disruption and enablers. While REBs counter/kill Delvers, TNNs and Jaces (which is THE pro argument for the red splash btw), FS has both broader applications (counters non-blue spells) and more inevitability (storm copies).
So yeah the question to ask should be: "Would I favor FS + a better manabase over REBness?"
Obviously such evaluations are highly meta-dependent, which is why I'd like to base my thoughts on a mainstream spectrum of Q4's competitive environment, taking into account a range of top events:

RUG Delver (11.2%)
ANT (9.5%)
UWR Delver (8.6%)
BUG Delver (6.9%)
Death and Taxes (6.9%)
Miracles (6.0%)
DeathBlade (6.0%)
Sneak and Show (6.0%)
EsperBlade (5.2%)
Elves (5.2%)
Shardless BUG (5.2%)

(source: http://www.channelfireball.com/artic...game-analysis/)


So let's get down to business and apply the essential question to those MUs:

RUG Delver
Blue-based? --> Y // Wastelands? --> Y
Would I rather have Flusterstorms and more basics? --> Yes, since it's easier to safely assemble Supreme Verdict mana, counter their Stifles, and protect Terminus.

ANT
Blue-based? --> Y // Wastelands? --> N
Would I rather have Flusterstorms and more basics? --> Yes. FS is better Storm hate, period. Nifty play: keeping FS on top with Top to circumvent discard.

UWR Delver
Blue-based? --> Y // Wastelands? --> Y
Would I rather have Flusterstorms and more basics? --> Depends on whether they run Jace and/or Stifles. I guess: "undecided".

BUG Delver
Blue-based? // Wastelands? --> Y --> Y (most iterations)
Would I rather have Flusterstorms and more basics? --> Yes. Being able to counter Hymns is huge in this MU.

Death and Taxes
Blue-based? --> N // Wastelands? --> Y
Would I rather have Flusterstorms and more basics? --> Yes. REB does nothing here.

Miracles
Blue-based? --> Y // Wastelands? --> N (hardly every)
Would I rather have Flusterstorms and more basics? --> No. Being able to counter/destroy CB and Jace is golden here.

DeathBlade
Blue-based? --> Y (I'd say >50%) // Wastelands? --> Y
Would I rather have Flusterstorms and more basics? --> No: TNN & Jace.

Sneak and Show
Blue-based? --> Y // Wastelands? --> N (though some might bring in Moons)
Would I rather have Flusterstorms and more basics? --> Undecided: FS is superior in counter wars, which this MU sees a lot, but so-so towards the late midgame.

EsperBlade
Blue-based? --> Y // Wastelands? --> Y (I'd say 50%)
Would I rather have Flusterstorms and more basics? --> No: TNN & Jace.

Elves
Blue-based? --> N // Wastelands? --> N
Would I rather have Flusterstorms and more basics? --> Yes. REBs are useless, while FS serves as Glimpse hate.

Shardless BUG
Blue-based? --> N // Wastelands? --> N (hardly ever)
Would I rather have Flusterstorms and more basics? --> No: Ancestral Visions & Jace.


As expected there does not seem to be a clear winner, which is why I decided to give every "Y" & "N" a weight determined by the AVG meta percentage above.

RUG Delver --> Y (11.2)
ANT --> Y (9.5)
UWR Delver --> N (8.6) though this is not a clear "N" to me
BUG Delver --> Y (6.9)
Death and Taxes --> Y (6.9)
Miracles --> N (6.0)
DeathBlade --> N (6.0)
Sneak and Show --> Undecided (0) though I'd lean towards FS here.
EsperBlade --> N (5.2)
Elves --> Y (5.2)
Shardless BUG --> N (5.2)
________________________________

TOTAL: Y = 32.8 // N = 31

Conclusion:
I wouldn't have expected to switch from UWr to UW before finishing this post. Obviously some tournament experiences are needed to back up the switch.
In the meantime I'll do some tweaking, such as getting SCM back on board (who had been gone for quite some time), simply due to his nice synergy with FS.
Here's a first draft for reference:

4 BS
4 FoW
4 STP
4 CB
4 Top
4 Jace
3 EtA
2 SCM
2 CS
2 Verdict
2 Terminus
1 D. Sphere
1 Ponder
(37)

4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
1 Arid Mesa
1 Windswept Heath
4 Tundra
7 Island
3 Plains
1 Karakas
(23)

SB:
3 Fluster Storm
3 Pierce
3 RiP
2 Terminus
2 Clique
2 Disenchant
1 flex slot

Ok, I think it's time for me to chime in and address some points that came up during the last pages. Strangely though I will argue against people I used to side with and vice versa. In any way, let's get straight to the point.

First of all let's turn to the Sneak-MU. Many correct things have been said, and you probably came to a conclusion already, but let me give you might point of view to this very topic. Sneak Attack has to be treated as a Combodeck, as a pure Combodeck. Do not plan on dealing with the creatures once they hit the battlefield. Yeah, we have all Terminused away an Emrakul G1 but this is not the way it should work. Game 1 is negative, we have way to many bad and situational cards while not representing a clock and...well you all know the problem. G2 and G3 on the other hand are considerably easier, we get Flusterstorm+REB for Show and Tell, allowing our mainboarded counters to focus on Sneak. Depending on the Sideboard you have access to disruptive creatures, be it Clique, Canonist or Meddling Mage. Terminus coms out, Verdict stays in case you don't have clearly superior cards. G2 and G3 are positive, but we can still get killed as soon as G2 where we do not have access to a useful Countertop or all our Counters. Don't think you are invincible. Generally you can adapt what JPA said in his Sneak-Primer, he knows what he is talking about - even though I dispatched his Sneak with Miracles at GP Strasbourg. I'd play against MonoU Omni any day of the week, compared to Sneak.

On the UWR vs UW - topic. Your analysis is probably correct. Besides a few flaws here and there it seems correct. But you have made an error, way before starting to execute your analysis. Your premises are choosen in a wrong way, as is the relationship between your conclusions. The question should never ever ever be Flusterstorm vs REB. Never ever. I am playing both of them, alongside each other. As of now 4 REB and 3 Fluster. The assumption that Flusterstorm would replace REB is wrong and therefore is your analysis. I am sorry.

Red Elemental Blast is better than ever. With a new blue creature running rampant in the format the Jace-Vindicate of times long past has been upgraded to a Counterspell, a Jace-Vindicate plus a Removalspell. Have you ever played postboard games vs UWR Delver? This MU feels like a BYE. Between 4 Swords 4 REB 3 Terminus 3 Supreme Verdict and 3 Snapcaster Mage to flashback it all back they rarely see the light of the day. But you might argue that staying UW comes hand in hand with the better Manabase. Probably. Better yes, far better? No. With a sideboarded Mountain REBs are being upgraded even moren - boarding now the full set of REBs vs any Tempodeck opens up new ways of approaching a MU, as we now have even fucking more Delverremoval, as well as additional counters - admittingly though - REBs don't protect our lands as well as Flusterstorms do.

I really see no reason as of now to not play Red, but well - I have never seen a reason not to, for about 2 years now or something.

Here is my list, I first posted it somethng about two or three months ago, only changing the REB/Pyrosplit ever since.

4 Tundra
1 Volcanic Island
5 Island
2 Plains
4 Flooded Strand
2 Arid Mesa
3 Counterbalance
1 Counterspell
3 Spell Pierce
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
3 Terminus
1 Supreme Verdict
3 Entreat the Angels
1 Vendilion Clique
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Snapcaster Mage
1 Ponder
1 Karakas
3 Scalding Tarn
SB: 3 Rest in Peace
SB: 4 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 2 Wear // Tear
SB: 2 Flusterstorm
SB: 1 Vendilion Clique
SB: 2 Supreme Verdict
SB: 1 Mountain


Greetings

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Einherjer

On the UWR vs UW - topic. Your analysis is probably correct. Besides a few flaws here and there it seems correct. But you have made an error, way before starting to execute your analysis. Your premises are choosen in a wrong way, as is the relationship between your conclusions. The question should never ever ever be Flusterstorm vs REB. Never ever. I am playing both of them, alongside each other. As of now 4 REB and 3 Fluster. The assumption that Flusterstorm would replace REB is wrong and therefore is your analysis. I am sorry.

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I agree with Einherjer, while I think it is very important to constantly re-analyse decks like miracles and not just assume you have to run red, there are some serious flaws with your arguement based around flusterstorm vs REB. A lot of the matchups you analysed, I would want both REB and fluster (sneak, ANT) and some of them I would want neither (D&T). It is not REB vs flusterstorm, you can run both of those cards, I always have. The issue is, is 3 REBs worth having 1-2 non-basic lands in your deck that 90% of the time might as well just be islands? I think the REBs are worth it still, it is very rare that I naturally draw a volc and it would be better being a basic island.


As far as the sneak/show matchup is going. Im not sure what you people consistently losing to it are doing wrong. We have all the tools we need to beat it. G1 can be rough, but G2/3 you have to get very unlucky to lose usually. REB/Fluster and the threat of O-Ring/venser/karakas basically shuts down S&T game 2/3. All you really have to worry about is sneak attack resolving. Pithing Needles are something I usually run 2 of and they go long way. Meddling mages are also really good if you are having trouble with this matchup.

Cliques are also amazing in that matchup, they come down before they can cast sneak usually (and can tuck sneak away), you can play them in response to a S&T (or sneak activation), they cost 3 for balance, and most importantly they provide a fairly quick clock without tapping out.

As much as I hate turning creatures sideways, if your losing the sneak matchup, its probably because you arent running creatures like Venser, SCM, MM, or clique and are relying on resolving an entreat or jace in order to win.

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Originally Posted by Einherjer

The assumption that Flusterstorm would replace REB is wrong and therefore is your analysis.

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Obviously this a fundamental difference in perspective, and I do see that since you've been running FS all along my approach makes little sense to you. FS is far from being core SB material. I don't have the time on my hands to do the research, but I'd be willing to bet that less than 50% of the UWr lists out there run more than 1 FS in their 75, and that most of the times REB clogging the SB is the main reason.

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Originally Posted by Einherjer

Red Elemental Blast is better than ever. With a new blue creature running rampant in the format the Jace-Vindicate of times long past has been upgraded

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I let the Jace Vindicate argument count - this is the reason "No" was the answer in 2-3 of the given MUs above. TNN is a menace and he did have some impact on my train of thought, however I believe, Miracles is better fit than most decks out there to pummel him. Outside of regular counter magic most lists run 5-7 sweepers in their 75.

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Originally Posted by Einherjer

Have you ever played postboard games vs UWR Delver?

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I find this MU favorable regardless of REB actually.

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Originally Posted by Einherjer

With a sideboarded Mountain REBs are being upgraded even more

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After years of rocking UWr mainly for REBs I got to say the basic Mountain in the SB is indeed strong but at the end of the day more of a liability, occupying precious SB space when compared to UW SBs.

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Originally Posted by Einherjer

I really see no reason as of now to not play Red

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During the times when Lingering Souls ran rampant, Sulfur Elemental gave R some sexiness. When Weenie decks made a bigger impact Pyroclasm was a cute idea, when greedy BUG decks where all over the place Bloodmoon could win you rounds, BUT: none of these cards are feasible anymore. And that's the main reason I revisit the red splash in the first place.
Anyway only testing will tell what's cracking and in the meantime I'll indeed ask myself whether I'd rather have drawn an REB instead of a FS whenever I see one ;-)

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Originally Posted by TheArchitect

As far as the sneak/show matchup is going. Im not sure what you people consistently losing to it are doing wrong. We have all the tools we need to beat it. G1 can be rough, but G2/3 you have to get very unlucky to lose usually.

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Well, I havn't lost a match against Sneak Attack at any competitive event, nontheless serious testing proved the MU to be not as good as it may seem. Well I could say "yeah I beat all the Sneaks, easy MU guys" - but this would be wrong all along. Certain tournamentexperiences are useful, but not the end of all reasoning. Do serious testing with equally skilled pilots and standardized lists, and you will see what we mean by what we say.

Greetings

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Originally Posted by klaus

New year, same pet deck. Time to revisit some stuff...
:u: :w: :r: vs. :u: :w:

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I like the analytical aspect of that post, it's pretty useful, regardless the point. Kinda of wish every comparison is done in that format. Now, I disagree with the argument. You seem to miss an obvious fact: splash red is not just for the blasts, it's ALSO for Wear//Tear. The difference between the 2 is Not marginal. Floating Wear//Tear with CB-T on the table is flat out superior than floating a disenchant.

1. Flusterstorm vs Blasts
2. Wear//Tear vs Disenchant
3. EE for 0 < 2, EE for 0< 3


Klaus analyzed point 1 in depth, but point 2 and 3 need further analysis as well, cannot overlook those.

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Originally Posted by twndomn

I like the analytical aspect of that post, it's pretty useful, regardless the point. Kinda of wish every comparison is done in that format. Now, I disagree with the argument. You seem to miss an obvious fact: splash red is not just for the blasts, it's ALSO for Wear//Tear. The difference between the 2 is Not marginal. Floating Wear//Tear with CB-T on the table is flat out superior than floating a disenchant.

1. Flusterstorm vs Blasts
2. Wear//Tear vs Disenchant
3. EE for 0 < 2, EE for 0< 3


Klaus analyzed point 1 in depth, but point 2 and 3 need further analysis as well, cannot overlook those.

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I disagree, I think the wear//tear interaction is extremely minor. Its awesome when it happens, but disenchant on top with a top and CB in play is not much worse. Having wear//tear instead at that point wouldnt only put you in a slightly more awesome position.

I dont think flusterstorm vs REB is the issue. I run both and so do most other people. The issue is, is REB (and the minor advantages of having other SB cards) worth having a slightly weaker manabase? I think the answer is yes.

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Originally Posted by twndomn

You seem to miss an obvious fact: splash red is not just for the blasts, it's ALSO for Wear//Tear. The difference between the 2 is Not marginal. Floating Wear//Tear with CB-T on the table is flat out superior than floating a disenchant.

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I thought Wear/Tear was going to be nuts, but I ended up cutting it for Disenchant, and then Explosives. Having to fetch Volcanic Island seemed terrible against UWR and Death & Taxes; same reason I'm not such a fan of REB. As someone pointed out, as well, the fact that it's a 1 as well as a 2 isn't so hot when you consider that if it's being floated, you probably are using a Top to float it.

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Originally Posted by Cipher

I thought Wear/Tear was going to be nuts, but I ended up cutting it for Disenchant, and then Explosives. Having to fetch Volcanic Island seemed terrible against UWR and Death & Taxes; same reason I'm not such a fan of REB. As someone pointed out, as well, the fact that it's a 1 as well as a 2 isn't so hot when you consider that if it's being floated, you probably are using a Top to float it.

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The Volcanic Island seems horrible against UWR is a separate argument. The intuitive respond is of course, run mountain instead.

I don't know if this ever happens to you: you can only produce one Mana source, maybe it's a fetchland, rest of your Mana sources are tapped. Then your opponent catches that moment to play Choke or Blood Moon. In this case, Wear//Tear has the easier Mana requirement.

Again, you have to look at the picture as a whole. Point 1, 2, and 3 together, along with match-ups across the board. As many have pointed out, you want your SB cards to be as versatile as possible. Taking out Blasts for Flusterstorm seems to be the opposite of that.

@Einherjer

Do you have board plans posted at all? I like the board especially the full set of pyroblast.

Played Quad-Entreat feat. Tithe today in a local event today ... so good against Wasteland/Stifle/Spell Pierce.decs. The list was full of crazy lulz ... dropping an Akroma into a S&T facing a Griselbrand is hilarious.

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

Played Quad-Entreat feat. Tithe today in a local event today ... so good against Wasteland/Stifle/Spell Pierce.decs. The list was full of crazy lulz ... dropping an Akroma into a S&T facing a Griselbrand is hilarious.

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Why would you run Akroma?

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Originally Posted by klaus

Why would you run Akroma?

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I did this for pure trolling in the first place and realized during the tournament how awesome the card could be if you can power it out with the help of Tithe.

Don't consider it a serious approach guys. ;)

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

I did this for pure trolling in the first place and realized during the tournament how awesome the card could be if you can power it out with the help of Tithe.

Don't consider it a serious approach guys. ;)

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Post the list though.

Anyone else played against the 4 Color Deathbladebantdeck with 4 Daze, 2 JTMS, 8 Manadorks etc. and wants to share his experience?

It's a good deck in my eyes with sometimes high variance, you can be completely destroyed by their nutdraw and creaturebeatdown with Counterprotection. Also the 2 Jace are annoying.

I've been playing U/W Miracles and have been satisfied with my results:

Planeswalkers [4]
4 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Lands [23]
5 Island
2 Plains
1 Arid Mesa
4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Mystic Gate
3 Tundra
2 Karakas

Artifacts [5]
4 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Helm of Obedience

Enchantments [8]
3 Counterbalance
2 Rest in Peace
1 Detention Sphere
1 Energy Field
1 Moat

Instants [15]
4 Brainstorm
1 Counterspell
3 Force of Will
2 Spell Pierce
3 Swords to Plowshares
1 Enlightened Tutor

Sorceries [5]
2 Entreat the Angels
3 Supreme Verdict

Sideboard [15]
4 Meddling Mage
3 Vendilion Clique
2 Humility
1 Misdirection
1 Force of Will
1 Rest in Peace
1 Disenchant
2 Oblivion Ring

I feel very well positioned versus the current meta. With the exception of decks playing Liliana of the Veil, I feel well positioned to counter or deal with the vast majority of threats. Moat has been an absolute powerhouse and very few decks can beat it once it resolves.

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Originally Posted by Adryan

Anyone else played against the 4 Color Deathbladebantdeck with 4 Daze, 2 JTMS, 8 Manadorks etc. and wants to share his experience?

It's a good deck in my eyes with sometimes high variance, you can be completely destroyed by their nutdraw and creaturebeatdown with Counterprotection. Also the 2 Jace are annoying.

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Yeah, it was the first time I'd seen it, but I lost to this deck last week actually. Game 1 I lost to a bad land draw coupled with SFM and Nemesis. Game 2 I resolve Moat and proceed to lose to his Jace. Neither of my hands/draws were that great, but I can see how the deck could be difficult to fight because of its multiple fronts. Overall, it likely doesn't play out much differently than Stoneblade except that it trades some of its late game for a light tempo package.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by twndomn

You seem to miss an obvious fact: splash red is not just for the blasts, it's ALSO for Wear//Tear. The difference between the 2 is Not marginal. Floating Wear//Tear with CB-T on the table is flat out superior than floating a disenchant.

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Also, I've been a little... disenchanted with Wear//Tear recently. haaar har
Despite quite a few upsides, having to fetch Volcanics to destroy artifacts with Wear//Tear can be a real downer against Wastelands. I think I'll go back to Disenchant for now and see if I really miss the potential 2-for-1s and cheaper Choke-removal.

@ mini

I don't want to be rude, but honestly every RIP list is strictly inferior to a non RIP List with Cliques and/or SCM.
But this really shows how powerful the Miraclearchetype is, you can dilute the majority of your Maindeck, but if the core of the deck remains somehow intact you still have a good deck.

Disagree strongly. Access to cards like Moat and Energy Field via E-Tutor is huge. Being able to Tutor for a Top when necessary is also big game. Being able to use your engine to randomly win the game is not to be taken lightly.

I love Enlightened Tutor. I don't think MD RIP is the way to go at the moment. Also, despite how disappointing and swingy Blood Moon has been in the past, I have to admit that it single handily won me two matches today, both against Shardless (one splashing Red for Bloodbraid and Punishing Fire).