[Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm

Hello everyone,

I recently started playing, well honestly trying to play, TES as I was looking for a fun Deck for my return to Legacy.
A friend of mine is playing a Bant Build which I find hard to overcome.
Preboard the matchup seems ok overall.

Maindeck he has 4 Force of Will and 3 Spell Pierce combined with a clock mainly consisting of 4 Goyfs and 3 Geist of Saint Traft.
But postboard it gets really hard for me. He boards in 2 Flusterstorm, 2 Surgical Extractions , 2 Ethersworn Canonist and a 2nd Clique.
I´m not sure how to board properly against this deck.

Atm I take out 1x Ponder/1Infernal Tutor/1Chromme Mox for 2xChain of Vapor and 1 Thoughtseize.
Not sure whether Xantid Swarms or Silence are better in this matchup.

I hope you can help me with this problem as my winrate is only about 25% in matches :frown:

Greetings Holtzi

Combination Permanent Based hate like Canonist plus seemingly infinite countermagic is just not easy to deal with. You just dont have the time. Do you guys think just straight boarding in the second empty to hopefully improve the odds of going off for goblins on T1 is a decent idea?

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Originally Posted by Megadeus

Combination Permanent Based hate like Canonist plus seemingly infinite countermagic is just not easy to deal with. You just dont have the time. Do you guys think just straight boarding in the second empty to hopefully improve the odds of going off for goblins on T1 is a decent idea?

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Improving one card (boarding in EtW for something less optimal) but worsening four (Wish cannot find EtW anymore) seems bad.
Perhaps you should find room for a second EtW in the sideboard if you really want to board one in.

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Originally Posted by Holtzi

Hello everyone,

I recently started playing, well honestly trying to play, TES as I was looking for a fun Deck for my return to Legacy.
A friend of mine is playing a Bant Build which I find hard to overcome.
Preboard the matchup seems ok overall.

Maindeck he has 4 Force of Will and 3 Spell Pierce combined with a clock mainly consisting of 4 Goyfs and 3 Geist of Saint Traft.
But postboard it gets really hard for me. He boards in 2 Flusterstorm, 2 Surgical Extractions , 2 Ethersworn Canonist and a 2nd Clique.
I´m not sure how to board properly against this deck.

Atm I take out 1x Ponder/1Infernal Tutor/1Chromme Mox for 2xChain of Vapor and 1 Thoughtseize.
Not sure whether Xantid Swarms or Silence are better in this matchup.

I hope you can help me with this problem as my winrate is only about 25% in matches :frown:

Greetings Holtzi

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7 Counterspells is no resistance tbh. You should overcome that easily and Surgical Extraction is pointless against TES. Boarding out speed-components is wrong as you can't let him establish a hatebear and counters. I would bring in Swarms (as he will boar out StoP) and permament removal for the Silences and a Ponder. You can just sidestep the hate or race it.

Greetings from Berlin

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

Surgical Extraction is pointless against TES.

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I must disagree with you on this. If Bant has enough not very useful cards to board out, Extractions should definitely come in. How are you going to win if he counters a Wish and the Extracts all of them? Assuming the Bant player also has SFM->Batterskull, you might not want to have Empty the Warrens as only out...
Another one I faced in testing was when I was setting up a "Brainstorm, Probe-resp. sac two LEDs" kill, and I realised the Extraction made me shuffle away my Ad Nauseam. Fringe case, I give you that, but it happened.

Of course Extractions are not the biggest issue, but they can be a nuisance.

Other than that you are right. Fighting through 9 permission spells post board is fine. The Canonists will be a problem, so perhaps I would board -1 Mox, -1 Infernal, +2 Chain. TES should never board too much. The deck can be a bit scetchy as it is, we shouldn't make it worse.

(Edit: made an error in my last bit.)

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Originally Posted by Asthereal

I must disagree with you on this. If Bant has enough not very useful cards to board out, Extractions should definitely come in. How are you going to win if he counters a Wish and the Extracts all of them? Assuming the Bant player also has SFM->Batterskull, you might not want to have Empty the Warrens as only out...
Another one I faced in testing was when I was setting up a "Brainstorm, Probe-resp. sac two LEDs" kill, and I realised the Extraction made me shuffle away my Ad Nauseam. Fringe case, I give you that, but it happened.

Of course Extractions are not the biggest issue, but they can be a nuisance.

Other than that you are right. Fighting through 9 permission spells post board is fine. The Canonists will be a problem, so perhaps I would board -1 Mox, -1 Infernal, +2 Chain. TES should never board too much. The deck can be a bit scetchy as it is, we shouldn't make it worse.

(Edit: made an error in my last bit.)

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The SFM->Batterskull nonsense is the reason I switched to the 4 Therapies in my 75 to get rid of that shit and keep Goblins as an option alive.

Get a Wish countered and extracted is a worst-case-scenario but you can sure work around that. I see Bant and UWR players keep boarding RIP and Extraction against me and I was never impressed. For your last part, I disagree with that boarding plan, because you want to go for AN asap against limited counters and hatebears. This isn't Tempo that forced you into the midgame

So you would side just one Chain and run a greater risk of losing against a resolved Canonist?
Swarms should help though. Perhaps -3 Silence, +2 Swarm, +1 discard spell (Batterskull).

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Originally Posted by Asthereal

So you would side just one Chain and run a greater risk of losing against a resolved Canonist?
Swarms should help though. Perhaps -3 Silence, +2 Swarm, +1 discard spell (Batterskull).

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He sides in 2 Chain of Vapor as he said: -4 Silence, -1 Ponder, +3 Xantid Swarm, +2 Chain of Vapor.
I guess 3 Cabal Therapy as discard spells should be enough to handle Batterskull due to the possibility to flashback it through goblins. More discard may be ok, but I do not like the idea of siding to much. Lemnear also plays only one Cabal Therapy in his sideboard to make it wishable if I remember correctly. There is no sideable discard in his board I think.

Ah, I misread that.

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Originally Posted by Mindlash

He sides in 2 Chain of Vapor as he said: -4 Silence, -1 Ponder, +3 Xantid Swarm, +2 Chain of Vapor.
I guess 3 Cabal Therapy as discard spells should be enough to handle Batterskull due to the possibility to flashback it through goblins. More discard may be ok, but I do not like the idea of siding to much. Lemnear also plays only one Cabal Therapy in his sideboard to make it wishable if I remember correctly. There is no sideable discard in his board I think.

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I'm so proud of you, Chris ;D

Thus as an Alternative, you can think about Decays instead of the chains if you worry about the counterspells, but I always end up flipping the Decays to Ad Nauseam ;P



Edit 1: I'm still trying to fit faces to usernames after the BoM. There were 2 french gentlemen that I had a chat with after the rounds, I'm not able to remember their names. Forgive me :(
Jaycounet is the only frenchman I sure remember :)

Edit 2: Mindlash, It's still outta my mind, that your Friend was able to identify me soly of my dices and appearance :D Greetings to him.

Edit 3: Still thinking about adjustments according to my latest issues about the uprising various hate, which is hard to beat.

Edit 4: thinking about HotS Vol. 6 ... Not sure where to find a variable and balanced metagame to catch some of the more interresting matchups like Patriot, bUrg Delver, Esperblade, etc. rather than the combo- & combo-hate-metagame of Berlin after the downfall of my previous playgroup.

Edit 5: Maybe setting up a stream instead of those reports ... reports are so 2004. Yeah, I'm a dinosaur...

Watching stream with commentary would be very interesting, I'd follow and watch for sure. MTGO axed daily events so tournaments are kind of out of picture. Someone from source should set up a tournament in cockatrice AND stream that tournament with commentary. :)

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

Edit 2: Mindlash, It's still outta my mind, that your Friend was able to identify me soly of my dices and appearance :D Greetings to him.

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Hehe yeah I showed him the picture of your deck and dices, because I am just not able to get some dices in mana colors that I really like and yours did look good. I still do not get why online shops only sell dices in packs of 50 or the ones who sell them as singles want you to get to 20 € order before shipping -.- It seems I am doomed to write down mana and storm till the end of days even in private games :D

Lars also has rough times here because he plays Jund and our friends are all playing Dredge, ANT, TES or Belcher :D Maybe some evil memories flashed in his mind while seeing your deck and dices at BOM :D

I am still unsure about what to play at the next big tournament in Hanau at the end of the year. After BOM I gave Timo's ANT list a try at a bigger tournament. Starting 4:0 I was pretty confident about the deck only to loose the following two rounds to RUG and Reanimator (the last one due to not finding business in a million cantrips after going off with PiF). Maybe I give Jona's list a try with additional stormspells after boarding and more businessspells in general it might have won me those games :/

I still like TES very much too...but there where two rough games versus tempo where my mana got raped that hard...I really wanted to bite the table :D But I guess I will take my TES cards with to Hanau for at least a trial or something like that. After going off no strom deck storms harder which is lots of fun to me :D

Greetings Chris

Edit:

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Originally Posted by Machahiko

Watching stream with commentary would be very interesting, I'd follow and watch for sure. MTGO axed daily events so tournaments are kind of out of picture. Someone from source should set up a tournament in cockatrice AND stream that tournament with commentary. :)

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I am not sure if it works. Aren't there some legal issues with Cockatrice and Hasbro? I don't know if sites like twitch and so on are ok with streaming this. Though I must admit the quality of the games would be a lot better in this way :)

Well, MTGO tournaments got axed, I guess you could still play the matches in MTGO but it would be a nightmare to have someone to do a commentary on these. MTGO also shuts out a lot of people who don't want to waste their money on a product that doesn't get developed at all and you don't have any security about how long your cards are going to be relevant there. What if MTGO just shuts down or tournaments never come back, your investment that could be over 1000€ would be lost forever.

The legal hassle between Hasbro, Wizards and cockatrice do make this hard and I don't want any troubles to the source due to this.

If you want to do something like this on modo though, I have most of the delver decks built and can play the bad guy for you :)
Or if you want to do the ever-delightful tes mirror I could do that too <3

Maybe it was more revealing that I said that I'm from Berlin and know Carsten. Lars only counted 1 + 1 together. Tbh, meeting all the awesome peeps that weekend was by far the best about BoM :)


While ANT has significant advantages against stifles and softcounters due to Cabal Ritual and PIF to flashback the Discard, the hatebear issue favors TES because you are simply faster than those. However, the combination of stuff like hatebears, counters and/or discard across recent archtypes is a problem for both storm-subtypes and with either you'll stumble at some point. I'm still trying to find a solution, regardless of the storm-subtype.

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Originally Posted by deviant

If you want to do something like this on modo though, I have most of the delver decks built and can play the bad guy for you :)
Or if you want to do the ever-delightful tes mirror I could do that too <3

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I can play the storm mirror with Carsten Kotter or my Protegé Kai every week ... i'm satisfied ;)

I still don't have a MODO account; not planning to make one tbh

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

While ANT has significant advantages against stifles and softcounters due to Cabal Ritual and PIF to flashback the Discard, the hatebear issue favors TES because you are simply faster than those. However, the combination of stuff like hatebears, counters and/or discard across recent archtypes is a problem for both storm-subtypes and with either you'll stumble at some point. I'm still trying to find a solution, regardless of the storm-subtype.

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Outrunning hatebears was my reason to take TES to BOM over ANT. I was exhausted of seeing turn 2 Teegs and Cannonists and go the long road with ANT every time while TES gave me some of those early (free) wins against those hatebear decks :) But it is good to have access to both decks and pick them dependant on my mood :D

Whats with Toxic Deluge? It is the only card to answer all hatebears as far as I know. But for ANT without Burning Wish I hate to reveal them to AN and in TES 3 CMC may be a bit to much for a wish target.

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Originally Posted by Mindlash

Outrunning hatebears was my reason to take TES to BOM over ANT. I was exhausted of seeing turn 2 Teegs and Cannonists and go the long road with ANT every time while TES gave me some of those early (free) wins against those hatebear decks :) But it is good to have access to both decks and pick them dependant on my mood :D

Whats with Toxic Deluge? It is the only card to answer all hatebears as far as I know. But for ANT without Burning Wish I hate to reveal them to AN and in TES 3 CMC may be a bit to much for a wish target.

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Yes, the deck did a good work overwhelming D&T round 1 in the Mainevent for me. :)

If a single hatebear would be a problem, Disfigure, Pyroclasm or DoN would do the trick too without killing you off AN flips or preventing AN due to the overall lifeloss as a result of using the card. 3cc is still a lot of mana to have available.

The Problem is that boarding solutions to permaments doesn't help with fighting through countermagic, nor is Silence able to overcome Counter + Discard/Hatebear which was a problem at the BoM and is since when

TES Report
sdematt’s Vancouver Legacy Fall Classic

I started off with Lemnear’s list and considered a few changes:
1- Ari and Bryant both said they regretting not having the 2nd SB discard to board one in.
2- I havent sided in my decays in month’s so im gonna try and metagame with those slots instead.
3- My read on the meta was that nobody plays much delver, theres a ton of combo mirrors, and Matt is for sure on Junk. +1 Telemin, +1 Deathmark.

4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Dark Ritual
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
4 Burning Wish
3 Cabal Therapy
4 Silence
1 Ad Nauseam
3 Misty Rainforest
4 Gemstone Mine
2 City of Brass
3 Chrome Mox
4 Rite of Flame
1 Empty the Warrens
4 Infernal Tutor
SB: 1 Massacre
SB: 1 Deathmark
SB: 1 Telemin Performance
SB: 1 Cabal Therapy
SB: 1 Thoughtseize
SB: 2 Chain of Vapor
SB: 2 Xantid Swarm
SB: 1 Grapeshot
SB: 1 Empty the Warrens
SB: 1 Diminishing Returns
SB: 1 Past in Flames
SB: 1 Ill-Gotten Gains
SB: 1 Tendrils of Agony

Zach on UWR Delver

R1G1- Zach starts on the play with delver and clocks me hard. I try to diminishing returns with silence on my last turn but i whiff.
SB: -1 Infernal Tutor, -1 ponder//+1 Cabal therapy, +1 Chain of vapor
R1G2- I Probe and see force so i can’t blitz him, but he has no clock. We both develop for a while and i set up a protected past in flames kill before he can clock me out.
R1G3- Probe reveals some sweet counters but no clock again. I hit him with some cabal therapy and he taps out on turn 3 to play a geist. I look down at my notes and am sure he is missing a blue card to pitch to force now, so i ad nauseam and win.

1-0

Chad(Warfordium) on ANT
R2G1- I kept a loose one with ETW, therapy and silence. Chad starts with duress on my cabal therapy. I hold up silence while i brick on draws and chad is stuck on one swamp. Chad duresses my silence and passes. I hail mary and make goblins flashing back therapy on cabal ritual. Double hit! Chad has two turns to draw LED for a PIF loop, he finds it.
SB: -1 Empty//+1 Cabal Therapy
R2G2 - I keep double cantrip, silence, LED, and lands. Ponder and decide draw an LED and leave a ponder on top. Cast LEDx2. Pass. Chad duresses and takes my ponder in hand. I draw the ponder from the top, cast it, shuffle, draw an LED. Cast LED (3 in play now). hold up silence. pass.
Chad cantrips. pass. I draw land, pass. Chad duresses into a silence and passes. He looks ready to combo so this is my last turn to draw buisness. brick. pass the turn. chad kills me.

1-1

Kayda on Merfolk
R3G1 - I’m on the play with a possible turn one hand. I probe seeing daze and tons of fish. Ponder. Pass. Kayda plays Vial, passes. I Make 12 goblins around daze and it gets there in combat.
SB: -1 Infernal, -1 Chrome Mox, - 1 ponder//+2 Xantid swarm, +1 Cabal Therapy
R3G2 - Kayda starts with Cursecatcher, i follow with xantid swarm. She lays a second catcher. I probe and find out my xantid is VS a hand of merfolk and no counters, but Xantid cant do anything about the catchers. I have to get like 4 lands in play to do anything. on the turn before im dead i xantid and then burning wish, she catchers me down from 6 floating to 4 floating. i go for diminishing returns and draw blanks and die.
R3G3 - I turn one on the play Probe and brainstorm into making 16 goblins. Gets there.

2-1

Matt(sdematt) on GBWrock
R4G1 - I’m on the play with a possible blitz but i brick my turn 1 brainstorm. Matt hits me back with some discard into lilliana. I peel an infernal with all my mana on board and go into an adnauseam from 15 and win.
SB: -4 silence, -1 empty//+2 chain of vapor, +1cabal therapy +1 Thoughtseize +1 Deathmark
R4G2 - Matt mulls to 6 and thoughtseizes me. I return fire and my thoughtseize reveals his 5 lands in hand! I rebuild for a turn or two and adnauseam into a win.

3-1

Marcel on UWR delver
R5G1 - We grind for a while and he beats me down. I get to Silence Diminishing Returns with UBR floating but i miss.
SB: -1 Infernal Tutor, -1 Ponder // +1 Cabal Therapy +1 Chain of Vapor
R5G2 - I turn 2 probe seeing Bolt, Bolt, Brainstorm, Brainstorm, Stoneforge, land. I therapy on brainstorms, make 14 goblins, flashback therapy on lightning bolt. Bring him to exactly 0 through batterskull.
R5G3 - We grind but then he gets me with probe seeing my 3 LEDS in hand and then Meddling mage on LED. Damn! Marcel wins.

3-2

*TOP8*
We had 17 players so even though i was 3-2 i made it to the top8 in 8th place.

Trenton on Shardless BUG (was 5-0 in swiss so hes on the play)
R6G1 - He mulls to 6 and doesnt have a discard spell for me. I gamble on his FoW and clear with 14 goblins that he cant answer.
SB: -1 infernal, -1 Chrome mox, -1 Poder//+2 Xantid Swarm +1 Cabal Therapy
R6G2 - He mulls to 6 again and lacks a spell again. I probe him seeing FOW but no blue card. I draw into a blitz for 16 goblins. He tries to draw golgari charm for 2 turns but cant find it.

4-2

Marcel on UWR delver (same from the swiss)
R7G1 - I’m on the draw and keep a good hand for grinding. I spend all game fighting his hand while he beats me down. I even bluff a couple silences to bait his counters out. I end up playing my 6th land and casting adnauseam from 9 but it doesnt get there.
SB: -1 Infernal tutor -1 Ponder // +1 Chain of Vapor +1 Cabal Therapy
R7G2 - I probe turn one and see Marcel kept a no land hand with live FOW. His hand is so good that if he draws a land i don’t think i can win though. I try to assemble a protected kill but he has a land by that time. We continue to grind for many many turns but since hes on the back foot from not getting an early clock. I end up protecting a huge past in flames and he scoops.
R7G3 - I probe and see no FOW, make 14 goblins and he cant answer it.

5-2

Finals VS Matt (sdematt)

R8G1 - I’m on the draw and it takes me a couple turns to find a kill through thoughtseize wasteland and lilliana. I end up burning wishing for diminishing returns, and casting it the next turn with R floating and a free land drop. It gets there into lethal tendrils.
SB: -4 silence, -1 empty//+2 chain of vapor, +1cabal therapy +1 Thoughtseize +1 Deathmark
R8G2 - Matt mulls to 6 and thoughtseizes me. I don’t have a good play and he follows with Teeg, Thalia, Tarmogoyf, Double Cabal therapy. I scoop.
R8G3 - I Cabal therapy Matt’s thalia. He Thoughtseizes me. I set up for an Adnauseam floating 6 on my next turn. He runs a thalia off the top! Damn! I cast my two LEDs, make a land drop, pass. He’s got two deathrites now, passes. If i draw a land or a burning wish i can either adnauseam with 6 floating even with thalia in play, or burning wish into massacre kill all his dudes. But i miss. He beats me down. I miss again. I’m dead!

5-3 (which somehow made me second place!) I win a SP Volcanic Island.

Hindsight:
-The deathmark might as well have been a karakas, then i could bring it in against rug for extra daze protection at least.
-I didn't draw burning wish against chad but i think it was the right call having Telemin SB.
-2 xantid swarms SB is enough
-2 discard spells SB is important, i wished for thoughtseize a lot while grinding VS tempo.
-Massacre didn't get cast but it's nice knowing your burning wishes are secret pyroclasms.
-No regrets cutting Abrupt Decays.
-Boarding up to 4 cabal therapy main while still rocking the goblins plan is sweet. Name FOW, Goblins, Flashback naming stoneforge/golgari charm/pernicious deed/pyroclasm/electrickery/engineered explosives ETC. Thanks Lemnear.

If anyone would have boarded differently let me know how and why, i am a humble learner of storm. Thank you!

Was a bit confused as you refered to me for the list, as I run the 4th fetch over the 3rd Mox as you know until I realized that you talked about the Therapies and the Telemin. :)

I'm investigating the options to replace the Chains (as Leyline left my Metagame and I rarely saw it at the BoM) to boost the Tempo-matchup. Having 1-2 additional copies of EtW in the SB to board in those in a deck with 4 CT in the 75 is something I have to take a closer look at to mimic the gameplan of Grinding Station.

Don't you think it's time to let IGG go? ;)

Small remark: in your second game against UWR you need to take the SFM with the flashback as you might have realized ... That's what CT is for: prevent your opponent from finding a solution to the Goblins



Congratz!
Give your Volcanic a good-night-Kiss ;D

@Lemnear
Not ready to cut IGG. if i opened IT,BW,LED in my hand id be sad to not have that line available.

And yea i misjudged on that game deffinitly. He was better off not having to draw another stoneforge.

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

Was a bit confused as you refered to me for the list, as I run the 4th fetch over the 3rd Mox as you know until I realized that you talked about the Therapies and the Telemin. :)

I'm investigating the options to replace the Chains (as Leyline left my Metagame and I rarely saw it at the BoM) to boost the Tempo-matchup. Having 1-2 additional copies of EtW in the SB to board in those in a deck with 4 CT in the 75 is something I have to take a closer look at to mimic the gameplan of Grinding Station.

Don't you think it's time to let IGG go? ;)

Small remark: in your second game against UWR you need to take the SFM with the flashback as you might have realized ... That's what CT is for: prevent your opponent from finding a solution to the Goblins



Congratz!
Give your Volcanic a good-night-Kiss ;D

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I agree with maybe finding another slot for an empty or two in the board. Like I said on the last page, I think boarding in an empty to possibly improve your odds of drawing it seems pretty solid vs the tempo MU, which seems to be a pretty popular archetype at the moment.

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Originally Posted by Megadeus

I agree with maybe finding another slot for an empty or two in the board. Like I said on the last page, I think boarding in an empty to possibly improve your odds of drawing it seems pretty solid vs the tempo MU, which seems to be a pretty popular archetype at the moment.

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The idea of 3 EtW in the side popped up at the BoM as we were drunk in our hotel ... If i remember correctly :)

The difference is that boarding in the single copy of EtW kills your 4 Wishes in that matchup and the only option to increase natural EtW-draws postboard is to run more of them in the board. Obviously that results in you boarding out the Ad Nauseam + X for that idea. But atm it's just exactly that: an idea to test

I agree in full, running the full set of ETW and Therapies has been amazing vs Delver.dec post-board. I think it's time we cut the Xantid Swarms, stop metagaming vs Reanimator and Show&Tell and just put all of our concentration into winning vs Delver and Miracles. At this point, I don't think we need anything more than Telemin Performance or Bribery vs Reanimator and Show&Tell, the Xantid Swarms are just awkward without a gold land because you can't win on the same turn you cast it like Silence and I'm really tired of boarding in Tropical Island for mana stability.

A SB like,

1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Grape Shot
3 Empty the Warrens
1 Diminishing Returns
1 Past in Flames
1 Telemin Performance
1 Cabal Therapy
3 Abrupt Decay

Seems pretty bare bones

I think you're going to find that if you stick with that SB plan tho' that you're going to want the 3rd Chrome Mox in order to be able to shit out Goblins T1.

Idk I like Swarm. It is actually decent vs those MU's because it allows for a silence that they can't interact with. It may actually be worse vs SnT though since Im sure some of the time your SnT opponent will be boarding in Pyroclasm.

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Originally Posted by Final Fortune

I agree in full, running the full set of ETW and Therapies has been amazing vs Delver.dec post-board. I think it's time we cut the Xantid Swarms, stop metagaming vs Reanimator and Show&Tell and just put all of our concentration into winning vs Delver, hatebears and Miracles. At this point, I don't think we need anything more than Telemin Performance or Bribery vs Reanimator and Show&Tell, the Xantid Swarms are just awkward without a gold land because you can't win on the same turn you cast it like Silence and I'm really tired of boarding in Tropical Island for mana stability.

A SB like,

1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Grape Shot
3 Empty the Warrens
1 Diminishing Returns
1 Past in Flames
1 Telemin Performance
1 Cabal Therapy
3 Abrupt Decay

Seems pretty bare bones

I think you're going to find that if you stick with that SB plan tho' that you're going to want the 3rd Chrome Mox in order to be able to shit out Goblins T1.

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Exactly the SB I had in mind (still wanted to keep 3 Swarms as your suggested board is only 12 cards) and the return of the 3rd Mox was in the back of my head as well, as we rely more on the natural T1 EtW and need less stable mana to fight through defense that once was my idea by switching the Mox for the 4th fetch


Edit: fixed your post

Edit 2: I really like the idea of profiting more from the speed of the deck and to race hatebears.

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Originally Posted by Megadeus

Idk I like Swarm. It is actually decent vs those MU's because it allows for a silence that they can't interact with. It may actually be worse vs SnT though since Im sure some of the time your SnT opponent will be boarding in Pyroclasm.

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The problem I have with Xantid Swarm is that one of its strengths is being able to cast it before the combo turn in order to recouperate the mana, and our manabase runs at 6 as opposed to 8 golden lands compared to the old days so the inherent efficiency of the card is much less and really requires a Tropical Island in the SB. Assumming you do fetch the Tropical Island in order to cast the Xantid Swarm, you now have an otherwise worthless land on the board for comboing out - so it's kind of a vicious cycle.

Personally, I'm pretty happy with just the base 8 disruption spells in the deck (4 Silence/4 Therapy) and then just hurling tokens at them. Playing the full set of ETW was old tech, but we never played it with a full set of Therapy before - which makes it pretty insane.

I like it in theory. I'm just not sure how good it is. I mean testing definitely needs to be done, but it seems like a decent plan. Though withtheup tick in golgari charm and even zealous persecution i guess we shall see

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Originally Posted by Megadeus

I like it in theory. I'm just not sure how good it is. I mean testing definitely needs to be done, but it seems like a decent plan. Though withtheup tick in golgari charm and even zealous persecution i guess we shall see

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Yes, those are the options I already faced at the BoM weekend. I admit, I lived the dream twice there:

1) Blindcall FoW with Therapy, strip a FoW, make 12 Goblins, flashback for ZP in his hand while only having 1 mana left, win

2) he Drops SFM turn 3, digs for Skull, I Probe to see Spell Pierce and Skull + X, Therapy which he pierces, making 14 Goblins, flashback CT for Skull, win

For references:

5-Color-Goblins

4 Gemstone Mine
2 City of Brass
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Flooded Strand
3 Chrome Mox
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion’s Eye Diamond
4 Dark Ritual
4 Rite of Flame
4 Burning Wish
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Silence
3 Cabal Therapy
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Ad Nauseam


3 Xantid Swarm
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Cabal Therapy
1 Telemin Performance
1 Grapeshot
3 Empty the Warrens
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Past in Flames
1 Diminishing Returns



Edit: 27 users browsing?! Wow

My newest list is on the opening post.

I think with the rise of UWr, along with the continuation of RUG it's tough to justify not playing Carpet of Flowers. I've made room by shaving the second discard spell and the two copies of Chain of Vapor. I've replaced one of the Chains with Revoke Existence so that we're not absolutely cold to Leyline of Sanctity (Note Lemnear's list up above lacks an answer). The problem with not having an answer to Leyline is that we'll be forced to make Goblins in a match-up where they could play out kill us after we pass the turn. That said, I'm not sold on Revoke. Part of me wonders if it should still be a Chain of Vapor for more versatility, the brightside is we'll have a Wishable answer to non-creature problems.

EDIT: Also, Lemnear, it's called Five-Color-Aggro-Goblins.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bryant Cook

My newest list is on the opening post.

I think with the rise of UWr, along with the continuation of RUG it's tough to justify not playing Carpet of Flowers. I've made room by shaving the second discard spell and the two copies of Chain of Vapor. I've replaced one of the Chains with Revoke Existence so that we're not absolutely cold to Leyline of Sanctity (Note Lemnear's list up above lacks an answer). The problem with not having an answer to Leyline is that we'll be forced to make Goblins in a match-up where they could play out kill us after we pass the turn. That said, I'm not sold on Revoke. Part of me wonders if it should still be a Chain of Vapor for more versatility, the brightside is we'll have a Wishable answer to non-creature problems.

---

As I mentioned a few posts above, I feel that there are just too few Leylines in circulation to still keep dedicated hate and I'm willing to have a blind-spot against that card for the Moment which indeed Limits my options to Goblins + Silence-Walk (post AN).

I thought about Carpet, but don't you think that the possible double-application of EtW against RUG, UWR, etc. as well as against hatebears (D&T and Maverick on the rise again; Cannonist a common SB option for UWR, Esperblade and Miracles) make it a more flexible and valuable slot?


Edit: can we make a deal about calling it 5-Color-Mindtwist-Aggro-Goblins pal? ;D

Edit 2: any plans to Review the sideboarding-guide after you'll find conclusion about Evoke Existance? I feel the changing meta to more diverse hate and your latest changes in the deck might make that desireable.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lemnear

As I mentioned a few posts above, I feel that there are just too few Leylines in circulation to still keep dedicated hate and I'm willing to have a blind-spot against that card for the Moment which indeed Limits my options to Goblins + Silence-Walk (post AN).

I thought about Carpet, but don't you think that the possible double-application of EtW against RUG, UWR, etc. as well as against hatebears (D&T and Maverick on the rise again; Cannonist a common SB option for UWR, Esperblade and Miracles) make it a more flexible and valuable slot?


Edit: can we make a deal about calling it 5-Color-Mindtwist-Aggro-Goblins pal? ;D

Edit 2: any plans to Review the sideboarding-guide after you'll find conclusion about Evoke Existance? I feel the changing meta to more diverse hate and your latest changes in the deck might make that desireable.

---

Sneak Show is as large as ever, Omni is still a deck. I disagree that Leyline's numbers have dwindled.

Have you tested multiple Emptys? It's great in theory, awful in practice. It essentially shuts off Ad Nauseam and makes mass removal extremely good against us, especially Engineered Explosives since we can't discard it after we make Goblins.

As for the "Mind twist", I'm on the fence about the third MD Therapy vs. Thoughtseize. As of right now I'm still on Thoughtseize, but I could see it changing.

I'm not updating the sideboarding guide until I have a more solidified list. Everything is in flux at the moment and it would be pointless as I would have to update it if it changed again anytime soon.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bryant Cook

Sneak Show is as large as ever, Omni is still a deck. I disagree that Leyline's numbers have dwindled.

Have you tested multiple Emptys? It's great in theory, awful in practice. It essentially shuts off Ad Nauseam and makes mass removal extremely good against us, especially Engineered Explosives since we can't discard it after we make Goblins.

As for the "Mind twist", I'm on the fence about the third MD Therapy vs. Thoughtseize. As of right now I'm still on Thoughtseize, but I could see it changing.

I'm not updating the sideboarding guide until I have a more solidified list. Everything is in flux at the moment and it would be pointless as I would have to update it if it changed again anytime soon.

---

@Leyline:
Took the BoM and local metagame into consideration. Won't dare to give a general advice here

@EtW:
I'm still theorycrafting atm and can't test before Thursday. I'm afraid to sit behind a Carpet of Flowers for +1/+2 mana while staring at Cannonist /Meddling Mage or after losing my Business Spell to discard. Burned Kid, I guess :/
Strange gut-feeling about the masses of green cards in the SB of your OP

@Discard-suite:
I'm not sure how relevant the "5th peek" vs. "The lifeloss" vs. "The Flashback" really is. It depends a lot on personal experiences and if you sometimes Wish is would be the other card. Since we are beyond the limits of Duress to not being able to save us from Thalia/SFM/Cannonist/etc. I think this isn't a topic that deserves that much attention other than underlining the Synergy with an increased EtW-count, but I bored you and the fellow readers of this thread already enough with that ;)

@Sideboard-guide:
That's what I expected and hinted at by mentioning Evoke Existance. Was just a small reminder :)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lemnear

@Leyline:
Took the BoM and local metagame into consideration. Won't dare to give a general advice here

@EtW:
I'm still theorycrafting atm and can't test before Thursday. I'm afraid to sit behind a Carpet of Flowers for +1/+2 mana while staring at Cannonist /Meddling Mage or after losing my Business Spell to discard. Burned Kid, I guess :/
Strange gut-feeling about the masses of green cards in the SB of your OP

@Discard-suite:
I'm not sure how relevant the "5th peek" vs. "The lifeloss" vs. "The Flashback" really is. It depends a lot on personal experiences and if you sometimes Wish is would be the other card. Since we are beyond the limits of Duress to not being able to save us from Thalia/SFM/Cannonist/etc. I think this isn't a topic that deserves that much attention other than underlining the Synergy with an increased EtW-count, but I bored you and the fellow readers of this thread already enough with that ;)

@Sideboard-guide:
That's what I expected and hinted at by mentioning Evoke Existance. Was just a small reminder :)

---

It's tough to argue Carpet of Flowers vs Hate bears as I don't think the sideboard discard spell improves the match-up more than the ability to negate Daze/Pierce/Flusterstorm.

Im going to test three Therapy maindeck this week. I actually just made the physical switch, we'll see how it goes.

A thought I've had was to move the Tropical main and then make the two slots (Tropical & Revokes) into Chains again. I don't know if this is a bad idea though, it would likely be over a Mox.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bryant Cook

It's tough to argue Carpet of Flowers vs Hate bears as I don't think the sideboard discard spell improves the match-up more than the ability to negate Daze/Pierce/Flusterstorm.

Im going to test three Therapy maindeck this week. I actually just made the physical switch, we'll see how it goes.

A thought I've had was to move the Tropical main and then made the two Revokes Chains again. I don't know if this is a bad idea though, it would likely be over a Mox.

---

Just thought that more EtW's might solve both topics. Time will tell.

As I made the switch of -1 Mox +1 Fetch I had made a calculation for AN flips and such. Not sure where it ended up :/
Would be surprised to see you making that move after fighting for the 3rd Mox tbh. I sure get the intention here, but I wonder if it's wise to alter the manabase that way as Tropical adds nothing to your G1


Edit: still waiting for a fetchable Rainbow-Land *sigh*

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lemnear

Just thought that more EtW's might solve both topics. Time will tell.

As I made the switch of -1 Mox +1 Fetch I had made a calculation for AN flips and such. Not sure where it ended up :/
Would be surprised to see you making that move after fighting for the 3rd Mox tbh. I sure get the intention here, but I wonder if it's wise to alter the manabase that way as Tropical adds nothing to your G1

---

You'll find that additional Empties makes the deck weaker due to Ad Nauseam is a much weaker option at that point.

I think the third mox is a necessary evil, but I also am trying to optimize the deck as much as possible. What I've been doing in this thread over the last few hours is really just stream of thought, I may just make the Revoke a Chain again and call it for now. Who knows.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bryant Cook

You'll find that additional Empties makes the deck weaker due to Ad Nauseam is a much weaker option at that point.

I think the third mox is a necessary evil, but I also am trying to optimize the deck as much as possible. What I've been doing in this thread over the last few hours is really just stream of thought, I may just make the Revoke a Chain again and call it for now. Who knows.

---

I opted to board AN out there anyways as I had a lot of trouble resolving it for value after I fought through Tempo.decs defense in the recent past while getting smacked by Delver, Mongeese or Lightning Bolts left and right :(

That's all just Brainstorming here. I enjoy sharing thoughts on the matter.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lemnear

I opted to board AN out there anyways as I had a lot of trouble resolving it for value after I fought through Tempo.decs defense in the recent past while getting smacked by Delver, Mongeese or Lightning Bolts left and right :(

That's all just Brainstorming here. I enjoy sharing thoughts on the matter.

---

So... you're just willing to concede to any RUG/UWr/Grixis player smart enough to play Engineered Explosives/Electricery? I understand that we have Therapy, but they have ways to hide their answers. It seems like your eggs are all in one basket.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bryant Cook

So... you're just willing to concede to any RUG/UWr/Grixis player smart enough to play Engineered Explosives/Electricery? I understand that we have Therapy, but they have ways to hide their answers. It seems like your eggs are all in one basket.

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Wouldn't call it that way, since there are still all SB Engines as well as the natural spellchain available, which appears a bit underused in general.

I'm just willing to remove 1 Ad Nauseam as kill in the face of Pierce/Daze/FoW to add 2 biz-spells in the form of EtW facing mostly Stifle and optional 2-3 sweepers no one really mulligans into in fear of AN and the Tendrils-kill.

I can see myself doing this for the sake of testing

Bryant,
What would you side out if you are bringing in Carpet/Carpet/Trop or Carpet/Carpet/Trop/Therapy VS Delver?