[Deck] UW(x) Landstill

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Originally Posted by RogueMTG

Alternatively I've had cases where I've V-cliqued someone, or seen their hand from a Land Grant, and then slammed MM down on their mana sources or only available tutor rather than a kill condition. However, blindly naming something that doesn't turn your MM into an "answer me or lose" (ie: non-kill conditions) seems pretty foolish.

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Mayk0l pretty much nailed it in his post.
One addition to the above.
I agree MM can be a hosing after a vendillion clique, but seriously how many of each are you playing anyway to consistently make such a play? Not enough will probably be the right answer...

I think this is a situation where you'll have to trust the Dutch metagame.
They have several very good ANT players, and after serious testing done by several Landstill players, canonnist was unanimously considered as the best answer in that particular match-up, where MM is considered to be sub-par.

In which other matchups do you guys consider to bring in Canonnist?
Maybe against Dredge? I'm not sure...

Ok, Im convinced on the canonist topic.

So how looks the sideboard?
And which matchups we want to improve with our sideboard?

Board:

4x Ethersworn Canonist
+ 0-4 Spell Pierce as hate vs combo

Graveyard hate vs ichorid, loam, reanimator:
3-4 Relic of Progenitus
0-2 Tormad's Crypt ?
Extirpate (also nice in the control mirror and very nice vs Reanimator and Loam)

Stuff vs Burn, goyf sligh, zoo:
2x circle of protection: Red
0-4 Blue elemental blast

E. Plague vs Tribal ?


Hm, I would need 20 sideboard slots.

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Originally Posted by i_need_the_extra_turns

Ok, Im convinced on the canonist topic.

So how looks the sideboard?
And which matchups we want to improve with our sideboard?

Board:

4x Ethersworn Canonist
+ 0-4 Spell Pierce as hate vs combo

Graveyard hate vs ichorid, loam, reanimator:
3-4 Relic of Progenitus
0-2 Tormad's Crypt ?
Extirpate (also nice in the control mirror and very nice vs Reanimator and Loam)

Stuff vs Burn, goyf sligh, zoo:
2x circle of protection: Red
0-4 Blue elemental blast

E. Plague vs Tribal ?


Hm, I would need 20 sideboard slots.

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Firespout for Tribal and Zoo.
I like the look of the Red splash as Vindicate is great but can probably be lived without and Black doesn't offer any great SB cards (nothing better than REB anyway).

That is if your not running Extripicate as an Iona solution.

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Originally Posted by Reagens

Mayk0l pretty much nailed it in his post.
One addition to the above.
I agree MM can be a hosing after a vendillion clique, but seriously how many of each are you playing anyway to consistently make such a play? Not enough will probably be the right answer...

I think this is a situation where you'll have to trust the Dutch metagame.
They have several very good ANT players, and after serious testing done by several Landstill players, canonnist was unanimously considered as the best answer in that particular match-up, where MM is considered to be sub-par.

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I'll admit my experience may be skewed a bit because of context, lately I've been playing with 2-3 Duress and 1-2 Clique in the side which presents a fair amount of opportunity to gather information. Also people here tend to play either TES or Belcher, so I can't speak to playing against Doomsday unfortunately. I'm not sure making the switch to Canonist would be totally worth it as MM seems to have more value in other matchups, plus it ups your blue count for an early FoW, but you've convinced me to at least try Canonist out again.

@FredMaster: I've seen Canonist be very good against Canadian Thresh, they tend to side out most of their burn and only being able to play one spell a turn slows them down considerably, but I'm not sure where else they'd come in.

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Originally Posted by RogueMTG

@FredMaster: I've seen Canonist be very good against Canadian Thresh, they tend to side out most of their burn and only being able to play one spell a turn slows them down considerably, but I'm not sure where else they'd come in.

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Just out of curiosity, why would Tempo Thresh board out Burn? Isn't it the only reach they have against us?

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Originally Posted by Mayk0l

Just out of curiosity, why would Tempo Thresh board out Burn? Isn't it the only reach they have against us?

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Probably to maintain creature threat density while having their K. Grip / Spell Pierce package in. I've had the same boarding happen against me with CT before. Canonist is great against CT, btw; they have enough cantrip spells that the one spell limit (essentially) slows them down by a lot.

If they bring in Spell Pierce and REBs, do they need Spell Snare? Most lists only run 5-6 cards that cost 2, (Standstill and Counterspell) and REBs counter those in addition to Brainstorms, Fact or Fictions or Snares/Forces from Landstill.

I'm not going to discuss the boarding plan of TT against us, although boarding REB and even Krosan grip (unless they saw a humility/moat) is weak.
I can also see why canonnist can be useful. Even when it gets burned it's one burn spell less at your head.

@RogueMTG: belcher and to a (very) lesser extent TES is quite different from ANT. ANT just throws chant effects at you until they are sure you can't counter anymore (or they feel they are running out of time) and then go off. So if you make them answer your canonnist first they probably lost valuable time before they can start drawing out your counters. It's a solid game plan.

@I_need_the_extra_turns:

My sideboard at the moment:

4 canonnist
3 extirpate
1 crucible
1 ajani gold-mane
1 path to exile
1 enlightened tutor
4 engineered plague

As you can see I use extirpate as a flex slot both for gy based strategies and for combo. Extirpate is quite useful against combo and prime targets are mystical tutor (right after they cast it), orim's chant, LED and dark ritual)
I'm absolutely not happy with the tutor at the moment, but that's another discussion.

I went 6th in Iserlohn February with my new list =):


// Lands
2 [UNH] Plains
3 [UNH] Island
4 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (1)
3 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
4 [B] Tundra
3 [A] Tropical Island
4 [ON] Flooded Strand

// Creatures
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
1 [SC] Eternal Dragon

// Spells
3 [IN] Fact or Fiction
3 [ZEN] Spell Pierce
2 [OD] Standstill
4 [BD] Brainstorm
4 [DIS] Spell Snare
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [R] Swords to Plowshares
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
2 [ALA] Elspeth, Knight-Errant
3 [7E] Wrath of God

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [CS] Counterbalance
SB: 2 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 3 [CFX] Path to Exile
SB: 2 [SHM] Kitchen Finks
SB: 1 [TSP] Krosan Grip



I tested it some time and it performed up to my expectations. I think getting rid of all the clunky sorcery speed removal (3rd Wrath might leave the deck) was a huge step forward. Goyfs are amazing, they double as threads and removal and help to win the game in a timely fashion, I'm just soo sick of always being among the last ones to play.

Good to see some activity here.

Congratz on your finish! Do you have anything else to share about your experience? How many people were there? What match-ups did you face?

Your list has definitely taken an interesting direction with the green splash, how was Spell Pierce for you in the main deck? Was only 2 Standstill even worth it?

First of all congratz to you for the finish, as Rogue I like your idea with the green splash, seems like Goyf is worth it.

A few questions: How did you perform without the Explosiv as a cheap mass removal? You are running 3 Tops and 3 FoF's, this seems a little bit to much in my eyes, did you run in a situation where you disliked so much CA ? 2 Standstills look kinda random, is it even worth ? Was the addition of Spell Pierce a Meta call, if not how did you come up with them?

Anyway I personaly like the fact that Landstill doesn't "die", even if it seems to be a bit underplayed right now (especially in Germany =) ).

RogueMTG:

I think it were about 50 players there

Matchups:
Dreadstill Win
Belcher Win
Survival Win
Merfolk Win
Aggro Loam ID
Canadian ***** Lose


Every Card pulled its weight, numbers might seem confusing at first so I'll explain a little:

3 Spell Pierce: After the deck was "finished" I had 7 slots left for counters. I went with 4Snare/3 Pierce because Pierce is weaker lategame and they kinda have to replace the counterspells. I might add the 4th for a Wrath of God but after all that is a metagame decision, so there is a good chance i decide this the day before the next tournament.

3 Fact/3Top/2 Standstill:
Most players opt for ~ 7 Drawspells. I always start with 3 Top, since I need CB out of the board to get a positive combo MU. I tested 4 FoF first but cut 1 as i figured it would be too mana hungry. Since Top is a little weaker as a drawengine cutting 1 FoF and adding 2 Standstill seemed right and I never regretted it during testing.

The deck was originally designed without Standstill, since it sucks as a turn 2 play (draw 3 is good, tapping out not so much). Its more of a lategame card, the final nail in the coffin if you wanna put it that way =).


The manabase was great (leave aside 1 game^^). I wonder if a Forest in place of a Tropical would be worth it, thats something I didn't test quite well enough to be sure.





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Felidea:

Explosives are quite good, but I build this with the following in mind: Sorcery Speed is baaaaaaaad. Your opponents will hardly ever resolve their key spells, so EE loses a lot of its power.

I came up with Pierce after I tested them in my ITF sideboard. I was amazed how often it acted as a hardcounter. Counterspell was really clunky and since Goyf makes creatures a nuisance Spell Pierce was added over it.

I thik the Ca engine is right in numbers, 3 Top is the minimum for CB out of the board. I think it would be possible to go -1 FoF +1 Standstill but FoF seems stronger to me since it is instant speed. Even when I had it in hand, I never played Standstill on turn 2 over the day, tapping out just screams "Kill me" even if you get 3 cards out of it.


And yes, Germany is Landstill-dead right now, so I figured taking a shot at it might be worth it. Turned out it was =).

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Originally Posted by paK0

RogueMTG:


Felidea:

Explosives are quite good, but I build this with the following in mind: Sorcery Speed is baaaaaaaad. Your opponents will hardly ever resolve their key spells, so EE loses a lot of its power.

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But you play wrath of god. You should really play 3 EE instead of 3 wrath if you want to speed your deck up. For expample you cant take 9 dmg from a nacatle just to wrath him away. There are many 1-drops which you can handle with EE. Often as a 2for1.

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I thik the Ca engine is right in numbers, 3 Top is the minimum for CB out of the board. I think it would be possible to go -1 FoF +1 Standstill but FoF seems stronger to me since it is instant speed. Even when I had it in hand, I never played Standstill on turn 2 over the day, tapping out just screams "Kill me" even if you get 3 cards out of it.

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-1 FoF +1 standstill. Try it.
But in general, you are right, sorcery speed is bad, so dont play vindicate^^.

One question to your list:
Would it be better to make it 4c to play Deed and stalker if you want to play creatures. (4 goyf, 2 stalker, 4 deed, 3 EE) You can remove your double white mana spells.

Maybe:

23 Lands

4 Goyf
1-2 Tomstalker

4 spell snares
3 spell pierce
4 Force of will

4 brainstorm
3 Standstill
2 Fact or Fiction
2 Top

4 Swords
4 Deed
2 EE

Mh, Explosives are 3 Mana just to take care of a Nacatl.

I have tested this against Zoo quite some time and can honestly say it has a positive MU right now. The main problem I see with Explosives is that you need to sink at least 3 Mana into them. I might wanna have it against Vial, but otherwise it does too little.

WoG on the other hand is a gamewinner. I never lost a Game when I resolved it. 4 Mana and Sorcery speed is nothing to sneeze at, but overall I feel it is superior.

Thy are hard to compare anyways, WoG is an old fashioned sweeper while EE is a flexible answear. It might be a metagame consideration after all, but WoG has served me well and while I ran ITF EE were merely "ok". I assume there are metas where EE might be the better choice, but over here Wrath definately gets the nod.

Black is interesting indeed. However not for Stalker. BB is not something you achieve easily wenn you just wanna do a light splash =). Deed as a sweeper would be good, however it does not take care of Progenitus (which is kinda relevant) and costs at least the same Mana as WoG. Big plus for taking care of artifacts and enchantements though. I'm a big fanboy of Extirpate, so that would see the board.

While there is a lot to be gained from it it comes to the mana issues. 4/6 of the decks that I faced had some kind of mana denial, so going 4 colour (and mabe lower the basic count in the process) is something you have to consider carefully. Loosing Elspeth is another point, she is not something I let go of easily =).

So after all I feel 4c is not worth it. While it does improve the deck, it is not enough to excuse the messing with the manabase.

Overall it does not look too bad, but for the stated reasons I doubt this is the next step in improving the deck.

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Originally Posted by paK0

I have tested this against Zoo quite some time and can honestly say it has a positive MU right now.

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Your maindeck list looks pretty weak against Zoo to me. If they open with T1 creature, you have only Swords as an answer before turn 3 or so. By then that creature has usually gotten in for 4-6 damage which is huge for 1 mana. Sure you can run a Goyf out on t2 but it's pretty conditional where you want it to be bigger than a 2/3 to be relevant, and if they have a Path you cannot answer then you're looking at a blowout. I agree that EE does little to solve this. Actually your sideboard addresses it quite nicely with 3x Path and 2x Finks, so I'm going to assume that's what's giving you the positive matchup. Game 1 looks real tough though.

That said, the list looks sweet. Have you considered a Savannah so you can tutor :g: with Eternal Dragon or in those rare situations where you're short on colors and you anticipate needing :w::w: and :g: in the near future? I don't think having 6-7 total non-blue sources would screw you over too badly, especially considering all your maindeck blue spells require only :u:. If I were to pick it up I'd look to fit in 1-2 Path maindeck because of my meta. I feel like you're weakest in your first 2-3 turns (duh, it's Landstill), but after that you have access to so much library manipulation and complete bombs that if your opponent hasn't done some serious damage by turn 4 then they'll have a very difficult time winning. I think Path would help you get there with a higher life total more frequently, but the only card I would consider cutting would be Wrath, like you said, or possibly Eternal Dragon?

I like how your board is no-nonsense. 4+ cards for 3 of the worst matchups (dredge, storm and fast aggro) while pretty much ignoring the control mirror. I think that was pretty smart because a) Landstill is underplayed right now b) you can operate under standstill just fine and c) you already play cards like Fact and Spell Pierce that are deadly in the mirror anyway. How was singleton Krosan Grip?

Zoo is not as bad as it looks, props to the Goyfs. You hardly loose to creatures only, most of the time you end up with control and X life. The old Landstill lists have the problem that they cannot end the game in a timely fashion, so the Zoo player gets way too much time to topdeck the burn they need. Also trading Factories (if you have enough lands that is) is pretty sweet in slowing them down. But yeah while i think im closer to 50% then other Landstillst Zoo is always a tough fight, favourable for them.

As you noticed postboard it gets a lot better, overall the MU is in our favour, but never a bye.
After all it is really hard to give overall statements, since the Zoo versions vary so much.

The Savannah idea looks pretty nice. Definately something I have to test out, I opted for the maximum of blue sources but 1 cut might be ok. Well, only 5 cards need WW ans Else hardly needs Goyf support (although it is nice to have it). Still I'm going to look into it =).


The SB was really sweet, it was built with the fact in mind that combo is the most common MU over here (turned out it wasn't, but well). Unlike other Landstill we can put up a clock, backed up with counters and that should really bring them on the fences. CB out of the board makes things even better for us. Dropping the EE worsenes the Dredge MU, with 5 cards its doable, but overall I'm happy if I don't have to see it.

Grip was as singletons tend to be: random. It showed up only once and at this point i had Top, CB and Goyf, so it really didn't matter. I'll keep him in until I find something better.



About maindeck PtE: Dragon is not a sufficent cut since you would mess with the mana, in a fast meta another Land might be better, but I would not cut it for a Spell. I didn't really try to add more spotremoval, but off the top of my head I'd say:

If your meta is ligth on Combo (and Control) -3 Top +1 Standstill +2 Pte. Top is only really good in the long term and if you don't need CB Standstill is better.

Depending on the Creatures/Spell ratio in your meta Spell Pierce might lose some value, so PtE might fit in that spot. Cutting Wrath is always risky, since it wins so many games on its own, however it is slow. Tribal themes show up every once in a while here, so I like to keep it in, but if you figure PtE is more useful in the majority of Matchups feel free to cut WoG.

How about Jace, the Mind Sculptor as a one-of in this deck? It seems better than Jace Beleren. The only advantage Old Jace has is that it costs one mana less. While this is certainly not insignificant, Landstill generally doesn't have a hard time paying four mana for spells. Both Jaces can net you a card per turn, but Old Jace only gets you one off the top and costs you a loyalty counter. New Jace nets you are card by allowing you to brainstorm for free. Plus, the option of using the unsummon ability can be huge. Not to mention that you can build loyalty counters when you need to without allowing your opponent to draw a card. If you are going to play Jace, the newer version seems better, except against extremely aggresive decks in which you need to draw that card a turn earlier.

The thing is that I'm not sure if Jace is worth taking up a Fact or Fiction slot. I like FoF for its instant speed. I love playing it with more than four mana available and a brainstorm. You can dig eight cards deed into your deck that way. However, the new Jace is cool enough to make me want to test it.

Jace is cool indeed, however he does not fin into this deck IMHO (feel free to prove me wrong^^)

Instant speed really matters a lot. Legacy is blistering fast right now and as a contol deck you have to adapt. FoF is the best card for the Job, since I don't need to expose myself. Most of the time I cast my spells one or two turns later than the manacosts indicate. Having countermana open at every time is crucial. Fof gets around that requirement, which is huge. Jace is good after turn 5+ (assuming you hit your landdrops) but FoF is goot turn 4+ and is instant. There is a good chance that both win the game, should they resolve, so I'll obviously opt for the one that hits earlier.

Another thing i dislike about Jace: FoF resolves and you get 2-3 cards out of it. Jace resolves and he has done nothing. He is still in Bolt range and you need 2-3 turns to get as much benefit from him as from FoF. Most of the time protecting him should not be an issue but still he will die once in a while before he has done his thing.

I'd love to play the new Jace, but i guess this is just not the deck for him.

I agree, if I had to choose between resolving a jace or resolving a FoF, I would choose FoF so fast. Not only is it instant gratification and 5 cards deep, Jace just seems way too slow and fragile, espeically in such an aggressive format.

So I tested a similar List as pak0's on MWS / with my teammates and came up with a few changes (the most are personally preference ;) )

Lands (23)
2 Plains
2 Island
2 Wasland
4 Factory
3 Rainforest
3 Strand
3 Tundra
3 Tropical
1 Savannah

Creatures (5)
4 Goyf
1 Dragon

Removal (9)
4 StP
2 Path
3 Wrath

Counter (11)
4 FoW
4 Snare
3 Spell Pierce

Ca (10)
4 Brainstorm
3 Standstill
3 FoF

Win (3)
2 Elspeth
1 LftL

So as you can see I removed the Tops for a 3rd Standstill and 2 Paths ( I tryed EE first but with 4 Mishras / Goyfs I was able to stall Mongoose and other small Stuff (Vial might be a problem trough, even if we have a much faster clock now so 6 Sword effects and 3 Boardsweeper seem to be enough to handle Merfolk / Goblins).
LftL worked out pretty well, returning Wastelands, Mishras or even ordinary Lands back to your hand (it also helps with your FoF piles).
My Sieboard contains the following:
2 Path
3 Finks
3 Relics
2 Crypts
3 Canonists
2 Grips

I'm pretty sure that I'll play this list in two weeks at our weekly Legacy Event so I'll come up with a better report / analysis soon ;).

Loam is cute and all but when i tested it i hated it =).
The other thing I don't see: Why Canonists? Since you removed Top CB is no longer viable, but if you want combohate on a stick MM should get the nod IMHO.


I'm really looking forward to the report^^

I like MM & Canonist as combohate, but with a faster clock a "must answer card" such as Canonist seems to be the right choice in my eyes (together with Spell Pierce it looks easier to get to the 3rd Turn to cast him).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by paK0

Loam is cute and all but when i tested it i hated it =).
The other thing I don't see: Why Canonists? Since you removed Top CB is no longer viable, but if you want combohate on a stick MM should get the nod IMHO.


I'm really looking forward to the report^^

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We just had the whole MM vs Canonist debate for the last two pages if you want to check up on arguments for/against.

Nothing was really settled IMO, and I don't think it will be.

MM tends to be more versatile in more matchups, but Canonist tends to be better against ANT/Tendrils specifically. It comes down to what you perceive your meta to require & personal preference.

Yeah I'm looking forward to the report too. I'm curious how a more aggro approach will work out. Best of Luck to you!

On a different note, I've been toying with switching from UWb Landstill to UWr, splashing red for AV, Helix, and some sideboard cards. I'd really like to get some suggestions on the following list. I like Helix a lot more than Fire//Ice - I guess maybe that's just personal preference. Here it is:

4 Force of Will
3 Counterspell (is Spell Pierce really better??)
3 Spell Snare

4 Brainstorm
3 Standstill
3 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Cunning Wish (Wishboards are just too much fun for me...)

4 Lightning Helix
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Wrath of God
2 Engineered Explosives (looking to add a 3rd one)
1 Humility (an all-time favorite of mine!)

2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Ajani Vengeant

(the mana-base I'm not too sure about...)
4 Tundra
1 Plateau
1 Volcanic Island
4 Flooded Strand
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Arid Mesa
3 Wasteland
3 Mishra's Factory
1 Island
1 Mountain
1 Plains

Sideboard:
3 Relic of Progenitus
3 Red Elemental Blast
2 Blue Elemental Blast
2 Path to Exile
2 Pyroclasm
1 Mindbreak Trap
1 Return to Dust
1 Enlightened Tutor

I'm not too sure about some wishboard cards like M. Tutor, Pulse of the Field, Dismantling Blow, etc. If anyone has ideas for the wishboard or the deck at all, I'd love some suggestions! I've even entertained the idea of running Burning Wish in the main but when it came down to it, I couldn't think of cards to run in the board to justify B. Wish in the main. Thanks for reading!

21 Lands aren't enought richt now, especially when you fight against Wasteland and/or Stifle, I might add another basic Island and Plains (so you have enough Basics to cast either Elspeth, Wrath or CS).
The Helix looks great but a 3rd EE to blow away small stuff in the early game (without acces to W/R) is just better.
Besides Wrath or EE you have acces to another great boardsweeper: Firespout, better then Pyroclasm and faster/cheaper then Wrath (the badside: it can't kill Goyfs, Tombstalkers, any kind of Fea or Progenitus (but you got Humility to fix that).
If you run 3 Tops your Sideboard might benefit from 3/4 Counterbalances (I guess I'd cut the BeB/M Trap/1 Pyroclasm (or Firesput)).
In your current list Dismatling Blow looks better then RtD, because you can cast it under a Bloodmoon (without acces to WW) and Pulse is just a gamewinner for you.
I also tryed Starstorm as a boardsweeper in my wishboard, but it turned out as crap because having RR in the Midgame is nearly impossible / not worth it.
So all in all:
MD: -1 BS / -2 Helix, + 1 EE / 2 Basics
SB: - 2 BEB / -2 Pyroclasm / -1 RtD / -1 M. Trap, + 3 CB / +1 D. Blow / +1 Pulse / +1 Firespout

I couldn't find another card to cut so I choose BS, because 3Bs + 3Tops can do the job quite well.

Cheers

Felidae

From the list it seems to be more geared towards a slower metagame.

Ok, like Felidae said: You need more Lands. Personally I wouldn't touch a version with less than 23, more are better. Since you have no recursion engine for your Lands, Wasteland seems weak, cutting 1 for Factory 4 is the most obvious, but I would cut them entirely in favour of a more stable manabase.

The first thing I would get rid of is probaby Humility, but since you like it I'm a little hesitant on advice =).

I'm not sure bout the board, since this is a metachoice, but I really thing that 1 D.Blow and 1 Pulse are a given. If you expect some Dredge leave the trap in.

Sorry I forgot to add Academy Ruins to the list, so I've actually got 22 lands in it. However, I can see taking out a BStorm for a 23 land (4th basic) and I can also see taking out a Wasteland for a 4th Factory. I used to run 1 Crucible in this deck for a while and could fetch it with E. Tutor via Cunning Wish (round about I know). It was just too gimmicky and to expect to get a Wasteland-Crucible lock with only 1 CoW and 3 WL its not very likely. I know Firespout is much-preferred to Pyroclasm but is it simply because it of the extra 1 damage? Its not like its instant-speed, plus I'm never going to be casting it with G to hit Faeries or something.

Regarding the sideboard, what is the best GY-hate? There's Relic of Progenitus, Tormod's Crypt, Ravenous Trap, etc. etc. I'm torn as to which one to use. Too many choices!

@pak0:
What exactly makes you say that the list geared towards a slower metagame? I'm not really sure what you mean...


Thanks!

I went 4-2 at today's GPT with a Vindicate-List.
My Matchups:
Zoo 2-0
Merfolk 1-2
Senor Wheenie 2-0
Eva Green 0-2
Uwb Controlish 2-0
Zoo 2-1

I could add a few more words about the particular games (sometimes not), if wanted. I'll also edit my 75 if someone is interested.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dal9ll

Regarding the sideboard, what is the best GY-hate? There's Relic of Progenitus, Tormod's Crypt, Ravenous Trap, etc. etc. I'm torn as to which one to use. Too many choices!

@pak0:
What exactly makes you say that the list geared towards a slower metagame? I'm not really sure what you mean...


Thanks!

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Counterspell > Pierce

As well as EE + Cunning Wish. Mana intesive builds tend to perform better if they have the time to set up, so I assumed this from your list =).


For Graveyard hate you will get lots of different answears, since there is not a real consensus. My advice is the following:
Since you run Cunning Wish 1 Trap should be set. After that you sould know how many spaces you want to dedicate. These places should be split between Crypt and Relic. If there is a lot of Loam in your meta I'd go Relic > Crypt. If it is solely for Dredge i think Crypt is better. But I would never use only one, always mix them up. However this is my own opinion, several others will tell you otherwise, you just have to test what works best for you.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by paK0

For Graveyard hate you will get lots of different answears, since there is not a real consensus. My advice is the following:
Since you run Cunning Wish 1 Trap should be set. After that you sould know how many spaces you want to dedicate. These places should be split between Crypt and Relic. If there is a lot of Loam in your meta I'd go Relic > Crypt. If it is solely for Dredge i think Crypt is better. But I would never use only one, always mix them up. However this is my own opinion, several others will tell you otherwise, you just have to test what works best for you.

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Yes the key is to diversify the hate. Atm I play 1 trap, 1 extirpate and 1 crypt. Against dredge I side in 1 crypt and 1 tutor which adds 2 more GY-hate slots to the 3 wishes and is gg if you manage to get academy ruins going.

@Dal: As I said the cut to 3 BS would only make sense if you had nothing left to cut, with your Ruins as a 22th land you can easily keep the 4th BS (but I'd still cut 2 Helixes for a Basic/ 3rd EE).

@Fred: Greetz to the finish, its sad that you lost against Eva Green , what cards did you run in your SB? (I'd like to see a Preacher in there :D )

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Originally Posted by Felidae

@Fred: Greetz to the finish, its sad that you lost against Eva Green , what cards did you run in your SB? (I'd like to see a Preacher in there :D )

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Yeah the matches vs. Eva Green were really not satisfying. I remember that he had tons of pressure in game one (he also ran Dark Confidants).
In game 2 he had at least 2 Wastelands + 4 Sinkholes (Yes, all 4 of them) which screwed the crap out of me.

If was actually feeling good about my sideboard though. It looked like this:
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Ravenous Trap
3 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Negate
3 Kitchen Finks
3 Path to Exile

It's sad that I wasn't able to test my take on graveyard hate but on the other hand it's good since Dredge still wouldn't have been a good matchup.

Has anyone considered running Baneslayer as SB hate vs. Zoo? I'd imagine they side out their paths in the matchup, leaving them stone-cold to a 5/5 flying first strike lifelink. It's kinda slow, but you have enough stuff to slow them down, especially post-board, that you should be fine.

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Originally Posted by gamegeek2

Has anyone considered running Baneslayer as SB hate vs. Zoo? I'd imagine they side out their paths in the matchup, leaving them stone-cold to a 5/5 flying first strike lifelink. It's kinda slow, but you have enough stuff to slow them down, especially post-board, that you should be fine.

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I've had them keep PtE in to take out Factories before. BS seems really slow, since we don't really have *any* form of mana acceleration whatsoever. Assuming you are on the draw for g2, that's a lot of pressure to fend off for five turns to maybe drop a bomp. I would rather run more removal, or something easier on the curve, like Kitchen Finks.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Morbid-

I've had them keep PtE in to take out Factories before. BS seems really slow, since we don't really have *any* form of mana acceleration whatsoever. Assuming you are on the draw for g2, that's a lot of pressure to fend off for five turns to maybe drop a bomp. I would rather run more removal, or something easier on the curve, like Kitchen Finks.

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At that rate, if you're running UWB, would Vampire Nighthawk become an option? It's got lifelink, and it blocks and trades with Goyf/Tombstalker/Kird Apes/all kinds of dudes.

It seems to me that you'd want the life immediately from a 187 like Finks in burn-heavy matchups, but I wondered if anybody knew otherwise well enough to say.

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Originally Posted by coraz86

At that rate, if you're running UWB, would Vampire Nighthawk become an option? It's got lifelink, and it blocks and trades with Goyf/Tombstalker/Kird Apes/all kinds of dudes.

It seems to me that you'd want the life immediately from a 187 like Finks in burn-heavy matchups, but I wondered if anybody knew otherwise well enough to say.

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Eh, :b: is your third color, so I would say no. My UWb manabase only had 1x Sea, 1x Scrub, and 1x Swamp, so with double-:b: that's a pretty awkward requirement to fill and you'd have to retweak the manabase to accomodate. Nighthawk might be interesting if klaus's Speedstill list is still being played, though, no word on that in a while.

Is Zoo really that much a problem?
If they are not running price of progress you should be fine anyway.

Explosives is absolutely murder for them and when you resolve an elspeth they need to spend at least 2 burn spells to kill it giving you enormous CA. Post-board they have very little relevant SB options while you gain acces to life gain.

I agree with Morbid that any spell with double black is not an option with the current manabase. Baneslayer is waaaaaay to slow and even when they side out path game 2 it'll be back game 3 if they see you playing baneslayer thus reducing it's effectiveness too much...

Finks is definetly an option if burn is a big metagame presence.

Why looking for Zoo stuff?

3 Pte is really flexible, they are good against Zoo, Dredge, any kind of Tribal and most other creature based strategies. There are hardly any other cards that do this for 1cc at instant speed. With this said I would board 2-3 other Lifegain mechanics to support the aggro matchup. Since Zoo is the most dominant, Kitchen Finks are fine for me. If they would tend more towards Goyfsligh/Burn I think Pulse is the way to go.

So I played Landstill again at the latest Vestal tournament this past weekend, I ended up going 4-0-3, which landed me in 9th place of 78 on tie-breakers.

List:
4x Flooded Strand
3x Polluted Delta
4x Tundra
1x Underground Sea
1x Scrubland
2x Island
2x Plains
4x Mishra's Factory
2x Wasteland

2x Humility
2x DoJ
2x Elspeth

1x Wrath of God
1x Day of Judgement
3x Engineered Explosives
4x Swords to Plowshares

4x Brainstorm
3x Standstill
3x Top
2x Fact or Fiction

4x Force of Will
3x Counterspell
3x Spell Snare

Sideboard:
1x Echoing Truth
3x Meddling Mage
3x Path
3x Extirpate
1x Llawan
3x Negate
1x Crucible of Worlds

Mini-Report:

My memory is not the best, I didn't take any notes this time around, but I'll try and be as accurate as possible...

Round 1, Pro Bant, 2-1 (1-0):
Game 1: I'm not sure what he's playing but last time it was Reanimator, I keep a hand with some counters and lands. It becomes obvious he is not playing reanimator when he starts with a Forest -> hierarch. I swords the mana-dude and we enter into card advantage race that is eventually won by top finding Wrath and then Elsepth when we both have no cards in hand.

Game 2: I take a gamble on a powerful hand with Top & Removal, but get wrecked early by a wasteland cutting me off of double white, I take too long to stabilize and die to beats.

Game 3: No deck can deal with Progenitus quite like Landstill can.

Round 2, Countertop NO-Bant, 2-0 (2-0):
Game 1: He gets off to a solid start, landing dudes and protecting them, I fall to single digit life, but eventually I sweep all his dudes and Counter Balance with an EE to stabilize. He finds a dude and a Natural Order, but I have the Wrath and Elspeth takes the game.

Game 2: I keep a hand with three outs to Progenitus and lands. Llawan gets forced, Humility sticks.

Round 3, Crazy Horizon Canopy/Knight of the Reliquary/Crucible of Worlds/Stifle & Waste Dave Price Shenanigans, 1-1-1 (2-0-1):
Game 1: He Forces my turn 1 Top, but I have a second in hand which lets me sabiliize through his Stifle/Waste but I'm on low life. I manage to find and land a Humility with Force back up, it shortly takes the game.
Game 2: He has a super early Wastelock with crucible, I slow roll a fetch and try to get out of it with an EE @ 3, but he has the stifle. This game drags as I manage to get all of my Basics and a Top into play, but it's hard to resolve bombs through Daze & Spell Pierce on only 4 lands, he eventually takes it.
Game 3: I have a hand filled with removal but no counter magic he has a turn 3 wastelock that hurts my game significantly. I kill his guys until time is called, we never get to finish but he would most likely would have taken it.

Round 4, More crazy Winter Orb/Relic Barrier Shenanigans, 1-1-1 (2-0-2):
Game 1: I'm not sure what he's up to, he has a port tapping down one of my lands for the first few turns, eventually he plays a Relic Barrier, which lets me untap and drop an Elspeth. She goes all the way, even through 2 Propagandas, with Top hitting me land every turn.

Game 2: This game is much much long than the first, winter orb comes out early and slows us both down hard. Eventually he finds and has mana for a Relic Barrier, not thinking I said "Sure," filtered through my hand, looked at my untapped Island and Spell Snare in hand (chilling next to a now uncastable Elspeth and DoJ, *facepalm.* I proceed to do nothing for 30 minutes until he finds a way to kill me. We do fight over an EE at 2, but he wins the counter war.

Game 3: Much like game 2 except he doesn't have the Relic Barrier, we obviously never get even close to finishing.

Now that I got those pesky Draws out of the way early, it's time to win-out! ... right?

Round 5, Ugb Countertop with Stifle/Waste, 2-1 (3-0-2):

I know why I'm in the 2 draw bracket, I play Landstill, sometimes I'm awful at it, and I faced freaking Winter Orb.dec. This kid is here because he plays so slowly you're better off waiting for the Earth to be engulfed by the Sun than for him to make a play decision.

Game 1: I'm pretty shaken after the two Draws, they were long matches and I haven't had a break at all in the last two hours. I make an abundance of play mistakes this game, 2 for 1 myself a couple times, it just doesn't look pretty.

While sideboarding I took a deep breath and just told myself to relax and wake the fuck up.

Game 2: With my will re-steeled, my tight play comes back. I have all the answers for his threats and Counterbalance, he doesn't have any for my Humility + Factories + Decree.

Game 3: Much like game 2 but Elspeth shows up early, he can't come back from a defensive position.

Round 6, Quackenbush with GW Survival, 2-0 (4-0-2):

Game 1: I already pretty much never lose to Survival, Survival without blue is kind of a cakewalk. I kill all of his dudes (including Progenitus) and don't let survival resolve. Humility + Decree just ends the game.

Game 2: See game one, except it is way more drawn out. At one point he hardcasts Iona, to which I respond with a hardcast Force of Will.

There are two people in the 14 point bracked, me and Dave Price, but we already played so we both got paired down against 13 pointers, any draws would mean drawing out of the Top-8, so it's Win and In time.

Round 7, Nick with Canadian Thresh, 1-1-1 (4-0-3):

I really think this matchup is in our favor, I'm feeling confident to start the first game.

Game 1: I have an early Top that is just hits me land turn after turn, but stifle's and counters keep nailing my EE's to get rid of his Mongoose. Eventually I managed to kill it on 9 life. But I have to tap-out to do so, I'm holding 3 counterspell in hand and just need to untap to seal the deal. He's at a healthy life but only has two cards left. He draws for the turn. Bolt... bolt... bolt. Frown-town, way to peel like a champ.

Game 2: This is similar to the first except I don't get burned out. He just doesn't have enough ways to kill me, and has to go 3/4 for 1 on my threats with Spell Pierce and Daze's. Decree for 8 dudes, Swing, Decree for 8 more dudes, swing, takes the game.

Game 3: We have 7 minutes left for game 3, I shuffle up quickly, he Pile shuffle/Riffle shuffle/pile shuffles, mulls down to 4, shuffling the same each time, after what felt like 7 minutes went by, we start.

He lays a tropic, I take a gamble on it being his only land... and him not having stifle, and waste it turn 1. It works, but he rips a fetch off the top. I land a Top and double Factories, I start beating in for 3 / 4 a turn. I try an Elspeth turn 5 but it gets hit by Pierce, I probably should have waited another turn to play around it, obviously wasn't thinking clearly here, just wanted to Kill kill kill.

Time gets called with him on single digit life, I reduce it to 3 or so in turns but just can't kill him even though I have a strangle hold over the board and in cards. Given another turn or two my freshly plucked Decree would have most likely stolen the game, match, and a Top 8 slot. Alas it was not to be and the one other 15 Pointer snuck in ahead of me into 8th place on Tie-Breakers.

But I get a Foil Wasteland and a groovy play-mat for my troubles, I call it a good day and head out for Food.