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try GoyfSligh, its a loose zoo shell with 16-20 burn spells... its in the established deck forum... domain zoo is pretty much unplayable if there is any sort of tempo thresh presence, just run library, its better than bob and its ON colorQuote:
Originally Posted by jandax
I think this depends on a lot of factors. In a vacuum, the difference is still debatable for the reason you mentioned. However, I think there is variation in normal builds and even playstyle; for instance, the tendency to fetch basics, or if playing fireblast (and therefore need more mountains aka more nonbasics in the long run). So it is hard to say how susceptible either deck is to wasteland because small variations (such as running library, running a lot of lightning helix and other multicolored spells, etc.) can have a significant impact on that equation.Quote:
Originally Posted by jandax
I too prefer a little more burn but I don't like to go fully into GoyfSligh. I've been running:Quote:
Originally Posted by jandax
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
3 Lightning Helix
2 FireBlast
forever and I love it. The only exception is Helix which sees a few too many Spell Snares these days. I should probably change those to Rift Bolt.
To the three previous posters who answered my questions:
1) Goyf sligh is weaksauce, there are better glass cannons out there in the format.
2)I totally understand what you mean, and would look at the differences out of a vacuum rather than in a vacuum. The reason being; Goyf in a vacuum is no different from a Steppe Linx. It probably just comes down to player preference and style.
3) I hear ya on that package, although because I run a pair of libraries Id do four Helix and three Chain Lightnings, just personal preference. That Healing Salve helps a ton more often than not.
And for refference, my list isnt atypical, although I do like a little more meat though it may prove to be less than optimal
4 goyf
4 pridemage
4 kirds
4 nacatl
3 lavamancer
2 KotR
2 throctar
4 Bolt
4 Helix
4 Path
2 jitte
2 library
4 Mesa-Foothills-Heath
3 Taiga
2 Plateau
1 Savannah
1 forest
1 plains
1 mountain
SB
3 Teeg/Crypt/Choke/Grudge/Shusher
Id probably cut the throctars and one ape for three Chain Lightning. If I didnt run 12 fetchlands Id leave in the throctars and add some canopies. Otherwise only practice will make perfect. Ive only played in two tournaments with this deck, 2nd place the first one and scrubbed out the second one. Definitely tighter play would have warranted better results. This isnt a deck where you turn cards sideways, sign the slip and dip.
Zoo is one of the easiest decks to play in legacy. Which also explains a lot of its success.
There's a large gap between the minimum requirements to play any deck and the level someone can reach with it. Zoo, as a deck, is probably the most complicated aggro deck in Legacy, just about on par with Goblins. It's not like Goyf Sligh or Burn or Red Deck Wins where you just throw your hand at the opponent and hope for the best.
jandax is correct in his last line. This deck takes a lot more thought to pilot correctly than blue players give it credit for.
lol sure. When I want to relax, I play zoo. I love the deck, but it's very easy to operate.
Damn right, Im learning that from hard knocks. I must say that Im just getting into the format with only 11 matches under my belt, as I realize it is much more manlier than gaming with Standard kids at an FMN.Quote:
Originally Posted by hungryLIKEALION
Zoo, literally, has an answer for everything out there. It is like skydiving; one is going to die unless one takes the appropriate meassures to insure survival. And this thread, with its many competent posters, has done well to volumize that critical information.
I'd just like to share some of my noob ass mistakes in hopes that others can benefit. From my first tournament, I can't really recall any "Aww shit" moments, but rather times where I could have attacked better:
I had a pridemage out with a goyf against goyf CT who aslo had a goyf and active CT out, it was kinda late in the game and he was on low life where I had a cushion. As an autopilot function, I go to path his goyf and he tops into a 1cc counter. dumb. then I run my exalted Goyf right into his killing it. THEN, I crack the PM to kill his CB. I immediately regretted the decision, but rules are rules. What should have happened was that I declare attack, trigger the exalted, crack the PM to kill his CB with said trigger on the stack, and then hold the path for another blocker. I still won, but it was bad play.
At the second tournament in which I scrubbed out, my first game against some kind of UW Standstill control deck, I have a library out, she's at 4 with humility out and a Factory against my lonely Nacatl. During my Draw step I see a helix and a bolt, and since Im at 15 I pay 4 to draw both burn spells. I bolt her, she FoWs going to 3. Here is where I fucked up big time. I helix her, and she activates factory in response then STP it for 2 life.
I had 2 paths in hand with plenty of white mana open. Facefuckingpalm. I go on to attack her down to 1, then I realize my blunder and just scoop from there because it was already 40 minutes into the round and it was game one. That dumb ass misplay was the first of many that day which caused me to play at the last table.
If any folks have a premium account on SCG, a couple of new articles are a great resource: They're about following instinct and not playing on auto-pilot (or making default decisions). I highly recommend reading them if you havent, it is great insight. In the end, asking yourself why youre making a play is critical- if you know why then it is most likely the right play as all other plays are inferrior, or if you dont know why you are making the play then you should step back a minute and reconsider your options as it most likely isnt the optimal play.
Again, Zoo isn't a deck for beginners, yet is a great deck with which to start in this format. It is a science, and as the old addage goes "Keep your friends close, but your enemies closer", know the deck you have, but know the format even better as it will most likely decide your correct line of play.
In that case, i want your DCI number so that I can check how far above 2000 your Legacy rating is.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sigar
Are you kidding me? My eternal rating has nothing to do with zoo being an easy deck to pilot. It's not beyond 2000 btw.
You just said that you're not a great magic player, so zoo is obviously a great way to get started, since the reaction pattern is very linear.
It's like back in pre M10 if you knew anything about magic, you would sac Mogg Fanatic with combat damage on stack almost every time. You actually had to make a decision, but it was very easy to make since 99% of the time, the same play was the right one.
That's how I feel about zoo. There's decisions to make, but the right play is often the same as in the last game and the one before that. It's not like you go turn 1 chain lightning to face, "ooops!".
The reason why Zoo is "easy" to play is because the mistakes a person can make with it are not game-losers. If a person makes a mistake with Goblins, it is very hard to come back, which is the case for a lot of aggressive decks. With Zoo, when a person makes a mistake, it is much easier to come back from it. Of course, Tarmogoyf is a big reason why in both of these cases, and in general why a lot of decks are more forgiving now.
I can't believe anyone would say that Zoo is hard to operate. People just assume that because you turn creatures sideways and burn that it's easy. That kinda irritates me.
I have the deck down to a science pretty much from all the playing I've done with it, and it comes down to a few things.
Fetching- Fetching wrong will cost you the game, and making sure to slow yourself down when needed is a good play when it mean the game. Two weeks ago i played against mono red Goblins and he blew me out game two with Blood Moon. I fetched basics game three not out of necessity, but out of fear. He ended the game with 3 Blood Moon in his hand.
Baiting- I love playing against bk's who run Daze, and then throwing that turn one Kird Ape out there. They have to stop and think of whether to Daze it, or save it for something else. Then turn two i drop a Nacatl. Baiting removal is key too. If you're riding something to a fast enough victory, then save some cards in your hand to recover if you need to. EE@1 resets your board well enough. I had a game the last time i played Zoo where i was just winning off of double Kird Ape because i knew he had the Deed, and he also wasn't applying any pressure. He blew up my board, then i dropped Grim and Goyf and went to town.
Mulligan- I highly suggest a mulligan to the "Too much burn" hand, or the "just goyf hand". Goyf is amazing, but I've had too many games where I've tried to just win off of 3 goyfs, and then they never grow over a 2/3 over the course of a game. He is pretty mediocre early, and i say this with love because i know he can go to a 4/5 turn 2 some games. I want my Nacatl, or my Pridemage, WITH burn backup. Keep land heavy hands depending on the matchup as well. I often find myself keeping 4 landers against Tempo Thresh and Eva Green, because half their strategy is void if you keep laying lands. Knight of the Reliquary shines here as well.
Idk if this has helped anyone at all. But this is the thought process i take when playing Zoo. haha:laugh:
Edit: @Sigar: Turn one Chain Lightning coming from Zoo is a terrible play. Please quit talking.
I don't think admitting mistakes makes one a bad magic player, bad players dont admit mistakes but rather cover them up. I said that I made a few bone headed plays and shared them in hopes that others could relate and hopefully improve their game.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sigar
Everyone has their own opinion, and Im not knocking yours at all. Even with my limited exerience with Zoo in the Legacy format, I can tell it isn't a beginner's deck. What I meant by saying that it was a great deck for newbies to the format was that while the concept is easier to grasp than, say, CT or Goblins or what have you, the deck itself is not as linear as it appears. Thus, it is not as easy to play to victory.
It isn't as linear as Ichorid, for example, where Ichorid is probably the most linear deck in the format. With Ichorid (which I also have sleeved up), the vast majority of your wins come from one way: a Zombie army. the really only other way to win is recurring Ichorids for consecutive attacks, and outside of those two paths, youre already dead. But that is all in another thread.
Zoo isn't very linear as its utility creatures and spells main deck serve multiple functions. Burn can go to the face, or to clear blockers, or to kill one of your dudes to remove opp's Bridges, or to force the ability of a creature it targets. Goyfs often become walls when opposing goys are out, KotR pumps herself and fixes mana, Pridemage can kill a myriad of troublesom artifacts and enchantments. To avoid a rant, all the spells in Zoo can and do perform more than one function. And that simply isn't linear, in my own opinion.
Therefore, learning which function a spell has to perform for maximum effect is a lot deeper than playing burn or Goyfsligh. Those decks just act, where Zoo is able and sometimes forced to reacte in order to survive.
edit@ LB: Did you mean to say that it irks you when people say that Zoo is "easy" to play?
His point was that it's an obviously terrible play. While Zoo has subtleties and nuances that take skill to maneuver with, the other half of the reality of the deck is that it's variations on the, "Drop critters and clear the way for them till they go the distance" plan. While a great player can get more out of the deck than a midskill player, the basic gameplan is consistent and powerful enough that midskill players can still rack up a ton of wins with it. It's not like you're ever going to make a screwup of Chaining someone to the face on turn one instead of playing your dude, that just doesn't happen. While I think he's underestimating the fine points of Zoo that really make the deck great, he's also right that it takes a real bad player to really screw up Zoo plays.Quote:
Originally Posted by Loxodon Baileyarch
If I was going to bring one of my standard-playing friends to a legacy tournament and hand them a deck, you'd better believe that I would let them borrow Zoo before I'd let them borrow Countertop. That doesn't mean Zoo takes no skill, but the threshold of knowledge about the format to at least be a contender is lower than a lot of other decks. I've seen plenty of bad Zoo pilots and they do make me cringe as they miss things and throw away games, but they do win their fair share of games too. *shrug* I think there's merit to both sides, Zoo is more "pick up and play" than a lot of decks, but it's also stupid to think it's an autopilot deck.
EDIT -- For what it's worth, one of the guys I test with is an awful Zoo player. I experience plenty of this first-hand.
sigar's point seemed to be more that the deck has an autopilot function, and burning face on turn one isn't on the same level as walking your game winning creature into a bigger threat.Quote:
Originally Posted by Otter
LB's statement, from what I gathered, is that if you play Chain Lightning on Turn 1, you should have mulliganed. CL is no first turn play. We can repeat time and time again the ideal play given a situation, but that is always in a vacuum. Real discussion comes from real world context.
All that said, this isn't the RNC, we don't need to sling insults and weighted opinion to be right. LB has more experience with most when it comes to this deck and I'll hang on his every word because it comes from that experience. The fact of the matter is that this deck does indeed not play itself, and that only skill will warrant success.
I'll call myself out here too, I took a good deck and fucked up. But realize that all our hindsight is 20/20. In the moment, in the match, with people watching or clocks ticking, things aren't always so obvious. DCI points to the player who can work through those problems game after game.
edit: i appologize if I wrongly interpretted any of those posters' statements
Okay, seriously? Zoo is easier to play than any other tier 1-2 deck in the format. There's obviously lots of mistakes/correct plays you can avoid/make, as is true with any deck. Fetching wrong costs you games with any deck. Knowing when to and when not to attack wins/loses matches. Experience does help. Etc. Blah Blah.
This said, compared to just about every other deck in the DTB and most in the established, Zoo is easy as shit to pilot.
But the over all point is: It is easy as shit to play, but more difficult to master. oil and water.
That's horrible logic. Everything is "more difficult" to master. The issue here is that some people get offended by pointing out that zoo is an easy deck to play, so they feel the need to point out that there are some subtleties to playing. Which is valid, but those subtleties will be present in any deck one plays, so it's not like it's something specific to zoo. I'm not really sure what is being argued here anymore.
Anyway, something more interesting and productive:
I disagree that you might always want to follow this play when facing daze. Each method has pros and cons:Quote:
Originally Posted by Loxodon Baileyarch
Playing kid ape first means that they might not daze it. If they do daze it, well you gained tempo, and they used a daze on your worst spell. However, if they don't daze it, then you don't gain that tempo. Sure, your kird ape and nacatl are safe, but that tempo can be very important against decks running blue.
If you play nacatl first, then they use daze on a good spell. However, you're pretty much forcing them to use up a daze. This means that you almost certainly gain tempo, which I find to be very useful for this deck. It also means that if you have a 2-cost creature then it's probably safe.
So, my question then, is in what scenarios (As in, deck playing against, specific cards in hand, etc.) might follow for each strategy? Hopefully this situation can start a worthwhile discussion.
+1Quote:
Originally Posted by Tacosnape
What I meant was that of all the Established decks and DTB, Zoo is probably the most "plug n play" one there is. However, like every other deck it takes time and talent to master. Where all the other decks, pretty much, require some degree of mastery in order to be successful. I agree with what you said though, the other points as wellQuote:
Originally Posted by Valtrix