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To each their own but in the stoneblade matchup tribe is the weakest link, zombies block equipment guys well enough if the cost is clear breakthrough just gets there, siding them all out is a mistake. In a lot of matches I view firestorm and tribe as interchanable.
On the dr target Iona did feel win more a lot of the time but when she mattered she won me the game, I keep switching my dr target between her and angel of despair I still haven't decided which one is better overall in the main.
I played in a small tournament yesterday and ended 2-2, missing the top 4 split. My losts were to Merfolk and Dark Depths combo, while I beat MUC and Burn.
Rd1 vs. Merfolk
Game one, he wins the roll and plays Vial. I start with Therapy for Force, but see MM. I have an PImp and Tribe, but only one rainbow land so I don't stick a guy until turn three and start dredging turn four. I think my hand was just too slow to keep against Merfolk, and I end up losing with him at 4 life with 4 lords. Plus, if he had Wasteland then I would have lost even quicker.
+4 Firestorm, +1 Ichorid
-4 Breakthrough, -1 Tireless Tribe
Game two, I get a good hand with Study, Imp, Coliseum, GGT, lands. I dredge for a while, get some Ichorids and sandbag Coliseum until after he sacs a Cursecatcher to blow up my one Bridge. Then I win with Ichorid and Zombie beats.
Game three, he goes turn one Relic. I kept a DDD hand. I try to draw into something that won't make me auto-lose to Relic, but it doesn't happen. Relic easily beats me. So my conclusion is DDD isn't fast enough against Merfolk and lesson learned.
Rd2 vs. Dark Depths combo
Game one, I win the roll and start with Therapy for Force. I see Hexmage, Living Wish, Dark Confidant, Swords, Wasteland, and two fetch :cry:. After that he Wastes my mana source and I'm left with only Coliseum in hand. I lay it down and cast Careful Study hoping to find another land, but no luck. I can't cast my spells and have to wait to DDD and hope to flip a Narco to get a combo piece with Therapy. It doesn't happen and I lose game one.
+1 Ichorid, +1 Elesh Norn, +1 Dread Return
-2 Breakthrough, -1 Careful Study
Game two, I go turn one Imp and get to Dredge 6 each turn of the game. He gets a Hexmage, but I Therapy away the Living Wish and Crop Rotation in the same turn he taps out for the Vampire. From there it was all Ichorid and I DR Elesh Norn for style.
Game three, he gets a good start and I kept a hand without Therapy (dumb). I lose to a 20/20 legendary, trampling flyer. But I didn't have the chance to go broken with a draw spell all match here, which was pretty unlucky.
Rd3 vs. MUC
Game one, I resolve a PImp and Breakthrough by turn 2. Way to go MUC.
-1 Breakthrough
+1 Ichorid
Game two, I go on the DDD plan and grind him out with Ichorids. The only spell I cast was a Careful Study to dredge twice, and otherwise I played it slow and still won easily. I guess losing your first two matches gives gives you an easy round three.
Rd4 vs. Burn
Game one, I win the roll and start with Tribe. He starts with Goblin Guide, which I block all day, but it never gives me a land. He topdecks a Lavamancer after I go off with Coliseum and blows up his Guide to kill three Bridges. I try to grind him out with Ichorids, but they're not fast enough and I die with him on two life.
+1 Ancestor's Chosen, +1 Elesh Norn, +1 Dread Return
-2 Cabal Therapy, -1 Ichorid
Game two was a blowout. I play Tribe again and Breakthrough turn two. He tries to recover, but I reanimate Chosen and gain 27 life to put the game out of reach.
Game three was similar except I reanimated Elesh Norn. I had to sac a Bridge, but removing his Lavamancers for the rest of the game was amazing. I beat him down the way Dredge does afterwards with everyone +2/+2 bigger.
I'm not very happy with my finish, but it hasn't deterred me from the deck at all. I know I'm still learning the ins and outs of it, so I'll stick it out and try again next month. I used this list:
4 Putrid Imp
4 Tireless Tribe
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
3 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Breakthrough
4 Careful Study
4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Dread Return
4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
3 Tarnished Citadel
4 Cephalid Coliseum
With this board:
4 Firestorm
4 Chain of Vapor
3 Winds of Change
1 Ichorid
1 Dread Return
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Ancestor's Chosen
I didn't use The Chains or Winds all day though. I'd leave the Winds in if you have combo in your meta. I played a few games after the tournament with them in, and they can be more busted than Breakthrough. I also know that next month a lot of people will be packing Leylines, so I need an answer to those. In a metagame of 30 or fewer people, it isn't a problem you can just ignore as you're bound to encounter them.
A mod can delete this post.
what deck winds of change will be put in?
You don't put Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite against Merfolks?? What a mistake dude!Quote:
Originally Posted by igri_is_a_bk
Combo decks or anything that can race you. It acts as Breakthrough 5-7 and usually replaces the Ichorids as they're too slow.Quote:
Originally Posted by kabards
I'm not sold on bringing in DR targets against Merfolk. DR is very difficult to resolve against that deck. Between Cursecatcher, Daze, and Force you need a lot of things to go right for it to work. I can always try it again later, Elesh Norn is not coming out of the board anytime soon.Quote:
Originally Posted by mooN_MTG
What an empty statement, you don't give any reasons, and don't even consider his reasons, to state why it is a mistake.Quote:
Originally Posted by mooN_MTG
I find Iona to be a better DR target against Merfolks than Elesh, and among the reasons for such, it includes:
- Is able to defend against active Coralhelm
- Cannot be bounced
- Cannot be copied
- Better Stand-alone clock with protection for possible zombies
Besides, there are reasons to believe DR targets makes your deck even worse against Merfolks, since the usual attriction is between counters and your spells trying to discard/accelerate into graveyard stuff. If you cut these spells, or graveyard stuff, for DR, you are cutting your chances of winning the war against their counters. So I find Elesh norn to be winmore.
On the other hand, siding out Breakthroughs for Firestorms is not what I usually would do as well... but this is debatable, since I run Firestorms maindeck.
I never lose against Merfolk!Quote:
Originally Posted by Gui
I never lose against Merfolk!Quote:
Originally Posted by Gui
Even if so, which I doubt, unless you are playing against some real bad merfolk players given the dificulty of the match, you never stated this in your last message, which still makes it an empty statement. Learn to reason your ideas, maybe then someone will consider them.Quote:
Originally Posted by mooN_MTG
This is a biiiig thread so apologies if this has been brought up before, but i'm curious if anyone has tried to adapt the Vintage plan of Sun Titans and Bloodghasts, to legacy dredge?
Obviously we don't have Bazaar to make that quite as nutty, but i was thinking maybe something like whirlpool rider to chain a bunch of dredging and sun titans. Whirlpool Rider on it's own doesn't seem all that bad either.
This probably just eats up too many slots, to make it workable, but i'm just throwing it out there as food for thought.
Sup guys, had to sell my LED set, unfortunately :(
Some random ANT guy just offered me 400U$ the set, lol.
So I started browsing the thread again, and I've built a Mana Dredge, pretty much standard:
//Lands:
4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
4 Cephalid Coliseum
2 Tarnished Citadel
//Dredgers:
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
//Free Dudes:
4 Narcomoeba
3 Ichorid
//Other Dudes:
4 Putrid Imp
4 Tireless Tribe
1 Woodfall Primus
//Business:
4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Dread Return
//Draw:
4 Breakthrough
4 Careful Study
//Sideboard:
4 Chain of Vapor
4 Ancient Grudge
4 Firestorm
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Ichorid
Trying to fit a 3rd Dread Return somewhere on the 75, but couldn't make space for it :(
Still, MD is pretty solid. Not running any Darkblasts because I hate to "answer" with Dredge. C'mon, it's a beatdown deck, and shouldn't worry about anything not named Leyline of the Void and friends.
Any comments?
It's a cool idea, but I think it's more or less the same effect that sphinx of the lost truths, but you need two cards.Quote:
Originally Posted by ReAnimator
The real advantatge of the titan dredge in vintage is that bazaar is a LAND. You can sac your bloodghast to dread returned a Titan, bring back the bazaar and the bazaar bring you back yours bloodghast again, and so on. That's the big difference.
You could bring back a cephalid coliseum (to trigger landfall) with Titan and dredge some more if you have a mana open.
Here.Quote:
Originally Posted by ReAnimator
You are welcome.
Thanks guys.
Hi all, glad to see this deck finally make it DTB again. I love playing this deck too, but lately, it felt so hard to win with dredge with mental misstep and batterskull running rampant.
My meta is filled with stoneblade decks, dreaded fish, bant aggro, GW maverick and merfolks.
I know u guys would recommend playing DDD against deck that packs lots of counter And that's what I've been doing. The problems for me are :
*After I successfully landed some narcomoebas and ichorid beatdown, I sometimes got stuck with stoneforge into Batterskull. When I got lucky, I can sometimes therapy it away. If batterskull landed, it would be so hard for me to race, especially when I don't have breakthrough or coliseum.
*in game 2, the most common hate that they bring would be relic of progenitus. I usually board in firestorm and grudge in game 2 so that I can handle his pesky equipments. But as you guys know, relic would slow us down and un-handled batterskull would slow us down even more. I even got to the point that he has reccuring spelstutter (with riptide laboratory) to counter everything that's coming outta my hand , and even my ancient grudge would do no good.
Learning from my 2 problems above, I came up to a solution(not proven though) that I must play more aggressively by landing more creatures, produce more zombies so that I can race these type of decks without having to interact with their counters. and of course DDD would be the main plan.
SO, here is my new list and please let me know what u guys think:
Creature:
3 bloodghast
3 ichorid
1 FKZ
4 golgari grave troll
4 stinkweed imp
3 golgari thug
4 narcomoeba
4 putrid imp
instants:
4 firestorm
enchantment:
4 bridge from below
sorcery:
4 breakthrough
4 cabal therapy
2 Dread return
Lands:
4 undiscovered paradise
4 city of brass
4 cephalid coliseum
2 gemstone mine
2 dakmor salvage
SB:
1 elesh norn
1 ichorid
1 Blazing archon
3 ancient grudge
4 chain of vapor
4 careful study
I put careful study in the SB so that I can always go back to the original dredge list when we are facing fast decks without counters (ANT, goblins, etc)
I tried a Bloodghast/Ichorid list during our Nationals Legacy Open tourney here in the Philippines and finished 17th out of 101 players with a 4-1-2 record. I got paired against Stoneblade three times in that tournament and I swept the two MUs and ended with a draw on one. I could have also swept the one MU that ended in a draw but he top decked a Tormod's Crypt after I raped his hand with Therapy on G2. DDD + Cabal Therapy is a solid plan against those MUs and you could easily race one Batterskull with an army of Ichorids, Bloodghasts, Narcomoebas and Zombie Tokens. Racing against two Batterskulls is a different story tho.
Quite a positive result for you Shaboogs, mind showing me your decklist?
// Enchantments (4)
4 Bridge from Below
// Creatures (28)
4 Putrid Imp
4 Narcomoeba
4 Golgari Grave Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Golgari Thug
3 Bloodghast
3 Ichorid
3 Tireless Tribe
// Spells (14)
4 Breakthrough
4 Careful Study
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Dread Return
// Lands (14)
4 Undiscovered Paradise
4 City of Brass
3 Cephalid Coliseum
2 Gemstone Mine
1 Dakmor Salvage
// Sideboard (15)
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Ancient Grudge
3 Chain of Vapor
3 Nature's Claim
1 Terastodon
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
My SB plan against UW Stoneblade: -4 Breakthrough +3 Ancient Grudge +1 Terastodon
These were my MU's that day:
Round 1: Thopter Sword – Draw (1-1)
Round 2: BGW Junk/Rock – Win (2-0)
Round 3: UW Blade Control – Draw (1-1)
Round 4: UW Blade Control – Win (2-0)
Round 5: UW Blade Control – Win (2-0)
Round 6: GW Maverick – Loss (0-2)
Round 7: UG Infect Berserk – Win (2-0)
It was also worth noting that I lost the die roll in every single god forsaken round that day so I always went second. When I saw that my opponent's land drop was blue, I always went for the DDD plan even if I had multiple discard dorks in my opening hand.