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Sorry Hollywood, I actually don't agree with you on the way to play against miracles. I would never drop my whole hand against them and would leave 1-2 creatures in my hand at all times in case of terminus.Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Keller
One - 2 threats on the board is enough to put enough pressure on them to find answers and use their spells.
No and that's fine, I'm not saying dump your hand, but dropping a trio of dudes seems better than working off a single weenie. Also take into consideration they run removal, so only two might stick.Quote:
Originally Posted by KobeBryan
Which is exactly why a bunch of weenies is underwhelming against the deck? The longer you wait, the worse it gets...so you commit 2-3 guys to putting them on a reasonable clock, which is basically walking right into Terminus. It's not like these are Goblin Guides or Delvers either...it's 2/x's for 2/3 mana, without any acceleration. That gives them a lot of time to work on their hand/board state.Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Keller
I really think the best chance game 1 is to try and hit counters/counterbalance with discard on turn 1, and drop Bitterblossom T2. That will put them under a lot of pressure to find Council's Judgement, which I mostly only see as a 1-of. Until they get rid of it, it basically blanks all their wincons, except maybe a Terminus followed by a big end-step Entreat.
At least for me. You could probably register a ham sandwich and top 8 a 6-round event.
Certainly go with what your testing has told you, but I wouldn't go in that direction. Confidant's a turn faster and adds to the overall card advantage theme, by also being a beater. The life loss shouldn't be a concern the vast majority of the time, especially with Legacy-legal Umezawa's Jitte and Vampire Nighthawk. Agreed about making opponents' Wastelands live being an undesirable outcome, particularly so given the deck philosophy.Quote:
Originally Posted by B is for Big Job
As for Gray Merchant of Asphodel, admittedly I haven't tested it exhaustively, but I don't like anything being in this deck that doesn't truly affect the board or hand, through discard, creature removal, formidable creatures, etc. I don't think it's profitable to be getting into taking one-time hits at the opponent's life total with a 2/4 5 CMC creature in this deck. It does also make you top heavy in terms of mana cost, assuming you're running a couple Phyrexian Obliterators or Abyssal Persecutors too. By all means test both approaches and see what you think though.
I noodled around with a few versions of this deck this week. This was the version I settled on:
4 Dark Confidant
4 Vampire Nighthawk
3 Gatekeeper of Malakir
2 Phyrexian Obliterator
4 Thoughtseize
4 Liliana of the Veil
3 Innocent Blood
3 Hymn to Tourach
3 Bitterblossom
2 Victim of Night
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
1 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Wasteland
18 Swamp
2 Cursed Scroll
1 Perish
2 Pithing Needle
2 Ratchet Bomb
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Toxic Deluge
I have been playing it like a control deck, which is why I added the Tops. I tried the DRS-power out Lili or gatekeeper turn 2 thing and it just is not as good or consistent as other more aggressive decks. I think this strategy is really good against tempo/creature decks like Delver — you just remove their stuff and disrupt their plan, then in the late game you have lots of lifegain to undo what damage they did. Their creatures are often just dumb beaters with no additional value.
But since it's itself a control deck, Miracles can be tough game 1 simply because it is the better control deck with more relevant game 1 cards. They have problems with Bitterblossom, but you can't guarantee it. I am trying Cursed Scroll as a way to get another permanant source of every-turn damage that they can't deal with postboard.
I tried a white splash with Stoneforge and STP, but philosophically I didn't like it, plus it made opposing Wastelands a thing. I also tried a version with (3) Therapies and Persecutors instead of Thoughtseize and Obliterator, but I think it's more important to guarantee nabbing a card turn 1 and not needing an out to your own beater. I also swapped it from 3 CMC 1 discard 4 Hymn to the other way around for the same reason.
The equipment suite is really because of what I have on hand. I really think SoLaS is the best equipment in this deck, and ideally I'd play two of them of the FaF or FaI. On a Nighthawk, it is insane. But TNN and Tarmogoyf are a thing, and sometimes you only have a ground creature, and so each of them have their merits. With a little more selection via Top, I'm having fun playing all of them.
Then play fetches
Oh yeah. I forgot about that. It was just so satisfying to delete all the ancillary lands and just write "18 Swamp."Quote:
Originally Posted by KobeBryan
I think if I do that I can run 1 Bayou main and a couple Krosan Grip in the sideboard to deal with opposing Jittes, Batterskulls and Counterbalances.
I've been playing The Gate for a while now, and this has settled as my list.
// Creatures
4 Dark Confidant
4 Gatekeeper of Malakir
4 Vampire Nighthawk
3 Phyrexian Obliterator
1 Abyssal Persecutor
// Instants & Sorceries
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Thoughtseize
3 Innocent Blood
2 Disfigure
2 Victim of Night
1 Cabal Therapy
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
// Artifacts
2 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Ratchet Bomb
// Enchantments
2 Bitterblossom
// Planeswalkers
2 Liliana of the Veil
// Lands
20 Swamp
// Sideboard
SB: 4 Toxic Deluge
SB: 3 Stillmoon Cavalier
SB: 3 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Duress
SB: 2 Extirpate
SB: 1 Sadistic Sacrament
Of note:
- I personally don't like Wasteland in the deck. We don't have many mana denial pieces, and compared to most decks we face, we operate better on 3-4 rather than 1-2 lands. It's often good, but most of the time I'd rather draw a spell, if we're counting it as a spell in the deck. If we're counting it as a land, I value kicking Gatekeeper and getting Obliterator out too much. There are problematic lands, like Maze of Ith and Grove of the Burnwillows, but there are more decks that I prefer drawing spells or additional threats against than decks that leave me wanting land destruction. I'd rather attack on different axes when it's necessary, for instance, Surgical Extraction/Extirpate on Life from the Loam decks with all their pesky lands.
- I only have 1 Cabal Therapy. I've found that it doesn't have the power that it does in Nic Fit because a.) It's a critical turn slower and b.) Bitterblossom tokens or other creatures aren't always as disposable as Veteran Explorers. It also makes for fewer missed guesses, but I like 1 as it usually follows a prior discard, and is a sac outlet to Persecutor. 3 Obliterators instead of Persecutors makes the Therapies less important too. I do like the 1 Persecutor to complement Nighthawk and Bitterblossom fliers, and the sometimes relevant +1/+1.
- Ratchet Bomb is an unorthodox choice but has been very useful. We have no 1 CMC permanents, it can be a sweeper against difficult aggro decks, it hits permanents that we otherwise can't deal with, and isn't really ever dead even if it's a little slow.
- For me, Disfigure and Victim of Night are the new Deathmarks.
I went 2-2 with my list last night at its initial run. It was mostly the same as I posted before but I tested a few one-ofs to see how they performed.
4 Dark Confidant
4 Vampire Nighthawk
3 Gatekeeper of Malakir
1 Phyrexian Obliterator
1 Abyssal Persecutor
4 Liliana of the Veil
3 Thoughtseize
3 Innocent Blood
3 Hymn to Tourach
3 Bitterblossom
2 Victim of Night
1 Duress
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Lashwrithe
4 Wasteland
4 Marsh Flats
3 Bloodstained Mire
1 Mishra's Factory
1 Bayou
8 Swamp
2 Cursed Scroll
1 Toxic Deluge
2 Pithing Needle
2 Ratchet Bomb
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Krosan Grip
D&T 1-2, BUG Control (Phimus Phan build) 2-1, Affinity 0-2, Miracles 2-0.
Losses were way closer than it seems. D&T topdecked a crucial Flickerwisp to reset his Phyrexian Revoker in game 3 (had been on Liliana, but I had a Ratchet Bomb on 2 ready to go and he had a Jitte, SFM, and the Revoker). And against Affinity in game 1, vs. his Plating, Frogmite, and Etched Champion and like a billion artifact lands, I had a Nighthawk and a Jitte. I got counters on the Jitte by attacking when I should've held back, forced him to hold his Frogmite back, absorbed the Champion hit, then cracked back, killed the Champion and played a second Nighthawk to block the Frogmite. That might not make sense, but the win was there, I just didn't see the line. In the second game he had a Ravager and got me down to 1 when I had a bitterblossom out. The trouble I had in both those matches makes me feel like Marsh Casualties might be better than Toxic Deluge out of the board.
I actually played a warmup match against the BUG guy before the tournament, 3 games without sideboarding and went 2-1 there as well. Having Wasteland and not being vulnerable to Wasteland is a huge advantage. He told me I should play Powder Keg instead of Ratchet Bomb in case someone is playing artifact lands. I said, who ever does that?
Against Miracles I got turn 2 Bitterblossom in both games, then added a second one later. They hate seeing that card, haha. Actually, Bitterblossom is just insane overall. Affinity player had to Dispatch one of my tokens to keep his Signal Pest alive which felt good until he just won.
Top was ridiculous, I think I want to go to 3. I also am heavily considering moving Cursed Scroll to the main, I'm hellbent a lot and it seems to be an effect i want a lot. Obviously I'm not going to be playing as much equipment moving forward. I really think SoL&S is the best in this deck. It takes Nighthawk & Gatekeeper out of bolt, plow & decay range and gains a ridiculous amount of life on a Nighthawk. It gets you three Bitterblossom tokens and lets you recycle dead guys. So maybe an artifact configuration like:
3 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Cursed Scroll
2 Sword of Light & Shadow
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire & Ice
Then run a couple thorns in the board for combo. To make room I could cut a Lili and the Persecutor. I rarely found myself really wanting one of my bombs so I think one Obliterator is plenty. The argument for playing Persecutor over Obliterator is that I could run more Factories, and Factory was good last night as well, but needing an out to your own guy is not something I want when I'm clocking myself with BB and Bob.
If you're having trouble with Stoneblade, I really like a couple Stillmoon Cavaliers in the sideboard. It's really good in grindy match ups, which happily are often the decks with white and black, like Stoneblade, D&T, BUG decks, Jund, Junk, etc. It's been like a better TNN against the appropriate decks. Stops germ tokens, Abrupt Decay, Maelstrom Pulse, Swords to Plowshares, Delver of Secrets, Tombstalker, Mangara of Corondor, Vindicate, a whole host of others, carries a Jitte extremely well with first strike.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zirath
I agree that Stoneforge/Batterskull is very difficult to come back from. I play Krosan Grip entirely because of Batterskull. Sword of Light & Shadow + Bitterblossom or Nighthawk is really good. Also Thoughtseize can hit either piece.
I've got a lot to talk about as it pertains to this archetype going into several big tournaments coming up. After playing in the Star City Open to a mediocre 5-3 record with Grixis and looking at a flooded Top 16 of Delver and RUG/BUG variants, I'm completely sold on The Gate at this point as being a nightmarish match-up for the existing meta as it was four years ago.
I'll post more later, but this is the archetype I will be shifting back towards without question.
No doubt this is the stark truth right now.Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Keller
The entire meta is overrun with creature-light tempo decks that want to ride out 1-2 dudes to victory. This kind of meta is just ripe for the picking with a mono black deck packed full of Edict effects and targeted removal.
I honestly think you guys are a little too confident about the Delver matchups. Don't get me wrong, I believe The Gate to be favored in these matchups. At the same time though you're less consistent and you've got a plethora of tough matchups like Burn,Storm, and Miracles. It's kinda like playing the pairings lottery in a way almost like Death and Taxes does. Basically what I mean is, it seems like you've got good matchups and bad matchups with very little to no 50-50s. But if you manage to smash through the first 4 rounds or so, you're probably pretty comfortable at the top tables or even the top 8. Am I close in this assumption?
Anyone test with Empty the Pits? I did and it seems like the real deal. Instant speed, passes the STP test. My build runs 4 Wasteland, 7 fetches though so I have even more fuel than just the point discard and removal.
I'm thinking something like:
4 Dark Confidant
4 Vampire Nighthawk
2 Gatekeeper of Malakir
4 Thoughtseize
3 Liliana of the Veil
3 Innocent Blood
3 Hymn to Tourach
3 Victim of Night
2 Empty the Pits
2 Bitterblossom
3 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Feast & Famine
1 Sword of Fire & Ice
8 Swamp
4 Wasteland
4 Marsh Flats
3 Bloodstained Mire
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Bayou
(Sorry for the mistakes I will make when writing, I'm french)
Hi Gate lovers,
Just decided to move from my Pox deck to a Gate build.
I was wondering why there were no Dark Rituals at all in all The Gate lists played around and listed in this forum.
I understand that instead of topdecking a Rit, one would prefer to get anything else (creature, removal,...).
But when playing Pox, being able to play a T1 Liliana, or Thoughtseize + Sinkhole, or Thoughtseize + Hymn, was just so good.
For the Gate, my first feeling was that a T1 Nighthawk, or T2 Percy/Obliterator (or even T1 with 2 Rits), could be really strong.
I would try cutting maybe a couple of swamps for 4 Rits.
Any thoughts/experience on that ?
Thanks..
That sounds like bad trades in your near future ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by jereminus
You're all about card advantage in The Gate.Quote:
Originally Posted by jereminus
Just saying, you're on the play. You play Dark Ritual into Vampire Nighthawk instead of your typical discard T1. Your opponent plays Delver, Deathrite Shaman, or any turn-1 creature.
How do you Innocent Blood?
Dark Ritual is an excellent card, but it just doesn't fit The Gate at all.
@Dark Ritual
That probably makes more sense in a Pox deck. I've played all types of Mono Black. Ritual is the ultimate risk/reward card, it works great in Sui where you're taking a calculated risk making those T1 power plays like seize/hymn, Negator, or Hippie in hopes to use early advantage to catapult you to win. Pox is sort of like that too, it needs to f' up opponents gameplan early before they can recover, then win 'cause your deck's better suited for that. The Gate seems to win off consistency more like classic MBA, it's trying to use its CA and straightup outplay opponent. It's not not CA like "Treasure Cruise" per se, but more like the black Zoo, every one of its cards are more efficient than opponents at what they do, similar to Goyf and Mystic being most efficient 2 drops this deck accomplishes same with Blossom, Confidant, Gakekeeper and Percy. Adding ritual is always tempting but really won't put you that far ahead in an attrition match and getting 2-for-1'd would be a game over.
Thanks all for your replies regarding the dark rituals, definitely makes sense...
I will follow your valuable advice.
Thanks