Printable View
Yes. I SB out all of that. I've seen Jace be alright against Jund if you have stuff like Leyline to bring in, but Jace is pretty much at his worst against Bloodbraid and Punishing Fire.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stavanger
I guess Humility would also be ok against Jund, but Entreat is so good here that I'm not sure I'd want to conflict so much.
Thx, what aboutQuote:
Originally Posted by Dzra
Out: 3 FoW, 3 Jace
In: 2 Celestial Purge, 1 Ethersworn Canonist, 1 Entreat the Angels, 1 Relic of Progenitus, 1 Pithing Needle and leave the single Humility in the board (because of 2 ETA main)
Do you mind posting your list?Quote:
Originally Posted by Stavanger
here is how i board vs jund and have not lost to it since:
-4 fow
-2 cb
-1 ponder
+3 leyline of sanctity
+2 celestial purge
+1 counterspell
+1 v.clique
Will PM later, have to run, tournament in 2h.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aetherick
How many Jace do you run, and why do you keep it? Why do board out CB? Hits everything except AD.Quote:
Originally Posted by sauce
I have tested leyline against Jund and it's definitely not the obvious solution. First, you reduce the effectiveness of leyline by not running 4, having at least 1 in your opening hand is the purpose of leyline, there is no reason not to maximize the likelihood of opening the game of it, if that is your route.Quote:
Originally Posted by sauce
Second, if you want to stop Punishing Fire, you can do the same with just a single Sphere of Law, which you can tutor. No need to spend 3 slots for it. Sphere not only can reduce most burn spells, which might or might not target, it can also nullify Goblin guide and reduce BBE. Leyline's application in your case, is for either Jund, High Tide, or Storm. But that seems an overkill, since the combo match-up primarily depends on whether CB has resolved or not. Hence, you have devoted 5 cards, mostly just for Jund and Bug. I'm not sure if that's the best utilization of SB.
Third, Jund's SB against Miracle is to increase number of threats, to overwhelm Terminus and Swords. Usually Jund can achieve that by having more Green threats from SB, like Garruk Relentless. Some even have Goyf in the SB to begin with.
Your success might be attributed by purge, difficult to say if leyline's solely the reason. I can see how Purging a Dark Confidant to deny card advantage could be huge, what if BUG/Jund simply SB out hymn for more green threats? How advantageous would leyline be then?
4 jtms, and i sideout cb because it's not needed in this matchup, they have lilianas and blood braids as the only cards you really care about and hitting those with cb are pretty unlikely.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stavanger
leyline is not just for jund, it has a lot of other applications. 3 is enough and 4 is too many. combo matchup is not always won with cbtop, especially if you don't draw the cb or the top or they turn1 discard it.Quote:
Originally Posted by twndomn
sphere of law is just a worse leyline since you have to cast it and it does not stop storm, it literally is only better vs price of progress and sulfuric vortex... other red things are stopped by leyline and creatures should not be killing you in any of the red matchups (burn or gobs).
jund's only relevant cards in order of importance vs miracles: liliana, sylvan library, hymn, bbe, bob (since it draws the other relevant things), everything else is pretty irrelevant.
punishing fire CAN be annoying but leyline solves it also.
for us the plan vs jund is the following pre board: counter liliana, make RIP/helm or stall w/ terminus/swords and make angels (which they are kold to)
post board you just side out your bad fows and play the leylines, purges.
jace is insane vs jund if you're playing it correctly and at the correct time in the game.
Jace is amazing in any fair matchup. Leyline is in a really good place right now with storm and discard decks being in the decks to beat. Jund without discard is no where as scary and leyline also beats decks like that zombardment deck.
You have no statistical evidence to validate that claim. Are you suggesting that you have ran mathematical modeling and simulation to come up with that conclusion? Or is that just something you imagine, based on mental magic?Quote:
Originally Posted by sauce
This is another dubious statement. When both decks are on top deck mode due to Liliana, Miracle usually has Top in play. In this case Miracle can handle top-decking much better. Cards like library and Bob offer straight card advantage and ought to be placed at higher importance than Liliana. Better yet, Jund can resolve your so-called number one threat Liliana, but does that even matter when Miracle has a resolved Jace with more counters outside of burn range? Hence, your understanding of this match-up might not be as solid as you claim.Quote:
Originally Posted by sauce
I just base it on results. I am not a statistician. I probably have played a lot more games with the deck than you have so when I offer my take on cards/matchup I am probably right and you're probably wrong.Quote:
Originally Posted by twndomn
Made the Top 8 at a local 65-player event here in the Philippines with the following list:
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Venser, Shaper Savant
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Brainstorm
1 Counterspell
2 Enlightened Tutor
2 Entreat the Angels
4 Force of Will
2 Spell Pierce
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Terminus
1 Blood Moon
2 Counterbalance
1 Detention Sphere
3 Rest in Peace
1 Helm of Obedience
4 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Arid Mesa
4 Flooded Strand
1 Karakas
4 Island
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Plains
1 Scalding Tarn
3 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
Sideboard:
1 Counterbalance
1 Counterspell
1 Detention Sphere
1 Disenchant
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Humility
3 Red Elemental Blast
1 Spell Pierce
2 Sulfur Elemental
1 Vendilion Clique
I modified Jack Colwell's list from SCG: Las Vegas with some preference card choices. I didn't really like Elspeth, Knight-Errant as I felt she was not necessary as a win-condition, plus the singleton Ponder from his list didn't do it for me, so I cut those 2 to make room for 2 Spell Pierces in the main. I also replaced 1 Island for a Volcanic Island as I found that I didn't have enough red mana when I wanted it, especially post-board when I bring in REB's and the Engineered Explosives. I also went with 3 Misty Rainforests because I didn't have the extra Scalding Tarns, but I honestly never missed them.
Below is a short recap of yesterday's matchups, based from memory (I should really start taking down more notes when I play in Tournaments):
Round 1: Belcher - Won 2-1
Game 1, I mulliganed into a hand with 1 FoW and no blue cards to pitch to it, plus 4 lands and a Top, not knowing I was facing Belcher. He cast Gitaxian Probe on me, seeing I had no way to stop him, and he cast Empty the Warrens for 10 goblins. I lost quickly afterwards. Game 2, I had FoW and Spell Pierce in my opening hand, and I was able to stop his first attempt, with CB+Top coming down later to lock the game, and Helm + RIP to win the game. Game 3, I opened with 2 FoW's, a CB, a Spell Pierce and 3 lands. I stopped a Turn 1 Belcher dead in its tracks, and was able to get Helm + RIP later on to seal the deal.
Round 2: All Spells - Won 2-0
Game 1, I Spell Pierced a Cabal Ritual with only 1 floating mana remaining, and he was forced to pass the turn. RIP went down later on, and he was forced to scoop. Game 2 played out similarly, with RIP locking him out of his win-con and Helm finished a few turns later.
Round 3: Omnishow - Lost 0-2
Game 1, he spent his first 2 turns sculpting his hand. A turn 3 Show and Tell into Omniscience with 1 FoW and 1 Misdirection backup made short work of the match. Game 2, I was able to answer his first Show and Tell with a Detention Sphere, but I did not draw into any answers for his 2nd Show and Tell into Omniscience.
Round 4: Mono-Black Control - Won 2-0
Game 1, Met some early game disruption in the form of Inquisition of Kozilek and Sinkhole. A Phyrexian Arena later made its way to his side. Luckily, he kept drawing into creature-removal, and I was able to assemble lands for the RIP + Helm combo finish. Game 2, he mulliganed to 4 cards. Again, early disruption in the form of discard. Luckily, I was able to land SDT + CB early on, and I was able to stop 2 Hymn to Tourachs. I assembled RIP + Helm and finished a few turns later.
Round 5: Manaless Dredge - Won 2-0
Luckily, I've already seen my next opponent in the other tables during the early rounds, so I knew what to expect. I won the die roll and opted to Draw, giving myself a virtual Time-walk. Game 1, I drew into 3 Swords to Plowshares and kept exiling his creatures to avoid having fodder for Dread Return and Bridge for Below. I eventually landed a Rest in Peace and was able to draw into Helm a few turns later. Game 2, I played 2 Rest in Peace just to ensure that it survives removal. I was luckily able to blind-flip a 1-cost spell through Counterbalance to counter his first Nature's Claim. He had a second one, but with 2 RIP's in play, he was still deadlocked. I was able to tutor for the Helm the following turn and seal the deal.
Round 6: Combo Elves - Won 2-0
Game 1, I was able to hit an early Terminus on a board containing a Dryad Arbor, Heritage Druid and Wirewood Symbiote, leaving him with 1 land. A CB+Top locked the board position, while Vendilion Clique slowly whittled his life to 0. Game 2, and early CB+Top was able to control his field. He was able to resolve a Natural Order for Progenitus, but a timely Terminus took care of the hydra before it could do some damage. RIP + Helm a few turns later won the game for me.
Round 7: RUG Delver - Won 2-0
My opponent decided to drop out of the tournament due to fatigue and hunger, so he gave the round to me.
Standing after 7 Rounds: 2nd Place
Quarterfinals: Sneak Show - Won 2-0
I was paired against a teammate, so we decided to play only one game for all the marbles, as it didn't really matter to us which one of us moves on to the Top 4. I was able to stop his Sneak Attack with CB by flipping a JTMS off the top of my Library. His Show and Tell 2 turns after met with no resistance, as I already played RIP a turn before, and had Helm in hand, with enough mana open to activate it on the same turn. He was my ride home, and for the remainder of the tournament, he was making jokes about having to find my own way home. Hahaha! :)
We ended up splitting Top 4, and I went home with a Revised Tundra and some cash for my efforts.
All in all, it was a great choice for our local meta, and I would not think twice about using this deck in the next major event.
Props to the TO for a well-run event, and to my opponents as well for being such great sports!
I just placed 12th at the SCG Open in Atlanta with a 7-2 record. I'll post a report and some analysis later this week.
Also, it seems we are getting new split cards. Here's hoping one of them is playable with good costs for counterbalance. :)
Hope to see your report soon Brian 😊
Unknown opponent, g1 on the play, with Brainstorm and Top in hand.
Island go (hold BS in response to combo or discard)
Island Top go?
This depends on a lot on the other cards in your hand, but the times where I leave up t1 Brainstorm, have a Top in hand, and I don't have Spell Pierce in hand are when I have a Counterbalance, another 2cc card, and a blue land that isn't a fetch so I can "blind" flip a 2 on their second turn. I usually do this only when I couldn't handle a two drop otherwise, maybe I don't have an STP in said hand for a Bob, Goyf or Pierce or Cspell for a Hymn or other powerful two drops.
Mostly agree, except I'd never leave pierce up against an unknown, getting top down is more important.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shawn
Every time I try to run 4 Jace he clogs up my hand. Is this ever an issue for you? As much as I love Jace 4 seems like too much.Quote:
Originally Posted by sauce
Likewise. The opportunity to play a Top without having to worry about Spell Pierce or Daze is usually too good to pass up. Even against known opponents, almost the only time I'd hold up Brainstorm is to protect something specific (most likely a Counterbalance) from suspected discard. Being able to set up your t2 Counterbalance with a 2 or 3 drop can also be valid, but that can sometimes be a wasteful play against a careful GBx player.Quote:
Originally Posted by alphastryk
Here's another similar question... How often do you find yourself FoWing a t1 Top in the mirror? (Or FoWing back if they FoW yours?) I tend to pull the trigger if a) I'm trying to force through my own Top or b) if they are casting a Top and I don't have one of my own. Perhaps either or both these scenarios are too wasteful?
Note - I'm assuming this is for the RIP version, as that would be the true mirror for me and I would still have all my forces.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dzra
Another good one to discuss. I'm going to break it down into a few different questions:
1) Forcing our opponent's turn one top in the mirror
Unless we have to pitch a very high value card to do it (mostly thinking of Jace), I'm for it. Sometimes they have the second top to punish you, but the mirror is so much about hitting land drops on time it is worth it.
2) Protecting our own turn one top by forcing back in the mirror
I think the relevant things to consider are:
- Do we have another (obvious, but worth remembering. this also could include having an enlightened tutor to find another). If so, let them throw away two cards
- What card did they pitch to protect it? (the higher value the card the more likely I am to force back, as their hand likely relies more heavily on top).
- What card do we have to pitch? is it as good or better than top (jace, brainstorm)? if so, we might want to consider holding back even if we don't want them to have it.
3) Protecting our own turn one top by forcing back against an unknown blue deck
- What did they pitch? do we now know what they are playing? if so, do we need the force for something else? is the rest of our hand good for the matchup?