[Deck] Dredge

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Originally Posted by Fizzeler

That is a very interesting Manaless, build

I am curious on the option to exclude Gigapede? or is it to slow for manaless?

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Compared to Phantasmagorian it's a terrible reward on investment in terms of MD slots, I personally play the White Chancellor in the Dryad Arbor slot because I don't see any need for Contagian in the SB when you're playing with Flayer of the Hatebound MD, unless they're for Scavenging Ooze? But even that doesn't seem very good to me, because you can only kill Scavening Ooze if they don't have any mana to activate it the turn they play. If Scavenging Ooze is the reason he's playing Contagian, then he should probably be playing Sickening Shoal instead, no way Knight of the Reliquary lives thru' Sickening Shoal pitching Griselbrand.

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Originally Posted by Final Fortune

@Gui
Hold the number of Putrid Imp and Tireless Tribe constant and find whether or not the value of the 11th Tarnished Citadel or the 12th Breakthrough is less than the 12th Golgari Thug for opening hands and mulligans.

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You can assume we always have to start the hand with a Dredger if you want, altho' I think hands with Careful Study + Breakthrough or Faithless Looting + Lion's Eye Daimond or Cephalid Coliseum, Breakthrough and Lion's Eye Diamond are keepable personally.

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I can do this kind of change, and consider all keepable hands instead combo hands, but I prefer to analyse the chance to have a combo opening instead, or else I'll be biased to remove all my draw spells to add other utilities xD

Combo hands for your list, up to mull to 4:
raw: 75.4%
raw -1 BT +1 thug: 75.9%
raw -1BT +1 tarnished: 75.7%
raw -2BT +1 thug +1 tarnished: 76%
raw -3 tireless +1 thug +2 DR: 74.4%

Notice that the small difference in % is actually due to the fact that it's already a somewhat high percentage, it gets harder to improve im percentage as it goes up. Do 1/(1-x) to see how many avarage games you will play until you screw up, for example, 1/(1-75%) -> screw 1 game out of 4.

Here's the code, in Java
https://docs.google.com/folder/d/0B_...M4WDVjWXM/edit

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I've been debating -3 Tireless Tribe for +1 Golgari Thug and +2 Dread Return for awhile in this list and just playing my post-board configuration for Dredge G1 to save on the board space, altho' I'm at a loss for what I'd use it for ...

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This is like the advantage of having pimp as outlet, you can't quantify the value of having DRs over discard. Discard will obviously help on having more decent hands, but DR can help in a non-trivial number of situations.

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Originally Posted by Final Fortune

Compared to Phantasmagorian it's a terrible reward on investment in terms of MD slots, I personally play the White Chancellor in the Dryad Arbor slot because I don't see any need for Contagian in the SB when you're playing with Flayer of the Hatebound MD, unless they're for Scavenging Ooze?

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Why would you play Chancellor of the Annex main when you can bring him into the sideboard against cards like Relic/etc.? I mean, it has utility and I get its purpose, but it doesn't seem like it would necessitate a slot main at this point.

Dryad Arbor serves the purpose of Dread Returning faster, making tokens faster, having a mana source in the deck before even going to the sideboard (alleviating some pressure off more lands coming in post-board), stacks on Nether Shadow as a creature, attacking, working well with Therapy and being able to lure tokens off of Bridges when facing Wasteland. And it's a mana source.

It's a perfectly acceptable idea and I feel as though its utility speaks for itself. You can replace it with anything else, but I like what it brings to the table and the fabric of the deck.

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But even that doesn't seem very good to me, because you can only kill Scavening Ooze if they don't have any mana to activate it the turn they play. If Scavenging Ooze is the reason he's playing Contagian, then he should probably be playing Sickening Shoal instead, no way Knight of the Reliquary lives thru' Sickening Shoal pitching Griselbrand.

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I forgot about Shoal, thanks. I swapped them out.

Because Chancellor of the Annex offsets the disadvantage of allowing our opponents to play first by choosing to draw, where Dryad Arbor is only a 1/1 creature you have to play from your hand game 1 and only makes sense in your MD if you need to free SB space for Sickening Shoal vs Maverick.

I understand why you'd choose to play Dryad Arbor MD, I just don't think it's necessary to play Dryad Arbor MD because it's not as good as Chancellor of the Annex, or more comparitively Chancellor of the Forge, MD G1 and you may never see a Leyline of the Void for the entire tournament.

Yeah, I figured the Contagion was the anti-Maverick card, Sickening Shoal is better at it because it destroys Knight of the Reliquary as well.

I think the deck is fine with Dryad Arbor, but considering the deck is a gambit to begin with, I just prefer to ignore Leyline of the Void altogether and play the best MD I can.

Hi everyone!

I'm bothering you again, this time with a question concerning the way to play certain match-Ups.
Especially I'm talking about AggroLoam. I lost 0-2 from a guy who played a turn 2 Knight of the Reliquary with a Mox Diamond. I saw in my mind the specter of Bojuka Bog and tried not to overcommit, but next turn Bog arrived with no delay. It wiped away my grave, then a Wasteland destroyed my gemstone Mine. Tried to restart, but didn't manage because of the clock of Knight and a Tarmo.

I sided in 1x Griselbrand and 1x Dread Return (2 DR total) for 1 land and 1 Thug, 4x Firestorm for 3 PImp and 1 Breakthrough. Tried to bring in Firestorm in order to destroy KotR before it could grab Bog, but can't deal with a deck running 3x Bojuka Bog, 2x Tormod's Crypt, 3x Surgical Extraction, 2x Engineered Explosives, 2x Maelstrom Pulse. Plus Life from the Loam for recurring Bogs.

Tell me how to play this Match-Up, because I think it's very very difficult! :cry:

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Originally Posted by Ghiwo

Hi everyone!

I'm bothering you again, this time with a question concerning the way to play certain match-Ups.
Especially I'm talking about AggroLoam. I lost 0-2 from a guy who played a turn 2 Knight of the Reliquary with a Mox Diamond. I saw in my mind the specter of Bojuka Bog and tried not to overcommit, but next turn Bog arrived with no delay. It wiped away my grave, then a Wasteland destroyed my gemstone Mine. Tried to restart, but didn't manage because of the clock of Knight and a Tarmo.

I sided in 1x Griselbrand and 1x Dread Return (2 DR total) for 1 land and 1 Thug, 4x Firestorm for 3 PImp and 1 Breakthrough. Tried to bring in Firestorm in order to destroy KotR before it could grab Bog, but can't deal with a deck running 3x Bojuka Bog, 2x Tormod's Crypt, 3x Surgical Extraction, 2x Engineered Explosives, 2x Maelstrom Pulse. Plus Life from the Loam for recurring Bogs.

Tell me how to play this Match-Up, because I think it's very very difficult! :cry:

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Are you sure this was Aggro Loam and not The Rock? Many Loam decks I know are RGB as they tend to play Countryside Crusher and Grim Lavamancer

Regardless for Loam the general strategy would be to bring in Leyline of the Void and Leyline of Sanctity if you have them in your board. Game 1 the deck is slow and they generally don't have any way to search for their 1 Bog (which again is why I think you may have been playing The Rock). Loam has a lot of discard and recurrable disruption you need to be quick game 1 and when therapying hit their threats.

For The Rock, I am not to sure, save Knight and Ooze need to be considered and GSZ. If they do run Loam and Darkblast you need to be a lot faster than them, fortunately their turn 1 Hymn To Tourach isn't the worst as it can hit Dredgers.

It was a strange version, probably The Rock, you're right, but I saw even Swords to Plowshares and red spells...

I think it's a really difficult match up, a deck very hard to deal with!

did someone have ever tryed Stifle as SB in Dredge???

I start think about it not just to stop crypts and bojugas, but to complete counter Belcher and storm decks.

Other nice interaction may be available... What do you guys think about ???

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Originally Posted by Ghiwo

It was a strange version, probably The Rock, you're right, but I saw even Swords to Plowshares and red spells...

I think it's a really difficult match up, a deck very hard to deal with!

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Red spells, maybe Punishing Fire combo?

Overall if they are the Creature heavier version of The Rock, you just need to be faster and don't keep a hand where their discard spells will hurt you a lot (like they turn 1 Duress see you have 1 discard outlet and now you're stuck for a few turns).

If they are playing the token heavy version you don't need to worry as much about Pernicious Deed, as it generally wraths their board, but they do play 3-4 Maelstrom Pulse main, meaning you should be using your Zombie tokens to strip their hand with Therapy as one well timed Pulse can eat all your zombie tokens, fortunately it is a sorcery

They are the control deck that is very important to remember

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Originally Posted by Dravus Mallinard

did someone have ever tryed Stifle as SB in Dredge???

I start think about it not just to stop crypts and bojugas, but to complete counter Belcher and storm decks.

Other nice interaction may be available... What do you guys think about ???

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Interesting idea. If I'd play hate against storm, I'd play Leyline of Sanctity which is free (considering I'll mulligan for it), but Stifle is more frustrating for them, and fights Sneak Attack, Griselbrand, Stoneforge Mystic, Miracle, etc.
But idk if it's optimal.

Stifle doesn't accomplish anything Nature's Claim already does.

Stifle causes us to sit around with one mana open which isn't something dredge can do.
It is also very narrow against cards such as Tormod's Crypt, where as cards like Ancient Grudge can hit Batterskull, Jitte, or Aether Vial.

Stifle against storm isn't too great either. If a storm player can play around Stifle + free countermagic in the form of Canadian Thresh then how good is Stifle in our deck? Do you want to pass your turn without doing anything against a storm deck so you can have mana open?

Leyline of Sanctity is great against narrow cards like Bog and Crypt, but won't help against Cage or Surgical Extraction. Also, Leyline is actually bad against Storm decks with Belcher being the only exception as to a storm deck that Leyline is possibly good against.

Why is Leyline of Sanctity bad against storm if it prevents tendrils and brainfreeze?

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Originally Posted by Calado

Why is Leyline of Sanctity bad against storm if it prevents tendrils and brainfreeze?

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It is better to race those decks while disrupting with Cabal Therapy.

We are a combo deck. Every card we side out dilutes are deck a little more making our deck just a little slower.

Leyline doesn't do much against storm decks either. When those decks are comboing off, via Time Spiral or Ad Nauseum, more often than not they will find a bounce spell for the Leyline anyway.

No single permanent/spell really slows down storm that much, unless it is backed by significant pressure. They just need to find a discard spell or removal spell with a tutor to go off, which if it something that they can do after ramping up the storm count, ect often isn't that hard to do.

Adding leyline I think slows dredge down (removing pressure), without having a huge impact on the board.

Against storm I usually just try to race them, and value hands were I can hit them with one or more therapies by turn 2. I bring in things like the extra breakthrough, dread return, ect.

Firestorm has just become a permanent addition to my SB,

http://castlesandcooks.com/wp-conten...d-militant.jpg

Between Judge's Familiar and Dryad Militant the Maverick matchup is not going to be a walk in the park anymore, the Cursecatcher effect and T2 GSZ -> Hate Lion are pretty worrysome IMO.

Stifle

pro:
- negates Crypt / Relic / Bok / Knight ( for one turn) / Ooze ( once) / etc.
- can also be unsed against indirect hate ( such as Stoneforge, Jitte, Batterskull, etc.), Storm, etc.

contra:
- does nothing against Surgical / Extirpate / Leyline/ Wheel / Cage / etc. ( hence we'd still need to play Claim / Chain in our board and SB space is limited)
- doesn't interact well with LED ( since we like to win as soon as possible against those pesky Stormdecks we can't afford it to keep the LED uncracked, in order to leave the Stifle in our hand)
- needs open Mana ( which sucks, as we'd like to spend our mana in the early turns to develop our board [ or yard])


Since the current hate, that we have to face, is usually Surgical, Cage or Leyline ( if we cast Maverick aside for a moment) Stifle is only going to take away SB space form cards like Ashen Ghoul, Leyline of the Void, Firestorm, etc.


Also here are the two golden rules "How to know if a card has allready been disscused in this thread":

1. Is the card a legacy staple ? ( if you answer yes than there is a good chance that you aren't the first one who thought about it)

2. Does the card fight a new typ of hate that hasn't been around for more than 6 months? ( If you answer with no than there are most likely cards that allready fight those hate and do better than your card)

3. Was the card just spoiled ? ( If you answer with yes than you should better hurry, since you aren't the only one keeping track of the spoilers)

Lets compare such classy cards as Entomb or Stifle ( which keep on coming back to the discussion every 6-12 months) to a card like Ashen Ghoul or Tortured Existence.

When you look at Stifle / Entomb you should honestly ask yourself: "Did no one was ingenious enough to test them in the deck, yet ? Am I the first one who has this great idea that no one has ever thought about?"

Sooner or later you'll realize that there might be a slight chance that someone else allready had the same idea as you.


Dryad Militant

Is the card confirmed yet? At least we get to keep our Birdge and Creatures, but taking Therapies away for free, combined with the ridiculous casting cost ( remember when Savanah Lion used to be a rare?), is going to be a pain in the ass.
And we can't even savely rely on Darkblast :frown: .

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Originally Posted by Felidae

Dryad Militant

Is the card confirmed yet? At least we get to keep our Birdge and Creatures, but taking Therapies away for free, combined with the ridiculous casting cost ( remember when Savanah Lion used to be a rare?), is going to be a pain in the ass.
And we can't even savely rely on Darkblast :frown: .

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Yup. This is going to be a beating. I'm thinking of changing to a Manaless build and relying less on playing spells.

http://media.wizards.com/images/magi...hqpt6ek_en.jpg

This is from the official card image gallery on the mothership :(

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Originally Posted by Pltnmngl

Yup. This is going to be a beating. I'm thinking of changing to a Manaless build and relying less on playing spells.

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You won't even get Dread Return in a Manaless build with this on the table. All we'll have are Ichorids and Nether Shadows. (And to a lesser extent Narcomoebas.)

This creature is devastating to Dredge if it hits the table. And on a side-note, Dryad Militant seems outstanding in Vintage.