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Some people love 4 Hymns, but I do not prefer it. If I were you I would cut them for either thoughtseizes, extra strix, extra jace, extra toxic deluge, extra creeping tar pit, md sylvan library, or extra lili (depending on what you have and what you want to be good against).Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaytron
Thoughtseizes make you better vs combo, Jace/Tar Pit/Sylvan make you better against Miracles, Sylvan/Deluge/Lili/Strix/Jace make you better against other fair/midrange decks.
I agree that 4 Hymns seems like a lot, especially if Delver isn't great for your meta. I'd cut 1-2 for any of the options that ironclad suggested, depending on your playstyle. I've loved 1-of Tombstalker, but others' results haven't been as good. If you want to try it, I'd pair it with a 4th Visions, a second Jace, a second Deluge, a Thoughtseize, or an extra MD removal spell.
I have much larger issues with the sideboard. Notion Theif is probably the single worst card that's widely played in Shardless. It's only good in the mirror and against Miracles, and that's at least as much because it costs four and has Flash as because of the card drawing ability. Getting someone with it in response to Brainstorm, a Top flip, or Visions is great, but the floor on the card is being a strictly worse Vendilion Clique. I also think that Surgical Extraction is the worst Graveyard hate available to the deck.
Cool, thanks! I'll post a new list soonQuote:
Originally Posted by ironclad8690
Notion Thief is kind of a pet card. Hahaha. I want to slam it once in response to a brainstorm effect before I die, so I can say that I've truly lived.Quote:
Originally Posted by btm10
What would you recommend for SB options in place for the 3?
I like Surgical because honestly, I've had success with it in Delver. I didn't really think to try anything else... Maybe go with Cage instead?
I have actually really enjoyed Notion Thief vs not only Miracles and Shardless, but also against UW/x Blade, the Hymn version of BUG Delver, Sneak and Show, Reanimator, Storm, Elves, Omnitell, Nic Fit, and even others.
Vs the fair blue decks, especially Miracles, the difference between drawing a card and not drawing a card is so great that I often win almost immediately after casting Notion. It certainly has upped my Deathblade %.
Against the combo decks, it pitches to force and is better to Show and Tell in than Tarmogoyf. I could see not bringing it in vs Storm, but I like upping the blue count, and if they go for the grind plan it can be quite good. Elves I can often survive the first couple turns but then get ground out by their superior card draw (unless I just get the sweeper.dec draw). Thief prevents a Glimpse comeback from an empty board at least.
I run a 1/1/1 split of Leyline of the Void/Planar Void/Nihil Spellbomb as my Graveyard hate since you really need those slots to pull their weight against Storm and Lands as well as against Dredge and Reanimator. You lose a bit of utility against Elves, but our other SB options are so good in that matchup that I don't think Cage is a dealbreaker. The reason I don't like Surgical I'm Shardless is that it's a terrible Cascade since you generally want to hit whatever you're Extracting while something is on the stack or your opponent is tapped out. Leyline is generally going to be hardcastable in games you can win, and having it in an opener is great since you already have a strong incentive to mulligan to specific cards in the matchups where you want it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaytron
Looks like my luck is turning around:
5-0
Eldrazi: 2-0
Belcher: 2-0
Sultai Turbo Depths: 2-0
Deathblade: 2-1 (thanks to Notion Thief here)
Miracles: 2-1 (another shout out to Notion Thief)
List in sig is updated. Toxic Deluge #2 has been over-performing. I have also started a new league and am 2-1 (Burn 1-2, Grixis Delver 2-0, Grixis Delver 2-0). I think with my list Grixis is about as good as it can be, they just shit everything onto the board and it just takes 1 Toxic Deluge to turn it around. Having 2 means you find one when you need it.
Nice job! I'm really far from making the deck on MTGO myself lol. I only have Grixis Delver on MTGO unfortunately.Quote:
Originally Posted by ironclad8690
Taking into consideration all the recommendations here, this is what I've come up with:
http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/03-05...shardless-bug/
Moved it over to Tapped out, because mtggoldfish apparently doesn't let you edit or search for your own decks lol. I ended going with Sylvan and Deluge main because my meta is really heavy on the fair decks. Lots of DnT and Delver decks running around.
I have one last slot open in the board. Debating on a TNN to hold that spicy Jitte (my meta is extremely fair) or a Clique to help a bit vs combo? I've really liked EE in Grixis Delver, but it seems like a terrible cascade.
General question for you all:
Vs Combo Vs Fair Decks Vs Miracles... what are your general cuts/bring ins?
I feel like Vs Fair Decks, you just drop forces, and possibly Jace to bring in more removal
-4 FoW -1 Jace,
+ 1 Disfigure +1 Dismember +1 Jitte +2 Golgari Charm..
I want Null Rod/Needle vs SFM decks.. but not sure what else I can drop. Maybe I drop 2 Baleful Strix vs SFM decks to bring in Needle/Null Rod?
Notion Thief would be nice vs blue decks, but I don't think there's room or a need.
Vs Combo
Unsure? Hymn seems bad vs Reanimator/Storm but okay vs other combo decks.
So vs Reanimator:
-2 Baleful Strix -2 Toxic Deluge -1 Maelstrom Pulse -2 Hymn -1 Goyf
+1 Nihil Spellbomb +3 Thoughtseize +1 Notion Thief +1 Null Rod +1 Leyline of the Void +1 Grafdigger's Cage
vs Storm feels like it would be pretty similar. Vs something like Sneak/show favor the hymns and goyf.. drop the grave hate.
Vs Miracles
-4 FoW -1 WL
+2 Golgari Charm +1 Notion Thief +1 Null Rod +1 Pithing Needle
Let me know what you guys think! Also still looking for the last SB card. Maybe more fair deck hate like NoSB or Engineered Plague? Also could be Loam with WL being pretty common in my local meta?
Jace goes vs Delver, but stays in against slower decks/bug Delver with Hymns. Too good of a topdeck and if it survives for longer than a turn you pull so far ahead.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaytron
I like Hymn vs Storm, but I usually cut vs Reanimator.
I leave in FOW and Waste vs Miracles, I cut 2 Strixes, 1 Goyf, 1 Deathrite, 1 Ancestral vs Miracles for 1 Sylvan, 1 Vendilion , 1 Notion Thief, 1 Pithing Needle, 1 Null Rod. I have no idea if this is correct, but it has been working pretty well for me.
Intteresting on keeping the FoW and WL. I've taken WL out all the time in Delver because they can easily play around it. I don't like FoW because of the card disadvantage. Maybe Shardless doesn't care because it gets so much value otherwise? Do you not bring in Golgari charms in case there's a RiP or Blood Moon? Or just rely on your Decays for those?Quote:
Originally Posted by ironclad8690
I board pretty fluidly based on what my opponent does. Against Miracles I assume they're on the "overload Decay" plan and bring in Golgari Charm to supplement my Decays and MD Maelstrom Pulse, then cut them for game 3 if I didn't see any hateful permanents (though not seeing Blood Moon or RiP usually indicates that something like Ruination is lurking).
But as general guidelines with your 75:
Against Grixis, RUG, or BUG Delver:
-2 Hymn to Tourach
-1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
(-1 Sylvan Library)
+1 Disfigure
+1 Dismember
+1 Jitte
(+1 Golgari Charm)
Against BUG Delver with Hymn or Grixis Delver if they try to board into a midrange deck:
-2 Force
-1 Hymn
+1 Disfigure
+1 Dismember
+1 Jitte
Against midrange decks:
-4 Force
+1 Disfigure
+1 Dismember
+1 Jitte
+1 X (as appropriate; Golgari Charm if you see TNN, Needle/Null Rod/Thoughtseize against Stoneforge Mystic decks, etc.)
Against Death and Taxes
-4 Force
-2 Strix
-1 Vision
+2 Golgari Charm
+1 Disfigure
+1 Dismember
+1 Jitte
+1 Null Rod
+1 Pithing Needle
against ANT:
-4 Decay
-1 Maelstrom Pulse
-1 Strix
-1 Goyf
-1 Forest
+3 Thoughtseize
+1 Cage
+1 Leyline
+1 Spellbomb
+1 Null Rod
+1 Golgari Charm
Reanimator is similar, except you cut Hymns and Deluges and leave the Decays and Strix in, and don't bring in Null Rod or Golgari Charm.
Against Sneak and Show:
-2 Decay
-1 Goyf
-1 Tar Pit
-1 Maelstrom Pulse
+2 Golgari Charm
+3 Thoughtseize
Against Miracles:
-1 Hymn
-2 Deluge
-1 Bayou
-1 Tropical Island
+1 Null Rod
+1 Pithing Needle
+1 Notion Thief
+1 Golgari Charm
Switch the Hymn/Deluge cuts if they have Monastery Mentor.
ironclad - I have to say that I'm surprised that we've come to such different conclusions on basically all of the flex slots.
Thanks a bunch for those guidelines! Any reason why you only bring singleton Golgari Charms in some matchups? Just lack of space?
Any recommendations for my last SB slot?
Mostly a lack of space. In most matchups where you want a second Golgari Charm cutting a Visions isn't an issue. As for your last slot, I'd probably go with a Clique, Engineered Plague, Disfigure, Diabolic Edict, or Duress depending on your meta.
Edit: I've been meaning to test a 1-of Hindering Touch somewhere in the 75 since I love squeezing miser's counterspells into Shardless. Forbid and Dissipate were subpar, even though buyback is randomly awesome. Dimir Charm was reliably great when it killed basically every non-Goyf creature in Legacy in addition to being a hard counter for 2/3 of the things you wanted non-Force countermagic for. I had forgotten about the OG Flusterstorm until I found it in a stack of old cards over the weekend. You could always run that as your 15th SB card.
Oh man, that card looks sweet. HahahhaQuote:
Originally Posted by btm10
My meta is super fair (lots of dnt and delver), so I was thinking of Engineered Plague or NoSB. There are maybe one or two lands players. Not much combo.
Then again, my mainboard is already pretty biased vs fair decks already. Should I not dedicate more SB slots for it? Maybe a Clique would be nice to help vs combo and Miracles. Maybe just a random flusterstorm? I see Loam played in a lot of sideboards. WL is fairly prevalent in my meta, could be useful?
I might even go with another disfigure, it is very helpful as a 1 mana answer to most things that they play (they will be denying your mana too, so the cost is very important).Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaytron
You would think that, but since this is a midrange deck with disruption there are more effective ways of answering your opponents creatures, and as such usually about 1/3 of most Shardless sideboards are for fair decks and the other 2/3 are for Miracles/unfair decks.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaytron
I do love Clique, but then again I play online where you are basically guaranteed to play against Miracles 1-3 times in 5 matches.
Flustertorm could be useful, but If you don't have much combo I don't see the point in wasting a slot on a bad cascade. Loam is only really good when you are aheadd/even on board, and vs most decks you will be struggling to come back from behind. I mostly use loam for the midrange mirrors, slower delver decks, and above all else Lands.
Thanks for the insight Ironclad!
Yeah, there are a few local miracles players, and one guy that almost always runs lands. Maybe it does just need to be Disfigure for now.
At both btm10 and Ironclad
Vs Miracles, what's the argument against cutting WL?
With Delver, it feels like a pretty dead draw a lot of the time since they'll play around it fairly easily.
btm, I noticed you cut colored sources anyways, why not cut WL instead?
I actually end up winning a lot of games by keeping them off of 4-5 mana so they can't land AND protect Jace with an STP. They can sometimes play around Wasteland, but it's not actually as easy for them to do as you might think. Once they get to 6 mana they can just do a couple high impact things per turn.
If cutting Waste works for you then by all means go for it though.
You can't go wrong with more spot removal in the board, especially if it's turn 1 removal like Disfigure or Dismember.
I cut (nonbasic) colored sources against Miracles because they don't run Wasteland to punish me for it and I plan to fetch Forest early to play around Blood Moon anyway. In addition to ironclad's point about keeping them off of 5+ mana, many Miracles players also don't run basic Mountain (and only 1-2 Volcs) despite many of their best cards in the matchup being Red, which makes the Wastelands that connect better than they otherwise would be. Another use is Wasting their uncracked fetches after a Brainstorm or Ponder, or to making sure you don't get hit by a floating Terminus/Entreat when they flip the Top or even before running out a second/third creature. Most people won't let you just get fetches with Wasteland, and if they do, you know to not run out a creature or hold up Force.
Ultimately Shardless is a deck that you need to find your own approach to. I value mana efficiecy, tempo, and flexibility very highly, which is why I like cards like Dimir Charm, Tombstalker, Force of Will, and Maelstrom Pulse and dislike Notion Theif, Loam, and Jitte, despite lots of people having success with those cards.
Very well said BTM. One of the coolest things about Shardless is that, as a midrange deck, you can pick an approach that works for you/pick the tools that best accomplish that goal.
BTM, can I see your list?
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Shardless Agent
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Baleful Strix
1 Tombstalker
4 Force of Will
4 Abrupt Decay
2 Hymn to Tourach
1 Thoughtseize
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Toxic Deluge
2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Brainstorm
3 Ancestral Vision
4 Polluted Delta
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Misty Rainforest
4 Wasteland
3 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island
2 Bayou
1 Swamp
1 Forest
Sideboard
2 Disfigure
2 Duress
2 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Thoughtseize
1 Golgari Charm
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Null Rod
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Dismember
1 Planar Void
1 Sylvan Library