[Deck] Team America (BUG Delver)

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Originally Posted by btm10

I posted something similar in the Team America (Midrange/Control) thread and discussed this with Sturtzilla earlier today. I actually tried Dig in something like Phimus Pan's BUG Control list when Khans was first spoiled and while it was really good, the Dig Through Time decks were just too fast and too efficient to keep up. Recent testing has suggested that Liliana is still great against lots of random decks - including Grixis if you have other ways to contain Pyromancer - but not as good with Dig as she is with Visions. I'm embarrassed to say that despite testing something very similar and going down to a 1/2 Jace/Liliana split, I never cut them entirely or moved off of spot discard in favor of Hymn. I think (as I said in the other thread) that Koepke's list is likely a little too redundant for a list with 8 cantrips and 4 Digs - 4 Daze is probably a little much and a land can likely be shaved somewhere, just on inspection.

As for why people run Delver in BUG, you still get a lot of free wins off of Delver + Daze and don't lose that much in terms of going long.

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The deck looked pretty sweet from what I saw of it. I agree that it's probably a bit too redundant for 8 cantrips and 4 digs. One thing I did notice was that the deck was prone to long periods of durdling, during which multiple cantrips would be fired off in the quest for an answer to say, a Gurmag Angler, because the number of answers were so low. Also, the only card in the deck with appreciable closing speed is Goyf, so it also tended to take awhile to kill anyone. It might be worth exploring a similar shell with a few more high-impact one-off spells (maelstrom pulse, for example) and possibly a couple cards that can close the game out faster (trading a dig for a tombstalker/tasigur/angler, adding a true-name for a strix). I would personally miss the closing speed that delver brings to the table over strix, but that's a personal preference rather than an objective evaluation of which gameplan is better. But overall, minor criticisms of what was otherwise a really cool deck.

LANDS (20)
2 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
4 Underground Sea
4 Polluted Delta
1 Misty Rainforest
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland

SPELLS (27)
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
3 Force of Will
3 Hymn to Tourach
4 Ponder
2 Liliana of the Veil
2 Thoughtseize
1 Toxic Deluge

CREATURES (13)
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Tasigur, the Golden Fang


SB: 2 Golgari Charm
SB: 2 Spell Pierce
SB: 2 Disfigure
SB: 1 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 1 Null Rod
SB: 1 Nihil Spellbomb
SB: 1 Krosan Grip
SB: 1 Vendilion Clique
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Dread of Night
SB: 1 Sylvan Library
SB: 1 Force of Will

Meta here are plenty of Grixis delvers, RUG, Miracles, Jeskai and Omnitel. So many removal that's why I don't put tombstalker on my list. I'm currently deciding whether to change banana man to Gurmag Angler since karakas is my main concern against DnT and some miracles. Comments are welcome and thanks for the inputs

Greetings All!

Another week, Legacy local event. I went 3-1 again this week beating Elves (2-1), MUD (2-0), and ANT (2-0) due to players dropping, while losing to BUG Control (1-2). I kept the changes that I had made last week to the sideboard: -1 Pithing Needle and -1 Flusterstorm for +1 Engineered Plague and +1 Trygon Predator. My thoughts being that I wanted a repeatable means by which to combat the artifacts out of MUD and I wanted a more permanent means to fight the Elves deck that I knew were in the room. I actually faced both of these match ups and was rewarded for these sideboard cards in both matches.

Round 1: Elves - (2-1)

My opponent keeps one landers all three games. I am able to capitalize in games two and three very well. I was able to resolve Engineered Plague in game two which basically wiped his board and locked him out. Delvers earned me the win in game two and did so again game three albeit with some help from Deathrite. I nearly died in game three to a Craterhoof, but a Stifle turned off the enters the battlefield trigger, which softened the damage and allowed me to sneak the win.


Round 2: MUD - (2-0)

Game one I have Delver into double Goyf. I had to fight through a Wurmcoil Engine, but a Stifle stopped the token generation and eventually the Insect kills him. Game two I have the literal nuts: fetchlands x2, Deathrite, Trygon Predator, FoW, Spell Pierce, Ponder. A turn two Predator turns this game very one-sided. I basically get to play with a one sided Abyss. The Predator eats his best permanent each turn, while I help the counter spells for big, dumb Planeswalkers. As it turns out, this is probably a realistic plan for this match up.


Round 3: BUG Control - (1-2)

I misassign roles in this match up. I don't see a Jace or Strix until game three at which point, I had boarded for the mirror. This costs me the match. Thinking back there was a turn that had I played more conservative, to protect Garruk Relentless, I might have been able to win. I will have to think a bit about this match up.


Round 4: ANT - (2-0)

I have good openers in both games with Delver and disruption. In game one, my opponent Brainstorms into Tendrils, Past in Flames, and Ad Nasuem with no way to shuffle. This buys me tons of time and I get to Delver him out. In game two he mulligans to 5 and more or less the same thing happens. I had been thinking about tuning a bit for this match up, in that maybe a Flusterstorm or two would be good. I am not sure if it is necessary. The maindeck is probably decent in the first place.


I did cast and resolve Garruk this week, but due to some aggressive play, he died quickly. I think had I been more conservative, Garruk would have been able to help me stabilize. Again, maybe next time. Anyway, my 3-1 record was good for 3rd place this week. I think the ANT match up is fine. The MUD match up can get really out of hand very quickly. A recurring destruction effect worked out well this week. The question is do we want a slower reoccuring effect (Predator) or maybe something a bit faster (Ancient Grudge, Krosan Grip, etc.). I am still not sure. Effects such as Creeping Corrosion and Seeds of Innocence might even be worth considering. I have also been thinking about Arcane Laboratory. It has application in two or three of the match ups that I played in this week, it might be worth giving a shot. If you guys have any thoughts on the MUD or BUG Control match ups, let me know. Thanks for reading!

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Originally Posted by Sturtzilla

Round 2: MUD - (2-0)

Game one I have Delver into double Goyf. I had to fight through a Wurmcoil Engine, but a Stifle stopped the token generation and eventually the Insect kills him. Game two I have the literal nuts: fetchlands x2, Deathrite, Trygon Predator, FoW, Spell Pierce, Ponder. A turn two Predator turns this game very one-sided. I basically get to play with a one sided Abyss. The Predator eats his best permanent each turn, while I help the counter spells for big, dumb Planeswalkers. As it turns out, this is probably a realistic plan for this match up.


Round 3: BUG Control - (1-2)

I misassign roles in this match up. I don't see a Jace or Strix until game three at which point, I had boarded for the mirror. This costs me the match. Thinking back there was a turn that had I played more conservative, to protect Garruk Relentless, I might have been able to win. I will have to think a bit about this match up.


I did cast and resolve Garruk this week, but due to some aggressive play, he died quickly. I think had I been more conservative, Garruk would have been able to help me stabilize. Again, maybe next time. Anyway, my 3-1 record was good for 3rd place this week. I think the ANT match up is fine. The MUD match up can get really out of hand very quickly. A recurring destruction effect worked out well this week. The question is do we want a slower reoccuring effect (Predator) or maybe something a bit faster (Ancient Grudge, Krosan Grip, etc.). I am still not sure. Effects such as Creeping Corrosion and Seeds of Innocence might even be worth considering. I have also been thinking about Arcane Laboratory. It has application in two or three of the match ups that I played in this week, it might be worth giving a shot. If you guys have any thoughts on the MUD or BUG Control match ups, let me know. Thanks for reading!

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I just picked up a Garruk Relentless so I'll be trying him out soon. Predator is probably the solution to MUD - they can't really block it and and they're relying on a fairly small chunk of gas to get rolling in most games. Murderous Cut and Krosan Grip are both great, maybe you want another Thoughtseize too? As for BUG Control - I imagine that Strix and Jace are the main issues here and I can see Garruk being great against it. It's a fairly close matchup from what I remember from last year, but I'm not really sure how it'll play out with fewer Planeswalkers involved. When I was on the Phimus Pan list it was mostly a race to get into the Jace/Liliana grind; I guess here you want to stop them from locking up the ground and from Digging. From playing Control a bit over the past week you really don't seem to cement a lead until you cast Dig. The deck is less reliant on Digging than something like Grixis because more of its cards are powerful as standalone threats, but getting the raw card advantage is important. Disfigure and Golgari Charm are probably important to deal with Goyf stalemates and Strixes. I know it's fairly old tech, but that Negate I ran for like two weeks last year might be good.

EDIT:

This is the BUG Control list I've been testing, for reference:

4 Deathrite Shaman
2 Baleful Strix
3 Tarmogoyf
1 True-Name Nemesis


1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

4 Force of Will
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Hymn to Tourach
2 Toxic Deluge
2 Daze
1 Thoughtseize
1 Counterspell

4 Brainstorm
3 Dig Through Time
2 Ponder
2 Preordain


4 Underground Sea
4 Polluted Delta
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
2 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
1 Misty Rainforest


Sideboard
1 Sylvan Library
2 Disfigure
2 Flusterstorm
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Thoughtseize
2 Null Rod
3 Leyline of the Void
1 Night of Souls' Betrayal
1 Maelstrom Pulse

I top 16'd the SCG PIQ in Indy about a month ago and since then have not had the time to test some recent changes I made and would like some second opinions on the changes if anyone is kind enough to take the time.
Link to the list:http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=86605

Changes are as follows
MB: No change
SB:-1 Grafdigger's Cage- The second copy of cage was only helpful for the reanimator MU and with 1 cage, thoughtseize and deathrite shaman, i felt that i had a spot to free up.
-1 Thoughtsieze- the meta game in the midwest has shifted away from combo and more towards other delver decks, miracles, and death and taxes
+1 Krosan Grip- Top and Batterskull are difficult to deal with and this is a card i wish i had access to the entire event after playing 3 D+T, belcher, and stoneblade
+1 Dread of Night - I was X-2 and played against death and taxes three time with it being both of my losses, also has utility against mentor decks that have shown more numbers following the GP

Thank you for reading and for your feedback!

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Originally Posted by btm10

I just picked up a Garruk Relentless so I'll be trying him out soon. Predator is probably the solution to MUD - they can't really block it and and they're relying on a fairly small chunk of gas to get rolling in most games. Murderous Cut and Krosan Grip are both great, maybe you want another Thoughtseize too? As for BUG Control - I imagine that Strix and Jace are the main issues here and I can see Garruk being great against it. It's a fairly close matchup from what I remember from last year, but I'm not really sure how it'll play out with fewer Planeswalkers involved. When I was on the Phimus Pan list it was mostly a race to get into the Jace/Liliana grind; I guess here you want to stop them from locking up the ground and from Digging. From playing Control a bit over the past week you really don't seem to cement a lead until you cast Dig. The deck is less reliant on Digging than something like Grixis because more of its cards are powerful as standalone threats, but getting the raw card advantage is important. Disfigure and Golgari Charm are probably important to deal with Goyf stalemates and Strixes. I know it's fairly old tech, but that Negate I ran for like two weeks last year might be good.

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The Negate does sound like it might be worth a shot. Hard counters for opposing planeswalkers as well as for combo match ups are a decent way to work this. Golgari Charm or the like for Baleful Strix and True-Name Nemesis also seem strong. I will have to tweak the sideboard and give it another shot tonight.

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Originally Posted by Fencingbrick

I top 16'd the SCG PIQ in Indy about a month ago and since then have not had the time to test some recent changes I made and would like some second opinions on the changes if anyone is kind enough to take the time.
Link to the list:http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=86605

Changes are as follows
MB: No change
SB:-1 Grafdigger's Cage- The second copy of cage was only helpful for the reanimator MU and with 1 cage, thoughtseize and deathrite shaman, i felt that i had a spot to free up.
-1 Thoughtsieze- the meta game in the midwest has shifted away from combo and more towards other delver decks, miracles, and death and taxes
+1 Krosan Grip- Top and Batterskull are difficult to deal with and this is a card i wish i had access to the entire event after playing 3 D+T, belcher, and stoneblade
+1 Dread of Night - I was X-2 and played against death and taxes three time with it being both of my losses, also has utility against mentor decks that have shown more numbers following the GP

Thank you for reading and for your feedback!

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This is a hard question to answer as context is very important. If you are planning on hitting up another SCG PIQ then I think that your proposed changes look fine. I agree that there has been an increase in the number of Monastery Mentors being played. Death and Taxes can be a heard match up. Due to both of these items, a sideboard Dread of Night is probably a fine call. I have been running Engineered Plague in the same capacity. It can take out Monk tokens, hits all of the Humans in DnT, and is basically a blow out in the Elves match up. I think no artifact destruction is really asking for trouble. Krosan Grip gives you a way to interact with Top and Batterskull, while also hitting Counterbalance and Blood Moon. The :g: mana specificity really helps with getting out from under a Blood Moon that has resolved. I think I would agree with your plan here of -1 Cage and -1 Thoughtseize for +1 KGrip and +1 Dread of Night. These both seem like good ways to diversify. How did the maindeck Murderous Cut work out for you? I find that and interesting call. If you are planning on playing at a small event or weekly at your LGS, then I am not sure how to help. Local metas are hard to predict and vary in their rate of change. So if that is the case, I would play and then tune based on what I observed being played for the next week. I hope this helps.

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Originally Posted by Sturtzilla

The Negate does sound like it might be worth a shot. Hard counters for opposing planeswalkers as well as for combo match ups are a decent way to work this. Golgari Charm or the like for Baleful Strix and True-Name Nemesis also seem strong. I will have to tweak the sideboard and give it another shot tonight.
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If you're planning to play Negate, is it worth just playing Countersquall? How much harder is it to cast?

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Originally Posted by alphastryk

If you're planning to play Negate, is it worth just playing Countersquall? How much harder is it to cast?

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There aren't a whole lot of situations that I can think of where Countersquall is harder (too hard?) to cast; it means holding up two Trops (since you can't cast Negate off of two Bayous anyway) or Blue source + Wasteland, and the first scenario involves awkward draws, a BB spell like Hymn to Tourach, or Port/Wasteland. The ability to cast Negate off of Wasteland isn't insignificant though, since decks like Miracles and Omnitell don't present a ton of Wastelans targets and Wasteland repesents 20% or more of your mana base. BUG Control obviously has plenty of nonbasics, but if you reach the grinding/Dig Through Time stage of the game, Negate is probably better than destroying their fourth or fifth land. I'd test both and see.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sturtzilla

The Negate does sound like it might be worth a shot. Hard counters for opposing planeswalkers as well as for combo match ups are a decent way to work this. Golgari Charm or the like for Baleful Strix and True-Name Nemesis also seem strong. I will have to tweak the sideboard and give it another shot tonight.




This is a hard question to answer as context is very important. If you are planning on hitting up another SCG PIQ then I think that your proposed changes look fine. I agree that there has been an increase in the number of Monastery Mentors being played. Death and Taxes can be a heard match up. Due to both of these items, a sideboard Dread of Night is probably a fine call. I have been running Engineered Plague in the same capacity. It can take out Monk tokens, hits all of the Humans in DnT, and is basically a blow out in the Elves match up. I think no artifact destruction is really asking for trouble. Krosan Grip gives you a way to interact with Top and Batterskull, while also hitting Counterbalance and Blood Moon. The :g: mana specificity really helps with getting out from under a Blood Moon that has resolved. I think I would agree with your plan here of -1 Cage and -1 Thoughtseize for +1 KGrip and +1 Dread of Night. These both seem like good ways to diversify. How did the maindeck Murderous Cut work out for you? I find that and interesting call. If you are planning on playing at a small event or weekly at your LGS, then I am not sure how to help. Local metas are hard to predict and vary in their rate of change. So if that is the case, I would play and then tune based on what I observed being played for the next week. I hope this helps.

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First of thank you for the feedback, the plan is mostly playing in IQ's until the next legacy open in the midwest (st louis in october) and plague has been something i had considered along with toxic deluge but give miracles has significantly more 3's if they have mentors and through thalia 3 mana sorcery speed is somewhat difficult, however the murderous cut has been phenomenal, since i don't play bobs in my version it isn't a huge liabiity and it gives us ways to deal with tasigur and Angler when they have other creatures to absorb liliana edicts. even in the d+t match up its so helpful having a 1 mana removal spell through thalia.

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Originally Posted by alphastryk

If you're planning to play Negate, is it worth just playing Countersquall? How much harder is it to cast?

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Countersquall certainly has some upside in its text; however, Negate's upside is in mana cost/flexibility. I have certainly kept a number of one land hands with this deck, doing so with Countersquall is a bit more dangerous than doing so with Negate. You can cast Negate regardless which two lands, or land plus Deathrite. The same can't always be said about Countersquall due to :u::b: and our deck containing Wastelands. I think that they are both solid but those are the trade-offs you would have to consider.

It's basically the same as an abrupt decay. Leave open a Sea and a Trop and it's mana for either.

From my phone. I do my best, dammit!

@Fencingbrick
I like your list of Sultai Delver, but post side what do you take out and in vs Miracles?

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Originally Posted by JohnBell

@Fencingbrick
I like your list of Sultai Delver, but post side what do you take out and in vs Miracles?

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That depends on several things, first whether im on the play or draw because on the draw you dont want daze in your deck at all and on the play having some number in is reasonable. Also whether it is the version with mentors in the main deck or the sideboard. My general plan is as follows;
On the play:
-2 daze
-2 force of will
-1 murderous cut
-1 tasigur

+2 thoughtseize
+2 pithing needle
+1 library
+1 golgari charm /dread of night (if i see mentor g1)

On the draw:
-4 daze
-1 murderous cut
-1 tasigur

bringing in the same thing as on play

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Fencingbrick

That depends on several things, first whether im on the play or draw because on the draw you dont want daze in your deck at all and on the play having some number in is reasonable. Also whether it is the version with mentors in the main deck or the sideboard. My general plan is as follows;
On the play:
-2 daze
-2 force of will
-1 murderous cut
-1 tasigur

+2 thoughtseize
+2 pithing needle
+1 library
+1 golgari charm /dread of night (if i see mentor g1)

On the draw:
-4 daze
-1 murderous cut
-1 tasigur

bringing in the same thing as on play

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It seems reasonable, only one thing I don't agree: don't you side a Vendilion Clique for Jace TMS?

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Originally Posted by JohnBell

It seems reasonable, only one thing I don't agree: don't you side a Vendilion Clique for Jace TMS?

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i've found JTMS to actually to be significantly worse than the clique against miracles because we don't care about messing with the top of their deck since counterbalance is nothing than a minor annoyance and its usually the first card the side out, clique still interacts with them on the level we want to while still providing a clock. if they are on the mentor plan, they can easily just attack JTMS dead very quickly because simply unsummoning a mentor doesn't do anything if they make 1-2 tokens (which is fairly easy to do). karakas can be fairly annoying but it is already reasonable against us because tasigur, so we do have 4x wasteland after board still and if they bounce our clique thats generally gonna be ok for us. but while yes JTMS is a powerful card, i think it just doesn't necesairly do as much as we would like. although i did realize i left the clique out of my sb plan so just to clarify my SB plan is as follows:

On the play:
-2 daze
-2 force of will
-1 murderous cut
-2 tasigur

+2 thoughtseize
+2 pithing needle
+1 library
+1 Clique
+1 golgari charm /dread of night (if i see mentor g1)

On the draw:
-4 daze
-1 murderous cut
-2 tasigur

bringing in the same thing as on play

i've been using baleful strix in the deck in place of delver.

I really like the card advantage. Goyf and delver becomes our main weapons to end the game.

I have also been using stifle build with 3 bobs. The card advantage is awesome, but I do not think stifle should be in. The reason for that is that baleful usually requires us to go long, but stifle is for a quick early game.

Any suggestions on the replacement?

Maybe wait to drop the Strix until the late early game unless they get down a serious early threat, where Strix acts as removal/threat reliever. That way you can maximize your potential of Stifle. Delver and Strix play different roles, even if they are taking up the same slots. It also ups your curve, so be carefully of that as well. I only play the stifle build, I dislike tapping out on my turn, I like the bluff potential.

From my phone. I do my best, dammit!

I threw my old standby BUG Delver together at the last minute for SCG DC after deciding against something spicier due to a combination of not enough testing and not enough sleep. I finished 4-3 (dropped after my third loss when the rest of my car was dead) and all of my losses were due to either variance or my mistakes. I played the following 75:

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogoyf

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Hymn to Tourach
2 Thoughtseize
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Sylvan Library

8 Fetch
4 Wasteland
4 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
1 Tropical Island

Sideboard

3 Disfigure
2 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Null Rod
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Dread of Night
1 Golgari Charm
1 Krosan Grip
1 Flusterstorm
1 Thoughtseize
1 Spell Pierce
1 Winter Orb

The list performed very well overall, through neither of the MD 1-ofs impressed me. I think I'm going to test those slots as various combinations of TNN, Bob, Spell Pierce (as a 1-for-1 MD/SB swap with Library), Preordain, and Murderous Cut. Delving was never a problem for Goyfs or Deathrites. Obviously this is similar to the BUrG lists that have been putting up results in Europe, but substituting a stable manabase for Lightning Bolts and Red Blasts. I'm not sure where I come down on that debate, but without Blasts I think it's important to make room for answers to Jace. Golgari Charm might be better as Marsh Casualties or Toxic Deluge, though in either of those cases I'd probably cut Winter Orb for something else. One thing I've learned recently is that Loam decks are shockingly easy to mana screw by Decaying /Null Rodding their Mox Diamonds. A Trygon Predator may be coming back to the board for those matchups. Surgical Extraction severely underperformed and is getting cut.

Great to see that someone is still playing the deck! I feel everyone has switched to Grixis and 4c Delver now or to the midrangey Strix list.

Your list is missing two cards, I assume 2 DTT since you speak of delving? Did you not get manascrewed needing BB and UU?

I've tried to make my list a bit more agile and tried to get Delver to flip some more. This resulted in the following:

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Tarmogoyf
2 True Name Nemesis

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Thoughtseize
2 Dig Through Time
2 Spell Pierce

9 Fetch
4 Wasteland
3 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island

EDIT: Board:
1 Disfigure
1 Dread of Night
1 Engineered Plague
1 Murderous Cut
1 Submerge
1 Golgari Charm
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Sylvan Library
1 Null Rod
1 Pithing Needle
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Envelop
1 Flusterstorm
1 Grafdiggers Cage
1 Vendilion Clique
/EDIT

I have tested some games against Storm and Deathblade which were both OK. I'm hoping to take it to a tournament soon.

I'm building this deck and I'm trying to figure out whether I need to invest in Bayous or not (I have full sets of blue fetches and blue duals). In this thread I see lists running anything from 0-2 Bayous. Are these differences budget-dependent or build-dependent?