Printable View
Let's be honest to ourselves here; we run Nimble Mongoose so that when we lay down a a blind Counterbalance, or even assemble the Counterbalance, we don't have to leave a 1cc card on top. Nimble Mongoose is pro Swords to Plowshares. We run Swords to Plowshares against Mishra's Factories... we shouldn't be afraid of assembly workers here...
You're not running mongoose beacuse of the cc1 for CB...you're using them to stop lackey, or apply early pressure against control.
Without mongoose you've a wooping 15 cc1 cards, so on a blind CB, you're probably hitting something with them. People is running 3 at the most, even 2...when a card is so lousy, please consider cutting it for other goodies. On the other hand, we have talk enought on this matter.
You misread his post. He described a board state of CB + Mongoose, in which you don't need to keep a 1cc on the top of your library to stop Swords to Plowshares, just like you have to with you other beaters.Quote:
Originally Posted by Terminator1k
Yep, sorry, tried to edit it , but couldn't for some reason.
Understood, but I still think you don't get the "playable" point with these arguments. The "I don't need to leave 1cc on top to stop plowsares, so I should play mongoose" clause, don't seem good enough to convince me. mongoose WAS ok on threshold, but this is not longer that deck, appart from the name. Your mongoose is a 1/1 no target most of the time, and better get the opp guessing about wasting StP on your trygon or tarmogoyf.
Anyhow, I won't get around on this issue again, I think I gave enough reasons not to play the critter, at least for my point of view. Should you play it, then its ok for you, good luck and win lots of games with it. :rolleyes:
What I have noticed regarding, the new lists cutting mongoose is moving from 4 x 1 CC creature to some amount of 3 cc creatures. Does this significantly affect your ability to defend yourself in the early gameand allow you to still be aggro enough? Also, what happens when you get a land or 2 destroyed/stifled early on, can you guys actually come back from that in a timely fashion as it seems the CMC of the deck is starting to go up?
This is why the people on the thread discuss the 18th land build. The mana costs grow up, but so our ability to balance 3ccs. Your early defense is daze,STP, and FoW.Quote:
What I have noticed regarding, the new lists cutting mongoose is moving from 4 x 1 CC creature to some amount of 3 cc creatures. Does this significantly affect your ability to defend yourself in the early gameand allow you to still be aggro enough? Also, what happens when you get a land or 2 destroyed/stifled early on, can you guys actually come back from that in a timely fashion as it seems the CMC of the deck is starting to go up?
With FIVE basics and eight fetches, you've got what it takes to build up your game plan. On the other hand, if you suspect stifle, wait until you can fetch safely (counter backup if you feel so). The deck with stifle is delaying it's gameplan, and there is a point when it doesn't hurt to get one fetch stifled.
If you get two lands stifled and your basic sinkholed, then you lose (yeah, that sometimes happen :smile: ). Now serious, play basics first, delay fetches until you feel so and then try to get basics again.
IT'S ADAN!!!Quote:
Originally Posted by Terminator1k
And well, SPOD is not my Team (you COULD get that impression because I am the guy which looks showered the most of all the SPOD members), but I joined Team SPOD.
And I am still convinced that it was Clemens idea to play RWM as every Frenchmen are playing Rhox War Monk (no shit, all of the French guys at the Ext. PTQ Kruft were playing Bant Aggro without a exception). Just kidding...
About Nimble Mongoose:
I've been a huge fan of them for a long time, but after the Aggro-Loam-mania we had in Hassloch and the random shit I've been facing in Mannheim, I began to agree with Clemens that they are somehow out-dated.
Aggroloam was the only factor we could really calculate with, thus it also warped the metagame in which Nimble Mongoose was crap.
Landstill get beaten by Aggroloam, so the matchup they are useful against is non-existent. Against Aggroloam they are ALWAYS too small in compairison to their creatures.
Thre presence of Aggroloam also made Goblisn vanish. Another matchup where Nimble Mongoose shined.
However, it seemed that Aggroloam gets beaten by Goyf Sligh (as long as Goyf Sligh ran maindeck TSH to deal with Chalice).
After the impact of Goyf Sligh, Aggroloam was pushed back and Goyf SLigh and it's sidekicks such as Tribal Zoo were coming up. And in the earlygame, Geese really can't do much against a 2/2 or 3/3 Nacatl, or a 2/3 Kird Ape, or Goyf etc.
These are some reasons why Nimble Mongoose sucks atm.
That's the problem as the manacost shift makes Daze bad. The Mongoose replacement should cost one or two mana at most but there is nothing that fulfills a similar role. Jotun Grunt is the best I found but has its problems as has been mentioned quite often here. Everything you can play for one mana is too weak and/or targetable.Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzykat
Simply swapping Geese for 3xThree Mana Beater and the 18th land leads to lists that are far to slow to combat Goyfsligh and its companions. Nimble Mongoose is not exceptionally good early in these matchups but can at least chump one turn to prevent some lifeloss until you can cast better stuff. If you then survive the initial onslaught you will have Threshold most of the time because you have to counter and Swords a lot and then Mongoose are good again because they can block everything to death but Goyf.
So another route might be, to leave 3-4 Geese in the deck but treat them as primary sideboard slot for other creatures. Against Goyfsligh for example you then board:
-3/4 Mongoose
-3/4 Daze
(-2 Predict)
+4 Blast
+3 Rhox War Monk
(+2 Jotun Grunt)
Now you still have the cost increase but you also get 4 Blasts to compensate it and you still have Mongoose for the matchups where they shine (MUC/LS/...)
I was thinking that out loud before our faux-match and my opponent told me that he would burn down Confidant to keep me from drawing cards, and he did. Also, Thoughtseize can rip Price of Progress, Fireblast, Goyf, Figure, etc. all of which are worth the damage. Granted losing life to your own cards makes their job easier, the effect can often be powerful enough to win the game. Also, I lost maybe 5 life over 3 games to these cards, and he had more than enough ammo to make up for it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Adan
@Terminator: CB/Top is not a lock and hardly game-deciding against Goyf Sligh. I did mention that they get 4 Grip and 3 Shusher out of the side right? I can't see straight UGW being 65% pre-board and 75% post even with RWM. Maybe 40 pre and 65 post. Goyf Sligh is a good good deck and causes problems for Thresh, at least in my eyes.
:laugh: ok, from now on ADAN!! (thunder and clashes around). Congrats on SPOD, I really like the comments from your team.Quote:
IT'S ADAN!!!
And well, SPOD is not my Team (you COULD get that impression because I am the guy which looks showered the most of all the SPOD members), but I joined Team SPOD.
Well, Goyfslight is a hard deck, no question on that, but as they bring in krosan grip and shusher from the board, you bring in BeB, Threads, or anything else.Quote:
@Terminator: CB/Top is not a lock and hardly game-deciding against Goyf Sligh. I did mention that they get 4 Grip and 3 Shusher out of the side right? I can't see straight UGW being 65% pre-board and 75% post even with RWM. Maybe 40 pre and 65 post. Goyf Sligh is a good good deck and causes problems for Thresh, at least in my eyes.
If they bring such combination (half of their SB, by the way...), they are getting rid of some burn/men. This means slower game, and this is where you want to be against them. Remember you're running EIGHT "destroy everyyou" (Stp, BEB), CB+Top, Threads, Monks, etc...Not talking about your own goyf, wich they can't remove without a waste of resources (wait, RWM also requires TWO of their cards). So, IMO, is not a walk on the park, but I think you're on good position to start to negotiate. :tongue:.
No one is talking about landstill MU, and for me this is what really get's the 30% preboard. I can't see how to play well enought against it...for example, is gaddog teeg good vs them? Sure, you're trumping WOG, FoF, EE, FoW...but then it goes farming and they still play ok. Back to Basis seems ok vs them, but only if they can't see it coming. Would you leave any StP against them? SB for example:
+2 Gaddog Teeg, +3 Krosan Grip, +1 B2B, -3 StP, -3 Daze
Is this good enough? What are the cards you want to get rid of against this MU? Any comment (appart from playing mongoose against them) is appreciated.
So is anybody running Chill again? I have 4 of those sitting in my SB atm.Quote:
Originally Posted by Misplayer
Rawr! I came up with this Rhox shit! Give me my credit!Quote:
Originally Posted by Jak.
/kidding
Mongoose is solid. I don't understand people not liking him. Sure, Tombstalker, Goyf, and Dreadnought (Oh my!) are bigger, but that is why we play removal and counters.
I admit, metas are different so changing them out for utility or bigger creatures does seem nice.
Still, Knight... You might as well run Terravore
Goblins is present where I play, so I prefer BEB-Hydroblast - my reasoning: Chill against an active Vial doesn't do much...Quote:
Originally Posted by Citrus-God
I really like the monk idea. I have been trying to think of a way to get more creatures in. that really helps with burn and aggro. what do you think about making UGw a little more creature heavy like this:
4 Tarmogoyf
4 nimble mongoose
2 mystic enforcer
2 trygon predator
2 rhox war monk
4 FOW
4 Brainstorm
4 ponder
4 STP
3 daze
2 counterbalance
2 SDT
2 enlightened tutor
1 pithing needle
1 powder keg
1 EE
lands 18
4 flooded strand
1 polluted delta
4 tropical island
3 tundra
2 savannah
2 island
1 forest
1 plains
side:
4 chill
4 wheel of sun and moon
4 propaganda
3 krosan grip
I thought it needed to be on the high end of the land curve because of the frequency of 3 mana spells. The upside to that is they are still pitchable to FOW and counterbalance hits 3 more.
KOR indeed is an absolute beast. And not testing him is a giant mistake that a lot of people here seem to be making. Thank you for not making the same mistake.Quote:
Originally Posted by PowrDragn
I personally still run and am a giant fan of the 19-20 manabase that supports 3 Wastelands and 2-3 Basics.
A lot of the recent additions to the deck brought up the deck's curve significantly. Top + CB combo (esp Top), Oblivion Ring, Trygon Predator, Mystic Enforce and the lower cantrip count all need a higher land count than the 17-18 that people have been running. Wasteland lets you play a higher land count, and best of all, serves a function on the rare occasion that you get mana flooded as well.
Most of our threats are high cc. Mystic Enforcer, Trygon Predator and KOR all cost a lot. Top sucks up a ton of mana. So does losing the occasional land to Stifle/Wasteland/Sinkhole. This is why the deck has become so vulnerable to LD.
We can't afford to miss landdrops anymore. The deck is playing fewer cantrips than ever before. Wasteland lets you have the best of both worlds, both ensuring that you never miss a land drop, and should you get mana flooded on occasion, letting you use your lands to slow down your opponents mana development instead.
Also...
It works well with Daze and Divert (and if you opt to play it, Stifle but that's not neccesary).
It gives you tech against factories and mutavaults to delay or neuter standstill.
It slows down all manner of board control decks from The Rock to Landstill to even Quinn. It gives you a way to blow up ancient tombs to mana screw or buy a few extra turns against fairie stompy/dragon stompy/armageddon stax. For decks with a curve so heavily dependent on lands that can tap for two, these decks only play 8 total such lands. I've found that blowing up one can really slow them down some times.
And it even lets you screw your opponent out of a color, esp when combined with KOR.
I honestly can't think of anytime that I've regreted drawing Wasteland since it can so easily alternate functions between manasource and disruption, depending on your and your opponent's mana development.
Here's the CB/Top variant I play (I also alternate it with a version without CB/Top)...
4 Flooded Strand
2 Windswept Heath
2 Polluted Delta
1 Forest
1 Plains
2 Island
2 Tundra
3 Tropical Island
3 Wasteland
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Trygon Predator
2 Mystic Enforcer
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
2 Divert
4 Counterbalance
3 Sensei's Diving Top
Please try out the build before making false assumptions about how it functions.
If you're not yet sold on Divert, you can play Spell Snare instead. But Divert is actually really really solid (even if you don't run Wasteland). Esp now that Mongoose got the boot (from my build atleast).
Note I personally only ever played 3 CB, but I varied the build around a little bit because most people seem to be fans of playing 4.
About KOR vs. RWM, ask your self this...
Would you rather play a 3/4 lifelink or a guy that's usually a 5/5, and can both block and pump himself +2/+2 anytime that he wants all while helping achieve threshold and has a ability (to grab you wasteland after wasteland to blow up factories or colorscrew an opponent) that occasionally wins games by itself to boot?
I also used to run 20 land builds with 3 wasteland. The problem is that without stifle they seem kinda weird. Now with your KOR addition, they make more sense as "waste-you-on-demand" is really nice. If I where playing this guy, I'll go up on mana solely because of him (you sac one land, and then use the other..so your deck is -2 land now...could it be problematic for your game development if there is not enough lands).
I won't test the KOR because I can't acces them at now, but probably will on the future.
Thank you. You can always proxy them up to test them.
That's what I did till my ebay auction winnings finally arrived.
Yeah, I really like Wasteland in the deck. Mystic Enforcer always was one of my favorite beaters. But the 4cc dude never worked perfectly with a land count of 17-18.
Actually, a lot of the recent additions to the deck, Top + CB combo (esp Top), Oblivion Ring, Trygon Predator and the lower cantrip count did not function optimally with such a low land count. Wasteland lets you play a higher land count, and best of all, serves a function on the rare occasion that you get mana flooded as well.
I am especially interested in hearing your and PowrDrgn's comments upon trying out the build I posted above.
Frankly I think both you guys will be very pleased with pretty much all of the changes.
I only ask because you guys seem a lot more willing to actually try new cards rather than jumping to assumptions about them. and generally more openminded to things like dropping Mongoose, playing more powerful higher cc threats, and playing a higher land count to support these threats (that I am convinced are step forward that this deck needs to take).
Captain Hammer, you are a thresh god...
I'm playing your list as I speak (private mws session) and am lovin' it!
Thanks for trying the list. I'm glad you like it. :smile:Quote:
Originally Posted by bowvamp
I think just about anyone would fall in love with the list if they just tested it.
Although divert can do some nice tricks, im am not sure if it can be MD. OF course, if your meta is all burn/sligh and low land aggro/control...
I would probably cut the 2 divert for 2 Oblivion ring to have 2 additional MD answer against problematic permanents.
And yes, KOR is good, especially as a tarmogoyf #5-6 (i am playing only two). I am not sold though on the land trick. Adding wasteland doesnt look like improving much of our MU (Landstill problem was never his Mishra's but its ability to generate huge card advantage and playing a lot of removal). Its just too inefficient without Stifle and/or additional Land removal.