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Lol Sun Droplet doesn't add counters for loss of life. I should know, afaik I was an early adopter. It's rarely ever terrible, as the damage prevented is basically 2 damage / turn. It sticks around the whole game for the most part, and also stacks which is nice. It's really hard to describe, but in the right meta it's an automatic 2-of at the very least.
ugh, sun droplet. i remember seeing the card the moment it came out, fell in love. it was a short, short, almost embarrassing affair.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bowvamp
I'm aware it doesn't interact with Pox directly, but it absorbs damage prior/after Pox then allows you to recoup some life lost. It's a may ability which allows you to ride through Pox, then gain the life back afterwards. It's mediocre against Burn, but it's a unique effect that isn't readily accessible to mono Black.Quote:
Originally Posted by iamfrightenedtoo
the problem with Sun Droplet is not what it does, it is what it does not do.
the life gaining nature of the card is not important. Pox players are never worried about playing pox. If and when they are they switch to control black without Pox.
there are simply more important cards to deal with than Sun droplet. i.e. win conditions.
Pox has a very simple generic formula of core cards that most players play with.
The core only changes every few years.
(first turn discard - whichever the individual player likes, i use Duress), Hymn, Pox, Small pox. the rest of the deck depends on what your going to play.
many players focus on land and hand hate.
i focus on creature hate. (this also changed when the meta game changes.)
I vehemently disagree with using Sink Hole. How much land destruction do you need in a deck? with small pox, pox, and hymn you have 12 spells. those who do not think they need other creature removal because of the same aforementioned cards, should feel the same way with Sink Hole.
Sun Droplet, has no space in any build, because the object is to make them lose life, not make you gain life.
It is like running a damage card in an infect deck, what is the point? or on the same topic, it is like running any infinite damage combo in a pox deck?
with infinite damage you run control so you can have the time you need to find your combo. you do not make it easier for your opponent to kill you by dealing most of the damage to you, yourself.
It's not that WotC hates black mages, they just develope all our cards straight up high as hell.
http://magiccards.info/fut/en/92.html
Are there more enchantments that have tap to activate effects? Wtf..
I was bored, and was fiddling around with a Pernicious Pox build. It's based off of BUGstill. Check it out:
Lands
4x Bayou
6x fetchlands
1x filterland
1x painland
3x Swamp
1x Forest
2x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3x Mishra's Factory
4x Wasteland
Planeswalkers (PW)
3x Liliana of the Veil
4x Garruk3, something something..
2x Sorin Markov
Removal
4x Pernicious Deed
4x Innocent Blood
2x Dismember
3x Maelstrom Pulse
Disruption
3x Thoughtseize
3x Inquisition of Kozelik
4x Hymn to Tourach
1x Smallpox
Draw
2x Life from the Loam
As I was working on it though, I began to move away from BigPox and then from SmallPox and the PW's just stabilized the board way better than the Pox spells. The removal suite is crazy though and the disruption all round is very promising. Garruk3 is pretty destructive since the 2/2 Wolves become a pretty fast clock. Early game will be mostly defensive with Innocent Bloods and Hymn to Tourachs or Thoughtseize/INquisition of Kozelik. Turn 3, Liliana of the Veil comes down and the disruption intensifies. She draws countermagic as well for Garruk3 to come down midgame to seal the deal. Life from the Loam makes Liliana/smallpox asymmetrical and also acts as card advantage. If the game happens to get to late-game (probably vs another control deck), Sorin Markov comes down to finish it. He's just the biggest bomb.
As I played this deck more and more, I realized that there is no situation where I want to cast BigPox. I realized that Pox is really win-more as I never want to cast it when I'm winning and never want to cast it when I'm losing. It doesn't save me on a losing board and it doesn't necessary save me when they still have 1 land. Sensei's Top on my oppponent's side really didn't help me. In the end, I decided on 1x Smallpox as it is both creature removal and hand disruption. Smallpox is just more controllable for this type of deck.
Maybe I'm posting this in the wrong thread, but it really started out as a Pox deck. Who knows....
jin, pox is most definitely not win-more. Also, saying it's not good when you're winning or losing just says "pox is bad" not that it's win more. Pox is very powerful because of the card advantage it can get you very easily. It "relatively heals" you, kills their threats, and gets you card advantage. Also, your list sounds a lot closer to theory crafting than something you've tested. For instance, how do you handle the large influx of combo that is expected? BigPox actually just wrecks ANT, and you've only got 14 cards to prevent them from going off turn 2 or 3. Compare that to 4 Smallpox, 4 Pox, 4 Hymn, 4 turn 1 discard, potentially 4 Sinkhole, x wasteland, etc. You'll see that your deck does significantly worse vs. oldschool storm combo lists.
You're like a watch dog parking off intruders to the Pox thread. I have seen no relevant contribution by you except negative criticism and your condescending tone is not welcome. I have tested this list against several decks the whole day yesterday against players that are competant with aggro/control/storm combo and I can tell you that this deck is strong against all 3 archtypes in the current metagame.Quote:
Originally Posted by bowvamp
I myself play The Epic Storm and this Pox deck is just a hobby deck and I can tell you that nothing wrecks Storm combo more than Hymn to Tourach. Duress/Thoughtseize that is all secondary. Let me let you in on a secret. The reason why Hymn is better vs storm combo is because it is idiot proof. It is random and it is impossible for you to "choose" the wrong card. Sinkhole is like a joke to storm combo. And BigPox hurts the Pox player way more than it hurts the storm combo player simply because BigPox doesn't even touch the artifact mana...
Post board, I bring in more disrupt so that I can get my Hymn to Tourach to go off.
Now after defending myself against this fruitless argument, I'm going to tell you how Pernicious Pox beats storm combo: Thoughtseize disruption to get to Hymn to Tourach and then Liliana of the Veil to pressure combo players into winning or getting their entire hand stripped.
How does this deck beat aggro: 6 effecient and effective spot removal (innocent blood/dismmeber), 3 heavy swiss army knives (pulse), 4 board sweepers and a flexible removal spell (small pox)
How this deck beats contro: superior PW with sufficient hand disruption negate any advantage of countermagic.
The only deck I see this deck losing to right now is itself (and maybe charbelcher if I'm on the draw since Im not packing FOW). BigPox isn't Card Advantage at all. Most of the time (since I have wasteelands, hymns and creature removal), BigPox simply kills of one of everything of theirs and one of everything of mine. It's totally symmetrical. I would rather you use it as direct damage like iamfrightenedtoo, but seriously, I'm usually at a highe rlife. So I eat it more than anything.
BigPox is WINMORE because you never want to cast it in my deck. My deck is always in control.. if I'm not in control, BigPox isn't going to help me. Try it.
This isn't Pox. Your win condition is contingent upon 5 and 6cc planeswalkers? Pernicious Deed? These are far far too slow, and painfully inadequate to deal with Storm Combo.Quote:
Originally Posted by jin
You are right that Pox can't deal with artifact mana. However, Ratchet Bomb and Powder Keg do so quickly, and effectively. There is no reason to dip into :g: for PDeed when there are enough tools in artifacts that deal with the exact same problems.
Moreover, you're playing high CC planeswalker in lieu of the 4th Liliana which is deck misconstruction.
I agree that Sinkhole is not right for every metagame, but it's definitely better than some of the cards you have in your list. Smallpox is better than Dismember for instance, and the former should be maximized.
I've played Pox(the deck) for a long time now and must say that I wasnt too happy with Pox(the card),
because it wasn't reliable enough so I cut it from my list, that's why I agree with Jin.
Pox was only good enough to punish bad opponents for keeping 1-land hands which nobody should do(in most cases at least) and only resulted in card advantage in few cases.
However, more often it didn't help me when I was behind, e.g. when my opponent had 2 or more creatures, because it would only reduce my life further and make the opponent's clock faster.
Furthermore, there was often the case that i couldn't produce triple black due to Mishra's Factory and Wasteland, so it only made my deck more inconsistent.
Liliana easily replaces Pox as it does what Pox did, only better. It can easily be dropped off Dark Ritual T1 in contrast to Pox and i won about 90 % of the games with T1 Liliana. The whole deck must be dedicated to Liliana because she is really THAT good. I've even won with a mull to 4 once due to T1 Liliana. Every Pox-list has to start with 4 Dark Ritual and 4 Liliana.
Please try the deck.Quote:
Originally Posted by rukcus
Have you played Storm Combo before? Discard stops storm combo. I've already defended this, so i'm not going to again.. read my post carefully.
Also, yes, I know it's not very Pox like to begin with, but Tempo Thresh no longer runs threshold creatures, but it is still based on the same strategy. This is a Pox deck that is based off of the original Pox strategy - Absolute board control via permanent and hand disruption.
I realize that Ratchet Bomb/Powder Keg solves artifact mana, but these cards are terrible if you want to just blow up lands. Pernicious Deeds takes out threats and also takes out artifact mana as collateral, which is far better. Ratchet Bomb/Powder Keg are painfully slow and by the time you find them, your oppoent might have already drawn into lands. Haven't you ever had a situation where you pox them out but they have artifact mana, and all you can do is wish you can draw your stupid Ratchet Bomb/Powder Keg. I have. This deck doesn't dig well.
I don't unerstand what deck misconstruction is. Could you please elaborate. I would hardly call 4cmc high casting cost. Garruk3 is a beast. Try him, he's freaking strong.
You'll get to 6 mana easily. I only run 1x SmallPox. SmallPox has a different application than Dismember and can not be directly compared with it. Dismember is spot removal. SmallPox isn't.
Please help me fix the deck if you feel like you can find better cards for this list, because I feel that this list is optimal. What cards would you suggest that I replace and whcih cards should I replace them with. Please elaborate on your reasoning behind SmallPox > Dismember. Dismember is instantspeed spot removal which is relevant in many match ups. SmallPox is and edict effect with some bonuses. Against a swarm, or even a trio, it can't kill what you want it to kill.
Liliana of the Veil does feel like she replaces pox. She ultimates so often when unanswered and that alone is like a Pox effect (minus iamfrightened's direct damage purposes).Quote:
Originally Posted by Smea.gol.lum
I can't say I agree with Dark Ritual though, since I feel that Dark Ritual is a big hit to our hand. I think card disadvantage is the thing we want the least since all Pox effects (BigPox, SmallPox) are both card disadvantage inherently. I try to avoid card disadvantage at all costs. That's why i would sacrifice speed for it. Well, in my eyes, this pox deck is a control deck, so I expect to push it to late game....
@jin -- your list is reminiscent of trisomy 21 (which is an amazing control deck to play). But without playtesting I would say that Sorin needs the boot. I'd suggest two more smallpox or even mox diamond to take you into Garruk faster and to increase the probability of a turn one Hymn.
I can only recommend you to try Dark Ritual out and you 'll probably see that the card disatvantage due to it is worth the speed it adds to the deck, especially after the Misstep-banning resulting in a faster environment.
Smallpox and BigPox aren't card disatvantage if you play them correctly, they are card parity in most cases.
Pox is a disadvantage for your opponent, not you. also, Liliana is not going to be as good as everyone thinks in a real tournament environment, The best part is, if i am wrong and it is an auto win dominance your all claiming from your play testing, then it is a black card that plays well in black and WOFC will ban it almost immediately.
@iamfrightenedtoo:
Yes, Pox does put your opponent at a disadvantage when you play it correctly.
"Liliana is not going to be as good as everyone thinks in a real tournament environment, The best part is, if i am wrong and it is an auto win dominance your all claiming from your play testing, then it is a black card that plays well in black and WOFC will ban it almost immediately."
^ Care to elaborate? I don't think it's auto-win, I just think it is good enough to justify dark ritual.
@jin:
If you want help with your list (which is no longer pox in my eyes, but a non-thematic BG-control rock type of deck) I suggest you ask in the Rock thread. It seems a little more relevant now.
The reasons why dismember > smallpox in some scenarios are obvious. In others, smallpox > dismember. All I know is that if you're casting them for 2 mana, smallpox does less damage to you (and pings the opponent). Dismember @ 1 cc does too much damage to be useful when you've already got sac effects/board control. Also, if you're concerned about utility creatures or mermen early game, consider Disfigure
I've seen that deck around but never looked into it, I"ll check it out, thanks. Yeah, I actually cut BigPox for Sorin because in matchups versus control decks, Garruk's 2/2's and 1/1's and Liliana's Ulitmate just didn't cut it. I was playing versus a Thopter Foundry deck and he was at pretty low life, but between Pithing Needle on Pernicious Deed, empty hand and Ensnaring Bridge, I was really having trouble getting 9 damage through. This is why I decided to play Sorin.Quote:
Originally Posted by Oiolosse
I guess it is quite situational. Maybe I'll move him to the sideboard. If I cut him, I'd probably play more SmallPox...
Hardly.. Pox effects will rarely be card parity. You are forgetting you have to cast the card yourself, so you automatically lose that card. You also have to discard accordingly. It is card parity at best....Quote:
Originally Posted by Smea.gol.lum
How does your deck utiliaze Pox to the fullest because in most situations I guarentee that the advantage you gain is minuscule and most of you probably can't capitalize on it. Other than those aggro pox with Blood Ghasts lists, I cannot really see where you are coming from with this. Those lists aren't that strong either as creatures are quite easily removed now a days.Quote:
Originally Posted by iamfrightenedtoo
Pox is only advantageous because you know it is coming. That means you can't drop lands and you have to play spells that aren't affected by Pox. These spells are typically weaker or slower than their creature/land varient. ie. phyrexian negator, phyrexian totem or chrome mox, swamp, etc.
It doesn't dominate, it works well.
I agree with you on Liliana, she isn't auto win at all. She is good though.Quote:
Originally Posted by bowvamp
I don't think Rock would agree with this list as well since Rock is an aggro-control deck that uses fast beats. Most lists only run 1x Pernicious Deed and don't try to wipe the board too often since it is anti-synergetic with their own creatures. I don't understand this:
The purpose of Dismember isn't to deal damage to your oppoent or to save your own life from damage, it is to remove problematic creatures that would otherwise be unremovalable by Smallpox, ie. Goyf with friends or Grim Lavamancers with friends... or Wild Nacatl's with friends.Quote:
Originally Posted by bowvamp
If you want an edict effect, Liliana of the Veil has that. I also have 4 Innocent Blood in my list, so I have enough edict effects that I can afford some spot removal...
Thanks for your constructive input.
@bowvamp
i really cannot elaborate, i just dont think Liliana is going to be that effective. i think the card has a place in pox, or in all forms of control, but asking an opponent to discard a card of their choice, during my turn doesnt excite me.
i do like the edict effect, but not every other turn, or even every three turns. ill tell everyone now, if i would pay to get the card, or a few copies (not four) it definitely re-enforces ensnaring bridge.
you are right, she does offer more opportunities for dark ritual, but i have never had a problem with running dark ritual anyway. i get an almost nervousness about me with anticipation when a Duress, hymn, and dark ritual finds it way into my opening hand. (swamp included of course)
(I also have probably case a first turn pox with dark ritual more than any of you have cast pox) Poker players always have an opening hand that they simply cannot throw away, and sometimes the hand is not even a good one.
Swamp, Dark ritual, Pox, is something i love to to announce on my opening turn. it is comparable to a drug. admittedly it rarely works out, but i have also only entered a tournament with a Pox deck with an intention of winning, maybe a dozen times in a decade.
mono black pox is hard to play, it is hard to win with.
Greg Russell's B/G Pox s a decent build, offers everything that pox doesnt offer, and it adds pox.
as a pox player, my mind tells me to switch to a version of it. i used to play G/B pox way back when Deed first came out, i enjoyed it, but it did not feel right (deep inside me)
one thing you should understand about me, is i love mono black pox. just as my comment about casting a first turn pox more often than most players cast pox. I have entered a tournament with a bad Pox build just to try something out in the deck, knowing i had no chance of really winning, than most people have entered tournaments. (Obviously this is an egregious exaggeration)
mono black pox is a pure deck, there is nothing fancy, and you have to MTG balls to play it. the deck can beat you just as easy (if not easier) than it can beat your opponent. the win conditions are varied and none are very good.
someone said earlier that they only run one small pox. that is like kissing your sister. why?
what is the point of just one? and dont get me wrong, i do not run any.
1/3 of my opponents life is worth 1/3 of my hand lands and life. (i do not really use creatures so i rarely have to worry about that.) i also do not care about my opponent sacrificing creatures, or even lands. i care about the two cards on average they have to dump and the life they have to sacrifice. back to small pox, one of my opponents creatures, lands, and hands, is not worth me doing the same. I wish it made each player sac two of everything. that would be fair, and rightfully so, it could still cost two black. Small Pox should only cost one black. if it were blue, you the caster would have to sacrifice nothing. (i also vehemently hate blue, and all blue players passionately)
as for Liliana, Wizzards of the coast can call me when they make a card for one black mana, that makes me choose, each player sacs 1/3 of their life, hand, creatures, or lands. is that not fair? over powered, and would change the face of Magic the Gathering. and more importantly why not? they gave control color a blue permanent, that is difficult to kill without placing cards in your deck just for them, that only cost four mana, and wins the game within four turns.
JAce the Mind Sculptor is like a one card combo. In the last 5 years blue has gotten Counter balance, Jace, mental misstep (banned suck it) Vendilion Clique. tell me there is no bias for blue.
@ jin
i run ensnaring bridge.
the bloodghast aggro decks i was just trying something new, i abandoned it after two weeks.
ensnaring bridge is very powerful in this current meta game, actually it has worked well for me in every meta game since it came out.
which is also why i am fearless in casting Pox. i know my opponent is going to have a difficult time in attacking me. (against red deck wins and all other forms of direct damage) i basically auto lose, but if you go into a match against those decks and expect anything else but a loss, you are asleep at the wheel.
with pox i have noticed lately i rarely side board. the deck wither works or it doesnt. i have also became interested in the Necrotic Oooze combo in the last month or two, i may just put the Ooze combo in the sideboard, and make the sideboard transformative(SP im tired and dont feel like finding the correct spelling for this.)
this is just a thought i have been kicking around, i have not tried it, not even sure i will. but i like the idea of having an answer to RDW, and Zoo.
This is terrible. Assuming they played turn 1 land, Nacatl (best play for turn 1 Pox), you still lose your land.. and have to discard 2 cards going down to 3 cards on turn one with nothing on the board. Your oppoent also loses 2 cards and goes down to 3 cards. At best (this is best), you have symmetry and not advantageQuote:
Originally Posted by iamfrightenedtoo
Black has gotten Thoughtseize, Ad Nauseam, Infernal Tutor, Tombstalker, Blood Ghast, Entomb (again).. don't be bias.Quote:
Originally Posted by iamfrightenedtoo
Well the BloodGhast plan has been discussed for a long time now. Bridge is ok... It's not a bad idea.Quote:
Originally Posted by iamfrightenedtoo
I don't like auto losing.
Interesting how just a few posts ago, you called my idea illogical,
but now you are thinking about putting it in your deck (or have been thinking about it for a month or two)..
I'm glad you turned around..
Quote:
Originally Posted by iamfrightenedtoo
@jin
about the Ooze combo,
it was my understanding (please forgive me if i am wrong) that you were going to put the Ooze combo in the main deck. that does not make sense. I was planning on putting 15 cards of the combo in my sideboard. I want to do this so i can swap out Pox stuff and add in Ooze cards. they both require different sideboard cards from your opponent so anything they might sideboard, i could hopefully nullify.
and about my love for a first turn Pox, i know it is bad. I still love doing it. It is the same thing as people who drink and drive, they know the consequence is terrible but they still do it.
(yes i did just compare playing a first turn Pox to drinking and driving. i was Hit by a drunk driver 16 years ago, and i often play Pox on turn one, i feel i am qualified to make such comparisons.)
about my bias towards blue, i thought i made it clear my bias against blue. and my passionate hatred for people who play the disgusting color.
but for the sake of getting in a argument i will most likely lose, ill volley.
Counter balance, Jace, mental misstep (banned suck it) Vendilion Clique
Thoughtseize, Ad Nauseam, Infernal Tutor, Tombstalker, Blood Ghast, Entomb
ill give you maybe Entomb, that is it. Bloodghast can be exiled, and killed easily every turn, it cannot block and is only a 2/1
tombstalker, again, is a creature with no second ability. (when i say second ability, i mean like Clique, can send a card from your hand to the bottom of your library, oh it also flies and has flash. the only downfall of it, is the player the spell is used on can draw a card.)
infernal tutor is good for combo decks. but you cant run it in mono black, Ad Nauseam, again a single deck card. do you run Ad Nauseam in mono black, dredge, any deck involving Dark Confidant. i would have given you Dark Confidant, even if it was out of the last 5 years.
Thoughtsieze, is good, ill give you thoughsieze but even if, is thoughtsieze better than JAce the mind sculptor, counter blanance, or clique?
and now back to entomb, another card that is deck specific.
Jace, and clique can go in all blue decks. thoughtsieze can go in all black decks, thats it.