Printable View
@ 0dysseus:
Keg doesnt blow up enchantments, so it may set back their token creatures a turn, but then they will just kill you other ways. Enchantress is a terrible match up for stompy anyways, and not widely played either.
Generally like you said, moon effects and chalices are good against ichorid. But if they get ahead of you, wiping the board of tokens with a 2cc artifact isnt bad. Pyroclasm is amazing against ichorid also, and trinisphere can slow them to a crawl.
I don't know if this happens everywhere, but in my meta the prevalence of counter-top, wasteland-stifle and similar things has made people increase their curves, their land count and the number of basics among them, making DS worse, because a turn one trinisphere/moon followed by a song into slogger/riders usually ends in their playing their third/basic land, removing our threats and start recovering while we are just in topdeck mode.
As the problem is the more stable manabases the solution we found is to mess with them in a more direct way: a land destruction plan. A turn one trinisphere/moon backed with a couple of LD spells is usually gg.
We are tinkering with this list:
LD Dragon Stompy:
-Canonical DS mana/accel base:
4 City of traitors
4 Ancient tomb
10 Mountains
4 Chrome mox
4 Simian spirit guide
-Disruption:
4 Magus of the moon
3 Blood moon
4 Trinispheres
3 Chalice of the void
-LD Suite
4 Stone rain
4 Avalanche riders
2 Ogre arsonist
-Beaters:
4 Rakdos pit dragon
-Equipment
2 Swords of light and shadow
2 Umezawa's jitte
-Other
2 Vexing shusher
Card choices:
-Canonical mana base: not much to explain here
-Disruption: Trinispheres and moon effects get better when you attack their lands, so a full set of the first and the seventh blood moon are in. As chalice is getting worse because of the tendence to spraed casting costs so we removed one.
-LD Suite: Stone rain was previously Pillage, but th casting cost of 2R is the best for this deck as we want to cast it without waiting to be able to produce RR. For just one (colorless) more the riders act as stone rains 5-8 in the first turns with a single attack/block attached, later they can get an equipment an join the beatdown. Arsonist are an open slot, but for now they are seconds to riders in doing their job.
-Beaters: if we want to let in the LD spells something as to go, in this case the explosive creatures of traditional builds. The slogger-song duo was the first to be cut due to its inconsistence. By testing we realice that this build doesn't want to be explosive but disruptive so the gathan riders where often sided out and finally dismissed. The dragon keeps being the best beater avaliable, with hellbent and whatnot.
-Equipment: as our threats are smaller running equipment is necesary to make them decent beaters. Jitte is just the best at his work as it triples as lifegain, removal and a clock. We choose SoLaS over other options because of the abundance of white/black removal and creatures around. The lifegain is never bad in a deck with tombs and while half of the time the raise dead ability is plain useless or just meh, in long matches recurring our (limited number of) threats is game-breaking and when paired with an avalanche riders is just insane.
-Other: another flexive slot, we hate countermagic, but different cards could be tested in its place.
A sample sideboard (pretty self-explanatory):
1 Chalice of the void
1 Blood moon
1 Vexing shusher
4 Relic of progenitus/Thormod's cypt
4 Shattering spree/Rack and ruin
4 Volcanic fallout/Pyroclasm/Cave-in/Pyrokinesis
Problems found with the build: as it is slower, the mirror and other stompy decks will outrun us. A resolved aether vial is almost a lost game as we cannot race it.
I recommend giving this build a try because in paper LD seems quite random, but when test it you realize that the difference between beaters and destroying lands is the diference between hoping to end the game before the opponent finds an answer and simple not caring if he finds one because he won't be able to cast it.
Comments and suggestions are apreciated.
/looks up ogre arsonist.... There has got to be better LD options...
Possible options... Fulminator Mage to compliment the Sword... Goblin Settler if you dont need the effective beat down... Ravenous Babboons... for non-basic hate with an ok body...
While I like the way the deck is going it seems like the arsonist might be a little slow... After all you wana keep them off balance as opposed to keep them slow... Or at least I think that is the general concept of Ponza in this sort of a meta game... After all C-Balance only needs UU to be played.
Powder Keg can destroy Argothian Enchantress, that's why I mentioned it is useful:) But aside that, we don't destroy enchantments, and that is the core of that deck.Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe_C
As for Ichorid, I've played only a few times against it, but a Chalice at 1 and a Moon is Fatality..not to mention Trinisphere. So that's why I said Keg was overkill there.
I really like your Shusher idea (you must have understood that:). I'll also try Grafted Wargear when I can. Someone nicked "la loutre" had posted that option many pages ago.
As for the suggested Land Destro build,I really would like Stone Rains, Avalanche Riders and Trini main, but if you remove Seething Song and good ol' Slogger, will you deal easily with weenie decks that are often monocolored? With Keg maybe? Ogre Arsonist seems too thin n' too expensive. Why don't you remove a Blood Moon, a Jitte, the two Ogre Arsonists and a SOLaS to add some Grafted Wargear, since you disrupt them from disenchanting too? Also without Song your Dragons are weaker. Removing that mana boost, are you sure that taking out Raiders is good? Maybe you should play 2-3, that will come when you're done disrupting and are ready to end the game emptyhanded. I don't know..you could even play Raze with 3-4 Shushers, 2-3 Chalices and 1-2 Mountains more and even add a Seismic Mage, Duergar Hedge-Magi, Dwarven (Blast)miners or Dwarven Drillers. But those seem more like a fun deck. Keep trying and improvising though!
Anyway, I'm off for some souvlaki. I'm eager to try these new ideas of yours Mr.Leif:)
@nodanero
As for the settler the diference in body is worth the aditional mana, and for baboons and fulminators is that we already have nonbasic hate in the form of moon effects, so we search to compliment it with land destruction than can hit basics, although the fulminator interaction with swords might be something worth a try, as we stated the arsonist is something we want to change, thanks for the idea.
What is the problem with counterbalance? The usual starting plan fo DS breaks it as chalice@1 stops top, moon effetcs make harder to get the doubke U (as most decks with counter-top rely in duals), and trinisphere+LD keeps them away from playing it. And in case they get it active dragons, av. riders and arsonits are likely to dodge it and shusher just laught at it. The problem when we refer a countertop meta isn't the countertop itself, but the rest of decks adapting to countertop (for example bant, which as more lands and higher casting costs replacing threshold).
@ Oddysseus
At the moment we like more the versatility of SoLaS and Jitte better than the raw power of grafted wargear, and the problem with the driller tribe is that the summoning sickness often make them a turn too slow. The keg is an interesting adition, and maybe correcting the number of dragons and gathans. As you just say, we will keep trying and improvising.
I really like the Grafted Wargear idea, possibly even in the main deck. The possibility of a two-for-one with a Krosan Grip or something might be an issue, but the advantage of making Magus and SSG actual threats may be worth it.
Another comment I have to make on some of the deck lists I've seen recently is that Trinisphere should be a 4 of maindeck. The way it messes with Thresh's cantrip engine, goblins cheap costs, and especially storm combo seems too good against the general field to not use to its full extent.
Coal Stoker seems like an interesting beater that I have not yet had the chance to test. It seems kind of gimmicky though, such as a top deck. The mana should add to the consistancy, I agree, but something just seems too "cool" (as in beware of "cool" things). Again, I don't know, I haven't had the chance to test it; this is just my gut feeling on the card. Can those who have tested it reply on this?
It's unfortunate that there aren't any good red Evoke creatures that we can bring back with SoLS.
I think Faultgrinder is on the cusp, especially with the LD plan, but man he's just so expensive.
Spitebellows would be interesting too, but that double red in the evoke cost makes it more difficult to cast.
I'm running Wargear as a 3-of in the sideboard right now. My logic is as follows:Quote:
Originally Posted by Brad Herbig
1. It's not better than Blood Moon maindeck against a random deck.
2. It's not better than Trinisphere maindeck against a random deck.
3. There's nothing else I'd even remotely consider cutting for it.
4. It's significantly better than either Blood Moon or Trinisphere against a lot of decks.
5. It's often better than Trinisphere when you're going second.
I'm running 3 main/1 board. I want to run only 2, but it's so good right now I like the third one.Quote:
Another comment I have to make on some of the deck lists I've seen recently is that Trinisphere should be a 4 of maindeck. The way it messes with Thresh's cantrip engine, goblins cheap costs, and especially storm combo seems too good against the general field to not use to its full extent.
The reason I don't like to run four is simple. I have absolutely no use for two of them. Duplicate Chalices win games. Duplicate Moons at least sit on Moxes.
Duplicate Trinispheres suck.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying Coal Stoker is the missing link of the deck. I'm just arguing that it very well might be better than Taurean Mauler right now.Quote:
Coal Stoker seems like an interesting beater that I have not yet had the chance to test. It seems kind of gimmicky though, such as a top deck. The mana should add to the consistancy, I agree, but something just seems too "cool" (as in beware of "cool" things). Again, I don't know, I haven't had the chance to test it; this is just my gut feeling on the card. Can those who have tested it reply on this?
The reason I don't like Taurean Mauler is that Dragon Stompy's whole strategy is counterintuitive to what makes Mauler good. Dragon Stompy has no draw, so it relies on getting its card advantage by playing single cards that shut off ridiculously huge portions of the opponent's deck from being useful. We run anywhere from 12-16 cards (Moons, Chalice, Trinisphere) that have no other purpose than to keep the opponent from being able to even play spells. That said, Mauler may still be the best option. Nothing else listed on the last page even sounds remotely useful.
Coal Stoker makes the deck both faster and more consistent. He allows Pit Dragon plays off Tomb/City/Mox or Tomb/City/Mountain. He chains into ridiculously explosive openings. He pumps Dragons. He powers out Chalices and Trinispheres. He's just fantastic. The downside is that he's just a 3/3 in a format where 3/3 doesn't make the cut very often. He's useless against Tarmogoyfs. He won't stop Lackeys like Mauler will. And when you get right down to it, he's just a Hill Giant with a superb mana bonus.
We tested Coal Stoker back when this deck was being developed as Empty the Slogger, since he helped those turn 1 EtWs and could also help drop equipment faster. Eventually, we cut him because he just didn't do anything, along with cutting EtW for Pit Dragon.
Fixed. But anyway. My argument for Coal Stoker's that he only has to edge out Taurean Mauler. I think he might. Here's my logic for guessing so.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zork
Dragon Stompy usually loses when one of the following happens:
1. We mulligan ourselves into oblivion.
2. Our game-breaking disruption cards are ineffective, either by being removed, countered, knocked out of our hand, not drawing them, or being weak against a particular deck.
3. We can't get/keep a threat big enough to somehow win the game by itself.
4. We get a slow start and can't ever get the tempo under control.
5. A deck has a strategy we can't deal with, and they pull it off.
My followups to this are as follows.
1. Coal Stoker might cause the deck to Mulligan less. Despite the acceleration, there aren't a lot of situations where I'm sure this is true. But it does a little bit of color fixing.
2. Pretty neutral. Coal Stoker doesn't actually help these cards come down before countermagic or mana for removal can hit play. But it does come down in the same turn as these cards pretty often at least.
3. Mauler's better here. Turn one Mauler means they have a big threat to deal with, and that's one removal spell they aren't spending on Dragon/Slogger.
4. Coal Stoker's way better here. Coal Stoker seizes Tempo like a madman. And Mauler is awful when trying to get speed back under control. Except against Goblins.
5. Stoker makes the deck explode faster against Enchantress. Mauler jumps in front of Goblin Lackey and goes ha-ha. Stoker's probably better at what it does here, but Goblins is way more prevalent than Enchantress.
So Stoker, to me, will continue to get tested until it manages to piss me off worse than Taurean Mauler.
Its funny you should try to correct me on the development of this deck, when the list that became famous was based on EtS and added Pit Dragon from Dragon Stompy in place of Warrens. At that point in time, DS was not running SSG, Gathan Raiders, or Arc-Slogger, and was actually running Razormane Masticore and Earthquake MD. But arguing deck origins is pointless.
As for Coal Stoker, I really liked him in explosive starts, but I think that Mauler still gets the edge in general, and I will respond to your points.
1. Coal Stoker might cause the deck to mulligan less, but I didn't find it to be signifigant. On the other hand, Mauler is much better off of a mulligan because he is easier to cast. I can't count the number of tournament matches that Grey Ogre would have won me just because he costs 3 and not 4.
4. Coal Stoker is much better at tempo, though moreso against aggro than control/aggrocontrol. That is because Stoker can be used to drop an extra threat/equip in the face of aggro, but Mauler functions as disruption himself (albeit not our strongest).
In this light, I feel mauler is stronger, but I would still replace him in a heartbeat if something that was solidly disruptive got printed.
So your argument is that Deck A can add cards from Deck B, but Deck B can't add cards from Deck A. Fascinating. This isn't the place for it, though.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zork
I actually agree with your points. And yes, Mauler off a mull to 5 is much better than Stoker. And I definitely agree that Coal Stoker isn't the fix to the 6th creature slot any more than Mauler is. It's just the battle of what tides us over until they print the missing link. I'm still not sure I agree with the conclusion you get off the points, but I'm not sure I disagree with them either.Quote:
As for Coal Stoker, I really liked him in explosive starts, but I think that Mauler still gets the edge in general, and I will respond to your points.
1. Coal Stoker might cause the deck to mulligan less, but I didn't find it to be signifigant. On the other hand, Mauler is much better off of a mulligan because he is easier to cast. I can't count the number of tournament matches that Grey Ogre would have won me just because he costs 3 and not 4.
4. Coal Stoker is much better at tempo, though moreso against aggro than control/aggrocontrol. That is because Stoker can be used to drop an extra threat/equip in the face of aggro, but Mauler functions as disruption himself (albeit not our strongest).
In this light, I feel mauler is stronger, but I would still replace him in a heartbeat if something that was solidly disruptive got printed.
Has Masticore been tested?
I think it's been discussed in the thread, and the problem is that it has poor synergy with hellbent. In theory, Masticore will get you there faster, but he won't survive.Quote:
Originally Posted by zulander
Masticore and his better cousin, Razormane, were run in the way early types of this deck in place of Arc-Slogger. (And yes, Razormane's the better one if you have to tap Ancient Tombs to fuel Masticore) The subsequent printing of Gathan Raiders and improved mana acceleration in Simian Spirit Guide ended the Masticore era. Hellbent >> Masticore, and Slogger's just insane.
So yeah. Masticore's time has passed. I've never been a fan of regular Masticore, and he just doesn't play well with this deck.
Something I've noticed is that most of you guys, whatever changes you try, you leave a full set of 4 Blood Moons and Trinispheres between main and sb. Is that so crucial? I think could play with 3 and 3 and leave even more space.
Also, when testing Coal Stokers, is it a bad idea in your opinion to play with less than 4, because we want to have the mana boost preferably soon?
1. I agree, because most decks in Legacy are crippled by Moons.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tacosnape
2. But lategame it could be better..
3. I could put a Grafted Wargear on the second Jitte's position maindeck. With no Trins main and 3 of them sb.
4. Agreed.
5. Here's something else I want to say about this, and correct me if I'm wrong. When we face Trygon Predator and Vindicate aren't they maindecked most of the time? Let's leave those aside. 6-8 Moons will deal with them after all. But if Krosan Grip comes more often from the sb (game 2) we give the opponent more targets if we play Wargear also on game 2. So on the contrary, if we had it main, and put it to the sb game 2 -predicting Grips will hit- we'll trick the opponent a little, and save our assets from double-kills.
And lastly, if 1-of slots in this deck are being considered, and some of you play with 3 Trinis main, or more dangerously to add to the aggression with Wargear, or even with 1 more land, consider again playing 1-2 Covetous Dragons main or sb, like Olivier Ruel who had had 2 Rorix Bladewings in his sideboard. If destroyed, Wargear kills us a creature. Covetous is fat, and if played as 1, on those lategame-wannasee-card slots, then the opponent would have to destroy a shield of 2-3 artifacts at least to take Covetous down. This could work somehow in a build with 1 more Mountain, or 1 less Arc-Slogger. Speaking of what is more dangerous, we can always choose not to equip Wargear of course. But Covetous Dragon could be an option in this specific case and in the right amount.
You absolutely can. I'm actually doing the same thing right now. I'm not entirely convinced there's two better things to spend sideboard slots on, but the deck functions off a 3/3 configuration.Quote:
Originally Posted by 0dysseus
I don't think it's necessary to play with 4 of anything ever unless you actually would want to run more than four of them in a perfect world. Coal Stoker's still the weakest threat slot, so if you're running less than 24 threats, absolutely, run less. You could probably run two Stokers and two Maulers if you wanted. Hell, you could run 1 Stoker, 1 Mauler, 1 Akroma, and 1 Sulfur Elemental, and chances are in the long run it's really not going to make a huge difference. You're still going to win most your games off the backs of your other guys.Quote:
Also, when testing Coal Stokers, is it a bad idea in your opinion to play with less than 4, because we want to have the mana boost preferably soon?
3. Yes, you could easily maindeck it if you aren't going to maindeck Trinisphere.Quote:
1. I agree, because most decks in Legacy are crippled by Moons.
2. But lategame it could be better..
3. I could put a Grafted Wargear on the second Jitte's position maindeck. With no Trins main and 3 of them sb.
4. Agreed.
5. Here's something else I want to say about this, and correct me if I'm wrong. When we face Trygon Predator and Vindicate aren't they maindecked most of the time? Let's leave those aside. 6-8 Moons will deal with them after all. But if Krosan Grip comes more often from the sb (game 2) we give the opponent more targets if we play Wargear also on game 2. So on the contrary, if we had it main, and put it to the sb game 2 -predicting Grips will hit- we'll trick the opponent a little, and save our assets from double-kills.
5. Or you can just not board in Grafted Wargear against decks packing Krosan Grip. Near Mono-Green in the format is limited to Green Chalice Aggro, to which I say wtfever as you'll find it once in a blue never, and elves, to which you'll be leaving in Chalice and Trinisphere and bringing in Pyroclasm for Blood Moon. Decks splashing green will mean you'll almost always want to keep Blood Moon in, and since a ton of them pack blue, Trinisphere'll stick around also. All that said, I see your point, and Wargear main might be neat to try, as decks packing maindeck Vindicate, at the risk of over-generalization, we either beat with Blood Moon or lose to.
It's worth noting that there's no benefit to running dragons in Dragon Stompy other than the fact that some of them are big and evasive. But Covetous and Rorix are both inconsistent. And if you're afraid of losing 2 for 1's with Wargear, you should be equally afraid of it with Covetous Dragon.Quote:
And lastly, if 1-of slots in this deck are being considered, and some of you play with 3 Trinis main, or more dangerously to add to the aggression with Wargear, or even with 1 more land, consider again playing 1-2 Covetous Dragons main or sb, like Olivier Ruel who had had 2 Rorix Bladewings in his sideboard. If destroyed, Wargear kills us a creature. Covetous is fat, and if played as 1, on those lategame-wannasee-card slots, then the opponent would have to destroy a shield of 2-3 artifacts at least to take Covetous down. This could work somehow in a build with 1 more Mountain, or 1 less Arc-Slogger. Speaking of what is more dangerous, we can always choose not to equip Wargear of course. But Covetous Dragon could be an option in this specific case and in the right amount.
That said, If I were going to sideboard a threat, it'd be either Flametongue Kavu against aggro (He can still kill Tarmogoyfs early, and if he can't, he at least can safely hit play when one's out), or possibly Boldwyr Heavyweights against heavy control and combo.
My random one-of threat is Knollspine Invocation: why not turn the rest of your deck into lightning bolts if you don't draw anarchy vs. humility, etc.
Not that I'm recommending it to anybody else; otoh, if anyone knows of an older card that does the same thing but more better, I'd certainly like to hear about it.
Mink here. I just wrote a huge tournament report and deck analysis for the site in the tournament report section here: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...d=1#post334144
I hope you enjoy it, as it's my thanks for generating many ideas for the build of the deck. Sorry for it taking so long to write. I had a ton of ideas, and wanted to get everything down.
Hey
I've read your report. Very nice.
But I want to ask you:
1.) Why the hell are you running only 1 Needle in the Board? Very much DS-Players are saying that Needle is an automatically 4-of in the board, and you only play 1. I see no logical point in this, you can't even tutor it.
2.) You said tht we really should try the 11th land. I think that could be a good idea, but what do you think about Chartooth Cougar instead?
YawG