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Ok, I have been testing a variety of Zoo builds (bombonne's from the GP, Cat, Big), and I just keep getting blown out by Merfolk in like 60-70% of games. I know this is supposed to be a good matchup, but I just keep running into Misstep/Daze/Force over the first 3-4 turns, and I'm sitting there with an empty board and looking at a bunch of fish that are now out of burn range. Is there some strategy I'm missing here? Am I just unlucky or bad at Magic or what?
How many lavamancers you've had in your builds? Did you play MD games or with sideboard? I tested few MD games Zoo vs Merfolk and when I played cat zoo, I won 80% of the games and the only losses I got was due to horrible flood of lands for me. When playing big zoo (with punishing fire / grove combo) I had much harder time to set up the combo to keep the fish away. Because of that, I won only 60% of the games we played.
How many games have you played as well, play some more games and I guess it might just even out later on. I find it a bit weird that they use misstep / daze / fow 3-4 first turns, play lands (maybe vial) and enough lords to get out of burn range. Check how many cards the fish players have in their opening hand. ;)
So here's my question for you guys:
What are the best sideboard/maindeck cards against dredge? Dredge is running really rampant in my metagame and because of that I'd love to know what tools there are to fight dredge. Because of the nature of how games go against dredge, I would need to have so good sideboard plan against dredge, that I should win the both sideboard games. Here's what I've thought out so far:
MD hate:
Gaddock Teeg
Bojuka Bog
SB hate:
Bojuka Bog
Relic of Progenitus
Tormod's Crypt
Leyline of the Void
Faerie Macabre
Wheel of Sun and Moon
Gaddock Teeg
Surgical Extraction
Volcanic Fallout
If I just could keep the bridges away the matchup would be so easy, we have the superior creatures but it's really really annoying to kill your own creature in order to remove a card from opposing player's graveyard, just to see another one go to a graveyard next turn when they dredge. I'm not afraid at ALL about the dread return targets, just the mass of zombies is really really annoying.
I'm thinking Dueling Grounds is going to get a spot in my SB. Helps against zombie tokens, elves, thopter tokens, fishmen, and goblins.
But what are you going to take out against each of those matchups? Grounds doesn't advance your aggressive board state at all
Yeah, Dueling Grounds is terrible. I can't imagine a scenario where an aggressive creature deck would want to limit itself to only one attacking with one creature. If you want to beat Dredge, play GY hate. If you want to beat Elves, Merfolk and Goblins, play good cards that Zoo already plays.Quote:
Originally Posted by jandax
If you're running a SFM list like bombonne's, I think it's entirely plausible to sit back and ping with Lavamancers while attacking with a single sword-holding KotR/Goyf getting exalted triggers from Pridemages. Maybe it's too situational, I really haven't had much of a chance to test it, but it seems like it would be handy in a variety of bad matchups.Quote:
Originally Posted by CorpT
Edit: Nevermind, just realized Ghostly Prison would be better in all those cases (except combo elves), and easier to cast.
One thing that i really miss in the deck is the capability to destroy non-basic lands. Sometimes I wish to cut Karakas out and add a single Wasteland. Just to fetch to destroy some mazes, ruins, glacial, etc...
I really don't trust in a single Karakas, even with 3-4 KotR, to win against Emrakul/Iona's decks. I just think that it is too slow...
Any thoghts?
Be a man, play three Wastelands next to the Karakas.
This is a build I'm going to play in a tournament next weekend. The meta is unknown, but I expect a lot of Junk type decks (Team Italia, Rock, ect), and the new MUC decks to appear. I chose Zoo because I feel like it is an all around solid aggro choice that doesn't draw too crappily and doesn't outright fold to discard. Any quick advice before I head off?
Land: 22
3 Arid Mesa
3 Windswept Heath
3 Wooded Foothills
3 Taiga
3 Plateau
1 Savannah
1 Plains
1 Forest
1 Mountain
Creatures: 22
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Qasali Pridemage
3 Kird Ape
3 Grim Lavamancer
3 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Gaddock Teeg
Spells: 19
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lightning Helix
3 Path to Exile
2 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Sylvan Library
Sideboard: 15
3 Tormod's Crypt
3 Pithing Needle
2 Gaddock Teeg
2 Price of Progress
2 Choke
1 Path to Exile
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Bojuka Bog
I would up the land count to at least 20, you only have 18 land listed(one of them being a dryad arbor). In my list I only run 1 and 2cc things, and I still don't feel right running 20. With Horizon Canopy acting as a passable mana source and late game cycler, you can afford to run more than 18 land. I would drop a GSZ and the arbor for a basic forest + plains and either the Teeg and/or a Pridemage for 1 or 2 canopy.
I feel Compost does too little against black based decks. They either run Pernicious Deed and you get a small consolation for them blowing you out with it, or they don't play deed and then the black cards will not be the problem. If they hymn you while you have it out, they still 2 for 1'd you because you had to play it, and even worse you spent 1G into something that was not a threat or removal as well. You don't want to drop it early for that same reason. I would run 2 Price of Progress in their place since they will help you against the hardest of the rockish matchups (TA, Junk)
I'd also find room for 2 Choke, since they are a beating and a half against most tempo or control based blue decks. And maybe a Bojuka Bog for random blowouts in Knight wars.
Maybe -1 Crypt -3 Compost -1 Teeg, +2 PoP, +2 Choke, +1 Bog for the sideboard?
Alright, I'll try those changes. Thanks mate. I don't know about the land thing though, I'm finding 18 to be about the right amount.
EDIT: Also, land being 22 was a typo :)
If you're planning on facing Junk and other decks that run Wasteland, you greedy
GSZ is terrible in Zoo without Dryad Arbor or Noble Hierarch to help accelerate it. I would play more creatures or some equipment instead.
Dropped GSZ from my fast Zoo list, very pleased with the results. How do other players feel about a fast list running 19 lands (Kird Ape over Steppe Lynx)?
In reference to those of you opting to drop below 20 lands in your Fast Zoo builds, I recommend reading these words of wisdom from Mr. Gavin Verhey:
http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/f...ugh_Lands.html
As tempting as it is to cram in extra creatures and spells, I think dropping below 22 or 21 lands isn't worth it, even in these hyper-fast 1-drop centered builds. At the moment I personally am running 4x Lynx, 4x Guide, 4x Nacatl, 3x Lavamancer, 4x Lightning Bolt, and 4x Chain Lightning, and I'm still trying to find a way to squeeze in a 22nd land (Horizon Canopy). Even those of you opting not to use Steppe Lynx should still keep the land count high. Zoo wants to be able to play a 1-drop turn 1, 2 1-drops turn 2, and a 1-drop and a 2-drop on turn 3. If you don't draw enough lands, you can't do that, and Wastelands will slow you down even further. My philosophy currently is to run 12x fetchlands, which feed KOTR, Grim Lavamancer, Goyf, and Steppe Lynx, while reducing Wasteland's effectiveness in denying me the right colors. Running that many fetches also can have an actual "deck-thinning" impact in the late game, while still ensuring I hit my land drops. In addition, it means Jace's Fateseal is less effective, and my Sylvan Library is more effective. Horizon Canopy is also amazing at keeping your gas going mid-late game, which is why I want 2.
Lands are good, Mulliganing sucks. Keep that percentage over 33%!!
For Reference, here is my current list:
Dudes (24):
4 Goblin Guide
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Steppe Lynx
2 Grim Lavamancer
4 Tarmagoyf
4 Qasali Pridemage
2 Knight of the Reliquary
Spellage (14)
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
2 Price of Progress
2 Fireblast
2 Sylvan Library
LandHO! (21)
4 Arid Mesa
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Taiga
2 Plateau
1 Savannah
1 Mountain
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Horizon Canopy
I have been trying to decide whether to run Path to Exile main, over Price of Progress or some number of Chain Lightnings, but this was basically the list I ran at the GP.
I would not run less than 3 Grim Lavamancer now. He's very solid. I generally don't like 4, but it may be needed these days. Pridemage has been a little more disappointing lately so I would look at him as a cut.
I think 3 is probably the right number for Path if you expect to see any Knights or Tarmogoyf unless you go up on the burn which is a perfectly valid strategy too.
I've been looking a lower end, faster deck that can really abuse the speed of Zoo and use Retribution of the Meek in the board. Probably similar to Patrick Sullivan's list, but with some tweaks. I know he said he didn't like Steppe Lynx, but I love him. I'm not a fan of Rift Bolt though, so that would probably become some other type of burn for me. Basically a 1-drop Zoo style list with lots of burn backup.
Isn't that just goyf-sligh, then?
I think 3 is the right number of Lavamancer. You more or less always want to see him, but multiples are really hard to support without shafting your Goyfs and KotRs.
I think some number of Paths is necessary maindeck. There are a lot of fatties that are out of burn range and you don't want them stalling up the board. Goyf, KotR, Terravore, Tombstalker. Any of those can just sit there and buy time.
I would also suggest 3x Library main. It's the difference between winning and losing so often, and multiples aren't the worst thing ever.
The only reason multiples of library aren't the worse thing ever is because the first one always gets countered/blown up. ;p
Probably the worst thing about multiple Libraries is when multiple Librarys trigger in play :|
Well yes, but if you have a fetch you can fetch and shuffle your library between the triggers, which is pretty neat.Quote:
Originally Posted by jandax
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jiaozy
Yeah, it's just that the majority of players wouldn't properly stack those triggers. Takes time
hey everyone
this is my first post here,and I want to knowwhat u guys SB against Show & Sneak Atack deck.
Always a problem to me
I was thinking on phyrexian metamorph,that I still can use against jitte,iona os another artifact/creature that could gimme some kind of adavantage.
ty
Was able to complete my zoo deck recently and here is the deck list: I've splashed in Dark confidant for draw engine/card advantage. Tips and suggestions would be much appreciated.. thx
"Manila Zoo"
Creature 24
4 Goblin Guide
4 Wild Nacatl
4 dark confidant
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Tarmagoyf
3 Qasali Pridemage
2 Knight of the Reliquary
instant/sorcery 13
2Lightning Helix
3Chain Lightning
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Path to Exile
Artifact 2
2U.Jitte
Land [21]
3 Arid Mesa
1 Forest
1 Mountain
1 Plains
2 Bayou
2 Plateau
3 Taiga
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills
Anyone with experience going against BUG Still type decks? Lots of counters, lots of creature kill, lots of card draw. Any good sideboard ideas against it?
Welcome to The Source, Vinnie. Please take a moment to read some of the stickies in the main forum to get familiar with the forum rules.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vinnie
Against the Sneak/Show decks, you want to counter the Show and Tell and some of their filtering, so REB is useful in that aspect. Against Sneak Attack, quickly removing the enchantment is useful too; but doesn't always help out. It might typically become a race to see who can win faster.
Thrun, the Last Troll is a good option, as well as a steady stream of pressure to overwhelm them. REB is nice against an active Jace, but it's not very likely that it will resolve against their counters. Man-lands could also be useful. Steady pressure might be the best way, coupled with Wasteland/REB disruption along the way.Quote:
Originally Posted by CorpT
On Grim Lavamancer, Qasali Pridemage and Sylvan Library:
I agree Lavamancer should be a 3-of, and he is now. I was testing out the Goblin Guide playset, as they are more useful in numbers, but Grim Lavamancer is still more valuable in too many matchups to skimp on. 3/3 split is what I'll be running tonight at the LGS.
I disagree that Qasali Pridemage is cuttable right now however. Stoneforge and Batterskull alone make this card more valuable than ever, not to mention all the Landstill decks running around. Also, without maindeck artifact hate, fast zoo decks (with all our glorious 1-drops) just fold to a Chalice of the Void on "One". Exalted is also nothing to sneeze at, so QP stays at 4 in my list.
I've been tempted to run 3 Sylvan Library before too, as it has won me many games that were otherwise out of reach. However, I think 2 is the right number, as we don't need to see it every game and in some cases we don't want to see it at all. I could see having 1 in the SB for control matches, but even that seems unnecessary. Jandax and trivial_matters are right though, if you know how to stack the triggers properly and use your fetchlands wisely, multiple Sylvan Libraries can actually be quite useful. I can see running 3 in a bigger Zoo list, but at the moment I think we want as much pressure as possible.
This also leads to the age old question of whether to run Dark Confidant or not in Zoo. It seems tempting to me but the sacrifice of running an even less stable manabase doesn't seem worth the sometimes-added advantage of a couple Bob flips. If anything, I think Stoneforge Mystic is just as valuable and adds a similar, albeit slower, card advantage engine for the same price, but on color. As great as Bob is, I don't think it's worth getting Wastelanded or mana screwed out of the game more often.
On BUG Still:
BUG Still certainly seems like the worst of the Standstill decks for us, especially the ones with heavier black removal. In addition to what rukcus said above, we have Choke and Price of Progress to help our game against them. I think Price of Progress (PoP) is stronger in Zoo, since we are a proactive deck and we need to keep pressure on them, which Choke doesn't really accomplish. By the time you are ready to cast it, they probably don't need their nonbasics that much, so it's usually better to punish them for having them in play. Also, keeping track of what their counterspell suite is like during Game 1 can help you close the other games with more confidence. It's easy to fall into the trap thinking they always have a counter, but that's what they want you to believe. Count how many Spell Snares they use against you and gauge what other counterspells they might have in hand before you "POP" your PoP, and you might be able to sneak through a high damage spell for the win.
Some good points there. I disagree on Choke though. Landing a Choke often means you win because most of the time they can't get rid of it. Timing it right is quite important, since playing it when the majority of their lands are tapped greatly reduces their options.
Price of Progress is really good and I'd run it in any case.
Try wasteland over PoP. Most folks see PoP as a threat and might play with it in mind. But wasting them in the opening turns is nut high. For the rest of the match they play basics or run their shit into WL, it helps Zoo's aggro strategy a bit. However, PoP can straight up kill outta nowhere, but can be countered pretty easily.
I will give Wasteland a try. A friend actually encouraged me to try it at the GP but I hadn't playtested the mana base at all so I chose to stay stable in that regard. I hesitate to add Wastes because nearly every card in the deck is color intensive, but I can see the value. Will test this next week, if I'm not playing Junk.
I'm currently using 2 PoPs in my sideboard. I like the fact that it can end games quickly vs. some combo variants.Quote:
Originally Posted by jandax
I've been tinkering around with my zoo list for the B-More open, and i've been having trouble with the new hivemind deck. I'm considering running 2 angel's grace in the board just to auto win the MU, but I hate running cards for just one deck. Enchantment removal isn't that good because they just got off in response, and if they give you prority so that you can cast a krosin grip, they are just a bad hivemind player.
Also, play Tariff, that card is awesome against progen decks and show and tell.
Best cards against that deck that aren't "narrow" are Ethersworn Canonist and Red Elemental Blasts. Gaddock Teeg is decent too, but doesn't stop Show and Tell.Quote:
Originally Posted by bombbonne
The awesome thing about Canonist is that if they cheat in Hive Mind off Show and Tell, you can just slip in a Canonist and destroy their Hive Mind with a Pridemage or a Blast on your turn. They won't be able to play a Pact because they'll be first up to pay.
Last time i played was around survival banning, but before the batterskull buisness, and it seems that it is just better to play a slower deck with batterskull than zoo now. Or at least this is what I hear. Personally, i'd like to hear some suggestions as to how to make my deck more prepared for the meta, and any arguments for or against Batterskull/mystic and green suns zenith.
Heres my list, its very fast, so it feels weird if i were to slow it down, but friends are encouraging me to.
Creature 24
2 teeg
4 Wild Nacatl
4 steppe lynx
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Tarmagoyf
4 Qasali Pridemage
1 Knight of the Reliquary (or maindeck krosan grip depending on meta)
enchantment 2
2 sylvan library
instant/sorcery 16
3 Lightning Helix
3Chain Lightning
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Path to Exile
2 POP
Land [20]
1 Forest
1 Mountain
1 Plains
2 Plateau
2 Taiga
4 Arid Mesa
1 savannah
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills
I was consistantly top 8ing with this, but it seems that our meta is full of stoneforge decks and dredge now.
Should i put stoneforge package in? if yes, how.
Zenith? seems bad to me, others disagree..zoo is tempo based, it's not about looking for defensive answers, but about making to many problems for the defense to not be able to answer...
Is zoo bad against stone forge decks? That has not been my experiece.
Your list looks fine to me.
I ran two mystics at my last local weekly and they were fine, but I don't think Batterskull is required when you just run two mystics and are running 3/3s + virtual 4/5s for 1 and Goyfs at 2. In my experiences, Batterskull has value as a late game winner in decks built around mystic, which fast Zoo lists are not and should not be. It also does well against decks with little to no removal/fat, which we already should do well against. I think playing mystics in this deck should attempt solve our biggest combat related problem in getting past fat guys with our weenies(Pro: Green sword for aggression and Jitte for racing fat/being a general bad-ass).
In playing against Batterskull, you'll most likely be able to remove the mystic making it extremely slow, allowing an attempt to get the jump on them before turn 5+ where it'll come down. But again, it's just a 4/4. Goyf will usually outsize it at that point, as well as Knights. Pridemage/Path is a pain for them as well since you can usually hold those for it unless you're playing Bant/Rock + Stoneforge. You also can run a few Ancient Grudges in the sideboard if you really have fear of it. Grudges are pretty good right now in my meta, anyway.
I've tried Green Sun's Zenith, didn't like it much. To make it worthwhile you have to start to look like Rock - Black + Lavamancer/a little burn, and start fighting midrange battles Zoo really shouldn't be fighting in my opinion.
So in this new meta, what decks seem to give you the most trouble? Obviously tendrils and dredge, but I dont know about the new combo decks and maverick, etc. also r/w/x stoneforge decks seem hart to deal with because they have a lot of removal, so we're just trading creatures until they play bigger things and batterskull.
maybe you wanna follow your own advice?Quote:
Originally Posted by jnosrati
RWU and RWB don't seem that bad to me, granted no one runs it in my metagame. What big threats do they run? Maverick isn't run in my meta, either, but I would guess it's close since its basically guys + removal v more guys + less removal. Storm combo is still a bitch, but what are you gonna do, I suppose. Dredge is weird, one month I'll lose to it 3 times, and then win the next few times easily. My losses with my latest Zoo lists I've been trying out the past month have been the usual suspects, NO RUG along with Painter/Double Chalice blowouts. Lost a match to Merfolk, happens.Quote:
Originally Posted by jnosrati