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I'm not that concerned about it getting Decayed. Land recursion is one of the deck's tools, but it's not the whole game plan. If you get even one land back with Crucible you've 2-for-1'ed your opponent. Unless you're playing Lands (the deck) or combo, you're exposed to Decay to some extent. This is just the 'dies to Doom Blade' argument by another name.Quote:
Originally Posted by Barachai
The point is that it is not substantially different from Loam, but can be abrupt decayed; I don't see the point in running it unless you've already maxed out on loams. As far as 3cmc cards that beat prelate are concerned, I'd run extra toxic deluge before crucible. This is not to mention Knight -> Cabal Pit.Quote:
Originally Posted by btm10
I'm certain that the deck wants the first Crucible before the fourth Loam. I'm not sure if the third Loam or first Crucible is better, nor am sure that either is better than a second Deluge, first Tireless Tracker, creature land, or Kolaghan's Command. Crucible is substantially different from Loam in that it doesn't require continuous input of mana or Dredging to recur a land. The cards are complementary, and you usually don't want to substitute one for the other.Quote:
Originally Posted by Barachai
I'm taking this deck for a spin. Anyone have any board plans against miracles and shardless? Do you all typically keep in Chalice vs shardless? I can easily see dropping it for 0 to keep them off of Ancestral. It, honestly. seems like the best card against you after tarmogoyf.
I usually take almost all(might leave 1 if nothing else to cut) and also cut the gaddock teeg and a couple of moxes. You want to grind so focus on that.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheKingslayer
Keep Decays for goyfs, everything else dies to PFire.
Against Miracles I seen so many different boarding plans that I can't point the correct one.
Would say to take 1PFire, 1Loam, 1Ooze, 1Maze and that's it. If you have more things to bring in, cutting the Shaman(if you have it) an extra land or even a knight might be correct.
I agree with this. On the play I might keep 1-2 Chalices in depending on what I expect to see out of the board, but on the draw I'd never leave chalice in against Shardless. Also agree with cutting a couple of Moxes. The matchup is super grindy and they're not really equipped to attack your manabase so the game is gonna be a grind one way or another, it's better to be able to top deck better cards in the late game than it is to have a super explosive start against them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pilhas
So I haven't gotten the chance to test against shardless in a while, but when I did, I tried in game 1 to delay playing the chalice as long as possible. Basically the turn before a visions could happen, rather than playing it ASAP. My logic there is giving the shardless player the smallest and least convenient window to decay the chalice. Sometimes they spend a decay on something else and the chalice gets to do its job. Has anyone else tried this?
I tried go for it for awhile but later realised that they can out card advantage you and not be an issue if you kill goyfs on sight. Their cards are just bad.... The only problem we might face is with a timely Hymn and still they have to drop a goyf for pressure.... pseudo-vanilla 2/2 and 1/1 don't cause pain for usQuote:
Originally Posted by apocolyps6
Not knowing what your deck/sb looks like makes this harder to answer, but what i do, is:Quote:
Originally Posted by TheKingslayer
vs Miracles
-1 maze, -1 deathrite, -1 ooze, -2 knight, / +1 chandra, +1 garruk, +1 ghost quarter, +1 rec sage, +1 golgari charm
vs Shardless
-4 chalice, -1 mox, -1 gaddock, -1 karakas (maybe another land if they run more then one leovold) / +1 chandra, +1 garruk, +1 ghost quarter, +1 tabernacle, +2 swords to plowshares, +1 toxic deludge
Since you are putting way more games than me, how are you feeling about the miracles matchup? Favored? or still nail-biting.Quote:
Originally Posted by MatsOle
Did you tried Arlinn instead of Chandra? Seems better on the manabase but not sure on the overall effects....
Favored pre board, slightly unfavored post.
Never tried arlinn, kinda the reason i started playing chandra was to have something to play if blood moon hits, that is also good in grindy games. Also the double red doesn't come up much vs miracles/shardless if you keep it in mind when fetching.
will give her a go today in testing. Do you keep vods anywhere?Quote:
Originally Posted by MatsOle
They are usualy up on my channel for a week or so, but i haven't had much time to stream lately.
Thx.Quote:
Originally Posted by MatsOle
Any Loamers counting on going to Eternal Weekend?
@Pilhas I was convinced to try that approach the last time Shardless was brought up (still looking to test), just wondering about game 1 where the chalices still have to be in your deck.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MatsOle
Have you always been boarding out knights? I find pfire #3 and Mox #4 to be worse than knight in the matchup. Knight frequently needs to be answered even by itself, probably moreso from more target-heavy lists but its gotta be better than lategame a mox.
Quote:
Originally Posted by apocolyps6
Waiting on chalice can be good, but they also play hymns, so it can be very risky.
I haven't always done it like this, no, but i feel like this is the best way to sideboard that i've tried. I would never cut moxes vs miracles, as you never know if they are on back to basic, from the ashes or blood moon post board, and mox lets you keep playing regardless. I also feel punishing fire is far better then knight in this matchup. Knight is usually only good in the games were you have challice on one on the table, (less likely after board) or when you chain creatures, but i wouldn't really want to see knight in my starting hand vs miracles, so that seems unlikely.
Thanks for the explanation.
I remember pushing back against Kronberger's -2 mox for similar reasons. My list is better set up to deal with B2B and Moon, so that might be the deciding factor between 0 and 1 mox. I'm really sceptical about keeping all the pfires tho. Most miracles lists are so creature-light that I never remember wanting to see a second pfire.
I also frequently go on a Teeg-based pressure gameplan against them, rather than playing a more passive planeswalker based game. Its a D&T-style disruption + clock plan rather than Jund-style grind. I find that if I put them on the backfoot, I end up having to answer less things because it is the miracles player trying to stabilize. I don't think I can do a good job of explaining.
Hopefully this video shows a bit of what I mean. I didn't have to answer Counterbalance or Mentor because the opponent was under too much pressure/disruption to make full use out of either.
Tested Chandra yesterday and she seems great. The ability to resolve her a deal with an opposing Jace(usually they drop Jace+bounce a creature) and her ultimate is relevant which was a problem with other planeswalkers.
Went 5-3 at the Legacy classic for SCG Baltimore. 56th out of 204 players, although 15 points extended all the way up to 30th I believe, I just had crap breakers because I decided to start 0-2 before turning things around. I only won the die roll once in 8 rounds though which is obviously a nightmare for a chalice deck. Matchups were:
L: 1-2 vs. Eldrazi
L: 0-2 vs. ANT
W: 2-1 vs. B/G Turbo Depths
W: 2-1 vs. R/B Reanimator
L: 1-2 vs. W/B Death and Taxes (black splash was for Dark Confidant and that Kambal card)
W: 2-0 vs. ANT
W: 2-1 vs. ANT
W: 2-1 vs. Sultai Control
The loss to eldrazi was particularly vexing because I stomped him G1 and G2 I stabilized at about 8 life after a clutch Toxic Deluge and left him with 1 land, but even with Sylvan Library in play and drawing some fetches, the only creature I saw for the rest of the game was a Rec Sage, which attacked for 5 turns before a reality smasher kicked my teeth in. Any Knight or Loam or even Bob would've won me the game for sure.
List was:
1x Forest
2x Bayou
1x Savannah
1x Scrubland
1x Badlands
1x Taiga
4x Verdant Catacombs
2x Windswept Heath
4x Wasteland
3x Grove of the Burnwillows
1x Dryad Arbor
1x Karakas
1x Tranquil Thicket
1x Barren Moor
1x Cabal Pit
1x Maze of Ith
4x Dark Confidant
4x Knight of the Reliquary
1x Deathrite Shaman
1x Scavenging Ooze
1x Gaddock Teeg
1x Grim Flayer
3x Liliana of the Veil
4x Chalice of the Void
4x Mox Diamond
2x Life from the Loam
2x Green Sun's Zenith
1x Sylvan Library
3x Abrupt Decay
3x Punishing Fire
SB
2x Swords to Plowshares
2x Thoughtseize
1x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1x Golgari Charm
1x Reclamation Sage
1x Toxic Deluge
1x Kolaghan's Command
1x Boil
1x Chandra, Torch of Defiance
1x Garruk Relentless
3x Leyline of the Void
Kolaghan's Command was consistently awesome. Instant speed blow up your LED discard your Infernal Tutor with a second LED on the stack was a highlight of my day. Grim Flayer had tested well online, although I obviously didn't get a set of matchups where he was at his best. I really like how his ability has a bunch of different synergies with the rest of the cards in the deck (clear bad cards from sylvan library, set up a painless bob flip, turbo charge knight, etc.). If I had to run it back, I'd definitely find room for a second Deluge, D&T and BUG was everywhere, although ymmv (the east coast, and the mid-atlantic in particular has always had a ton of D&T and it only got worse after Conspiracy last year).
Anyway, deck is great. Keep on loaming everyone.
So I've been playing this deck for a few years now and just recently got into it on modo. I was struggling a bit at first but after watching Mats_Ole I've really stepped up my game and got to the point where I was doing really well. However recently I found the online metagame fairly hostile for loam and was struggling with the TNN BUG matchups.
After struggling and swapping things around I hit on a list this morning that I feel has amazing potential. Two 4-1's and a 5-0 later and I'm sure that this list is prime with a combined record of 13-2.
Lands (26):
4x Verdant Catacomb
1x Windswept Heath
1x Forest
1x Swamp
3x Grove of the Burnwillows
4x Wasteland
2x Bayou
1x Scrubland
1x Savannah
1x Badlands
1x Taiga
1x Tranquil thicket
1x Barren moor
1x Cabal Pit
1x Dryad arbor
1x karakas
1x maze of ith
Creatures (10):
4x Dark Confidant
4x KotR
1x Scooze
1x Teeg
Instants and Sorcs (11):
3x abrupt decay
3x pfire
2x loam
1x deluge
2x GSZ
Other (13):
4x Mox Diamond
4x Chalice of the Void
3x Lili of the Veil
2x Chains of Mephostopheles
SB(15):
2x Leyline of the Void
2x Swords to Plowshares
2x Thalia Guardian of Thraben
1x Abrupt Decay
1x Golgari Charm
1x Toxic Deluge
1x Garruk Relentless
1x Tabernacle
1x Ghost Quarter
1x Choke
1x Reclamation Sage
1x Maelstrom Pulse
-----------------------------------------------
So I've done a few things differently from the stock (Mats_Ole) list. First off I cut the Deathrite shaman. I know the reason people like DRS but at the same time too often I find it eating my own graveyard or getting stuck behind a chalice and would rather play a "smoother" list. I also decided to move the maelstrom pulse to the board as I still wanted access to it but felt that it wasn't totally necessary before people bring in their hate cards. In these two slots I've decided to try out Chains of Mephostopheles.
Now there are plenty of hate cards in legacy so why chains? Well thanks for asking! I feel that chains does a few things for this deck that I felt I wanted. First and foremost I wanted a 2 cmc proactive threat that I could play. Essentially when you start the game with a mox diamond you really want to get on board immediately and currently you have 10 cards in scooze, teeg, bob and chalice. Now chains brings us up to 12 proactive 2 drops so that essentially when you have the mox open you have the huge haymaker to go with it. I'll let the Frank Karstens of the world run the numbers for me here but its definitely a change. Chains also does a great job of a pseudo chalice on 1 by making ponder terrible and brainstorm a legit -3 card play. Now it won't stop a litany of other 1 cmc problems but having the upside of turning off 3/4's of a Jace is the real deal too. It also lets you use your wastelands against an active Leovold and not feel horrible as well as making him pain free to remove.
The other notorious card missing here is sylvan library. Now don't get me wrong the card is great but in the matchups it matters I now already have chains and with adding 2 dead cards (chains) to the nonblue matchups I really needed an ace in the hole, enter Toxic Deluge. I will never again play loam without a deluge in the main. Not only does it deal with pesky TNN's and Leovolds but it blows a massivle hole in decks like DnT and Eldrazi. In deep s**t? Just 3 mana makes it all better. Now the card does have some anti-synergy with bob both costing life and bob always dying to even the smallest deluge but the upside is a literal 3 cmc wrath.
Now the other change to the stock list here is so subtle that most people probably missed it. I cut the second windswept heath for a swamp. This change is more relevant than ever as the number of ghost quarters goes up. DnT has adopted them as well as lands and theres even one hiding out in our sb as well. This isn't even to mention how amazing the card is in blood moon matchups. Always having access to abrupt decay mana under a moon is a godsend and honestly lets you play out your game with little more than an inconvenience. This also has the fantastic side effect of freeing us up space in our sideboard because now we don't need a card like Chandra for said matchups. Again the swamp pops up in the burn matchup (and U/R delver) where it laughs in the face of price of progress and lets you play a real game without fear of PoP. I've also found it to be invaluable in matchups where wastelands are abundant as you can often keep yourself afloat on mana even if they draw the dreaded quad wasteland hand. Essentially basic swamp is the real deal and it is amazing that this single land changes so many % points in so many matches but it really does.
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The Sideboard
Before I launch into it here let me say that this deck has the single most packed 75 of any deck I have ever played. No matter what configuration I use I always feel like there are at least 6 more cards that could fit into my board at any given time that are painful to not include.
2x Leyline of the Void
Honestly for the longest time I've been playing 3 and only recently moved back to 2. The R/B Reanimator matchup is so bad I honestly feel like I need 4 to win consistently. I'm torn not having the 3rd as well as I have had great success with leyline against a huge list of decks. (Mirror, Dredge, Storm, Oops, Lands, Reanimator, Nic Fit, Painter, and more) but for now I'm willing to roll the dice with 2 as the only matchups I really see it having a large impact on are Reanimator, Dredge, the mirror, lands, and oops which even combined is only about 10% of the meta. And again 3 leylines wasn't getting me over 50% against the R/B version of reanimator either way so for now I'm down to 2 as leyline can come down later on in the mirror and lands matchups and still be effective.
2x Swords to Plowshares
So this is a necessary evil. You don't stand a great chance against Eldrazi without these so for awhile I was only playing 1 to leave room for the 3rd leyline but I've lost enough to GeneralSharky and had enough close calls with DaSneakyPete to respect it and up this to 2 as I feel it will be a very common matchup. It also does good work in the DnT and the BUG matchups where you remove your chalices so its not only here for 1 deck.
2x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
So this spot is always a 2 of but its always thalia or ethersworn cannonist. Now cannonist is just strictly better in the storm and omnishow matchups so why use thalia? Well for one shes better in the burn matchup if only because she can handle goblin guide and eidolon better. But shes also a strong threat in the miracles matchup. Worth noting this is not considered a fact, I know Mats_Ole doesn't like thalia in the miracles matchup. I know you drop in often here so please tell me if I didn't understand correctly but Mats doesn't like thalia as she isn't conducive to your primary game plan against miracles which is to loam and loam until you get a pfire loop going to control their jace and snaps and mentor and such. Honestly I just disagree here. I feel like thalia hurts them far more than she hurts you and does significant damage before they eventually remove her. Couple this with the fact that my build with chains and a choke is far more restricting on miracles mana and card selection and I think thalia becomes that much more potent here.
1x Abrupt Decay
Honestly I will never play this deck without 4 decay. I tried it and I hated it, decay is an amazing card and is amazingly well positioned. There is a massive list of decks where you want as much of this effect as possible. I'm looking to move this back to the main and probably over 1 of the chains as chains is utterly dead in non blue matches but for the sake of testing I wanted to draw it as often as possible to test it out and see how bad it is when its bad. Then again decay is super dead in combo matchups so it might stay here.
1x Golgari Charm
I've always floated between 1 and 2 of these. Chains goes a long way in ruining the function of the TNN decks so I really only lose some points against DnT, Elves, Omnishow, and Enchantress. All but Omni are already good matchups and ones that I already have maindecked deluge to hedge for. I'd love a second it just doesn't fit.
1x Toxic Deluge
My god this card is powerful. I've considered playing 2 maindeck for awhile now and honestly I don't think I will ever go back to 0. TNN decks are on the rise so cards like this are necessary but the damage this card does to DnT or Elves or even Eldrazi is ghoulish to watch and I would play it regardless. Always keep the second one handy, it does to fair decks what Gaddock teeg does to ANT storm.
1x Garruk Relentless
The only extra threat card in my sb but we all know and love this one by now. Whether hes pumping out a never ending army to kill sad miracles players or bashing creatures to clear the way for knight this one is here to stay.
1x The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
Originally I didn't play this card for the sole reason that I figured I'd never own one in paper. Now I'm trying to figure out how in the hell I'm going to convince my fiance that $1k for a card is worth it. This card is absolutely bonkers against most fair decks. Whether its forcing Eldrazi to eat ancient tomb pings every turn to keep their board state or keeping elves perpetually tapped out Tabby is one fine magic card. Again fair decks cower in fear of the mighty tabernacle as this card warps the game mightily into your favor. Bonus points if you play it after storm empty's the warrens on you!
1x Ghost Quarter
People be greedy with their mana man. Whether its delver players who think its ok to not play basics or even other 4c loam players with no swamp ghost quarter puts in work time and time again sending people back to the stone age and being the cause of many a concession.
1x Choke
So this was the Chandra slot I told you about earlier. Turns out that swamp means you just don't need chandra to fight through the moon decks so you can open it up to a broader range of interests. Again I wanted a card that would help me against True Name Leovold decks and miracles alike. I also wanted a card to fight against the surprising number of people smart enough to play 3+ basics to escape even the greediest of ghost quarter loops. In the end choke is the perfect fit. Blue decks represent probably 75% of the winners metagame so if you're the one doing the winning you're going to be playing against islands. Choke is also unique in that it is an enchantment, something particularly difficult to interact with for any deck without abrupt decay. Now even the miracle players careful enough to fetch all basics and the sneak and show player cantripping to set up his combo find themselves without the requisite mana to complete their plans. Choke also represents what I think represents the critical mass of noncreature permanents that miracles can't deal with. Their wear/tears and councils judgment are already being taxed like mad with moxen, chalices, and chains so the choke is often the straw that broke the camels back. I've found that essentially whichever of these problem cards comes down last often comes in uncountered and unanswerable for the miracle player.
1x Reclamation Sage
This card does exactly what it needs to do at a fair price and is even kind enough to be green so you can tutor him up. Never leave home without your friendly neighborhood elf. This card honestly has more interactions and matchups than I can even list.
1x Maelstrom Pulse
Don't play this deck without one of these in your 75 somewhere. Legacy is a crazy scary wonderful place and sometimes you need to kill something dead no ifs ands or buts. This is another card I would love in the starting 60 and I'm sure it will wiggle its way in there again at some point.
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Notably Absent Cards
1-2x Thoughtseize
I used to run 2 of these in the board and if show and tell variants continue to become more popular they will come back. For now most of the combo decks are easy enough to beat as it, though reanimator seems to have my number.
1x Chandra, Torch of Defiance
Play a swamp you don't need her.
1x Grazing Gladeheart
Its true that burn is a god awful matchup for this deck and may Worth have mercy on your soul if you are on the draw without a chalice but I don't think the card is worth a slot in the sb as your sb slots are extremely valuable in this deck.
1x Containment Priest
If I was really worried about show and tell variants I would play thoughtseize first, and again leyline is the answer for reanimator.
1x Bojuka Bog
Honestly I always forget about this card, I think I would rather play the 3rd leyline but its certainly close.
If you've come this far thank you for reading, as you can probably tell I really love this deck and will never stop playing it. Cheers mates!
If you aren't banking on opening Leyline, and just want to hardcast it later, I think there's a better option. Planar Void or Lost Legacy can do work as well, plus the obvious Surgical.
Mainboard Chains does seem pretty spicy.
How many times did Chains won you(or actively helped) the game versus the times that people don't know how to play against it?
Just asking because from a bit of testing on my end, Decks like Miracles or Sneak and Show, don't have great problems with the card, but usually people don't know how to play against it.
Still I love the card, would just run a split between chains and library(would also run the combo with this configuration).
I actually like the 2nd basic a lot, however I really dislike going below 6 fetches since our color requirements are very specific at times.
You will, as soon as True Name Nemesis decks die out a bit. When he was big people were playing Deluge/Charm main, then it died out and got cut.Quote:
I will never again play loam without a deluge in the main.
(...)
2x Swords to Plowshares
You really don't need it main against D&T.
Sword to plowshares were added to fight against decks where Chalices were boarded out(Shardless/D&T/Infect). During mkm Frankfurt we realised that they were better than expected against decks where we also wanted chalice since either we have 3 dead cards vs their 30, or we have efficient removal.
Against eldrazi you can probably win the matchup with your Main only since it is so loopsided.
You only lose to broken openings Mimic->TKS->Smasher with only sol lands and you still have game against that.
Still prefer Canonist over Thalia, but to each their own.
Not sure where you got the impression that Chandra was there to fight moon decks... It is a grindy card for grindy matchups(Miracles in particular).Quote:
Turns out that swamp means you just don't need chandra to fight through the moon decks so you can open it up to a broader range of interests.
Don't really agree with this and would ask everyone on the thread(me included) to not put big statements like this since it can mess up new players.Quote:
1x Maelstrom Pulse
Don't play this deck without one of these in your 75 somewhere.
Pulse never was a staple of the deck and if I am not mistaken, it was never part of a winning decklist of a major tournament.
PS. Hope this did not come to hard :smile: Only my 2 cents
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I am trying to run a split of 3/1 Wasteland/Ghost Quarter and a split of 3/1 Knight/Tracker to see how is the impact of going down on those cards.
Tracker seems a very good card in the grindy matchups since you can get garanteed value if it resolves(assuming you are casting it t4, as you should)
The split on wastelands is to check if Ghost Quarter is very bad in the matchups that we only want wastelands. Don't think we have space on the sideboard to run it without leaving too many matchups on the down swing.
Correct me if I'm missing something here, but why would you ever board out Chalice against Infect? Like half of the cards in that deck are CMC 1.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pilhas
You would not board it out(my bad on the writing), but it was one of the decks that we originally talked about when considering swords.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ephemeron
PS. Fun fact! It was also the tournament where the crop rotation package(Crop+Tabernacle+bojukabog) was tested and Chandra, Flame Caller(I think).
Thanks for the post, Wild_Island_Appeared. Not a lot of people stray too far away from Kronberger's or Mats' lists, which is kind of a shame, so I don't mean this to be critical in that way.
About the Chains, despite what you say you cut for them, the closest analog in the deck is Sylvan Library (Mats only plays one, but plenty off ppl myself included play 2). I've tried to squeeze chains into the deck multiple times, but at the end of the day it for me it always came down to:
"Do I want to potentially screw over my opponent, or do I want to consistently improve my gameplan?" Library just works with the deck so well, it is somewhere between a Sensei's Divining Top, and a Necro. I don't think I've ever seen someone lose a midrange matchup with on in play.
The places where chains is better than Library is with combo decks, but I think they are a small enough percentage of the field that we can solve them with the sideboard. Plus, Chains messes up our cycle lands
SB:
Leyline: If you are going below 3 and talking about hardcasting it, then just play something that costs less than 4 mana. Surgical, RIP, Containment Priest, Cage, Nihil Spell Bomb, whatever.
STP: already talked about. Good in just about every matchup where chalice is bad.
Thalia: Canonist is not strictly better against storm. 2xIsland+fetch lets ANT players Ponder + brainstorm in 1 turn cycle through Canonist. Thalia stops this. It also costs 3 mana to decay Thalia. Canonist is better for Omni, Elves, and Aluren, while Thalia is better against Miracles and Show&Tell, ANT, etc.
Charm: Do you actually find yourself needing a third of this effect after the 2 Deluge? I've been on a mini-crusade to get ppl to upgrade charm to a second deluge
Maelstrom Pulse: I think "I have to answer everything" is the wrong mindset to have. Some decks will just have cards you can't interact with well, and the solution there is being proactive, rather than trying to draw a 1of out. I've found that most of the cards I used to needs Pulse for, STP does the job for a third of the mana and one fewer slot.
@ Pilhas
I find it difficult to tell exactly how many times chains actively won me the game. After its in play your opponent simply won't play their brainstorms and will only play ponder if they get desperate and opponents rarely reveal their hands at the end of a game so I admit it is very difficult to tell whether the tech shut them down or they flooded out but I will say that my personal win % against Miracles and Leo BUG has gone up since making the changes. I agree that I feel myself wanting library back but the 75 of this deck is insanely crowded, currently I'm thinking to cut the last golgari charm and move a chains to the board to free up the mainboard library slot.
I agree that going lower than 6 fetches does make your mana slightly harder to control but I've found that if you are just very careful about what lands you go get and give a strong bias to getting black you come out ok. I think the swamp is worth more than the last fetch and I don't feel any of the other lands are particularly negotiable.
You might be right and I'm wearing the rose colored glasses looking at Deluge through the lens of a TNN format but the amount of success and blowouts I've gotten in game 1s in fair matchups outside of TNN is really high. Having a reset button for the board state is something this deck doesn't usually have access to and I really enjoy it.
I have struggled with the Eldrazi matchup more so than other Loam players unfortunately. I'm not sure exactly what my errors have been so far but I feel like they always have the t2 tknot to punish. Originally I suspected that strong wasteland hands were the key and yet they seem to keep land heavy hands in the matchup. I''d love to hear your breakdown of this matchup.
I got the idea that Chandra was for moon decks from Mats stream, hes said something along those lines about the card multiple times. Honestly her mana cost is pretty restrictive for this deck and while she is a good grind card I was finding myself leaving her in the board against all the daze decks and not bringing her into the DnT or Eldrazi matchups where she was easily stranded by a wasteland so I just didn't feel like the slot was giving me enough mileage, again I'd love to hear your breakdown on Chandra.
I am surprised to hear that pulse is not ubiquitous across all loam players. I have always played 1 and have done so to devastating effect. I agree that we want to be proactive but the card has so many uses (especially post board when people bring in their hate) that I never really considered playing without it.
@apocolypse
I do find myself wanting my library back but initially I wanted to draw chains as much as possible in order to grade its effectiveness to which it has done by a substantial degree. Currently I'm thinking I plan on cutting my golgari charm from my board and moving a chains to the board to free up a library slot.
As to the canonist thalia debate I wanted as much power as I could get vs the largest share of the meta. With Miracles always at the top end of metagame share and sneak and show climbing back up the ranks recently I am very comfortable choosing thalia as omnishow is just a nightmare matchup regardless and our elves and aluren matchups are already pretty good.
About pulse its funny, I've had the exact opposite experience with it. I always find it killing a jace, a griselbrand, an empty the warrens, or pithing needles all of which are either not something stp can handle or in the case of griseldaddy doesn't allow them to draw an extra 7 without significant risk.
Regardless I am 100% with you on your crusade to get loam players to use 2 deluge in the 75. That card is bonkers.
Chains-Library: I get that the list was meant to test chains, and when I was thinking of playing chains I envisioned it as a 2of in the sideboard. The other reason I talk about library here is one turns off the other. Any time we are boarding in chains, we want to board out library. And I don't think I've sold ppl on just how good green necro is, but even against decks like storm I almost prefer library (it draws us very well to other hate cards)
Thalia-Canonist: I'm in agreement with you here. There has been an uptick in Aluren and a downtick in ANT locally so I was considering a swap, but I'm generally firmly in the Thalia camp.
Eldrazi usually can't beat an established knight. I had a game log for a while and looking at the eldrazi games, almost all of the wins mention Knight or the combo.
Its actually cards like Thalia that make me feel the need for pulse less. I replied to Mats on the last page about this very thing, and showed a video where constant disruptive pressure made it impossible for my miracles opponent to get value off of a Mentor (Jace would have fared the same)
Most Eldrazi can't beat a knight however playing out a quick knight runs the risk of dismember and a safe knight runs the risk of getting endbringer locked. Both of these are just 2 ofs so maybe I'm overblowing it but it certainly feels closer than this community makes me feel it should be.
I feel Canonist is better in the matchups you're losing to, and can actually beat. I don't see myself beating s&t anymore, as any experienced s&t player should beat you, most of the time even if i had an extra 4-5 slots in the sideboard. So even tho i don't like to give up matchups, i feel like this one is to hard to actually win. So what matchups are Thalia clearly better then Canonist in, sure s&t, and maybe that is a good reason to run her over Canonist, and sure she is also better vs miracles, i won't argue With that. The two Creatures attack ANT in very diffrent ways so i think it's hard to say one is clearly better, but Thalia is probably better vs TES. Like is so much easier to hold up golgari charm for regeneration vs ANT with Canonist, a play that have won me sevral games vs ANT. Also Thalia is probably much better vs burn. Canonist makes the elves matchup better, help vs Aluren/Food Chain, and also does some work vs burn/infect.Quote:
Originally Posted by apocolyps6
As i have said before i don't feel i need Thalia in the miracles matchup, and i don't doubt that she hinders them more then us, but at what price. Sure she might tax them, but from the game i saw, you put yourself in a position i don't want to be in vs miracles, were you have sevral creatures on the board and a terminus would be a blowout. I also don't feel safe behind chalice, as an EOT wear/tear into a cantrip and then terminus usually just means game over. You also kind of have to chain creatures like i talked about earlier. And i'm not really looking to keeping a creature heavy hand post board. So yes, Thalia probably is good vs miracles, but it doesn't do anything for my gameplan vs miracles, and you only have so many cardslots so i feel like i would have to take out a card i would rather have. Not saying this is the best way to play, but it's working very well for me so i don't really see any reason to stop playing the matchup the way i do.
Chandra might be the card i sideboard in the most, it's basicly good in evry grindy matchup, and since i side in more removal vs delver decks, they also become grindier. So she comes in against, Dnt, delver deck, miracles, stompy, mavrick and eldrazi among others. You are correct that i said i wanted something that was good aginst blood moon, but as with evry sideboard card, it needs to work against more then one deck, otherwise it's not worth the spot.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wild_Island_Appeared
I also find the elves matchup to be pretty even, and the aluren matchup to be unfavored game one atleast, so that might add to why i feel Canonist is better.
On the toxic vs charm debate, i would much rather have the 2nd charm, it does so much work vs diffrent decks. vs Death and taxes beeing able to have two extra Cards to remove rest in peace with is big as most of the time charm for -1/-1 wins the game even if they have a creature or two left. Against ANT regging Your creatures can be game winning, and it also makes sure you have more ways to deal with goblins. In the burn matchup it's both a way to reg Knight in some games, and deals with a lot of their stuff aswell, including eidolon. I usually side in 1 vs Miracles two if they are very enchantment heavy. It makes the enchantress matchup far better. In some rare games you can even get games of Omni with Canonist into charm. Also regeneration vs deed decks is Nice. Toxic is better in some matches, don't get me wrong, but I think charm is a far stornger sideboard card. Again as usual, I might be wrong on evrything.
Could not put my thoughts on the Canonist vs Thalia better, so thank you for that.Quote:
Originally Posted by MatsOle
Can you tell me if you bring Chandra against all Delvers? or only BUG?
What is your typical sideboard against delver?
I usually just cut a couple of chalice+teeg for more removal versus BUG and Teeg for sweeper against Grixis.
That sounds like a reasonable sideboard plan to me, on the draw against bug I wouldn't even bother with chalice since it's too easy for them to get under it and/or blow it up. On the play a couple of chalice is reasonable though.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pilhas
My testing has suggested that Chandra isn't as good against Grixis as it is against BUG (as you probably suspect) but it's still worth bringing it. The games are still super grindy and if you can stick it on a board with any semblance of parity, it becomes a must answer threat because it can run away with a game super fast if left unchecked.
I will test it out, but its weird to bring a 4 mana card on the draw against a daze deck, and on the play you probably don't take all chalices.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ephemeron
Honestly, Maelstrom Pulse has proven to be invaluable to me as a singleton in my board.
The utility of a spell that can handle any trouble permanent in a topdeck war, in my opinion, cannot be overstated.
The card is certainly not as efficient as the STP board plan, though a removal spell that can hit all of; JTMS, Leyline of the Void and Griselbrand is certainly worth consideration.
@apocolyps6
I'm not sure that the mentality of "I must answer everything" is really my approach to pulse as a card. I think of the card more in the vein of "the span of problem permanents that I might face on t2 is too broad for me to justify narrow answers".
I think this point we are arguing is pretty small. I've played a Pulse in my board in the past, and I might again one day. IMO having 1of non-tutorables in a non-blue deck isn't great for consistency but that is sort of a "deckbuilding theory" argument.
Looking at your examples:
JTMS - I try never to leave my board so empty that I can't attack a Jace. Otherwise the less clean method of Pfire does the trick.
Leyline - This thing I ignore in 90% of my games. I take the loss of a loam and just beat the opponent with the rest of the deck. I also have a pridemage in the main if I do care.
Griz - If you don't have the grave hate or the karakas/maze its usually too late to resolve 3 mana removal
What I meant by that statement is that you are choosing play patterns that make those cards a pattern for you. Whenever my opponent has a good Jace/leyline it is because they are already winning and that card pushes them over the edge. Most of the time I don't need anything special to deal with it. Griz I also strongly prefer to fight in a way that does not play into Force
I guess we are straying into the realm of semantics, though It's an interesting thought experiment.
You've convinced me to give pridemage a go in the same slot, I'll see how we go with that.
I'm going to a small Legacy event this Sunday, and I'm going to give Aggro loam a whirl - now I've not really played the deck before, only dabbled around testing with a friend - no tournemant setting. Just posting up here if any of you guys have any suggestions for a new loam player and what you think of the list I'm taking - does it need any desperate modifications?
I know a decent amount of what the metagame will be as I have played in the store before with other decks, it's normally along the line of :
2/3 Miracles
1 Sneak and Show
1 Maverick
2/3 Shardless
2/3 BUG Midrange
2 Grixis Delver
2 UR Delver
3 DnT
1 ANT
1 Nic Fit
Here's my list I'm working with at the moment:
Mainboard:
Lands (26):
2 Bayou
1 Badlands
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Taiga
1 Forest
1 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacomb
2 Windswept Heath
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Cabal Pit
1 Maze of Ith
1 Karakas
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
4 Wasteland
1 Tranquil Thicket
1 Barren Moor
Creatures (11):
4 Dark Confidant
4 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Scavenging Ooze
Spells (23):
4 Mox Diamond
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Punishing Fire
2 Life From the Loam
2 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Sylvan Library
3 Liliana of the Veil
1 Toxic Deluge
Sideboard:
1 Choke
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Garruk Relentless
1 Ghost Quarter
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
2 Kolaghan's Command
3 Leyline of the Void
1 Reclamation Sage
2 Swords to PLowshares
1 Toxic Deluge
Maindeck looks generic enough. I like the specialty land package you have.
Not in love with the sideboard Ghost Quarter but it can be useful. Against that field I think you could cut it. Abrupt Decay, Golgari Charm, Krosan Grip (SDT, Omni, equipment, Deed), Swords would be good. Sudden Shock even (DRS, Mother). I'd side towards Grip or Charm for the enchantment removal, since you have a ton of creature wipes - Deluge main and board, Tabernacle, and lots of targeted removal.
I'm not sure convinced you need the Leylines, but something random could come along and it's your only dedicated grave hate. Could supplement with combo hate instead (Thalia, Thoughtseize) that still hits the grave dependent decks you know of (ANT).
Main advice would be that you're not Lands, so don't be aggressively Loaming unless you have something you're actively planning on doing (Wasteland, cycling, Cabal Pit). Your deck doesn't need Loam to play its game. You only need to Loam in desperation if you're needing to get a certain land to not lose the next turn (Maze, Pit, Karakas).
I'm wanting to keep the leylines in I think as reanimator can crop up from time to time at that place - and I believe as you said it's just useful to have GY hate in the board somewhere.
I love the sound of sudden shock, as an avid user and lover of sudden shock I'm disappointed with myself as I didn't think of it!
I'm not sure how I feel about Kolaghan's command though, what matchups is it useful for? I like it as an all round utility card but I'm not sure what I want to be bringing it in against. but that's my biggest issue at the moment, I'm not sure really what I should be boarding for specific matchups.
So I'm thinking of revising the board to something like so:
1 Choke
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Garruk Relentless
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
2 Kolaghan's Command
3 Leyline of the Void
1 Reclamation Sage
2 Swords to Plowshares
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Sudden Shock
I would say this is an amazing field for it, i would bring it in against 2/3 of the decks listed above.Quote:
Originally Posted by Claymore
Yeah, some are good, but my thought was that it was Wasteland seemed it could pull most of the weight:
2/3 Miracles - No
1 Sneak and Show - No, lots of basics
1 Maverick - They run 3-4 basics and mana dorks
2/3 Shardless - Yes, but no basics
2/3 BUG Midrange - Yes, no basics
2 Grixis Delver - Yes, but no basics
2 UR Delver - No, lots of basics
3 DnT - No
1 ANT - Risky, I'd say no
1 Nic Fit - No
I always felt the sweet spot is a slow/mid range deck that can rely on 2 basics to not get Wastelocked. Of the ones here, I think most just have no basics anyway. It's a good effect but didn't seem strong enough against the field overall. You'd be hinging on using it against Shardless or BUG midrange.
I guess the other option is to use it as Wasteland #5, which could work well against the BUG decks.