Miracle Control

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Originally Posted by Adryan

@ mini

I don't want to be rude, but honestly every RIP list is strictly inferior to a non RIP List with Cliques and/or SCM.
But this really shows how powerful the Miraclearchetype is, you can dilute the majority of your Maindeck, but if the core of the deck remains somehow intact you still have a good deck.

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I've played several different iterations of Miracles over the last year, starting with a 3x Clique, 1x Blood Moon version. I certainly can recognize the power of Clique, but my personal preference has been to move them entirely to the side. I like having the option of playing a completely creatureless game (outside of Entreat) and it allows me to play a very anti-creature gameplan.
I wouldn't agree with RIP versions being inferior to non-RIP versions. While it is partially a local meta choice, Rest in Peace has done a ton of work against a large amount of popular decks (hosing any graveyard value creature and many combo lines). In addition, as YamiJoey said, having access to free wins and an additional pseudo-Moat is huge. I find 2 RIP in the main with 1 Tutor to be a solid amount and it keeps me from flooding with them in the matchups where they are only relevant with Energy Field or Helm.
Moat does a ton of work and the stability of a U/W manabase is awesome. No creatures in the main (aside from Entreat) allows me to use Humility against creature strategies which generally can't deal with it (normally only Abrupt Decay or creature-based removal for enchantments) and just blow them out.
I don't think I'm playing a completely optimal version, but I've been very happy with my results.

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Originally Posted by mini1337s

I wouldn't agree with RIP versions being inferior to non-RIP versions. While it is partially a local meta choice, Rest in Peace has done a ton of work against a large amount of popular decks (hosing any graveyard value creature and many combo lines). In addition, as YamiJoey said, having access to free wins and an additional pseudo-Moat is huge. I find 2 RIP in the main with 1 Tutor to be a solid amount and it keeps me from flooding with them in the matchups where they are only relevant with Energy Field or Helm.
Moat does a ton of work and the stability of a U/W manabase is awesome. No creatures in the main (aside from Entreat) allows me to use Humility against creature strategies which generally can't deal with it (normally only Abrupt Decay or creature-based removal for enchantments) and just blow them out.
I don't think I'm playing a completely optimal version, but I've been very happy with my results.

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I definitely respect your opinion on the matter. The problem with RiP is that it's a dead card in some Match-ups, i.e. Sneak and Show, Death and Taxes...etc., having Drawing a 2nd RiP is Not desirable. The other problem with RiP Helm is that Helm alone is a almost dead card. If you're facing creatures beat down, that helm you drew could be an Entreat to save yourself, given the other combo piece is not in play. Also, I find EF to be rarely useful. If I draw a Tutor with RiP in play, I almost always tutor for Helm, not EF, why wait when I can tutor for the win now?

There was one game in which I have RiP in play and Tutor in hand. I tried to EoT Clique opponent and he FoW. That's when I know I've won the game, I then Tutor, as suspected, he ran out of counter and I found my Helm. Another reason Clique is good, even in Rip-Helm build.

The usage of Moat or Humility is a separate topic, though most people would prefer Moat if they run Angel build, for the obvious synergy reason.

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Originally Posted by twndomn

I definitely respect your opinion on the matter. The problem with RiP is that it's a dead card in some Match-ups, i.e. Sneak and Show, Death and Taxes...etc., having Drawing a 2nd RiP is Not desirable. The other problem with RiP Helm is that Helm alone is a almost dead card. If you're facing creatures beat down, that helm you drew could be an Entreat to save yourself, given the other combo piece is not in play. Also, I find EF to be rarely useful. If I draw a Tutor with RiP in play, I almost always tutor for Helm, not EF, why wait when I can tutor for the win now?

There was one game in which I have RiP in play and Tutor in hand. I tried to EoT Clique opponent and he FoW. That's when I know I've won the game, I then Tutor, as suspected, he ran out of counter and I found my Helm. Another reason Clique is good, even in Rip-Helm build.

The usage of Moat or Humility is a separate topic, though most people would prefer Moat if they run Angel build, for the obvious synergy reason.

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Valid points. I'm certainly inclined to agree with Energy Field being... meh. While it has it's uses, I could see it being cut altogether.
Rest in Peace is something I can't see myself cutting locally; it hedges very well against my local meta. I can't see myself running less than 2 either simply in cases where they deal with one or may have the ability to interrupt my Helm combo.
Currently, Entreat has been the most cuttable card in my version, as it generally doesn't do much work. I could see myself cutting 2 Entreats and a Energy Field to run 3 maindeck Cliques instead, which would work well with my 2 maindeck Karakas. I think I am going to test that and see how it goes. I've played a Clique version for several months, so I feel confident with my ability to play the card and effectively evaluate it in my build.

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Originally Posted by mini1337s

Rest in Peace is something I can't see myself cutting locally; it hedges very well against my local meta. I can't see myself running less than 2 either simply in cases where they deal with one or may have the ability to interrupt my Helm combo.

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If it is a local meta choice then that's fine, but just be aware that if you take it to SCG or something bigger then you'll start noticing it to be much more dead weight. There's nothing wrong with running the 2 RIP and the Enlightened Tutor in the SB (or even leaving just the Tutor MD).

RiP is a valid metagame choice, but I think for the expected SCG meta its time has passed - and I say this as one of the huge RiP list supporters. With UWR Delver overtaking Canadian Thresh as the tempo deck of choice, the general value of maindeck graveyard hate is going down and I find myself looking for more general cards in most matchups. I'm even finally back on Snapcaster Mage for the first time in over a year. To make up for the missing ability to win quickly, I've moved my 3rd Entreat main before GP DC and have not looked back. I find most games much easier to close out now, and have not had issues with it clogging my hand if I mulligan reasonably (not I did change the 4th Terminus to a verdict to stay at 6 miracles in the deck).

This is where I'm at now:

4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Brianstorm
1 Ponder
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Spell Pierce

2 Counterspell
3 Counterbalance
1 Snapcaster Mage

3 Vendilion Clique
3 Entreat the Angels

3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Supreme Verdict

4 Force of Will

3 Terminus

2 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
4 Island
2 Plains
1 Karakas
1 Mystic Gate
4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Arid Mesa


Sideboard:
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Wear // Tear
2 Rest in Peace
2 Enlightened Tutor
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Pithing Needle
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Ethersworn Cannonist
2 Meddling Mage
1 Flusterstorm
1 Porphyry Nodes

I had Moat in the nodes slot for a while but it was not getting the job done and I wanted another cheap answer to tempo and TNN. Nodes has been great there.

I'm debating going back to Disenchant over Wear // Tear because I hate fetching out Volcanic Island vs UWR Delver to kill an equipment and opening myself up to Wasteland, and I've noticed a few others of us are seeing the same thing.

I run a similar list as alphastryk, but -1 Ponder + 1 Plains, -1 Entreat +1 Snapcaster. Echo the same sentiment he has.

The Disenchant vs Wear//Tear is an interesting one, I just wish there were more data for people here to examine. Currently there're no evidence to suggest one way or another.

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Originally Posted by alphastryk

I'm debating going back to Disenchant over Wear // Tear because I hate fetching out Volcanic Island vs UWR Delver to kill an equipment and opening myself up to Wasteland, and I've noticed a few others of us are seeing the same thing.

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That's why I opted for a Mountain in the SB. Having the option to safely cast all 4 REBs and the Wear/Tears is worth it.

Greetings

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Originally Posted by Einherjer

That's why I opted for a Mountain in the SB. Having the option to safely cast all 4 REBs and the Wear/Tears is worth it.

Greetings

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That makes a lot of sense and I'd likely be doing that or adding the Mountain to my maindeck again if I had that many red cards in the board, but I have never felt the need for that many blasts.

I keep wanting to try the basic mountain, but cracking a fetch against Delver with only 1 other land in play, to grab basic mountain just seems terrible.

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Originally Posted by Cipher

I keep wanting to try the basic mountain, but cracking a fetch against Delver with only 1 other land in play, to grab basic mountain just seems terrible.

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It really just depends on the situation you are in. Yeah, doing this doesn't feel good but having only 2 lands is never good, just never. And if you have Island Mountain instead of Island Plains it is fine as long as your removalspells you are going to cast cost R.

Greetings

I feel like I'm very rarely casting REB against tempo before I have a fairly stable mana base already. Even holding an REB, I feel pretty comfortable fetching two Islands and a Plains and then just waiting until I find another fetchland later in the game to use for my Red source. I don't think that having access to a basic Mountain really changes that. Most likely the first three lands that I'd ideally want to have against any Wasteland deck would still be two Islands and a Plains. This lets me cast every important colored spell for the early game against a tempo deck: Brainstorm, Pierce, Counterbalance, Swords, and Terminus (and RIP for RUG).

Past my third or fourth land drop, it doesn't really matter whether I get a Volcanic Island or a Mountain because 1) I am safely out of range of being Wastelanded out of the game, and 2) I am probably casting an REB in order to resolve a game-breaking spell anyways, so go ahead and Wasteland me, let's see you play from under a Counterbalance. If they can't Wasteland my 4th or 5th land because it is a Mountain instead of a Volcanic Island then that doesn't stop them from Wasting the next Tundra, Volcanic, Karakas, or Mystic Gate that I happen to draw. Either way, I can likely expect to be Wastelanded at least once or twice on my way to the ideal ~6 lands that I'd like in play by the end of a tempo game.

The point is that the color composition of my lands matters a whole lot more for the first three drops than the last three. Operating under ideal circumstances (access to a lot of basics), I do not want Mountain early because it doesn't cast Counterbalance (or Clique). Under less than ideal circumstances (very few basics), a Volcanic Island that I draw can at least cast Counterbalance. At worst, if I'm sitting on Island, Volcanic, Tundra and they draw Wasteland then 1) They cannot cut me off :u::u: and 2) perhaps they will mistakenly overvalue the Red source. Having Island, Mountain, Tundra not only makes their choice easy, but also guarantees we are cut off from both :w: and :u::u:.

Why I feel like the Disenchant verses Wear//Tear argument is slightly different than REB is because sometimes we do not have the luxury of sitting on our artifact removal until turn X like we can with REB. A SoFI or SoFF demands an answer as soon as we can produce one, and if that answer is required on turn 3 then I'm finding that I'd rather be fetching a Plains than a Volcanic (or a Mountain for that matter). If Enchantments (especially Choke) were more prevalent then we could talk, but if Wear//Tear is going to be a Shatter 90% of the time then I'd rather it be a Shatter that costs :1::w:.

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Originally Posted by Dzra

I feel like I'm very rarely casting REB against tempo before I have a fairly stable mana base already. Even holding an REB, I feel pretty comfortable fetching two Islands and a Plains and then just waiting until I find another fetchland later in the game to use for my Red source. I don't think that having access to a basic Mountain really changes that. Most likely the first three lands that I'd ideally want to have against any Wasteland deck would still be two Islands and a Plains. This lets me cast every important colored spell for the early game against a tempo deck: Brainstorm, Pierce, Counterbalance, Swords, and Terminus (and RIP for RUG).

Past my third or fourth land drop, it doesn't really matter whether I get a Volcanic Island or a Mountain because 1) I am safely out of range of being Wastelanded out of the game, and 2) I am probably casting an REB in order to resolve a game-breaking spell anyways, so go ahead and Wasteland me, let's see you play from under a Counterbalance. If they can't Wasteland my 4th or 5th land because it is a Mountain instead of a Volcanic Island then that doesn't stop them from Wasting the next Tundra, Volcanic, Karakas, or Mystic Gate that I happen to draw. Either way, I can likely expect to be Wastelanded at least once or twice on my way to the ideal ~6 lands that I'd like in play by the end of a tempo game.

The point is that the color composition of my lands matters a whole lot more for the first three drops than the last three. Operating under ideal circumstances (access to a lot of basics), I do not want Mountain early because it doesn't cast Counterbalance (or Clique). Under less than ideal circumstances (very few basics), a Volcanic Island that I draw can at least cast Counterbalance. At worst, if I'm sitting on Island, Volcanic, Tundra and they draw Wasteland then 1) They cannot cut me off :u::u: and 2) perhaps they will mistakenly overvalue the Red source. Having Island, Mountain, Tundra not only makes their choice easy, but also guarantees we are cut off from both :w: and :u::u:.

Why I feel like the Disenchant verses Wear//Tear argument is slightly different than REB is because sometimes we do not have the luxury of sitting on our artifact removal until turn X like we can with REB. A SoFI or SoFF demands an answer as soon as we can produce one, and if that answer is required on turn 3 then I'm finding that I'd rather be fetching a Plains than a Volcanic (or a Mountain for that matter). If Enchantments (especially Choke) were more prevalent then we could talk, but if Wear//Tear is going to be a Shatter 90% of the time then I'd rather it be a Shatter that costs :1::w:.

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I agree on the Disenchant over Wear/Tear. I suppose now that the prominent Delver deck has no Stifle the mana base wars aren't so prominent. I personally don't even board Blasts in against RUG, since I consider the real fight to be over your land drops, and Volcanic is just a liability. Of course, I have two Flusterstorms that I bring in.

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Originally Posted by Cipher

I agree on the Disenchant over Wear/Tear. I suppose now that the prominent Delver deck has no Stifle the mana base wars aren't so prominent.

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I've had more than one instance of needing to fetch a Volcanic Island using my last available land drop in order to Wear an incoming SoFI even though they already had Wasteland on board (against both UWR Delver as well as Bant). The Volcanic itself is not the liability, the problem is having to fetch it early and when you would really rather not.

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Originally Posted by Dzra

I've had more than one instance of needing to fetch a Volcanic Island using my last available land drop in order to Wear an incoming SoFI even though they already had Wasteland on board (against both UWR Delver as well as Bant). The Volcanic itself is not the liability, the problem is having to fetch it early and when you would really rather not.

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Yep - that's exactly what's come up for me. I have fused Wear and Tear exactly twice in the entire time I've played it, and I've been out a land for no reason twice in the last ~8 matches I've played. I'll be going back to Disenchant this week and I'll see how it goes.

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Originally Posted by Dzra

I feel like I'm very rarely casting REB against tempo before I have a fairly stable mana base already. Even holding an REB, I feel pretty comfortable fetching two Islands and a Plains and then just waiting until I find another fetchland later in the game to use for my Red source. I don't think that having access to a basic Mountain really changes that. Most likely the first three lands that I'd ideally want to have against any Wasteland deck would still be two Islands and a Plains. This lets me cast every important colored spell for the early game against a tempo deck: Brainstorm, Pierce, Counterbalance, Swords, and Terminus (and RIP for RUG).

Past my third or fourth land drop, it doesn't really matter whether I get a Volcanic Island or a Mountain because 1) I am safely out of range of being Wastelanded out of the game, and 2) I am probably casting an REB in order to resolve a game-breaking spell anyways, so go ahead and Wasteland me, let's see you play from under a Counterbalance. If they can't Wasteland my 4th or 5th land because it is a Mountain instead of a Volcanic Island then that doesn't stop them from Wasting the next Tundra, Volcanic, Karakas, or Mystic Gate that I happen to draw. Either way, I can likely expect to be Wastelanded at least once or twice on my way to the ideal ~6 lands that I'd like in play by the end of a tempo game.

The point is that the color composition of my lands matters a whole lot more for the first three drops than the last three. Operating under ideal circumstances (access to a lot of basics), I do not want Mountain early because it doesn't cast Counterbalance (or Clique). Under less than ideal circumstances (very few basics), a Volcanic Island that I draw can at least cast Counterbalance. At worst, if I'm sitting on Island, Volcanic, Tundra and they draw Wasteland then 1) They cannot cut me off :u::u: and 2) perhaps they will mistakenly overvalue the Red source. Having Island, Mountain, Tundra not only makes their choice easy, but also guarantees we are cut off from both :w: and :u::u:.

Why I feel like the Disenchant verses Wear//Tear argument is slightly different than REB is because sometimes we do not have the luxury of sitting on our artifact removal until turn X like we can with REB. A SoFI or SoFF demands an answer as soon as we can produce one, and if that answer is required on turn 3 then I'm finding that I'd rather be fetching a Plains than a Volcanic (or a Mountain for that matter). If Enchantments (especially Choke) were more prevalent then we could talk, but if Wear//Tear is going to be a Shatter 90% of the time then I'd rather it be a Shatter that costs :1::w:.

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About the basic mountain and the rebs;

Against RUG-delver I will no longer side in my ReB's because I will rarely fetch a mountain or a volcanic island anyway. Instead I opt to go Island, plains, Island to be able to go stoneforge/cb during the first turns.

However. Against URW-delver it's TOTALLY different. That deck is slower and doesn't pack stifle which is an enormous difference from RUG. Because the curve is rather flat I firmly belive that removing ALL counterbalances (together with i.e counterspell and force of will, which is pretty common) is the correct approach for miracles. Their decks is FAR less stacked with playables than for example RUG and as long as you can sweep every now and then you will end up in a spot where you have REB for their follow up TNN and/or to protect your jace. In this matchup a mountain is a must and without CB you don't have to go UU until very late.

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Originally Posted by Mackan

About the basic mountain and the rebs;

Against RUG-delver I will no longer side in my ReB's because I will rarely fetch a mountain or a volcanic island anyway. Instead I opt to go Island, plains, Island to be able to go stoneforge/cb during the first turns.

However. Against URW-delver it's TOTALLY different. That deck is slower and doesn't pack stifle which is an enormous difference from RUG. Because the curve is rather flat I firmly belive that removing ALL counterbalances (together with i.e counterspell and force of will, which is pretty common) is the correct approach for miracles. Their decks is FAR less stacked with playables than for example RUG and as long as you can sweep every now and then you will end up in a spot where you have REB for their follow up TNN and/or to protect your jace. In this matchup a mountain is a must and without CB you don't have to go UU until very late.

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makes no sense in removing cb. Spend a mass removal because one TNN is still a bad trade. I don't see why you would diminish the possibility of CB flipping a Clique to stop TNN from resolving.

Yeah, I agree. REB is obviously great against UWR, but I would never take out Counterbalance. Having CBTop online makes the matchup infinitely easier. I usually take out FoWs and Jaces against them.

evidently, Joe's most recent Miracle list has moved RiP to the SB, no surprise there, replacing them with 1 Snapcaster. He now has 2 blasts MD, more blasts in the SB, moves some StP to SB as well.

If he's on the forum, would be great if he could reiterate, though he most likely mentioned it in the streaming video.

I gave it some thoughts, and believe that's the trend right now. I am aware that BUG Delver won SCG Orlando, but the overall number of RUG and BUG are on the decline, the WUR Stoneblades and Esper Stoneblades are what's trendy right now. Like what he said in the video, as long as no early Dark Confidant, we should be fine. Interestingly enough, with the current meta, Flashback Blast using Snapcaster is such a key play, especially against TNN or Jace.

Have you guys test this?

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Originally Posted by twndomn

evidently, Joe's most recent Miracle list has moved RiP to the SB, no surprise there, replacing them with 1 Snapcaster. He now has 2 blasts MD, more blasts in the SB, moves some StP to SB as well.

If he's on the forum, would be great if he could reiterate, though he most likely mentioned it in the streaming video.

I gave it some thoughts, and believe that's the trend right now. I am aware that BUG Delver won SCG Orlando, but the overall number of RUG and BUG are on the decline, the WUR Stoneblades and Esper Stoneblades are what's trendy right now. Like what he said in the video, as long as no early Dark Confidant, we should be fine. Interestingly enough, with the current meta, Flashback Blast using Snapcaster is such a key play, especially against TNN or Jace.

Have you guys test this?

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Seemed pretty silly, running maindeck red blasts. It's not as if the payoff is some insane blowout victory; it's just an extra counterspell. And it's a stone cold blank against 6 of the top 16 decks from the last open:

http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=12653

I never liked Snapcaster in actual control decks. Joe only has 10 cards that can be flashed back, compared to the 13 or 14 that most of the Snapcaster builds have. It feels like a very late game card, especially when Brainstorm isn't a card you fire off turn 1. He replaced a Sword to Plowshares with it, but I think it's closer to a 4th Jace, really.

The only thing I can think of is that he's doing some intense meta-gaming. I wouldn't MD REBs at a big tournament, but I've definitely thought about it locally. Maybe it's a solid call for MTGO at the moment?

I'd also be interested to hear what people board out for the UWR Delver MU. I've been siding out FoWs and Jaces, but I really hate siding Jace out. Having all the removal seems good. Entreat seems good. Cliques seem good. Is Jace really the right call?

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Originally Posted by Cipher

Seemed pretty silly, running maindeck red blasts. It's not as if the payoff is some insane blowout victory; it's just an extra counterspell. And it's a stone cold blank against 6 of the top 16 decks from the last open:

http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=12653

I never liked Snapcaster in actual control decks. Joe only has 10 cards that can be flashed back, compared to the 13 or 14 that most of the Snapcaster builds have. It feels like a very late game card, especially when Brainstorm isn't a card you fire off turn 1. He replaced a Sword to Plowshares with it, but I think it's closer to a 4th Jace, really.

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I also disliked SCM for a while, but eventually changed my mind. Maxing out virtual BSs is key to ship back stranded Miracles, plus adding 1-2 CMC2 spells enhances the CB curve.

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Originally Posted by klaus

I also disliked SCM for a while, but eventually changed my mind. Maxing out virtual BSs is key to ship back stranded Miracles, plus adding 1-2 CMC2 spells enhances the CB curve.

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I'm trying out 1 Predict and 1 Impulse in those slots. I haven't been drawing them enough to know whether they warrant their spot, but I've been liking them so far. I think Snapcaster -> Brainstorm is probably the sequence I would anticipate using the most, for the reason you just mentioned. Watching Joe's stream, I worry about having another Venser-like card that is often dead early game and not game ending like Jace or Entreat even when it lands.

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Originally Posted by Dzra

I'd also be interested to hear what people board out for the UWR Delver MU. I've been siding out FoWs and Jaces, but I really hate siding Jace out. Having all the removal seems good. Entreat seems good. Cliques seem good. Is Jace really the right call?

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I board out:

2 Spell Pierce
4 Force of Will
1 Swords to Plowshares

for:

1 Venser
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Supreme Verdict
2 Explosives
1 Enlightened Tutor

Like you said, all removal seems good. My philosophy with fighting tempo in any format is to attack the weakest point in their deck; their low threat density. If the game goes long enough, you win anyway. Cards like Spell Pierce help aggressively force through threats, but if it's not directly stopping a threat I'm worried about, I'm not going to keep it in over more removal.

I'm on the fence about whether or not I run the third Entreat in this matchup. 4x Spell Pierce is ridiculous, but maybe I'm overreacting. I feel like some of the value is lost when True Name can just attack right through it, and Batterskull often beats it. A match I had against UWR a while back came down to racing, and 2 tokens couldn't get there.

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Originally Posted by Cipher

A match I had against UWR a while back came down to racing, and 2 tokens couldn't get there.

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Which may have happened due to the fact that you board out one copy of Swords to Plowshares. Why would you ever do that against any tempo/creaturedeck?

Greetings

Hey all,

I am looking for advice in regards to my UW Control list. I went 6-2-1 at GP DC with a list similar to it and I wanted to get further input for ideas:

2 Stoneforge mystic

4 Brainstorm
2 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
2 Spell Pierce
4 Swords to Plowshares

1 Supreme Verdict
2 Terminus

1 Detention Sphere
3 Counterbalance
1 Humility

4 Sensei's Diving Top
2 Thopter Foundry
1 Sword of the Meek
1 Batterskull

1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
3 Jace, TMS

1 Karakas
1 Academy Ruins
1 Mountain
4 Islands
2 Plains
3 Tundras
1 Volcanic
4 Flooded Strand
3 Scalding Tarn
2 Arid Mesa

Sideboard:
1 Blood Moon
1 Humility (was Moat at GP)
2 Rest in Peace
1 Terminus
2 Divert
3 REB
2 Flusterstorm
1 Wear/Tear (was disenchant at GP)
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Spell Pierce

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Originally Posted by Cipher

I board out:

2 Spell Pierce
4 Force of Will
1 Swords to Plowshares

for:

1 Venser
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Supreme Verdict
2 Explosives
1 Enlightened Tutor

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Why the Venser? If you are boarding out a Plow presumably because it doesn't hit TNN then the same would apply to Venser. It was along this same logic that lead me to board out Jace (he can't protect himself from a TNN or creature with SoFI). I suppose Venser is really good against Batterskull or non-TNN, non-SoFI equipped creatures, but that seems potentially narrow. Maybe with all their soft countermagic Entreat is the cut, but I feel like the potential to cast Entreat and reverse the clock posed by their TNN seems valuable.

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Originally Posted by Einherjer

Which may have happened due to the fact that you board out one copy of Swords to Plowshares. Why would you ever do that against any tempo/creaturedeck?

Greetings

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I just made that decision after watching Joe's boarding against UWR. Haven't actually played like this, yet. I was thinking that Delver and Stoneforge are the 8 targets and, although you have to get rid of a Mystic once it resolves, the trade is still not in you favor, and if they drop Batterskull you need two removal spells to stop it. It may just be the wrong decision, since you can kill the Mystic before it ever plays the Batterskull. I already run a full playset of Swords and I was running out of room, but one of the Counterspells is probably just better to cut. I think I'll try -2 Counterspell, +1 Entreat, +1 Swords.

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Originally Posted by Dzra

Why the Venser? If you are boarding out a Plow presumably because it doesn't hit TNN then the same would apply to Venser. It was along this same logic that lead me to board out Jace (he can't protect himself from a TNN or creature with SoFI). I suppose Venser is really good against Batterskull or non-TNN, non-SoFI equipped creatures, but that seems potentially narrow. Maybe with all their soft countermagic Entreat is the cut, but I feel like the potential to cast Entreat and reverse the clock posed by their TNN seems valuable.

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Venser can bounce sword -> block. Even if they have a True Name, the Sword is the big issue, not the 3/1 unblockable. I admit that it's not the greatest, but I've done it enough times that I like it in that matchup.

I used to cut 2 Jaces against RUG, on account of Nimble Mongoose, but I feel like that deck has such a terrible late game that you don't really need a card like Jace. Entreat, RIP, Counterbalance, etc. just lock it out the game, for way less mana. UWR feels more resilient to me but I can still see cutting Jace. The lack of Stifle really cuts down on the power of the soft counters, though; I don't feel like Jace's mana cost is as much an issue as it was against RUG.

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Originally Posted by alphastryk

Yep - that's exactly what's come up for me. I have fused Wear and Tear exactly twice in the entire time I've played it, and I've been out a land for no reason twice in the last ~8 matches I've played. I'll be going back to Disenchant this week and I'll see how it goes.

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You still have Enlightened Tutor in the board, right? Why not Seal of disenchant?

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Originally Posted by Cipher

Venser can bounce sword -> block.

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Yeah, I can see how that's not the worst.

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Originally Posted by Cipher

UWR feels more resilient to me but I can still see cutting Jace. The lack of Stifle really cuts down on the power of the soft counters, though; I don't feel like Jace's mana cost is as much an issue as it was against RUG.

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Well, both finishers have to play around Pierce, but my thinking is also that Entreat doesn't have to play around REBs and is still good when there is a TNN on deck. Regardless, I'm definitely happy to see Stifle on the decline.

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Originally Posted by phazonmutant

You still have Enlightened Tutor in the board, right? Why not Seal of Cleansing?

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If it's the same reason as me, I used to run Seal of Cleansing but then cut it for Wear//Tear when I added Snapcasters. Now I'm cutting the Wear//Tear for the Disenchant, but the ability to flash it back still seems really good.

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Originally Posted by Cipher

I just made that decision after watching Joe's boarding against UWR.

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I would hesitate to copy anything I am doing right now. Playing around with the numbers and placement of Swords is something I am trying. It's only been a handful of matches so far and it's not refined.

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Originally Posted by oarsman

I would hesitate to copy anything I am doing right now. Playing around with the numbers and placement of Swords is something I am trying. It's only been a handful of matches so far and it's not refined.

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Oh, trust me, I'm definitely not copying. My list is pretty far off from even your more recent lists. But I've boarded out some number of Swords against Shardless before on account of the scary part of their creatures being the ETB (Tarmogoyf withholding), and your comment on Stoneforge v. Swords stuck with me. Actively boarding out Swords was a mistake, though.

Venser seems like the worst card you can have against a Tempodeck. He is not that great or gamebreaking, costs 4 mana, therefore is vulnerable to Daze and i expect my 4cc spells against Tempo to win the game, like Jace does.

Also note that removing a SFM in this matchup, is like removing Batterskull. 5 mana is a lot for UWR and when they have 5 mana you should be in pretty good shape.

I never get guys that keep on playing inferior versions of Miracles. Best versions of Miracle are Flashversions with Snapcaster and/or (best both^^) Vendilion Clique. If you play another version there are only 4 reasons: 1) you think that Miracle is too powerful and want to dilute it for your opponent so that he can have more fun.
2) half of the guys at your local shop are playing Dredge, RUG Delver and Lands. 3) you like it. you like the freewin Blood Moon, Helm Combo etc. gives you against bad opponents. 4) you are not good enough for a Flash version. The flashguys give you more options, especially if you play 1-2 Ponder, which makes it more difficult to play fast and correct, if you're not experienced.

If you want to play the most powerful and consistent version of Miracles and have trust in your playskill there is no reason to play any other version than a flash version at a big tournament with a normal meta.

Can someone offer me a well-founded reasoning why most people play Counterbalance in the MD? I'm not implying that it's bad but just curious about the deeper rationale about it. I know that the obvious explanation appears to be the combo matchup even though I'm of the conviction that MD Pierce/CS/FoW/Snapcaster/Clique with the additional hate from the SB can suffice most of the times. While there are certainly decks that still fold to a active Counterbalance-Lock (e.g. RUG), I think that everyone is aware that it's considerably less effective against a bigger part of the format, especially since the common Miracles list actually don't have a suitable CMC distribution within their cards, so CB isn't even that reliable sometimes.

So please enlighten me why most of you are keen on Counterbalance.

Personally I reason it's because the deck is slow and don't want to miss landdrops. Against a fast strategy (often with a low curve) you need to generate card advantage. CB does that for you and without it you will have 5 lands in play, a jace in the graveyard and and opponent with 2 lands and a 3/3 mongoose killing you. Other cards to consider if you want to play control but not counterbalance would be standstill and ancestral vision for example.

Between Jace, Brainstorm, and Top, you have a huge card selection. Against less permanent-based decks it's an absolute beating, and against permanent decks you get to stop additional stuff hitting the board whilst you find a way to deal with what's on board. I feel our mana costs are actually excellent for it. Plenty of 1's, and fetchable 2's and 3's with Enlightened Tutor. I always played D-Sphere and Thassa at 3, with RiP, E-Field, and additional CB's at 2. I also had a Helm at 4, almost purely for the Enlightened Tutor -> Counter your Jace -> represent a lethal combo. You can then top your Forces with Brainstorm to counter Forces and then Top them back to actually cast them if necessary, and even have Terminus at 6 to counter random Titans from Nic Fit, Fireblast from Mono Red, and whatever else.

CB is super strong in a lot of MU's, and I basically never took it out, as it was just free wins against most of the field a lot of the time.

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Originally Posted by Erdvermampfa

I think that everyone is aware that it's considerably less effective against a bigger part of the format, especially since the common Miracles list actually don't have a suitable CMC distribution within their cards, so CB isn't even that reliable sometimes.

So please enlighten me why most of you are keen on Counterbalance.

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Only a twisted meta-game, like your local players are full of Goblins, would taking out CB becomes an option on the table.


I believe it's time to revisit Porphyry Nodes. 1. It can deal with TNN. 2. Say you go second, your opponent would tap out for Stoneforge finding Batterskull turn 2, quite a lot. When it's your turn, play 2nd land and Nodes, now you present an interesting dilemma for your opponent. If he leaves BS in his hand, then that BS is at the risk of getting Clique away. If he puts it in play, it'll get to connect once and lose the token. Feels like that card has got 50% of the format covered.

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Originally Posted by phazonmutant

You still have Enlightened Tutor in the board, right? Why not Seal of disenchant?

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Originally Posted by Dzra

...
If it's the same reason as me, I used to run Seal of Cleansing but then cut it for Wear//Tear when I added Snapcasters. Now I'm cutting the Wear//Tear for the Disenchant, but the ability to flash it back still seems really good.

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Well, I think I'd be on Disenchant over Seal of Cleansing regardless of Snapcatser since the tutors don't usually come in in the same matches the Disenchant does.

At the end of the day though, I feel like my Disenchant experiment failed and I'll be going back to Wear // Tear and just start playing a Mountain main again.

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Originally Posted by twndomn

Only a twisted meta-game, like your local players are full of Goblins, would taking out CB becomes an option on the table.


I believe it's time to revisit Porphyry Nodes. 1. It can deal with TNN. 2. Say you go second, your opponent would tap out for Stoneforge finding Batterskull turn 2, quite a lot. When it's your turn, play 2nd land and Nodes, now you present an interesting dilemma for your opponent. If he leaves BS in his hand, then that BS is at the risk of getting Clique away. If he puts it in play, it'll get to connect once and lose the token. Feels like that card has got 50% of the format covered.

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Counterbalance lets you setup to wipe the board and keep new things off too, so once you get ahead it's very hard to lose. The whole reason counterbalance is good is that decks in Legacy have compressed mana curves and the numbers line up fairly often already. This is especially true for Tempo and Combo, which are a large portion of the metagame right now.

Porphyry Nodes has been amazing for me lately - it's easy to resolve through Pierce / Daze and always kills something while not caring about TNN or Nimble Mongoose.

Here's where I'm at with the basic mountain plan:


4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Brianstorm
1 Ponder
2 Spell Pierce
4 Swords to Plowshares

2 Counterspell
3 Counterbalance
1 Snapcaster Mage

3 Entreat the Angels
3 Vendilion Clique

3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Supreme Verdict

4 Force of Will

3 Terminus

4 Island
2 Plains
1 Mountain
4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Arid Mesa
1 Karakas
1 Mystic Gate
2 Tundra
1 Volcanic Island

Sideboard:
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast
2 Meddling Mage
1 Ethersworn Cannonist
2 Enlightened Tutor
1 Pithing Needle
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Porphyry Nodes
2 Rest in Peace
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Wear // Tear

So I was thinking how Spirit of the Labyrinth is likely to be played in Death and Taxes and that got me thinking about how hilariously good their Spirit makes our Vendilion Cliques.

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Originally Posted by alphastryk

Well, I think I'd be on Disenchant over Seal of Cleansing regardless of Snapcatser since the tutors don't usually come in in the same matches the Disenchant does.

At the end of the day though, I feel like my Disenchant experiment failed and I'll be going back to Wear // Tear and just start playing a Mountain main again.

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How come?

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Originally Posted by Dzra

So I was thinking how Spirit of the Labyrinth is likely to be played in Death and Taxes and that got me thinking about how hilariously good their Spirit makes our Vendilion Cliques.

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Heh. Yeah, I'd wanna see that happen for sure. :laugh:
Might still be a problem overall, because of brainstorm, jace, ponder if you play it. We will see.

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Originally Posted by Erdvermampfa

Can someone offer me a well-founded reasoning why most people play Counterbalance in the MD? I'm not implying that it's bad but just curious about the deeper rationale about it. I know that the obvious explanation appears to be the combo matchup even though I'm of the conviction that MD Pierce/CS/FoW/Snapcaster/Clique with the additional hate from the SB can suffice most of the times. While there are certainly decks that still fold to a active Counterbalance-Lock (e.g. RUG), I think that everyone is aware that it's considerably less effective against a bigger part of the format, especially since the common Miracles list actually don't have a suitable CMC distribution within their cards, so CB isn't even that reliable sometimes.

So please enlighten me why most of you are keen on Counterbalance.

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Jace, Brainstorm, Top are all good with Miracles. They are also all good with Counterbalance. On the Surface, Miracles (or at least Terminus) and Counterbalance don't play well together, but the effects complement each other well. It just fits in very well, once you already have the rest of the decklist down. The deck is as much a 'Jace deck' or 'Sensei's Divining Top deck' as it is a 'Counterbalance deck', if that makes sense. For the same reason, you don't need to lockout people with it. Consider that if, over the course of a single game, you counter something like 3 spells with it, it has actually provided crazy value already - and sometimes, it does in fact just lock people out of the game.

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Originally Posted by bryanzoll

Hey all,

I am looking for advice in regards to my UW Control list. I went 6-2-1 at GP DC with a list similar to it and I wanted to get further input for ideas:
[Deck]

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Well done! Oh, and welcome. :smile:

Was there anything in particular you struggled with, or anything you felt was optimal? It's hard to provide feedback without knowing where you are coming from.
Curious: Did you like the thopter combo? I know that others have tried it, and been less than satisfied with it.