[Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

Wouldn't call it that way, since there are still all SB Engines as well as the natural spellchain available, which appears a bit underused in general.

I'm just willing to remove 1 Ad Nauseam as kill in the face of Pierce/Daze/FoW to add 2 biz-spells in the form of EtW facing mostly Stifle and optional 2-3 sweepers no one really mulligans into in fear of AN and the Tendrils-kill.

I can see myself doing this for the sake of testing

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I agree, I think Bryant is getting a little ahead of himself assuming that A) opponent's know our SB plan and B) opponent's are prepared to SB in or keep SBed in otherwise worthless cards in the event we don't SB at all game 2 or SB back out game 3. It's kind of the ol' "do I keep Swords of Plowshares in the MD for Xantid Swarm" argument, except Pyroclasm and Golgari Charm are a hell of a lot worse than Lightning Bolt or Abrupt Decay because they have no general application otherwise.

I'm pretty happy with SBing out Ad Nauseam and just playing 3xEmpty the Warrens MD, I also think it's going to become increasingly important to SB in the 4th Cabal Therapy with 3xEmpty the Warrens and I typically find myself cutting back on Silence. I really think Xantid Swarm is lack luster, mainly because Tropic Island is terrible, and Carpet of Flowers suffers from the same problem.

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

Side:

3 Xantid Swarm
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Cabal Therapy
1 Telemin Performance
1 Grapeshot
3 Empty the Warrens
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Past in Flames
1 Diminishing Returns

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I would go:
-3 Decay, -1 Swarm
+3 Chain, +1 discard spell
Chain is just faster and more versatile.

Last tourney I played with a second Empty on side and beat Canadian Thresh. I'm not sure we need a third.

Are there enough creatureleas decks that playing Telemin Performance becomes better than Bribery vs the bevy of Griselbrand decks? The former is a win vs a smaller subset than the latter.

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Originally Posted by Koby

Are there enough creatureleas decks that playing Telemin Performance becomes better than Bribery vs the bevy of Griselbrand decks? The former is a win vs a smaller subset than the latter.

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I'm kind of going back and forth between the two, the only problem I've found with Telemin Performance is that it's slightly unreliable vs Reanimator if you land on Elesh Norn etc. and Bribery is clearly better vs Oops, No Lands compared to Telemin Performance being clearly better vs Storm.

It probably doesn't matter a whole lot, Bribery is going to be more consistent in the "guaranteed to win now off Griselbranned" department.

Telemin against Reanimator or Sneak&Show is probably still 65% win at least. If you miss on grisselbrand and land into Iona or Emrakul there is a chance they cannot answer back.

Quick meta calculation using MTGpulse.com

Telemin vs TES (175 Top16s since RTR)
Telemin vs ANT (120 Top16s since RTR)
Telemin vs Dream Halls (98 Top16s since RTR)
Telemin vs High Tide (55 Top16s since RTR)
Bribery or Telemin vs Show and Tell (355 Top16s since RTR)
Bribery or Telemin vs Reanimator (218 Top16s since RTR)
Bribery vs MUD (53 Top16s since RTR)
Bribery vs 12 Post (28 Top16s since RTR)
Bribery vs All Spells (24 Top16s since RTR)

Telemin score: 448 at 100%, 573 at 65%
Bribery score: 678 at 100%

To me it looks like Bribery may be better in certain local metas or an SCG invitational, but during the swiss of a deep tournament i would want telemin.

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Originally Posted by BrettF

Bryant,
What would you side out if you are bringing in Carpet/Carpet/Trop or Carpet/Carpet/Trop/Therapy VS Delver?

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-1 Chrome Mox, -1 Infernal Tutor, -1 Ponder.

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Originally Posted by Final Fortune

I agree, I think Bryant is getting a little ahead of himself assuming that A) opponent's know our SB plan and B) opponent's are prepared to SB in or keep SBed in otherwise worthless cards in the event we don't SB at all game 2 or SB back out game 3. It's kind of the ol' "do I keep Swords of Plowshares in the MD for Xantid Swarm" argument, except Pyroclasm and Golgari Charm are a hell of a lot worse than Lightning Bolt or Abrupt Decay because they have no general application otherwise.

I'm pretty happy with SBing out Ad Nauseam and just playing 3xEmpty the Warrens MD, I also think it's going to become increasingly important to SB in the 4th Cabal Therapy with 3xEmpty the Warrens and I typically find myself cutting back on Silence. I really think Xantid Swarm is lack luster, mainly because Tropic Island is terrible, and Carpet of Flowers suffers from the same problem.

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I have opponents that bring in answers to Goblins all the time. Maybe Europe is a little different, but my opponents are certainly prepared.

Have you played at all with Tropical Island? The additional land is awesome across more than one match-up and isn't always there to tap for a green.

@Asthereal:
There are, by far, too many Miracles in Europe to cut Decay from my SB

@Koby:
North Europe loves combo and while TP isn't guaranteed to hit Griselbrand, it offers more flexibility in combo-matchups, as you can use it against High Tide, storm and OmniTell. Hitting an Iona, Ashen Rider, Titan or Emrakul isn't quite bad, is it?

@Answering EtW:
It was stated that Zealous Persecution and Golgari Charm will rise to power sole because of the TNN and were everywhere at the BoM. Everyone boards some sweepers for the Goblins in Europe.

@MB Trop
The 13 land always felt nice, no matter the colors. I'm just in fear of an increasing realiance on green mana and if you want to add that 13th Land in the MB for casting SB cards, those land might be better a Rainbow instead then.

@Final Fortune
It's not a bad thing that Bryant want to prevent blind spots in the deck. I just had a similar discussion with my mate and fellow Sourcer Holly about the topic yesterday afternoon as he suggested at least one Hull Breach to run to have outs after a dropped Leyline, but having to resolve a Wish for a 2cc sorcery feels like a losing Position regardless, that's why I let it be. Boarding in the last remaining Therapy sure looks delicious. Testing will tell, if those matchups don't want a wishable discard instead or if engines + Kill are enough in the Board

Few additions:

I only bring in chain of vapor vs a deck with non leyline hate. I found AN->empty+silence is pretty reliable vs the leyline combo decks. I could see going down to 1 since it doesn't deal with vial or aven mindcensor problems and that's a matchup I want it in.

Extra empties are not strong against the field. Goblin hate is at an all time high and people still believe stifle is good vs the deck. Little sense in making their dead cards better and making our AN worse which is pretty good. If you are going to have empty + therapy in your opener, it's stronger than say IT+therapy, cantrip+therapy, or carpet+therapy but those "alternate cards" often give you a good shot of winning the game. Empty plays pretty poorly with the best cards in our deck on several levels and is a severe liability past the explosive turn 1. If I was going to win die rolls all day, I would be more inclined to be on the empty plan to be faster than stifle. Frankly, that's not reliable.

I'm currently running 2 therapy 1 seize/ 1 therapy 1 seize. I've been boarding in the seize leaving the therapy to be wished for since seize is better post board main and therapy to wish for. This probably isn't optimal and requires streamlining, but I don't see a way to beat counters and bears in a reasonable fashion.

3 Chrome mox is a necessity.

Curious on lightning bolt being an option. In matchups you want it, it's exclusively bad vs miracles because its not decay. However, it can kill a lodestone golem for what it's worth. It's unlikely that mini tendrils/grapeshot/pif with bolt will ever come up as I've haven't had to do that recently.

Is telemin actually good? I really doubt we need help in any combo matchup aside from omni tell which you can only turn 1-2 the telemin reliably and they still have leyline. I think leaving the matchups to the strength of silence and swarm to win these. Reanimator is a garbage matchup anyway and if telemin was a win 100% of time we could reconsider.

Thanks for reading, Mario

Hahahahaha, looks like peeps spotted me on FB. :)

Will probably send out a few requests myself. Don't wonder ;)

Following on from my post at the beginning of the month (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...l=1#post762506), this is my current list:

//Card Selection (12)
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe

//Tutor (8)
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Burning Wish

//Tutor Target (2)
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Ad Nauseam

//Disruption (7)
4 Silence
2 Cabal Therapy
1 Thoughtseize

//Ritual Mana (8)
4 Dark Ritual
4 Rite of Flame

//Artifact Mana (11)
4 Lion’s Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
3 Chrome Mox

//Land (12)
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
2 Flooded Strand
1 Polluted Delta
4 Gemstone Mine
2 City of Brass

//Sideboard (15)
1 Tropical Island
2 Xantid Swarm
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Carpet of Flowers
2 Chain of Vapor
1 Cabal Therapy
1 Grapeshot
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Past in Flames
1 Diminishing Returns

I still find the Tropical Island low-impact, but with even more green (Carpet of Flowers) in the sideboard I think it's necessary.

I didn't get to use the 3rd Xantid Swarm often enough to warrant its spot which is why there is 2, but frustratingly, when I do get to use Xantid Swarm it's great and I feel like I want the three. I think the decision between 2/3 is a meta-game call.

The split between Thoughtseize/Cabal Therapy between maindeck and sideboard is still up in the air, but if one is better, it is marginally so. I think our efforts are best focused elsewhere.

I need more actual physical play with this list before I can come to any complete conclusions.

Mario, you might underestimate the postboard-games against Tempo where you have to fight through FoW, Daze, Pierce, Snare, Flusterstorm and Wasteland (not to talk about subtypes with black or white) while facing a clock. Unlike AN, EtW is cheaper to cast and has kind of a protection from counterspells other than Flusterstorm and Stifle making it an option before several of their counterspells are online and annoy the hell outta your attempts to go for AN

Some thoughts on the recent discussion with additional EtWs and the Grinding Station playstyle (there may be flaws in it...just brainstorming at work):

1) ToA > EtW in multiples: you usually start to aim for a kill around turn 3 with Grinding Station. ToA gives you life and does its damage on the spot. The extra life might be important in longer games against Delver and Bolts, while Goyfs and Goose can be chump blocked by EtW on the other hand. (Edited for clarity)

2) Basics might be needed for this playstyle because you often just do your landdrops and try to play 8 vs 7 in your killturn making nonbasics a problem (Jona even wanted to add a third basic to his deck as it is crucial if you want the tempo decks start which might be reasonable in this kind of playstyle).

3) EtW suffers to mass removal (cards I am happy to see in my opponents hands while playing ANT or Grinding Station)

4) EtW has a very good synergy with Cabal Therapy and every Dredge-Pilot knows how good flashbacking Therapies is :)

5) EtW wins against Leyline of Sancity without help though it weakens Cabal Therapy alot.

I like the idea behind Grinding Station alot which is why I mentioned I will test Jonas deck with the Grinding Station Plan postboard. I also like the idea of multiple EtW against Tempo. I am just not sure if it works out well for TES overcommiting in a Grinding Station Plan. I am eager to hear about your test results though Lemnear :)

Greetings Mindlash

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Originally Posted by Mindlash

Some thoughts on the recent discussion with additional EtWs and the Grinding Station playstyle (there may be flaws in it...just brainstorming at work):

1) ToA > EtW in multiples: you usually start to aim for a kill around turn 3 with Grinding Station. ToA gives you life and does its damage on the spot. The extra life might be important in longer games against Delver and Bolts...the rest can be chump blocked by EtW.

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So you plan on going of 1 time with ToA, then with EtW to chumpblock and then AGAIN with ToA for the kill? Ambitious.
You can spit out some token to go the distance, but a single ToA for 14, 16, 18 won't be enough (well ok the one for 18 probably will be if they fetched 2 times) but it doesn't matter if they're at 4 or 20.. We're talking about 2 slots.. not 3 for 4 copies of ToA and some more PiF. You can't adopt the Grinding Station playstile with that few sideboard slots.

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Originally Posted by Mindlash

2) Basics might be needed for this playstyle because you often just do your landdrops and try to play 8 vs 7 in your killturn making nonbasics a problem (Jona even wanted to add a third basic to his deck as it is crucial if you want the tempo decks start which might be reasonable in this kind of playstyle).

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Third basic? We're not even playing 2.. nor even 1.. are you in the wrong thread? Maybe you're looking for ANT? (Or PNT or however they want to be called these days.)
Edit: Missread your sentence. I don't think anyone will try out to board in 2-3 Basics + 2-3 EtW for the tempo matchup.

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Originally Posted by Mindlash

3) EtW suffers to mass removal (cards I am happy to see in my opponents hands while playing ANT or Grinding Station)

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Fair enough and the subdamage of Persecution/Charms we talked above. Then again, they play how many mass removal and how many Spell Pierce, Daze, Force (Counterspell) to ruin your day if you try to go off with Ad Nauseam?

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Originally Posted by Mindlash

5) EtW wins against Leyline of Sancity without help though it weakens Cabal Therapy alot.

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Most decks with Leyline we fear are combo decks, EtW WILL need help (Silence Walk) to win, one can't allways depend on that and I wouldn't board it EtW 2 + 3 versus SnT anyway so that point is kinda mood.


All in all im pretty positive that one can't board into Grinding Station from T.E.S.
If I misinterpreted some of your statements and you were solely talking about the view of Grinding Station on the tempo MU and not about storm going into Grinding Stations (point 1 as example) I'm sorry.

Grinding Station? Really?

Anyway, I forgot to add this to my above post:

Regarding the multiples of Empty the Warrens - I've tried it in the past and I feel like it's a trap. Increasing your chance to draw it against the tempo decks is a sound theory, but in practice there's not that much value from it.

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Originally Posted by Holly

So you plan on going of 1 time with ToA, then with EtW to chumpblock and then AGAIN with ToA for the kill? Ambitious.
You can spit out some token to go the distance, but a single ToA for 14, 16, 18 won't be enough (well ok the one for 18 probably will be if they fetched 2 times) but it doesn't matter if they're at 4 or 20.. We're talking about 2 slots.. not 3 for 4 copies of ToA and some more PiF. You can't adopt the Grinding Station playstile with that few sideboard slots.

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Yeah I problably did not write what I meant to say. It is easily misinterpreted in the way you did :/ I will fix that afterwards.
What I meant was: ToA is stronger than EtW in multiples. I know you can chumpblock with goblins but Delvers and Bolts are still threatening. Tendrils on the other hand gives you life which can be more valuable because it is not unusual to finish RUG with two mini Tendrils with Grinding Station. It also wins / deals damage the turn you cast it which leaves less room for interactions. Tendrils into Empty into Tendrils is pretty ambitious I'll admit that ;)

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Third basic? We're not even playing 2.. nor even 1.. are you in the wrong thread? Maybe you're looking for ANT? (Or PNT or however they want to be called these days.)
Edit: Missread your sentence. I don't think anyone will try out to board in 2-3 Basics + 2-3 EtW for the tempo matchup.

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Yeah it is the same issue again. I am well aware this isn't the ANT or Grinding Station thread. I am just comparing Grinding Station to Lemnear's idea of playing more stormspells. And in Grinding Station you just drop lands against RUG until you assembled your winning hand and play 8 vs 7 on them. I know there are no basics in TES nor do I want to suggest some. I just think it might not play out as well as it does for Grinding Station.

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Fair enough and the subdamage of Persecution/Charms we talked above. Then again, they play how many mass removal and how many Spell Pierce, Daze, Force (Counterspell) to ruin your day if you try to go off with Ad Nauseam?

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There will be more removal in their boards due to TNN. And I am not saying the 4 EtW plan won't work. It is just a weakness to consider. As in all of the other points I am just brainstorming the differences of Leamnear's 4 EtW plan to ANTs 3 - 4 Tendrils plan. It is not that it is unplayable overall. The synergy with Therapy is very strong which I also mentioned.

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Most decks with Leyline we fear are combo decks, EtW WILL need help (Silence Walk) to win, one can't allways depend on that and I wouldn't board it EtW 2 + 3 versus SnT anyway so that point is kinda mood.

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You are right on this. I was just comparing the cards without context here which doesn't to anything in real magic.

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All in all im pretty positive that one can't board into Grinding Station from T.E.S.
If I misinterpreted some of your statements and you were solely talking about the view of Grinding Station on the tempo MU and not about storm going into Grinding Stations (point 1 as example) I'm sorry.

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As I stated in my points (hopefully ^^) I also think the Grinding Station idea works better with an ANT shell in my opinion. I am eager to see some of Lemnear's test results though. Playing more stormspells was lots of fun against RUG in the past. But another problem I see in this concept for both decks is the fact that it works best for RUG while other tempo decks like BUG are not that easily played 8 vs 7 against...if at all.

I guess you misinterpreted me but I am not innocent on that :) Writing here while working is not alway the best idea especially if it is not your native language :D
My intention was just a brainstormed comparision of Lemnear's and Final Fortune's suggested sideboard on that idea with an existing model of the storm archtype that utilizes a similar idea.

Mfg Mindlash

Edit:

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Originally Posted by vercadium

Grinding Station? Really?

Anyway, I forgot to add this to my above post:

Regarding the multiples of Empty the Warrens - I've tried it in the past and I feel like it's a trap. Increasing your chance to draw it against the tempo decks is a sound theory, but in practice there's not that much value from it.

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Well I was regarding to the multiple EtW too. I just called it Grinding Station like Lemnear because of the similar gameplan against RUG.

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Originally Posted by Leamnear

Having 1-2 additional copies of EtW in the SB to board in those in a deck with 4 CT in the 75 is something I have to take a closer look at to mimic the gameplan of Grinding Station.

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Sorry for causing the confusion by mentioning Grinding Station or giving some the picture of playing the 8-vs.-7-game.

Just to set things straight: i wanted to dump my hand T1/T2 more reliable (as you notice by the return of the 3rd Mox) and pushing into the red Zone while drawing cards per turn to repeat the goblin assault off a second EtW if needed, which was all the reason i refered to Grinding Station which does the same with ToA.

Maybe im missing something here, but i believe the multiple empty plan fails if it isnt done on turn 1, unless you have therapy which lets you go off turn 2. This means you really need either a hand that can beat force if the line uses a tutor or you need lotus petal. On a turn 2 basis, you're now open to stifle+Counters lines. I'd put the likelihood of having the winning hands in these scenarios at less than 50%. I cant justify a plan that requires extensive sb slots that has such a % of success. Im interested to hear more on the numbers side.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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Originally Posted by mario91234

Maybe im missing something here, but i believe the multiple empty plan fails if it isnt done on turn 1, unless you have therapy which lets you go off turn 2. This means you really need either a hand that can beat force if the line uses a tutor or you need lotus petal. On a turn 2 basis, you're now open to stifle+Counters lines. I'd put the likelihood of having the winning hands in these scenarios at less than 50%. I cant justify a plan that requires extensive sb slots that has such a % of success. Im interested to hear more on the numbers side.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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I just noticed that the gameplan with AN is insanely hard to execute against tempo atm, so Bryant and me just threw ideas in the ring with a different approach which is (for my part) altering the usual gameplan against tempo-subtypes with the same tools as I'm planning to battle hatebears (comes in handy that UWr run both, the tempo-package and heatebears), therefore I consider EtW's doing a double-duty.

I will test the various approaches during the next days or simply take one idea into the field thursday.

So far the ETW plan has been interesting to say the least, the possibility of SB sweepers aside, I think we may want to push the ETW plan as far as we can go by SBing Simian Spirit Guides in addition to ETW. Considering we're SBing out Ad Nauseam and we're concentrating on going off as soon as possible on turn 1/2 with ETW backed by Cabal Therapy, I think we should be cutting back on cards like Silence, Ponder and Lands in favor of anything that strengthens ETW and to a lesser extent DimRet.

The plan is incredibly linear, but they never know at what point you're boarding it in or even if you are boarding it in.

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Originally Posted by Final Fortune

So far the ETW plan has been interesting to say the least, the possibility of SB sweepers aside, I think we may want to push the ETW plan as far as we can go by SBing Simian Spirit Guides in addition to ETW. Considering we're SBing out Ad Nauseam and we're concentrating on going off as soon as possible on turn 1/2 with ETW backed by Cabal Therapy, I think we should be cutting back on cards like Silence, Ponder and Lands in favor of anything that strengthens ETW and to a lesser extent DimRet.

The plan is incredibly linear, but they never know at what point you're boarding it in or even if you are boarding it in.

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I'm strickly against having IMS' in the board, nor do I see the space to add those shenanigans. Our deck already has so many fastmana that I'm sure we can use the SB slots for more value than SSG.

The more important message is, that the expected trend towards UWr and TNN made peeps cut some or completely chop all the Stifles according to the recent US-T16-lists.

That could be a turning point for storm

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

Sorry for causing the confusion by mentioning Grinding Station or giving some the picture of playing the 8-vs.-7-game.

Just to set things straight: i wanted to dump my hand T1/T2 more reliable (as you notice by the return of the 3rd Mox) and pushing into the red Zone while drawing cards per turn to repeat the goblin assault off a second EtW if needed, which was all the reason i refered to Grinding Station which does the same with ToA.

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Ah ok yeah this seems to fit the structure of the deck more and might be viable indeed ;)
But I guess it really more like Belcher instead of Grinding Station with 3 EtW and fast Goblins. Might an additional PiF be useful in the maindeck after boarding the EtW plan for going of another time? Or do you think it is enough to push through a Wish with flashbacked Therapies?

http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instanc...0/32337912.jpg

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Originally Posted by Mindlash

Ah ok yeah this seems to fit the structure of the deck more and might be viable indeed ;)
But I guess it really more like Belcher instead of Grinding Station with 3 EtW and fast Goblins. Might an additional PiF be useful in the maindeck after boarding the EtW plan for going of another time? Or do you think it is enough to push through a Wish with flashbacked Therapies?

http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instanc...0/32337912.jpg

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You can still wish for PiF to flashback the EtW in your GY or board the sad Yawgmoth's Will lookalike in the matchups in question. There is no need for additional PiF's

Edit: or did i mistake you talking about a second one in the 75?

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

I'm strickly against having IMS' in the board, nor do I see the space to add those shenanigans. Our deck already has so many fastmana that I'm sure we can use the SB slots for more value than SSG.

The more important message is, that the expected trend towards UWr and TNN made peeps cut some or completely chop all the Stifles according to the recent US-T16-lists.

That could be a turning point for storm

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It really doesn't, I don't know if you were around when "the norm" for TES was 4 Lion's Eye Diamond, 4 Lotus Petal, 4 Chrome Mox, 4 Dark Ritual, 4 Simian Spirit Guide and 4 Rite of Flame pre-Ad Nauseam, when TES use to regularly SB multiple ETW's before it had significantly more acceleration than we do now. I don't think SBing Simian Spirit Guide is any more ridiculous than SBing Carpet of Flowers or Tropical Island and the premium on SB space just depends on what cards you value and how you're SBing;

1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Grape Shot
3 Empty the Warrens
1 Diminishing Returns
1 Past in Flames
1 Cabal Therapy
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Simian Spirit Guide

All you're missing is the little luxuries like Telemin Performance, Xantid Swarms and Revoke Existance, which is all pretty much for the Show&Tell match up. The kind of nice thing about it is that you can stick with 2 Chrome Mox/13 Land MD and then do stuff like cut Mox post-board altogether for roughly equivalent acceleration when Ad Nauseam gets cut for more ETW.

Lets just not forget that this was in another age of storm and it's foes. I don't think however that we can afford to drop the Swarms in times of S&T, Griselbrand and the return of Meerfolk

This is true theory and has no testing to back it up, I thought of it while getting ready this morning. I'm going to test four main deck Cabal Therapy and three Silence with a Thoughtseize in the sideboard. With the lack of Stifle in the current metagame, I think it's perfectly acceptable to shave off a Silence. I'll be testing this in upcoming weeks.

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Originally Posted by Bryant Cook

This is true theory and has no testing to back it up, I thought of it while getting ready this morning. I'm going to test four main deck Cabal Therapy and three Silence with a Thoughtseize in the sideboard. With the lack of Stifle in the current metagame, I think it's perfectly acceptable to shave off a Silence. I'll be testing this in upcoming weeks.

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I'm less concerned about Stifle (as a card) than counter overloads post SB. Testing is valid, but I'm surprised by that idea with our recent chatter about Leyline as it affects the previous SB plan of no-targeted-protection post-SB against Leyline.

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

I'm less concerned about Stifle (as a card) than counter overloads post SB. Testing is valid, but I'm surprised by that idea with our recent chatter about Leyline as it affects the previous SB plan of no-targeted-protection post-SB against Leyline.

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I don't see the point of it either, considering a Silence walk is just as good as a Cabal Therapy Flashback in a lot of situations. That said, I don't think "no targeted discard" post-board vs Leyline is a necessary approach vs Leyline of Sanctity, that match up isn't nearly as bad as the aggro-control match up and I question the necessity of dedicating so many SB slots (what, Telemin Performance, 3 Xantid Swarms and Tropical Island?) against it compared to dedicating SB slots vs aggro-control and control.

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Originally Posted by Final Fortune

I don't see the point of it either, considering a Silence walk is just as good as a Cabal Therapy Flashback in a lot of situations. That said, I don't think "no targeted discard" post-board vs Leyline is a necessary approach vs Leyline of Sanctity, that match up isn't nearly as bad as the aggro-control match up and I question the necessity of dedicating so many SB slots (what, Telemin Performance, 3 Xantid Swarms and Tropical Island?) against it compared to dedicating SB slots vs aggro-control and control.

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Not being feared by Leyline is a reason I still run TP. Estimating the relevance of Leyline as a threat was part of the brainstorming in this thread this week as I opted to cut the CoV and therefore my only out against Leyline to improve the tempo- & hatebear-matchup, which Bryant reminded me about and suggested to have an out in the SB left for that.

I decided to stick to the goblins + Silence-walk in that case as I did this several times before against S&T which I believe is even once covered in a HotS-Report. With Leyline as an annoyance, Bryant kept playing the Tropical over the Telemin in his SB (could talk a whole paragraph about not having the trop in side but more lands in main by having cutted a mox blablabla). There are 4 slots in the SB for that matchup and I don't think those are far too many.

The Carpets in Bryants side cover the aggro-control and control matchups already. Which cards do you want to add for those matchups?


P.S.: I feel that the gameplann to slowly picking appart control suits better for ANT's increased cantrips and stronger Rituals, therefore the idea to take profit from the speed layout of TES and overwhelm those decks with goblins. Still theory

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

I'm strickly against having IMS' in the board, nor do I see the space to add those shenanigans. Our deck already has so many fastmana that I'm sure we can use the SB slots for more value than SSG.

The more important message is, that the expected trend towards UWr and TNN made peeps cut some or completely chop all the Stifles according to the recent US-T16-lists.

That could be a turning point for storm

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FinalFortune already made a very good response, but I'll add to it. If you want to capitalize on tempo decks cutting Stifle, play a deck with 8 fetchlands like...oh, I dunno, ANT.


Some more general thoughts:
People are increasingly realizing that they can't beat combo by trying to interact on one axis. Thresh has always been characterized by their ability to interact with both our mana and the stack - if they don't do both, we will win. Now, we're seeing other decks like Raka Delver exploit this - they board permanents and counterspells.
Previously, we win the hate-permanent battle by being faster. Death and Taxes is historically favorable because they don't interact until turn 2. Now, the hate-permanent decks also play cheap stack interaction (as mentioned in the ANT thread and elsewhere, part of the reason the fair decks can afford the sideboard space is because of True-Name Nemesis).

In my experience, a combo deck needs an above-average draw to beat a deck that packs several forms of interaction. For example, let's look at TinFins. It's one of the most objectively powerful deck in the format, but it hasn't really put up numbers. Why? Almost every deck packs 2 forms of interaction. Jund has discard + permanents. U decks have counterspells + grave hate. Etc. Obviously TinFins can prevail (it has put up some finishes), but on average the opponent's greater threat density will outweigh both explosiveness, especially given that you have to dilute your deck to deal with 2 types of answers.

This lesson applies equally to storm. Think about the games you lose. It's almost always the combination of 2 disruptive elements, right? Any high-tier legacy deck can fight through just one, but the mathematics are just not in favor of 2+ forms of interaction. Let's look at that.

Say your opponent starts out with 10/60 interactive cards maindeck - whether that be discard, counterspells, or both. Then they board in an additional 5 things that interact, often on a different axis.
That means you're fighting them drawing about a quarter of the cards in their deck vs you drawing a kill or a specific answer. To win that fight, you either need to be much faster or your answers need to be very versatile. TES qualifies much more than ANT on the first metric - trying to out-control the now-proactive control deck seems to be a losing battle - but on the second metric it falls flat. That's why I'm now thinking that TES is a contender, but an underdog.

To fix this problem, either people need to stop boarding cards that interact with storm on a second axis, storm has to be faster, or storm has to find more general answers. I doubt the first will happen since the quality of hate has gone up so much, the second seems unlikely given how long people have tried to optimize on that, and the last depends on either new printings or radical innovation.

So for that reason, I think the many-Empty plan (among others) is interesting. But otherwise, I think I'm going to take a break from my favorite deck to explore fair-land.

This analysis is correct, but we are all chopping into the same notch to fix that issue. I doubt that the situation, with a lot of the format focusing on the midrange threat of SFM + TNN and tempo facing tremendous troubles therefore, is that bad for storm.

In a world without Stifle, I rather drop T1 goblins than fetching and cantripping till my opponent drops hatebears and draws into counter/discard

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

I'm less concerned about Stifle (as a card) than counter overloads post SB. Testing is valid, but I'm surprised by that idea with our recent chatter about Leyline as it affects the previous SB plan of no-targeted-protection post-SB against Leyline.

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Originally Posted by Final Fortune

I don't see the point of it either, considering a Silence walk is just as good as a Cabal Therapy Flashback in a lot of situations. That said, I don't think "no targeted discard" post-board vs Leyline is a necessary approach vs Leyline of Sanctity, that match up isn't nearly as bad as the aggro-control match up and I question the necessity of dedicating so many SB slots (what, Telemin Performance, 3 Xantid Swarms and Tropical Island?) against it compared to dedicating SB slots vs aggro-control and control.

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Why does it effect that plan? You can still very easily board out all four Cabal Therapy for the three Xantid and a Tropical Island. Of course you're less worried about Stifle as there's less of it in the metagame, which is why I recommend that we shave a Silence (for now). Having the additional Cabal Therapy allows us to be slightly faster with the fact that we're more likely to go off turns one or two protected without needing the third color, it also allows us to disrupt on all the axis' (like Phazonmutant mentioned) that we're being attacked through. Silence doesn't do as great of an impersonation against hate bears as Cabal Therapy, it can slow them down, but it's not always enough. That said, I wouldn't go below three Silence as I think we still need to consider RUG.

Which brings me to my next point, Final Fortune claims we're not doing enough for control and aggro control. We're doing more than we have in the past with the Tropical Island and the pair of Carpet of Flowers, I don't know if he's played the Reanimator/Sneakshow match-up. But it's pretty miserable, much worse than tempo/aggro-control which isn't as bad as some make it seem. Albeit, these newer UWr lists with hate bears in the side are tougher than the former RUG.

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Originally Posted by Final Fortune

I don't see the point of it either, considering a Silence walk is just as good as a Cabal Therapy Flashback in a lot of situations.

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First, most of the time goblins give them 2 turns, and Silence can only take away one of them. Second, it's a lot easier to get a Cabal Therapy in your graveyard in a deck with a bunch of black mana and LED than it is to have a Silence in your hand after you Empty.

I suppose there's nothing wrong with 3 Silence, 4 Cabal Therapy MD as far as disruption configurations go, my main problem is that it forces you to SB another discard spell and potentially the 4th Silence. Yeah, I realize Show&Tell and Reanimator aren't good match ups for Storm, it's one of the reasons I advocated Bribery. However, I don't think Show&Tell and Reanimator are anywhere near as common place as aggro-control and its ilk. I guess we just have to pick what are one bad match up is going to be regarding dedicated SB space and move on, maybe we dump the Abrupt Decays and bite the bullet vs Miracles for a better aggro-control and show&tell match up?

Still don't get it. You have to take into considersation

1) Hatebears -> Decay, CoV
2) softcounter -> Carpet
3) Leyline -> CoV, Xantid
4) discard -> nothing
5) Counterbalance -> Decay

What you suggest is either folding to Miracles (and hatebears) or to the whole S&T-crowd by the changes suggested, or am I mistaken? I have no clue how you want to squeeze more dedicated anti-Aggro-control-cards in the MB after sideboarding without making the deck a bricking mess. I asked before, but what would you add to your SB for those matchups and how would you plan to board?

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

Still don't get it. You have to take into considersation

1) Hatebears -> Decay, CoV
2) softcounter -> Carpet
3) Leyline -> CoV, Xantid
4) discard -> nothing
5) Counterbalance -> Decay

What you suggest is either folding to Miracles (and hatebears) or to the whole S&T-crowd by the changes suggested, or am I mistaken? I have no clue how you want to squeeze more dedicated anti-Aggro-control-cards in the MB after sideboarding without making the deck a bricking mess. I asked before, but what would you add to your SB for those matchups and how would you plan to board?

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My working assumption is the best way to beat anything played on T2 is speed, and if you have the full package of 4 Infernal Tutor, 4 Burning Wish, 3 Empty the Warrens, 4 Lion's Eye Diamond, 4 Lotus Petal, 4 Chrome Mox, 4 Simian Spirit Guide, 4 Dark Ritual, 4 Rite of Flame and 4 Cabal Therapy plus a 50% to 100% chance of going first depending on the coin flip or a game loss then the match up could potentially play out like Belcher with aggressive mulliganing into Goblins.

The more linear you make the deck the faster it is, whether or not that's a good enough strategy I have no idea - but I prefer to push the deck towards the extreme of "going off" as much as possible before I fall back on reactionary answers to T2 cards.

It's how the deck use to play vs Counterbalance back in the day when every deck played Counterbalance and before Abrupt Decay was printed.

Ok, I wasn't sure if pushing the deck towards beating aggro equals the SSG idea. All clear now

@FF: You do realise that cantrips don't fit into that strategy very well?
But the thing with cutting, say, Ponder, is that our consistency goes down quite a bit.
Let's face it, this deck just doesn't always go off turn one.

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Originally Posted by Asthereal

@FF: You do realise that cantrips don't fit into that strategy very well?
But the thing with cutting, say, Ponder, is that our consistency goes down quite a bit.
Let's face it, this deck just doesn't always go off turn one.

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I'm aware, my SBing plan pretty much revolves around cutting Ad Nauseam, Ponder and X Silence for Empty the Warrens and Simian Spirit Guides vs aggro-control. Cutting Ponder doesn't necessarily mean your consistency decreases, if you're playing 3 Empty the Warrens and 4 Simian Spirit Guides it actually increases as the deck becomes more linear.

Ofcourse it doesn't always go off turn 1, but considering you're trying to race a T2 lock piece it doesn't have to always go off turn 1. Sometimes they'll be on the draw, other times you'll have a Cabal Therapy etc.

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Originally Posted by Final Fortune

I'm aware, my SBing plan pretty much revolves around cutting Ad Nauseam, Ponder and X Silence for Empty the Warrens and Simian Spirit Guides vs aggro-control. Cutting Ponder doesn't necessarily mean your consistency decreases, if you're playing 3 Empty the Warrens and 4 Simian Spirit Guides it actually increases as the deck becomes more linear.

Ofcourse it doesn't always go off turn 1, but considering you're trying to race a T2 lock piece it doesn't have to always go off turn 1. Sometimes they'll be on the draw, other times you'll have a Cabal Therapy etc.

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You could cut one Infernal as well. If you cut Ad Nauseam, Infernal becomes way weaker than Wish anyway.

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Originally Posted by Asthereal

You could cut one Infernal as well. If you cut Ad Nauseam, Infernal becomes way weaker than Wish anyway.

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Would be pointless to reduce Tutors if you goal is to drop EtW T1/T2


Edit: Tests delayed ... work, work, work :/