[Primer/Deck] Nic Fit

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Originally Posted by Ricardio

it seems like an interesting enough idea and as much of a prime time fan boy I am, I do not think he is the correct 6 cmc creature for the junk rhino fit list.

Albeit DLD dies to STP and gets bounced into oblivion by karakas, I believe it to be a better card quality for what we want to do and does not require us to change up our land based on single 6 drop we play.

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The call may also may be to just run 2 Sigarda. Overall, I'm still going to jam Spiritmonger.

I do love me some Skeletal Scrying, but I just do not have the slots.

-Matt

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Originally Posted by Bobmans

For me, the impact PrimeTime has on games is fairly low (at least from my experiance). Games where your struggling to stay in the match getting PrimeTime and more lands did way to little for a 6/7 mana investment. If i'd play 2 towers then PrimeTime fetching those might be a consideration if you can loop Thragtusk, Eternal Witness or Siege Rhino. But that is that. Often you indeed want some impact NOW, just like you say. DLD puts a giant flying wall with Lifelink, which is/can be very much relevant. I hear people argue that we already run 4 Rhino's, but somehow i felt that it misses that 1 or 2 extra points of lifegain. Thragtusk would make perfect sense in that regard, if it weren't for the so so body it provides. Talking about Grave Titan, yes it is brutal. But not green. Sun Titan is also a solid consideration since it has potential to fully lock-out a board with Eternal Witness or Pernicious Deed. But again not green.
Sigarda is obviously the best high CMC you'd want and it is often enough. But sometimes it isn't. We have yet to find the perfect 6 drop and DLD makes a solid spot and so do Grave Titan, Sun Titan and Primeval Titan. All fine but not airtight. Those have all pros and cons.

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This is so fucking true. However, the problem I have with DLD is its cost + NicFit either making me say "I don't have enough mana" or "I have too much mana". If I can smooth out my mana ramp to consistently hit 6 mana, DLD is in. If I can't figure that out, DLD is out.

Sigarda is the queen right now because I can rather consistently achieve 5 mana (4 lands and a DRS or 5 lands does happen). However, I play games where I'm color screwed and/or just stalling around 4. Shit, I had to make due last event running off 2 basics and a Carpet to eventually win a game. DLD is sometimes just "impossible" to cast at 6 mana. Again, I know a lot of that is a byproduct of the other 59 cards in my decklist, but it's a hell of an obstacle to overcome.

The games I'm mana flooded you have no idea how bad I wish I was packing DLD.

@Skeletal Scrying: Card is a boss. You just shit all over the opponent the longer the game goes because X grows larger and larger. Those games where you're around 25-30 life due to excessive Rhinos, DRS activations, Scooze, Tusk you S.Scrying for X = 6+. Unreal card draws.

I almost mentioned Hero of Bladehold; as I assume dodging Bolt, PFire, Decay, and (usually) Liliana should be pretty good. Being a 2-turn clock seems good. I'm guessing you guys have tested that; but I wouldn't be surprised if jamming 3x Bladehold would just rofl-stomp a lot of fair stuff.

That said, being boardstalled by Goyf is probably lame.

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Originally Posted by tescrin

I almost mentioned Hero of Bladehold; as I assume dodging Bolt, PFire, Decay, and (usually) Liliana should be pretty good. Being a 2-turn clock seems good. I'm guessing you guys have tested that; but I wouldn't be surprised if jamming 3x Bladehold would just rofl-stomp a lot of fair stuff.

That said, being boardstalled by Goyf is probably lame.

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I think most of the time, I have to choose Sigarda over Baneslayer (for different matchups and reasons), and Spiritmonger still loses to Sigarda in terms of flexibility (but SM is better on the mana). Could it be that running the 2nd is just the call?

Think of it like this. Do you need to have both of your 5-drops out at once? Probably not necessary. I think you'll find few times where you HAVE to have them out, since usually, you have a critter, Rhino, and THEN you cast Sigarda and the game is over. 5/5 Sigarda wins against Average Goyf, but not against what it will typically be against us (5/6 due to Enchantment/art in the yard). So, it's hard to say. Your BUg/Jund/Miracles/Maze of Ith/Emrakul matchups increase even more, but it obviously does nothing for the bad matchups (Combo).

I love Scrying, but the long term gain off Sylvan is also very, very good, so I'd have to run both. 3 Top/1 Sylvan/2 Truths/1 Scrying seems like a cool package (plus it keeps up with BS+Ponder).

Concerning 6-drops: I like mine to be GSZ'able. That means one has to be able to ramp up to 7 mana consistently instead of 6 (and 6 for Sigarda instead of 5). While Dromoka doesn't affect the board state immediately, he does pose a threat that needs to be disposed of immediately and the only decks able to easily get rid of it are those running white. In the worst case scenario that would mean you just board out Dromoka games 2 & 3 for your sideboard stuff, problem solved. See it as a big Sigarda with lifelink. Sometimes just Sigarda isn't enough, but Sigarda with +0/+2 and lifelink might still be able to save you.

When wanting to run non-green 6-drops, I recommend also running a Fierce Empath so you can still "GSZ" for them when needed. The ability to GSZ for that over the top 6-drop can completely turn the game around when it goes long.

I'm not a fan of Primeval Titan in the Junk build. Mostly b/c I don't have the room necessary in my manabase to make use of its triggers and I want to keep my manabase as compact as possible so I have more business stuff in the deck.

As for the 5-drops: The same holds true here. I like those to be GSZ'able too. 9 out of 10 times you'll probably GSZ for Sigarda, but that tenth time you're glad you brought the other 5-drop along for the ride. GSZ allows you to play a lot of diverse cards that you only get when really needed.

As I said, I think thAt the online meta is changing a little bit because of the eldrazi deck. That leads me to play sigarda AND Dromoka in the main with a tusk in the sb. Tusk is replacing DLD in the miracles match up; Elspeth replacing Meren in the same mu.

This is the configuration I feel more comfortable with. I would REALLY like to play SM but i don't have space, so I have to play either SM OR DLD.

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Originally Posted by rubblekill

As I said, I think thAt the online meta is changing a little bit because of the eldrazi deck. That leads me to play sigarda AND Dromoka in the main with a tusk in the sb.

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Still i am worried that DLD is to slow for Eldrazi MU, Spiritmongol might be a step faster, yet still it worries me a bit in terms of landing on time. Anyone has any experience here already?

The biggest problem with Hero of Bladehold is obviously not being green ;-p
I know that Brimaz (kind of the same principal) can be very brutal in DnT. HoB could do the same, but 4 cmc slots are already taken (4x Rhino, 1x Meren). I have seen Chalice based DnT (sort of Angel Stompy), i think HoB has a better place there.

When looking at the DtB section i really feel that NicFit is in a good position right now. Aside of Eldrazi, i am convinced that right now NicFit can punch up to some solid top8 positions. Does anyone feel the seem way?

Im am trying to play online (xmage), but it doesn't feel right and it does not play the same as cardboard games. Kind hate it actually. So testing comes down to real life interaction. And that presses on the actual amount of games i can test. I am not going to play on MTGO, because i am not willing to invest on a virtual card collection.

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Originally Posted by Bobmans

Still i am worried that DLD is to slow for Eldrazi MU, Spiritmongol might be a step faster, yet still it worries me a bit in terms of landing on time. Anyone has any experience here already?

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I did mention Glissa, the Traitor a number of times before... Dies to every spotremoval in the format (that Eldrazi doesn't run) but wins every ground battle that isn't vs. a Darksteel/Blighsteel Colossus for 2 mana less than anything else mentioned so far.

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Originally Posted by Bobmans

Still i am worried that DLD is to slow for Eldrazi MU, Spiritmongol might be a step faster, yet still it worries me a bit in terms of landing on time. Anyone has any experience here already?

The biggest problem with Hero of Bladehold is obviously not being green ;-p
I know that Brimaz (kind of the same principal) can be very brutal in DnT. HoB could do the same, but 4 cmc slots are already taken (4x Rhino, 1x Meren). I have seen Chalice based DnT (sort of Angel Stompy), i think HoB has a better place there.

When looking at the DtB section i really feel that NicFit is in a good position right now. Aside of Eldrazi, i am convinced that right now NicFit can punch up to some solid top8 positions. Does anyone feel the seem way?

Im am trying to play online (xmage), but it doesn't feel right and it does not play the same as cardboard games. Kind hate it actually. So testing comes down to real life interaction. And that presses on the actual amount of games i can test. I am not going to play on MTGO, because i am not willing to invest on a virtual card collection.

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My flex slot is occupied by nissa atm (since you all are so hyped about her). The mongol would take her place but I have Sigarda and DLD already. It's not like there is an abyss between 5-6 mana against eldrazi. I'm gonna switch between SM and DLD back and forth. Not only to see what's better against the field (probably DLD) but because I have fun like this.
The spikes are gonna despise me for this, but in nic fit I truly find enjoyable switching the bombs every now and then. More so because after a lot of reading AND testing the rest of the deck (and sb) is pretty much set in stone for me.

Here is the "DLD" you are looking for...

http://i.imgur.com/hngDDmS.jpg

And these are your eldrazi overlords...

http://i.imgur.com/Y7ecIHC.jpg

But yea, eldrazi run a lot of stuff that dies to deed and path to exile is great otherwise. They have to kill veteran explorer for you. Then you stabalise with a creature bigger than theirs (equipment helps).

My sideboard plan is generally:
-1 teeg -4 therapy (leaving their attackers, 2 intent and 2 towers as sac outlets),
+1 rec sage, +2 toxic deluge, +2 Garruk, PH (these games can go grindy)

edit: those images came out real big, apologies

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Originally Posted by Echelon

I did mention Glissa, the Traitor a number of times before... Dies to every spotremoval in the format (that Eldrazi doesn't run) but wins every ground battle that isn't vs. a Darksteel/Blighsteel Colossus for 2 mana less than anything else mentioned so far.

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I think that a BUG shell might suit Glissa better running Baleful Strix and perhaps some Trinket Mage to power out utility artifacts like Engineered Explosives, Pithing Needle, Tormod's Crypt/Nihil Spellbomb, Meekstone and/or Sensei's Divining Top. But that's just my brain trying to brew awesome shit every time i come across some cool mechanic/card.

Edit: And in the meanwhile, more to read..

Edit2: Seeing that Meren+Arbor.... Not sure i want to dedicate 4/5 slots on SFM/Equip. I am also a bit meh of DRS for dying to Deed lately. Still, the idea is starting to grow on me...

Brainfart: SFM based list with Glissa, i peeked at Jain_mors' list. SB is not set, but i do see some stuff like Engineered Explosives coming up. Sun Titan + Glissa (and friends) + E.Witness for complete lock-out's. I added Intent and Scrying for some tutoring/inevitability. 4 Path and 2 Decay may as well be a different configuration. I didn't include Siege Rhino, because i wanted to focus more on control then on midrange aggro.

Code:

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4 Veteran Explorer
1 Deathrite Shaman
2 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Glissa, the Traitor
1 Eternal Witness
1 Nissa, Vastwood Seer
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1 Thragtusk
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Sun Titan
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Diabolic Intent
1 Skeletal Scrying
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Abrupt Decay
4 Path to Exile
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Karakas
1 Phyrexian Tower
2 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Plains
3 Windswept Heath
4 Verdant Catacombs

Sideboard:
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Qasali Pridemage
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Pithing Needle
3 Thoughtseize
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Carpet of Flowers
1 Golgari Charm
1 Toxic Deluge

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bobmans

I think that a BUG shell might suit Glissa better running Baleful Strix and perhaps some Trinket Mage to power out utility artifacts like Engineered Explosives, Pithing Needle, Tormod's Crypt/Nihil Spellbomb and/or Sensei's Divining Top. But that's just my brain trying to brew awesome shit every time i come across some cool mechanic/card.

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Meh, just see Glissa as 3 mana, 3/3, first strike, deathtouch period. All that other stuff is just flavor text. And maybe some Jedi mind tricks towards your opponent.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bobmans

Edit2: Seeing that Meren+Arbor.... Not sure i want to dedicate 4/5 slots on SFM/Equip. I am also a bit meh of DRS for dying to Deed lately. Still, the idea is starting to grow on me...

Brainfart: SFM based list with Glissa, i peeked at Jain_mors' list. SB is not set, but i do see some stuff like Engineered Explosives coming up. Sun Titan + Glissa (and friends) + E.Witness for complete lock-out's. I added Intent and Scrying for some tutoring/inevitability. 4 Path and 2 Decay may as well be a different configuration. I didn't include Siege Rhino, because i wanted to focus more on control then on midrange aggro.

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@ SFM builds

I think if you look back @ p.129 and friends, the SFM build has been discussed and dismissed by a lot of people.
Still, I have been a major proponent of such Junk builds for reasons that I have mentioned countless times.

SFM will win you many games on its own. Why ?

Because fair decks tend to die G1 against BSK. Period. And in a large tournament, YOU NEED FREE WINS (that loose keep which leaves your T2 SFM alive sounds familiar, isn't it ?) .
So, as we were already playing the best creature of all time, why not adding a nuclear weapon onto it...

Yes it looks like Maverick; but well Maverick was once a DTB...

Once SFM + equipments are in your shell, I truly think you can dish Pernicious Deed:
1) With SFM, there is more incentive to play arbor MD
2) Jitte is a "mini" deed on his own.
3) With SFM, there is more incentive to play a heavier creature build (Arbor, Sage, DRS etc...) because even a damn squirrel can carry your big weapon

As a matter of fact, if you want to play a sweeper, I think Toxic is what you should be rooting for:
1) In a SFM junk build, life is usually less than an issue (DRS, Ooze, Rhino, Tusk, Jitte, BSK)
2) Toxic is a FULL turn faster than Deed.
3) What isn't affected by Toxic is usually covered by other spells/creatures with ETB triggers.

I'm not saying Deed is a bad choice; but, with a SFM package, Toxic will usually get the job done with more synergy with your deck's core.

The only MU were Deed is king vs Toxic is Miracle.

Speaking of which, I have never found the match to be close (G1) even with Deed in...

So, I've learnt to scoop fast to Miracle G1 (max 10-15 mins), pack some strong hate and kick him in 3.


@ DLD

I've played DLD (and suggested it) a lot.
The card is definitely nice even if it fears karakas & swords.

I'm glad some posters are trying it.

Nevertheless, in a SFM build, I would stick with Sigarda. CMC 5 should be the end of your curve to be honest.
You are just playing two of the most powerful creatures in Legacy's history (Sigarda & BSK, Thrun being the 3rd). That is already plenty.

Sigarda+BSK > all fair decks (even if DLD+BSK> Sigarda+BSK, but I doubt you will ever face this scenario in a sanctioned event).

Have fun.

Ralf

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Originally Posted by Ralf

@ SFM builds

I think if you look back @ p.129 and friends, the SFM build has been discussed and dismissed by a lot of people.
Still, I have been a major proponent of such Junk builds for reasons that I have mentioned countless times.

SFM will win you many games on its own. Why ?

Because fair decks tend to die G1 against BSK. Period. And in a large tournament, YOU NEED FREE WINS (that loose keep which leaves your T2 SFM alive sounds familiar, isn't it ?) .
So, as we were already playing the best creature of all time, why not adding a nuclear weapon onto it...

Yes it looks like Maverick; but well Maverick was once a DTB...

Once SFM + equipments are in your shell, I truly think you can dish Pernicious Deed:
1) With SFM, there is more incentive to play arbor MD
2) Jitte is a "mini" deed on his own.
3) With SFM, there is more incentive to play a heavier creature build (Arbor, Sage, DRS etc...) because even a damn squirrel can carry your big weapon

As a matter of fact, if you want to play a sweeper, I think Toxic is what you should be rooting for:
1) In a SFM junk build, life is usually less than an issue (DRS, Ooze, Rhino, Tusk, Jitte, BSK)
2) Toxic is a FULL turn faster than Deed.
3) What isn't affected by Toxic is usually covered by other spells/creatures with ETB triggers.

I'm not saying Deed is a bad choice; but, with a SFM package, Toxic will usually get the job done with more synergy with your deck's core.

The only MU were Deed is king vs Toxic is Miracle.

Speaking of which, I have never found the match to be close (G1) even with Deed in...

So, I've learnt to scoop fast to Miracle G1 (max 10-15 mins), pack some strong hate and kick him in 3.


@ DLD

I've played DLD (and suggested it) a lot.
The card is definitely nice even if it fears karakas & swords.

I'm glad some posters are trying it.

Nevertheless, in a SFM build, I would stick with Sigarda. CMC 5 should be the end of your curve to be honest.
You are just playing two of the most powerful creatures in Legacy's history (Sigarda & BSK, Thrun being the 3rd). That is already plenty.

Sigarda+BSK > all fair decks (even if DLD+BSK> Sigarda+BSK, but I doubt you will ever face this scenario in a sanctioned event).

Have fun.

Ralf

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Thnx for your insight.

Toxic Deluge sometimes locks yourself, because Eldrazi is so fast that your life total might be to low to play Toxic Deluge. I have 1 Deluge on the board and it was ok. Deed can be to slow, but that i why i am bringing 4 Path's to the fight. Discarding a card to path a Smasher sux bigtime btw.
I would see Thrun in the list, but i am not sure what to cut.

I played 2 rounds against a BW version of Eldrazi running Karakas and 2 basic Plains (nice to both Glissa and Veteran Explorer, lol). Anyway, i was on 2-0 and 2-0 on both games. All where very grindy, and one game i was really close to being dead, staring at TKS, Eldrazi Displacer and a 1/1 Endless One (yes, xD). I was at 4. I had PTower, fetch, played Meren and cracked the fetch for Dryad Arbor, sacced it to PTower, spin top (see Sun Titan) and return Veteran Explorer. Knowing i would lose the SDT because i would draw into S.Titan and Veteran Explorer gave me the 6th and 7th land i needed for Titan. He went full force. Veteran blocked the TKS, Meren blocked the Displacer and 1/1 went unblocked. So i drew top in response, fetched two lands, untapped and drew into a Pernicious Deed. I cast the Sun Titan and returned Dryad Arbor. The turn after i GSZ into Tusk. The board was turned 180 degrees on that point.

So far the list feels smooth. Has answers to everything. Sun Titan not being green didn't cause awkward situations at all. It showed up 3 times (one time thru Diabolic Intent) Only downside is that it is mega grindy compared to 4 Rhino lists. Speaking of which, i was not really missing them.

Also one game i had both Jitte and BSK on Sigarda, but you are probably right that i will never happen during a sanctioned event.

And the singleton Skeletal Scrying was amazing to. I only used it one game, but it drew 6 cards eot.

Updated the above list with a sideboard.

boarding plan vs Eldrazi (tips welcome);
-1 Scavenging Ooze
-1 Deathrite Shaman

+1 Pithing Needle
+1 Engineered Explosives
+1 Toxic Deluge
+1 Qasali Pridemage

i went to 63 this way, both Nissa and Meren could have been cut since Karakas.... But i didn't want to do that (stubborn). In the end i had P.Needle on Karakas and both Meren and Nissa where winners, figures.

@Ralf: Maverick is no longer a DTB right now lol. I think Maverick has solid cards but its collective 60 are worsening over time. The game is shifting against dork midrange (with some exception to DnT). Nic Fit has cards that are very solid for the way legacy has evolved. It's just a matter of tweaking/exploiting meta games.

@SFM: I don't buy into the idea of making Nic Fit more Maverick looking. And I love Maverick. The issues with SFM are that 1) she eats 4-5 slots in your deck, 2) she does very little on her own, and 3) she doesn't fix "bad" matchups. Don't we already manhandle fair decks? We should think about improving tough matchups. The only "fair" decks I have to worry about in my meta are Delver variants. SFM doesn't help there either.

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Originally Posted by Bobmans

Thnx for your insight.

Toxic Deluge sometimes locks yourself, because Eldrazi is so fast that your life total might be to low to play Toxic Deluge. I have 1 Deluge on the board and it was ok. Deed can be to slow, but that i why i am bringing 4 Path's to the fight. Discarding a card to path a Smasher sux bigtime btw.
I would see Thrun in the list, but i am not sure what to cut.

I played 2 rounds against a BW version of Eldrazi running Karakas and 2 basic Plains (nice to both Glissa and Veteran Explorer, lol). Anyway, i was on 2-0 and 2-0 on both games. All where very grindy, and one game i was really close to being dead, staring at TKS, Eldrazi Displacer and a 1/1 Endless One (yes, xD). I was at 4. I had PTower, fetch, played Meren and cracked the fetch for Dryad Arbor, sacced it to PTower, spin top (see Sun Titan) and return Veteran Explorer. Knowing i would lose the SDT because i would draw into S.Titan and Veteran Explorer gave me the 6th and 7th land i needed for Titan. He went full force. Veteran blocked the TKS, Meren blocked the Displacer and 1/1 went unblocked. So i drew top in response, fetched two lands, untapped and drew into a Pernicious Deed. I cast the Sun Titan and returned Dryad Arbor. The turn after i GSZ into Tusk. The board was turned 180 degrees on that point.

So far the list feels smooth. Has answers to everything. Sun Titan not being green didn't cause awkward situations at all. It showed up 3 times (one time thru Diabolic Intent) Only downside is that it is mega grindy compared to 4 Rhino lists. Speaking of which, i was not really missing them.

Also one game i had both Jitte and BSK on Sigarda, but you are probably right that i will never happen during a sanctioned event.

And the singleton Skeletal Scrying was amazing to. I only used it one game, but it drew 6 cards eot.

Updated the above list with a sideboard.

boarding plan vs Eldrazi (tips welcome);
-1 Scavenging Ooze
-1 Deathrite Shaman

+1 Pithing Needle
+1 Engineered Explosives
+1 Toxic Deluge
+1 Qasali Pridemage

i went to 63 this way, both Nissa and Meren could have been cut since Karakas. But i didn't want to that (stubborn). In the end i had P.Needle on Karakas and both Meren and Nissa where winners, figures.

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Didn't....miss...Rhino? BLASPHEMY!

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Originally Posted by Warden

@Ralf: Maverick is no longer a DTB right now lol. I think Maverick has solid cards but its collective 60 are worsening over time. The game is shifting against dork midrange (with some exception to DnT). Nic Fit has cards that are very solid for the way legacy has evolved. It's just a matter of tweaking/exploiting meta games.

@SFM: I don't buy into the idea of making Nic Fit more Maverick looking. And I love Maverick. The issues with SFM are that 1) she eats 4-5 slots in your deck, 2) she does very little on her own, and 3) she doesn't fix "bad" matchups. Don't we already manhandle fair decks? We should think about improving tough matchups. The only "fair" decks I have to worry about in my meta are Delver variants. SFM doesn't help there either.

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I 100% agree, Warden. Well said.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Warden

@Ralf: Maverick is no longer a DTB right now lol. I think Maverick has solid cards but its collective 60 are worsening over time. The game is shifting against dork midrange (with some exception to DnT). Nic Fit has cards that are very solid for the way legacy has evolved. It's just a matter of tweaking/exploiting meta games.

@SFM: I don't buy into the idea of making Nic Fit more Maverick looking. And I love Maverick. The issues with SFM are that 1) she eats 4-5 slots in your deck, 2) she does very little on her own, and 3) she doesn't fix "bad" matchups. Don't we already manhandle fair decks? We should think about improving tough matchups. The only "fair" decks I have to worry about in my meta are Delver variants. SFM doesn't help there either.

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1) That's why I used "was once a DTB"...

2) The slot you are devoting to other things (rather the 4/5 SFM slots) do not seem to improve bad matchups either. And I disagree, SFM -> BSK will give you some free wins against a lot of Delver variants.

Example:

a) BSK -> Tusk (same CMC)
b) Jitte -> 1 perni
c) 3 SFM -> 1 big bomb (6 CMC) & 2 Utility creatures

Basically, you get the "same" effect against fair decks as a standard Nic Fit list EXCEPT that you have somehow lowered the whole mana curve.

That is a "win-win" situation for me.

I have no time right now but I guess we could make a list pointing out what MU(s) a SFM package should improve compared with a standard list.

I know that playing mtgo you have to be able to beat:

Delver
Miracles
Shardless
DnT
Reanimator
ANT
Elstrampy (Eldrazi Stompy)

that is an overwhelmingly large percentage of the metagame.

As someone said before, they believe their delver matchup to be poor; I have never lost a game to delver where I resolved a vet trigger. that is the key to the matchup. I also run 4 decay so theres that as well.

Hi there, gentlemen!
I'm an oldtime brazilian player and legacy aficionado. I'm new in the forum but I've already read all Shardless' and Nic Fit's Threads and have been digesting every information shared.
I must say this is the best thread I follow in years, considering amount and quality of discussions as well as the overall comradeship! Thank you all and congrats! I'll humbly try to contribute from now on...

Legacy is a very difficult format for starters here in Brazil due to cards availability and price (f*** brazilian currency), so most people who play the format stick to a single deck and adapt it to our meta which is close to US's and very diversified. IRL I'm a BUG player (delver, Shardless, control), while playing Nic Fit exclusively online (XMage). I've already tested straight BG, Junk, BUG and BUG Walkers lists and I agree with most of you guys that the Junk list is the most tuned list so far (although my all time favorite would be Walkers - and I'm currently working on a very special one).

As I'll not have the money to build Junk IRL for a while, I'm pointing it to the online meta. I'm not facing that much Eldrazi as expected, but I kind of attract combo decks (storm, S&T, Elvs mainly). This is my current build and I'd appreciate any tips.

23 Lands:
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold
2 Bayou
1 Scrubland
1 Savannah
1 Taiga
2 Swamp
2 Forest
2 Plains
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
1 Marsh Flats

15 Creatures:
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Eternal Witness
1 Courser of Kruphix
1 Nissa, Vastwood Seer
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
4 Siege Rhino
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons

23 Other Spells:
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Path to Exile
1 (Maelstrom Pulse / Vindicate / Toxic Deluge)
2 (Diabolic Intent / Painful Truths)

15 Sideboard:
2 Slaughter Games
3 Surgical Extraction
4 Thoughtseize
1 Gaddok Teeg
1 Fleshbag Marauder
1 Pithing Needle
2 (Maelstrom Pulse / Vindicate / Toxic Deluge)
1 (Baneslayer Angel / Elspeth / Garruk)

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Originally Posted by Sarda'z

Hi there, gentlemen!
I'm an oldtime brazilian player and legacy aficionado. I'm new in the forum but I've already read all Shardless' and Nic Fit's Threads and have been digesting every information shared.
I must say this is the best thread I follow in years, considering amount and quality of discussions as well as the overall comradeship! Thank you all and congrats! I'll humbly try to contribute from now on...

Legacy is a very difficult format for starters here in Brazil due to cards availability and price (f*** brazilian currency), so most people who play the format stick to a single deck and adapt it to our meta which is close to US's and very diversified. IRL I'm a BUG player (delver, Shardless, control), while playing Nic Fit exclusively online (XMage). I've already tested straight BG, Junk, BUG and BUG Walkers lists and I agree with most of you guys that the Junk list is the most tuned list so far (although my all time favorite would be Walkers - and I'm currently working on a very special one).

As I'll not have the money to build Junk IRL for a while, I'm pointing it to the online meta. I'm not facing that much Eldrazi as expected, but I kind of attract combo decks (storm, S&T, Elvs mainly). This is my current build and I'd appreciate any tips.

23 Lands:
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold
2 Bayou
1 Scrubland
1 Savannah
1 Taiga
2 Swamp
2 Forest
2 Plains
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
1 Marsh Flats

15 Creatures:
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Eternal Witness
1 Courser of Kruphix
1 Nissa, Vastwood Seer
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
4 Siege Rhino
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons

23 Other Spells:
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Path to Exile
1 (Maelstrom Pulse / Vindicate / Toxic Deluge)
2 (Diabolic Intent / Painful Truths)

15 Sideboard:
2 Slaughter Games
3 Surgical Extraction
4 Thoughtseize
1 Gaddok Teeg
1 Fleshbag Marauder
1 Pithing Needle
2 (Maelstrom Pulse / Vindicate / Toxic Deluge)
1 (Baneslayer Angel / Elspeth / Garruk)

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4ts 3surgical? That's some pretty intensive hate right there. Have you ever considered a 2/2 split between Ts and duress? Because that's what I'd do, 4ts is a lot of life loss

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sarda'z

Hi there, gentlemen!
I'm an oldtime brazilian player and legacy aficionado. I'm new in the forum but I've already read all Shardless' and Nic Fit's Threads and have been digesting every information shared.
I must say this is the best thread I follow in years, considering amount and quality of discussions as well as the overall comradeship! Thank you all and congrats! I'll humbly try to contribute from now on...

Legacy is a very difficult format for starters here in Brazil due to cards availability and price (f*** brazilian currency), so most people who play the format stick to a single deck and adapt it to our meta which is close to US's and very diversified. IRL I'm a BUG player (delver, Shardless, control), while playing Nic Fit exclusively online (XMage). I've already tested straight BG, Junk, BUG and BUG Walkers lists and I agree with most of you guys that the Junk list is the most tuned list so far (although my all time favorite would be Walkers - and I'm currently working on a very special one).

As I'll not have the money to build Junk IRL for a while, I'm pointing it to the online meta. I'm not facing that much Eldrazi as expected, but I kind of attract combo decks (storm, S&T, Elvs mainly). This is my current build and I'd appreciate any tips.

23 Lands:
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold
2 Bayou
1 Scrubland
1 Savannah
1 Taiga
2 Swamp
2 Forest
2 Plains
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
1 Marsh Flats

15 Creatures:
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Eternal Witness
1 Courser of Kruphix
1 Nissa, Vastwood Seer
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
4 Siege Rhino
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons

23 Other Spells:
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Path to Exile
1 (Maelstrom Pulse / Vindicate / Toxic Deluge)
2 (Diabolic Intent / Painful Truths)

15 Sideboard:
2 Slaughter Games
3 Surgical Extraction
4 Thoughtseize
1 Gaddok Teeg
1 Fleshbag Marauder
1 Pithing Needle
2 (Maelstrom Pulse / Vindicate / Toxic Deluge)
1 (Baneslayer Angel / Elspeth / Garruk)

---

Welcome to the thread and the Source. Glad to have more NicFitter's.

List looks pretty streamlined. Not much to add other then 2 small things. Sooner i would play Liliana of the Veil in the board then i would play Fleshbag Marauder. The -2 effect of Liliana is mostly better. Teabagging your own Veteran Explorer might not come up often enough, sacrificing it for itself makes even Diabolic Edict a better card (instant). But Liliana sticks arround, put's pressure on your opponents hand. And if it catches removal then at least it was a 2 for 1 (card advantage).
The other thing is 3 Forests, 7 Basics. This will compliment recurring Veteran Explorer most and makes it more easy to cast and flip Nissa in the same turn while you can support your entire deck with all basics (screw you Wasteland/Loam/Blood Moon)..

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Originally Posted by Ricardio

Didn't....miss...Rhino? BLASPHEMY!

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Mwuahaha!

Two brief thoughts:

-) We're going back to Innistrad very soon. Considering that we got a new (albeit inferior) Linvala in Oath, we should keep an eye out for Sigarda 2.0. If any set could provide an upgrade or replacement to that slot, it's this set upcoming (or set two in the block, but you know what I mean). This is our best chance to get a 6-drop that we can all agree on, I think.

-) There's a very simple answer to this Eldrazi problem, and it's a very old one. This Eldrazi deck has literally no way of interacting with Academy Rector, and they HAVE to swing through on the ground. If -- and it's a big if -- this Eldrazi deck proves to be as worrisome in legacy as it has been in modern, we should revisit the old Rector tech, because they straight up cannot beat it.

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Originally Posted by Arianrhod

Two brief thoughts:

-) We're going back to Innistrad very soon. Considering that we got a new (albeit inferior) Linvala in Oath, we should keep an eye out for Sigarda 2.0. If any set could provide an upgrade or replacement to that slot, it's this set upcoming (or set two in the block, but you know what I mean). This is our best chance to get a 6-drop that we can all agree on, I think.

-) There's a very simple answer to this Eldrazi problem, and it's a very old one. This Eldrazi deck has literally no way of interacting with Academy Rector, and they HAVE to swing through on the ground. If -- and it's a big if -- this Eldrazi deck proves to be as worrisome in legacy as it has been in modern, we should revisit the old Rector tech, because they straight up cannot beat it.

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Oh the good ol amazing granny blowjobs..I cannot for the life of me forget that one liner.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Arianrhod

Two brief thoughts:

-) We're going back to Innistrad very soon. Considering that we got a new (albeit inferior) Linvala in Oath, we should keep an eye out for Sigarda 2.0. If any set could provide an upgrade or replacement to that slot, it's this set upcoming (or set two in the block, but you know what I mean). This is our best chance to get a 6-drop that we can all agree on, I think.

-) There's a very simple answer to this Eldrazi problem, and it's a very old one. This Eldrazi deck has literally no way of interacting with Academy Rector, and they HAVE to swing through on the ground. If -- and it's a big if -- this Eldrazi deck proves to be as worrisome in legacy as it has been in modern, we should revisit the old Rector tech, because they straight up cannot beat it.

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Let's hope so...

On the topic of Eldrazi + Moat/Humility. I would love that.
Rector + Diabolic Intent = Omniscience + Emrakul.
Or;
Doubling Season token confetti; with stuff as Humility, Collective Blessing (gotta love time stamps), Lingering Souls and combat planeswalker.

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Originally Posted by rubblekill

Oh the good ol amazing granny blowjobs..I cannot for the life of me forget that one liner.

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I could be down with that painful quandary.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bobmans

Let's hope so...

On the topic of Eldrazi + Moat/Humility. I would love that.
Rector + Diabolic Intent = Omniscience + Emrakul.
Or;
Doubling Season token confetti; with stuff as Humility, Collective Blessing (gotta love time stamps), Lingering Souls and combat planeswalker.

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Bobman is losing his mind in Christmas land value. Somebody get this man an adult. hes going insane with value!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ricardio

Bobman is losing his mind in Christmas land value. Somebody get this man an adult. hes going insane with value!

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Actually i have been there. On both concept's. And it performed pretty good actually.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Arianrhod

There's a very simple answer to this Eldrazi problem, and it's a very old one. This Eldrazi deck has literally no way of interacting with Academy Rector, and they HAVE to swing through on the ground. If -- and it's a big if -- this Eldrazi deck proves to be as worrisome in legacy as it has been in modern, we should revisit the old Rector tech, because they straight up cannot beat it.

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I'm not trying to poo-poo on your idea, but the Eldrazi decks do play Warping Wail. I'm not saying "DOESN'T WORK; DIES TO REMOVAL," I'm just saying they definitely have an out to a Rector. Naturally, you can void their removal by having a sac outlet ready.

Speaking as an Eldrazi player, we play 4 Wails main in my team's build and it basically always stays in. That card is amazing. I won a game off the back of countering a Hymn last night. It's also very good in this matchup, as Veteran Explorer is a pain and Deathrite is Deathrite. There also tend to be good sorcery targets in the fair matches.

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Originally Posted by Delvis

I'm not trying to poo-poo on your idea, but the Eldrazi decks do play Warping Wail. I'm not saying "DOESN'T WORK; DIES TO REMOVAL," I'm just saying they definitely have an out to a Rector. Naturally, you can void their removal by having a sac outlet ready.

Speaking as an Eldrazi player, we play 4 Wails main in my team's build and it basically always stays in. That card is amazing. I won a game off the back of countering a Hymn last night. It's also very good in this matchup, as Veteran Explorer is a pain and Deathrite is Deathrite. There also tend to be good sorcery targets in the fair matches.

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Dodging WW is just as much as dodging Swords to Plowshares for that matter.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Delvis

I'm not trying to poo-poo on your idea, but the Eldrazi decks do play Warping Wail. I'm not saying "DOESN'T WORK; DIES TO REMOVAL," I'm just saying they definitely have an out to a Rector. Naturally, you can void their removal by having a sac outlet ready.

Speaking as an Eldrazi player, we play 4 Wails main in my team's build and it basically always stays in. That card is amazing. I won a game off the back of countering a Hymn last night. It's also very good in this matchup, as Veteran Explorer is a pain and Deathrite is Deathrite. There also tend to be good sorcery targets in the fair matches.

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We lured him to the thread. now we kill him for there to be one less eldrazi player. GET HIM!

Yes, very valid point so drop all sorcery and cut the 1 thingys. NOW, WE CANT LOSE. /sarcasm

Yes, rector may be too dream world. We must find a different approach. I also suggest we start talking in an alternative language so the eldrazi people cant infiltrate our tier 1 deck. I vote arm farting.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Delvis

I'm not trying to poo-poo on your idea, but the Eldrazi decks do play Warping Wail. I'm not saying "DOESN'T WORK; DIES TO REMOVAL," I'm just saying they definitely have an out to a Rector. Naturally, you can void their removal by having a sac outlet ready.

Speaking as an Eldrazi player, we play 4 Wails main in my team's build and it basically always stays in. That card is amazing. I won a game off the back of countering a Hymn last night. It's also very good in this matchup, as Veteran Explorer is a pain and Deathrite is Deathrite. There also tend to be good sorcery targets in the fair matches.

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So, the problem with Eldrazi is that nobody has crystalized a list yet. Your team's list plays 4 Wails main? Cool. I've seen a lot of lists that don't play any, or that play 2 copies. I suppose a more accurate way of phrasing my original assertion is that some Eldrazi pilots (and/or specific hands, because it's a MUD variant and plays no card advantage or filtering) will not have any means of favorably interacting with Rector.

Also, as you noted, it's not like you don't have an overabundance of targets for Wail in the matchup. As a deck, Nic Fit is used to the idea that Swords to Plowshares exists, is annoying, and has to be overloaded. If we present enough things that are MUST SWORDS, eventually the blue decks run out of them. The same principle applies here.

I'm merely suggesting it as a possible avenue that's worth considering. We played it in the past, we know it works, and we know it would be effective in the matchup. At this point, I remain unconvinced that the Eldrazi deck is even good enough to hold a significant market share in the legacy metagame. It'll be around, I'm sure, but I'm skeptical that we need to worry about it as being a popular, tier 1 deck.

As I've said before about other decks: we are the boogeymen. We are the thing that goes bump in the night. We do NOT sideboard or aggressively change our deck for other boogeymen. If Eldrazi proves itself popular enough to have to worry about playing it twice an event, then we can talk.

edit: I suppose I should clarify that I don't play on modo, and I'm referring only to paper here. I know Eldrazi is supposedly taking up a large % on modo, but I think that's more of a reaction to people who were able to buy cards to play the deck in all formats. I know that if I were to get into modo, that would be a good strategy. I certainly do not want to re-buy my collection, and if I had the ability to buy 1 deck and play it in 4 formats with minor changes, that would be pretty attractive.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ricardio

We lured him to the thread. now we kill him for there to be one less eldrazi player. GET HIM!

Yes, very valid point so drop all sorcery and cut the 1 thingys. NOW, WE CANT LOSE. /sarcasm

Yes, rector may be too dream world. We must find a different approach. I also suggest we start talking in an alternative language so the eldrazi people cant infiltrate our tier 1 deck. I vote arm farting.

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Hehe,

Everything to make their life miserable. The folowing about Eldrazi players missing their TKS LTB trigger.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by cdr

Make it clear that you're past the point where the trigger could resolve by doing something that could only be done if the trigger didn't exist (playing something, verbally moving to next phase/step) and then call a judge when your opponent doesn't say anything. Your opponent will get a warning every time and you'll get the draw trigger resolved immediately.

http://blogs.magicjudges.org/rules/ipg2-1/

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Quote:

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4ts 3surgical? That's some pretty intensive hate right there. Have you ever considered a 2/2 split between Ts and duress? Because that's what I'd do, 4ts is a lot of life loss

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I've already considered 3 TS / 1 Duress split. Thing is when I board in discard I really want it in my initial hand, so I can potencially go T1: TS, T2: Therapy #1 (sure hit), Vet, sac, Therapy #2 (hit again) T3: Rhino time!
Having Duress instead against S&T isn't the same thing...

Quote:

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Welcome to the thread and the Source. Glad to have more NicFitter's.

List looks pretty streamlined. Not much to add other then 2 small things. Sooner i would play Liliana of the Veil in the board then i would play Fleshbag Marauder. The -2 effect of Liliana is mostly better. Teabagging your own Veteran Explorer might not come up often enough, sacrificing it for itself makes even Diabolic Edict a better card (instant). But Liliana sticks arround, put's pressure on your opponents hand. And if it catches removal then at least it was a 2 for 1 (card advantage).
The other thing is 3 Forests, 7 Basics. This will compliment recurring Veteran Explorer most and makes it more easy to cast and flip Nissa in the same turn while you can support your entire deck with all basics (screw you Wasteland/Loam/Blood Moon)..

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Thank you!
1 - Marauder over Lili is so that it can ETB from S&T or be exhumed against reanimator. I'd take lili to my bed though ;)
2 - I used to play 8 fetches with 8 basics, but then switched to 9 fetches, 6 basics and the solo taiga for SG. I agree with the Nissa point, so maybe I'm cutting the 9th fetch or the 2nd bayou for the 3rd basic forest.


On another topic: I was running a single Titania over the 4th Rhino and she really impressed me. Anyone else?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sarda'z

I've already considered 3 TS / 1 Duress split. Thing is when I board in discard I really want it in my initial hand, so I can potencially go T1: TS, T2: Therapy #1 (sure hit), Vet, sac, Therapy #2 (hit again) T3: Rhino time!
Having Duress instead against S&T isn't the same thing...




Thank you!
1 - Marauder over Lili is so that it can ETB from S&T or be exhumed against reanimator. I'd take lili to my bed though ;)
2 - I used to play 8 fetches with 8 basics, but then switched to 9 fetches, 6 basics and the solo taiga for SG. I agree with the Nissa point, so maybe I'm cutting the 9th fetch or the 2nd bayou for the 3rd basic forest.


On another topic: I was running a single Titania over the 4th Rhino and she really impressed me. Anyone else?

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yeah, I should swap 3 duress in the board for seize, been lazy to put more cred on mtgo(I own like 12 seize irl for some reason)
Marauder seems to be super meta dependant imho. like maybe there is an abundance of snt in your meta but otherwise its a liability bc junk just plays better removal.
I run 6 fetches, 7 basics. 21 lands. blah blah save the cheerleader blah.
I cut nissa, she was cute and sometimes good but she dies to EVERYTHING. Holy vet, she is like that slut that gets more use than the sidewalk in front of walmart.
E-wit is the senpai we need, not deserve, eyeing a cheaper greenwarden one day.

EDIT: 300TH POST! MADNESS?? THIS...IS...SKILLERHINO!

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Originally Posted by Ricardio

Marauder seems to be super meta dependant imho. like maybe there is an abundance of snt in your meta but otherwise its a liability bc junk just plays better removal.
I run 6 fetches, 7 basics. 21 lands. blah blah save the cheerleader blah.
I cut nissa, she was cute and sometimes good but she dies to EVERYTHING.

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His point with Fleshbag is solid. Junk has better removal but Marauder does solve Emrakul or Inkwel Leviathan.

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Originally Posted by Bobmans

His point with Fleshbag is solid. Junk has better removal but Marauder does solve Emrakul or Inkwel Leviathan.

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I am not saying he is wrong, I just know that in the correct meta, he is probably insane but so is the case with other niche cards.
rhinos outrace inkwell. therefore Rhino > leviathan

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ricardio

I cut nissa, she was cute and sometimes good but she dies to EVERYTHING. Holy vet, she is like that slut that gets more use than the sidewalk in front of walmart.

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Someone call an ambulance because I'm dying right now

E: to not go offtopic, I have found that the key part in playing nissa is to know when to play her, usually when you are sure to flip her in the very late game. Against non GBx decks she has been pretty decent, I don't know if she's here to stay.

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Originally Posted by rubblekill

Someone call an ambulance because I'm dying right now

E: to not go offtopic, I have found that the key part in playing nissa is to know when to play her, usually when you are sure to flip her in the very late game. Against non GBx decks she has been pretty decent, I don't know if she's here to stay.

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Saw you are in Italy, I called Toad and he said Mario is en route in his kart.

Nissa just wasn't good enough in my experiences. I re-configured and I hope to test tonight. Might devolve into rum/coke and LoL. Either way, I win. Work for another 2 hours. *sad face*

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Originally Posted by rubblekill

...E: to not go offtopic, I have found that the key part in playing nissa is to know when to play her, usually when you are sure to flip her in the very late game. Against non GBx decks she has been pretty decent, I don't know if she's here to stay.

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This is actually what convinced me to buy her at my last event. She actually is mad decent most of the time. There is a way to judge her early-game value and sometimes she's just a Wood Elf/Sakura. Other times (especially late game), she's ramp + auto planeswalker, which is really strong.

I LOL'ed at Bobmans. Beyond Christmasland.

Academy is a route I totally forgot. Same for Humility.

@Sigarda 2: If she's even in the set/block, she's gonna suck. I'd love to be wrong. IMO the track record for "solid magic females who get a second version" leads to a decrease in quality. It would be interesting if we get a BGx equivalent to Sigarda (either color/alliance shifted or her long lost sister).

League

2-1 reanimator
DRS t2 g2 and g3

2-1 burn
i won the roll and won g1/g3

2-1 burn (scggreen)
same as before but g1 i tripled rhinod him haha

0-2 RW Painter
G1 he had combo and i couldnt interact

g2 i surgicaled servant. he landed jaya and bridge and i drew 5 lands in a row

0-2 G Post
This felt entirely unwinnable.

3-2

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Originally Posted by Ricardio

League

2-1 reanimator
DRS t2 g2 and g3

2-1 burn
i won the roll and won g1/g3

2-1 burn (scggreen)
same as before but g1 i tripled rhinod him haha

0-2 RW Painter
G1 he had combo and i couldnt interact

g2 i surgicaled servant. he landed jaya and bridge and i drew 5 lands in a row

0-2 G Post
This felt entirely unwinnable.

3-2

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Reanimate is not that bad a match-up. Probably one of the better combo MU's. DRS shines here indeed.

About RW Painter; i don't have the feeling that it is a bad match-up. Rather (comparable to Elves) it is more to how you deploy removal and have something of a clock.

12Post in any form with Emrakul is probably auto scoop. There is near to nothing we can do to slow there deployment in their manabase and prevent Emrakul from being hardcast.

I'll post a Junk RectorBlessing list later. If you own the cards and looking for something fun and not too serious, this is sweet.