[Deck] Death and Taxes

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Originally Posted by Dragonslayer_90

Thanks Barbed Blightning! What sideboard cards do you think are absolutely essential? Don't need a whole 15 but I just want a skeleton of the deck with some sb slots.

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Do you have an expected metagame? It can change the sideboard drastically with this deck, the only mainstays for me no matter what are 2-3 Rest in Peace, 2 Cataclysm, 1 Manriki Gusari, and 1-2 Graff Cage. I'm also not a fan of Cavern of Souls since the re-addition of Serra Avenger. It can make her really hard to cast if you drop Cavern on Human/Artificer and you start drawing Avengers. I am liking the idea of 2 Horizon Canopy along with 10 plains and the usual suspects(23 land).

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Originally Posted by Dragonslayer_90

Thanks Barbed Blightning! What sideboard cards do you think are absolutely essential? Don't need a whole 15 but I just want a skeleton of the deck with some sb slots.

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2-3 RIP (too good not to run)
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Cage
1-2 Pithing Needle (Top, Thespian's Stage, etc)
1-2 wilt leaf liege
1-2 extra creature kill
1-2 disenchant effects

It's worth noting that the last two have some overlap thanks to Council's Judgment. I like the one of Path I've seen in recent sideboards also.

The sideboard is where the real fun begins I think. Adapting the deck to your metagame will send you on a journey of discovery as you sift through years of old hate cards to find something like Holy Light. My notes are more geared for an Open meta, so take it with a grain of salt. I'll be more than happy to answer any other questions you may have![emoji3]

@Roob: I used to hate cavern, but if you have a meta filled with counterbalance it is the best land in the deck. Besides, it's for forcing through powerful cards, like Thalia, Crusader or Mom. Plus Wisp can reset it.

Canopy is best for a combo meta where you want to dig for hate. Eiganjo Castle is good vs red decks. However,I would insist that we stick with as many plains as possible to keep our dominance over the Delver decks (and POP can still hit hard on occasion)

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Originally Posted by Dragonslayer_90

Thanks Barbed Blightning! What sideboard cards do you think are absolutely essential? Don't need a whole 15 but I just want a skeleton of the deck with some sb slots.

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1 Pithing Needle
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1-2 E-Tutors (if that is your thing)
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Rest in Piece
other meta slots

I stopped running Cavern a while ago. Being uncounterable isn't as important as having a rock-solid manabase. Too often, I couldn't activate my Stoneforges or cast my :w::w: stuff due to Cavern. It's also another Wasteland target. I would rather run 1 Canopy.

And I have yet to hear why people are running lists with only 3 Flickerwisps. It's THE workhorse of the deck and it has won me countless games, especially in combination with Vials. Sure, sometimes it's just a 3/1 flyer that untaps one of your lands, but the raw power of Flickerwisp tricks far outweight that.

Thanks for all the input guys I really appreciate it! I'm not building a D&T list for a specific metagame, at least once I go back to school. Where I am for the summer I can play anything because they do 75 proxy. Once summer is done though I'm back to being limited to what I actually own. Sadly don't have rishadan ports and multiple karakas. In the near future I may bring it to the LGS I currently play at, but I'll probably play the deck on cockatrice for a bit first. By the way, what should I know about Elves? I hear it's the worse matchup for the deck. Does play even matter in that MU?

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Originally Posted by Dragonslayer_90

Thanks for all the input guys I really appreciate it! I'm not building a D&T list for a specific metagame, at least once I go back to school. Where I am for the summer I can play anything because they do 75 proxy. Once summer is done though I'm back to being limited to what I actually own. Sadly don't have rishadan ports and multiple karakas. In the near future I may bring it to the LGS I currently play at, but I'll probably play the deck on cockatrice for a bit first. By the way, what should I know about Elves? I hear it's the worse matchup for the deck. Does play even matter in that MU?

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Play always matters. D&T can beat any deck. However, Elves escapes our pseudo-control rather easily since they play the one angle we can't attack: spamming creatures. Their mana ramp also shrugs off our, by comparison, feeble attempts to constrict it.

However, there are some things we can do, such as:

Sticking a Jitte on a dude ASAP. Next priority equipment is SoFI.

Revoker on Heritage Druid, Symbiote, then whatever hurts the most in that order.

Even Thalia can do work. She's not priority, but if they appear to be stumbling on mana, toss her into the ring.

Mindcensor is a brutal hate card. Turn 3 he should be coming down, or at the very least in response to something.

Finally, remember that Flickerwisp is a versatile tool. When sideboarding, do no cut them first (Thalia and Avenger are my first picks). Remember that you can flicker blockers to get a Jitte activation, disrupt a Druid trio, lessen a Hoof trigger's count and deprive them of a crucial land or permanent for a turn.

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Originally Posted by Barbed Blightning

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@Roob: I used to hate cavern, but if you have a meta filled with counterbalance it is the best land in the deck. Besides, it's for forcing through powerful cards, like Thalia, Crusader or Mom. Plus Wisp can reset it.

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I don't like this logic, I'm sorry. If you want to force through powerful cards with a one of in a 0 cantrip deck, playing a 1-of land is like trying to live in a pipe dream. I feel like you will lose more games because of Cavern than you will win, especially since counter spells don't really bother us most of the time anyways. I feel like in Legacy, if you're playing a non-blue deck, your 1-ofs have to be really high impact with very little downside to be worth playing at all. I just don't like the idea of a bad Vial #5 that can randomly make your manabase very susceptible to Wasteland with very little upside. It's basic mathematics really, how often it actually helps you versus how often it hurts you. I'm not saying that playing it is 100% wrong, but I feel like it doesn't pull its weight to desrve a slot as a 1-of. Please just try playing 2 Canopy for at least 20ish matches and tell me it has been consistently terrible. I've just never been a fan of cards that can be rarely amazing, but at the same time less than stellar on average. Also keep in mind that my opinion is based on how many double white cards are in the 75 you choose to play. I do have more WW cards than most lists I've seen around, I play 3 Serra, 3 Crusader, and usually 1 Mangara plus 2 Cataclysm in the board (Forgive the rambling, slightly intoxicated over here:)).

EDIT @ Barbed- I feel like the most compelling argument you came up with in your brief response to me is that it can be reset with Flickerwisp. Sure, that is definitely bound to come up eventually. But if you're as experienced with D&T as I think you are, you should know that ~90% of the time you're Flickering your own stuff, you're in a fairly good / really good position to win anyway. Premature Flickering is a sign of a weak/inexperienced D&T player in my opinion, because he is one of the few ways we have to blow open an even game/board state, among other things. As a general rule, I've adopted the no Flicker rule. Basically, you don't want to Flicker unless you are getting supreme value out of him, or increasing your clock by at least a turn. There will obviously be exceptions to this self coined rule depending on the matchup and/or gamestate you find yourself in, but we don't play the card because it's a 3/1 flier, we play the card because of it's versatility.

Looking forward to your reply, I will be on this deck if I choose to play at the SCG this weekend (money is really tight at the moment). I've been crushing my locals every time I play this deck (against a lot of very good Legacy specialists). It's either because I haven't played the same deck practically ever or it's because this deck is as powerful as I think it is.

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Originally Posted by Barbed Blightning

When sideboarding, do no cut them first (Thalia and Avenger are my first picks).

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I do this too as it leaves in the most disruption. But damn if it doesn't prevent me from switching to offense. All my creatures left are too tiny. Ya gotta get lucky and draw a Crusader or a Mystic to even attack. I suppose it is just a symptom of "friggin' Elves!" syndrome.

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Originally Posted by Finn

I do this too as it leaves in the most disruption. But damn if it doesn't prevent me from switching to offense. All my creatures left are too tiny. Ya gotta get lucky and draw a Crusader or a Mystic to even attack. I suppose it is just a symptom of "friggin' Elves!" syndrome.

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The way I see it, if you are trading dudes for dudes it's still hurting your opponent (that being said, it does suck if you attack with say Revoker). Fortunately Canonist has a little bit of beefy on her, though.

@DS90: I forgot to list sideboarded cards. I would use:

2 Canonist
1-2 Cage
1-2 Needle (Symbiote>Ranger>DRS)
1 Path(risky), Sunlance, even councils judgment

Turn one cage, turn two Canonist, turn three SFM into jitte is your godplay.

Hi, guys! I'm new to the deck. I want to get some idea to fight 12 post. that match up is tough, especially they needle on our wasteland. perhaps we just give up mana control plan and cast all our dudes as fast as possible?

thanks for any suggestions.

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Originally Posted by entreri_fans

Hi, guys! I'm new to the deck. I want to get some idea to fight 12 post. that match up is tough, especially they needle on our wasteland. perhaps we just give up mana control plan and cast all our dudes as fast as possible?

thanks for any suggestions.

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Aven Mindcensor is a boss. Beyond that:

Revoker on Candelabra, Top, Expedition Map in that order of priority. Beware Karn in their board.

Mangara of Corondor is stupid good unless the Crop up a Karakas.

Needle from the board goes on Eye of Ugin, Thespian's Stage or Karakas (because you cannot profit by Emrakul bouncing that deck). Karn Liberated too, but ideally you save a Revoker for that. Name Misty Rainforest if you want some lulz.

Ghost Quarter is also good if you run it and Cataclysm is great at busting their balls (obviously Armageddon's better).

Repeal can hurt, so keep in your Mom and Thalia. Drop Serra Avenger, but do not drop Crusader since he beefs through Prime Time. Drop Jitte, maybe even Batterskull.

It's still a bad matchup, but I am sure there are more specific hate cards we can run.

Yes there are.

I have successfully used a single Winter Orb in my Enlightened Tutor sideboard to retard the development of 12-post long enough to win with Avengers and company. If you can do anything to slow them down (your usual tools are insufficient which is why it is a hard matchup), a hatchet like Cataclysm or Armageddon will finish the job. Most of the best tools are not in the main. Mangara is the only good answer in the main of some decks in fact. It is no wonder the matchup is hard.

Also note that a well placed Surgical Extraction on Cloud Post can put you in command early. But who even uses that card?

wow, thanks guys, I will be trying your suggestions:smile:

I'm curious to hear if any of you have tested Flagstones of Troikar and how they have been performing for you.

I've played 3 Flagstones 7 plains for about 6 months now and I've been liking them, there's definite downsides but the cost of running them is generally very low.

Upsides:

• Thins the deck (extremely minor upside)
• Sometimes people wasteland it because they're unfamiliar with the card
• Fantastic with Cataclysm

Downsides

• Feeds Deathrite Shaman in multiples
• Vulnerable to Back to Basics (which is terrible against you to begin with)
• Vulnerable to Blood Moon (which is also not very effective against you)
• Wastelandable land with Rest in Peace in play

Might've missed some downsides but this is what comes to mind. The downsides very rarely comes up so I've been considering going up to 4x. I've also considered cutting them entirely since I've been playing with them for so long that I don't remember what it's like to play without them.

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Originally Posted by Bahra

I'm curious to hear if any of you have tested Flagstones of Troikar and how they have been performing for you.

I've played 3 Flagstones 7 plains for about 6 months now and I've been liking them, there's definite downsides but the cost of running them is generally very low.

Upsides:

• Thins the deck (extremely minor upside)
• Sometimes people wasteland it because they're unfamiliar with the card
• Fantastic with Cataclysm

Downsides

• Feeds Deathrite Shaman in multiples
• Vulnerable to Back to Basics (which is terrible against you to begin with)
• Vulnerable to Blood Moon (which is also not very effective against you)
• Wastelandable land with Rest in Peace in play

Might've missed some downsides but this is what comes to mind. The downsides very rarely comes up so I've been considering going up to 4x. I've also considered cutting them entirely since I've been playing with them for so long that I don't remember what it's like to play without them.

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Well, in the mirror match, Flagstones gives opposing Mindcensors more reason to stick around.

Let's not forget that the burn matchup is still scary--scarier if you include Flagstones.

The cataclysm (or Armageddon) argument I'll give you, but the others hardly support the choice of card. Nobody is going to wasteland your Flagstones unless they are a complete invalid. It'd be like Ghost Quartering a Plains.

Thinning is similarly weak, but you already have admitted so.

Basically, despite our supposedly solid manabase, well over half of our lands are usually nonbasic. I see no good reason to further weaken ourselves to Blood Moon, POP or B2B for an ultimately fringe benefit off a land that provides no disruptive or true ramping ability.

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Originally Posted by Barbed Blightning

Well, in the mirror match, Flagstones gives opposing Mindcensors more reason to stick around.

Let's not forget that the burn matchup is still scary--scarier if you include Flagstones.

The cataclysm (or Armageddon) argument I'll give you, but the others hardly support the choice of card. Nobody is going to wasteland your Flagstones unless they are a complete invalid. It'd be like Ghost Quartering a Plains.

Thinning is similarly weak, but you already have admitted so.

Basically, despite our supposedly solid manabase, well over half of our lands are usually nonbasic. I see no good reason to further weaken ourselves to Blood Moon, POP or B2B for an ultimately fringe benefit off a land that provides no disruptive or true ramping ability.

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Well in Europe there's almost no Blood Moons, PoPs or B2Bs but there's a ton of miracles. I think the decision of whether or not to run them is close but they've won me more games than I've lost with them I feel like.

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Originally Posted by Bahra

Well in Europe there's almost no Blood Moons, PoPs or B2Bs but there's a ton of miracles. I think the decision of whether or not to run them is close but they've won me more games than I've lost with them I feel like.

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How do they win games? In no way can they attack, put dudes into play (aside from their obvious way) or fetch up hate/equipment.

You deck and skill won you those games. I can see no way for Flagstones to be a relevant factor.

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Originally Posted by Barbed Blightning

How do they win games? In no way can they attack, put dudes into play (aside from their obvious way) or fetch up hate/equipment.

You deck and skill won you those games. I can see no way for Flagstones to be a relevant factor.

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That is such a terrible response. They won me games indirectly. In many games I've cast cataclysm with a flagstones of troikar in play and no Æther Vial so after Cataclysm I have 2 lands to their 1 and I can still cast most of my spells even without drawing additional lands.

That's how they've won me games.

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Originally Posted by Bahra

That is such a terrible response. They won me games indirectly. In many games I've cast cataclysm with a flagstones of troikar in play and no Æther Vial so after Cataclysm I have 2 lands to their 1 and I can still cast most of my spells even without drawing additional lands.

That's how they've won me games.

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Still seems too narrow. It'd be like me running Strionic Resonator and claiming that it is worth including because it copies Flickerwisp or Jitte triggers and has won me games as a result. Maybe it has, but the benefit is narrow and the card could easily be replaced by better, more impactful cards.

Also, it isn't a "terrible response." The card doesn't do much of anything most of the time, except the occasional profit off LD and helping you get locked out against nonbasic hate.

Like I said above, you won those games not because of Flagstones but because of your skill with the deck and, obviously, the power of Cataclysm. The game was likely over once you resolved that spell and because you knew when to drop it, not because of some paltry land. Don't delude yourself by believing otherwise.

Cataclysm has won me enough games recently that I've been considering Flagstones, but that's not good reasoning when I think about it a second time, because those games are already won when I resolve the Cataclysm. And there are real downsides to running Flagstones. The first time a Delver opponent races you by Wasting it during your upkeep and taking you off Flickerwisp or Jitte mana for that one crucial turn, or a Painter deck Moons your Flagstones/Waste/Karakas draw, you will hate the card and never run it again. The upside is tiny when you consider how easy it should be to set up a fatal Cataclysm without needing your lands replaced.

As a miracles player I have a hard time with this matchup. Between Thalia, vials and SFM I find it hard to keep the board clear. I wanted to asked the seasoned D&T players here what cards have hurt you the most when you played against miracles.

I am really liking Izzet Staticaster over the sulfur elemental. He can block easier, kills revokers, and doesn't beef up your angels/SFMs for more beats. I am also running 2 EE as well. What other cards have you seen sided in against you that have worked well?




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Pithing Needle for key cards is a nuisance. As is stuff like EE and Wear/Tear or more mass removal in general.

Staticaster and Sulfur Elemental are both really nasty, and Needling Vial can force us to play the game Miracles wants to play, which is usually 50%+ in Mracles' favor. The last time I lost to a sideboard card out of Miracles, though, it was Keranos, God of Storms. That card can be very difficult to beat if it comes down against anything less than a board that threatens a 1-2 turn clock. Admittedly I have no idea whether it is good enough to be worth a slot in an open meta, but it's always seemed insane when it gets played against me.

hello,
its been awhile since i played mtg and seeing the meta right now, i would like to ask you guys some questions about DT..
1. how effective is the mana denial plan right now.. running 4 wasteland 4 rishadan ports.
2. aven mindcensor seem to have to its value increased in terms of its use as compared to before. but normally i just see 1-2 pcs in decks running it ??
3. how effective is councils judgement as compared to oring ?, oring can be tutored so you could get it faster as compared to councils judgement.
4. ive been seeing main deck flagstones, why not run horizon canopy over flagstone.. is it bec of cataclysm ? is cataclysm really effective now ??

thanks in advance

[QUOTE=Bahra;821671]

Been trying 2 main deck council's judgements like bahra had discussed on stream and have come to like them though they can sometimes be awkward.

In response to the mana denial plan it works rather well. When I test miracles vs my friends D&T deck he has no problems locking me out of white mana with wasteland on duals and ports on basics. This really lets him do more with vial as an EoT SFM into playing the equip with no real answer to it is a pain.


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I don't have much experience with this deck, but I've tried a few Flagstones because I didn't have enough Beta Plains to run this deck. I think the negligible downsides slightly outweigh the (even more negligible) upsides, but if you even have one Pox player in your local meta, that might be enough to tip the balance.

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Originally Posted by _erbs_

hello,
its been awhile since i played mtg and seeing the meta right now, i would like to ask you guys some questions about DT..
1. how effective is the mana denial plan right now.. running 4 wasteland 4 rishadan ports.
2. aven mindcensor seem to have to its value increased in terms of its use as compared to before. but normally i just see 1-2 pcs in decks running it ??
3. how effective is councils judgement as compared to oring ?, oring can be tutored so you could get it faster as compared to councils judgement.
4. ive been seeing main deck flagstones, why not run horizon canopy over flagstone.. is it bec of cataclysm ? is cataclysm really effective now ??

thanks in advance

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The mana denial plan has to be effective or the deck will not consistently place. It's pivotal and one of the most relevant reasons why the deck is relevant or competitive. The deck appears to be consistently placing, so odds are mana denial is pretty decent.

Mindcensor is a card that sounded less than impressive to me when I was first playing the deck, but having actually run 2 for a while recently I have come to really appreciate it. It doesn't have the raw impact of almost any other creature in the deck because it has a nonrepeatable effect, but it pulls its weight when I draw it so I've decided to stick with it. It still falls into the flex slot category where you can run pretty much any decent 2 or 3 drop role player and be fine though.

I've never felt comfortable tutoring for O-Ring, between Tutor being card disadvantage and O-Ring being removable via Decay, Wear/Tear, etc. I've been running a 1-1 split between O-Ring and Judgment in my board (I don't think 3-mana sorcery speed removal is a maindeck card in a Thalia deck) and switching the Ring out for the second Judgment has looked better and better to me recently.

Cataclysm is insane and you don't need Flagstoes for it to be good. I run 2 Cataclysm and 0 Flagstones and I'm happy with both. Then again I don't see a lot of Smallpox decks around, and I do see Burn and Blood Moon decks.

How about an update to the primer on the first page?

It even still has Judge's Familiar and only 2 Revokers, for crying out loud.

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Originally Posted by Barook

How about an update to the primer on the first page?

It even still has Judge's Familiar and only 2 Revokers, for crying out loud.

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You'll probably have to PM Finn about that

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Originally Posted by Pans-Advocate

The mana denial plan has to be effective or the deck will not consistently place. It's pivotal and one of the most relevant reasons why the deck is relevant or competitive. The deck appears to be consistently placing, so odds are mana denial is pretty decent.

Mindcensor is a card that sounded less than impressive to me when I was first playing the deck, but having actually run 2 for a while recently I have come to really appreciate it. It doesn't have the raw impact of almost any other creature in the deck because it has a nonrepeatable effect, but it pulls its weight when I draw it so I've decided to stick with it. It still falls into the flex slot category where you can run pretty much any decent 2 or 3 drop role player and be fine though.

I've never felt comfortable tutoring for O-Ring, between Tutor being card disadvantage and O-Ring being removable via Decay, Wear/Tear, etc. I've been running a 1-1 split between O-Ring and Judgment in my board (I don't think 3-mana sorcery speed removal is a maindeck card in a Thalia deck) and switching the Ring out for the second Judgment has looked better and better to me recently.

Cataclysm is insane and you don't need Flagstoes for it to be good. I run 2 Cataclysm and 0 Flagstones and I'm happy with both. Then again I don't see a lot of Smallpox decks around, and I do see Burn and Blood Moon decks.

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Hello,
Thanks for the response, i've tried playing the current DT slightly modified, it felt more like a midrange white weenie of some sort.... the tricks are almost gone. Maybe its bec. of the list i ran thats why i felt it that way. Since im in the testing mode i made the deck like this.

Lands [23]
4 wasteland
4 rishadan ports
2 horizon canopy
3 karakas
10 plains

Spell [11]
4 aether vial
4 stp
1 bskull
1 sofi
1 jitte

Creatures [26]
4 mother of runes
3 thalia
3 phyrexian revoker
2 spirit of the labyrinth
3 stoneforge mystic
3 serra avenger
2 mirran crusader
1 brimaz
3 flickerwisp
2 aven mindcensor

the test was somewhat okay though i feel something is missing or im just not used to the new dt which plays more aggro over the one with 3 mangara.

some notes:
when your up against a slow deck or an opponent who runs brainstorm or dark confidant and he doesnt expect you to have spirit of the labyrinth and your line of play is MOM > labyrinth, its good the damage it provides seems fast enough for your other creatures to finish the game.. having that said at times revoker seem to be somewhat a weak card and the deck just dies to pyroclasm or any -1/-1 effects..

i know revoker is a very very good card as it could stop lots of cards like sensei top and liliana the most common targets, but without a way to clear the board they just stand at the back similar to what mom does.., labyrinth is almost similar but atleast it could kill a mongoose but thats irrelevant, i just feel the current list seems to lack the creature toughness as most of our creatures has a toughness as 1.

then when your opponent lands a sulfur elemental and you have no councils judgement or stp or somesort of removal , your deck just stop and die.

have you guys ever tested Ajani, Caller of the Pride or something similar, i know it would seem off forcing DT to play faster as DT is a control deck, but without the mangara lock and the changes of the legend rule, controlling your opponents board seems harder to do, before if your opponent has a jitte just play jitte to destroy it now a online jitte is problematic for DT.

i know my deck isnt the typical current DT but i feel its close enough to what the current is.

oh the 2 horizon canopy for me is nice as compared to flagstones

I was thinking maybe DT should play like a tempo game... and not control your opponent as to what it does before... ?? what do you think ?, White Tempo hahaha ??

Thinking about the following sideboard; since Council's Judgment gives us a lot of flexibility, I am considering reincorporating the tutor board:

2 E Tutor
2 Judgment
2 Canonist
2 Liege
2 RiP
1 Cage
1 Needle
1 CoP: Red
1 Spirit of the Labyrinth

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Originally Posted by Barbed Blightning

Thinking about the following sideboard; since Council's Judgment gives us a lot of flexibility, I am considering reincorporating the tutor board:

2 E Tutor
2 Judgment
2 Canonist
2 Liege
2 RiP
1 Cage
1 Needle
1 CoP: Red
1 Spirit of the Labyrinth

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One short...Cage? SoLaS?

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Originally Posted by Jungian Thing

One short...Cage? SoLaS?

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Path to Exile or Sunlance, probably. Chalice and Sphere of Resistance are both viable options, though.

I would never leave home without 1 Cataclysm with Miracles at its current position in the meta, and honestly I'd much rather find room for a second. I also think Ratchet Bomb and Manriki-Gusari have really earned their slots. My board right now is:

2 Rest In Peace
2 Cataclysm
2 Wilt-Leaf Leige
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Manriki-Gusari
1 Ratchet Bomb
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Circle of Protection: Red
1 Council's Judgment
1 Oblivion Ring (probably becoming a second Judgment)
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Spirit of the Labyrinth

I feel a little spread thin, specifically in terms of not having a second Canonist and having no additional cheap removal (read: removal for Delvers) to bring in. But I've been running pretty hot recently and every single card I'm playing has proven its worth several times over at this point (excepting possibly the COP: Red which replaced the second Canonist as a response to a surge of Burn in my local meta ... I know there are a ton of Sulfuric Vortexes around me so I pack the COP, but I've been dodging them somehow). The COP: Red, the Spirit of the Labyrinth, and the Oblivion Ring feel like the only remotely negotiable slots to me. I want to fit a Pithing Needle in, but I'm not sure what I could cut.

For reference, my maindeck is pretty stock, with 22 land (1 Canopy, 3 Karakas, 10 Plains) and a 3/3/2/2/1 split on Wisp/Avenger/Mirran/Mindcensor/Spirit. The maindeck Spirit has ended enough game-1s on the spot that I'm keeping it in ... nobody plays around it when Brainstorming in G1 anymore.

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Originally Posted by Pans-Advocate

I would never leave home without 1 Cataclysm with Miracles at its current position in the meta, and honestly I'd much rather find room for a second. I also think Ratchet Bomb and Manriki-Gusari have really earned their slots. My board right now is:

2 Rest In Peace
2 Cataclysm
2 Wilt-Leaf Leige
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Manriki-Gusari
1 Ratchet Bomb
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Circle of Protection: Red
1 Council's Judgment
1 Oblivion Ring (probably becoming a second Judgment)
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Spirit of the Labyrinth

I feel a little spread thin, specifically in terms of not having a second Canonist and having no additional cheap removal (read: removal for Delvers) to bring in. But I've been running pretty hot recently and every single card I'm playing has proven its worth several times over at this point (excepting possibly the COP: Red which replaced the second Canonist as a response to a surge of Burn in my local meta ... I know there are a ton of Sulfuric Vortexes around me so I pack the COP, but I've been dodging them somehow). The COP: Red, the Spirit of the Labyrinth, and the Oblivion Ring feel like the only remotely negotiable slots to me. I want to fit a Pithing Needle in, but I'm not sure what I could cut.

For reference, my maindeck is pretty stock, with 22 land (1 Canopy, 3 Karakas, 10 Plains) and a 3/3/2/2/1 split on Wisp/Avenger/Mirran/Mindcensor/Spirit. The maindeck Spirit has ended enough game-1s on the spot that I'm keeping it in ... nobody plays around it when Brainstorming in G1 anymore.

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Honestly, the Miracles matchup is already pretty damn good preboard. Unlike most creature archetypes in Legacy, we have an abundance of creatures that can serve as a clock, and cards like Revoker and Mom can give the Miracles opponent a real headache (esp. if they are struggling to find a Terminus). Post board, I'd sooner cut my StPs and my Jitte for 2 Canonist (or 1/1 Canonist/Spirit), 2 Judgment, 1 Needle. Canonist/Spirit increases our density further and provides marginal disruption. Needle stops Top. Judgment deals with problematic bullshit like Humility, Moat, Ensaring Bridge, CB, JTMS, whathaveyou. Or vote for Top if they didn't save it.

As far as Manriki is concerned, you already have Council's Judgment, which is less narrow in application. The mirror is the only matchup where MG is strictly better but even then you want to be addressing your opponents threats with more removal and shutting down their Vial especially if you do not have one of your own.

Ratchet Bomb has some merit as a Tutor target and is good vs Miracles as an out to Angel tokens. However I fail to see the overall use. Beyond maybe Elves and Belcher, I don't know when I'd ever want to bring in the card. It just does not feel like a Legacy card to me--this coming from someone playing a deck of atypical Legacy cards to begin with.

I think I will shave a tutor for more business, resulting in the following SB:

2 RIP
2 Liege
2 Canonist
2 Judgment
1 Tutor
1 Spirit
1 Pithing Needle
1 Cage
1 CoP: Red
1 Cursed Totem/Ensnaring Bridge
1 Path to Exile

My main deck will look something akin to this:

4 Wasteland
4 Port
3 Karakas
10 Plains
1 Canopy
1 Cavern

4 Mom
4 Thalia
4 Revoker
4 SFM
3 Wisp
3 Avenger
2 Crusader
1 Mindcensor
1 Spirit

4 Vial
4 StP
1 Jitte
1 Batterskull
1 SoFI

First time poster on this thread. I've tested intermittently with D&T recently, and have been extremely impressed with it. My first experience was negative, and was not representative of D&T. I played the hatebear version of the deck with Leonin Arbiter, Spirit, Flagstones and Ghost Quarters, and with no Serra Avengers. I didn't practice at all, and faced D&T all day. Making mistakes left and right was entirely my fault.

But since then, I've gained an appreciation for the stock lists. They've been remarkably consistent. The deck is clearly a metagame choice that preys on certain well known strategies.

I haven't read all the pages, and I'm hoping some D&T regulars can chime in on these (basic) questions:

1. What can this deck do vs. Elves? Do we just accept that it is a bad match-up? Is there something better than Spirit + Canonist, or the controversial black splash?

2. I read somewhere that European superstar Thomas E. says D&T is favored against Miracles. Is this true? If so, am I just playing the deck wrong or is it much better with Council's Judgment and Pithing Needle? It seems to me that in control vs. control, Miracles has more staying power. Is D&T meant to be the beatdown, and if so, what changes post-sideboard will help this?

3. European storm aficionado Lemnear suggested Mindbreak Trap as a potential way to stop the turn 1 kills. Is this something that folks have tested for surprise value, or as a limited answer to Elves? Admittedly, most storm decks play Gitaxian Probe for information, but it could be a good buffer tool in the absence of Thalias 5 through 8.

Thanks in advance guys!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Plague Sliver

First time poster on this thread. I've tested intermittently with D&T recently, and have been extremely impressed with it. My first experience was negative, and was not representative of D&T. I played the hatebear version of the deck with Leonin Arbiter, Spirit, Flagstones and Ghost Quarters, and with no Serra Avengers. I didn't practice at all, and faced D&T all day. Making mistakes left and right was entirely my fault.

But since then, I've gained an appreciation for the stock lists. They've been remarkably consistent. The deck is clearly a metagame choice that preys on certain well known strategies.

I haven't read all the pages, and I'm hoping some D&T regulars can chime in on these (basic) questions:

1. What can this deck do vs. Elves? Do we just accept that it is a bad match-up?

2. I read somewhere that European superstar Thomas E. says D&T is favored against Miracles. Is this true? If so, am I just playing the deck wrong or is it much better with Council's Judgment and Pithing Needle? It seems to me that in control vs. control, Miracles has more staying power. Is D&T meant to be the beatdown, and if so, what changes post-sideboard will help this?

3. European storm aficionado Lemnear suggested Mindbreak Trap as a potential way to stop the turn 1 kills. Is this something that folks have tested for surprise value, or as a limited answer to Elves? Admittedly, most storm decks play Gitaxian Probe for information, but it could be a good buffer tool in the absence of Thalias 5 through 8.

Thanks in advance guys!

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I'll try my best to answer your questions; also, welcome to the community! Much like Storm or Goblins, D&T features a dedicated community of players each pushing the archetype forward. Most of them are active on the Salvation thread. However there are plenty Sourcers who I am sure will be more than willing to give tips, advice or any other guidance.

So! The questions.

1) There are thing you can do to improve the matchup but, unlike most matchups, there is no one good hate card. I am partial to gravedigger's cage. It hits GSZ and NO while also serving as decent hate against flashback/dredge. Ethersworn Canonist does a lot of work; chalice of the void is rarer but more of a hoser. Maindeck Aven Mindcensor is a decent enough hatebear, though not comparable to say Thalia vs Storm. Revoker should name Heritage Druid is proactively cast. Obviously he can hit anything in your way (Symbiote, etc).

Elves is a matchup that is bad but can be made better with tight play and trusting developed instincts. I have beaten them with Thalia before because then could not cast NO. I recommend play testing extensively, especially with a human opponent.

2) It very much is but, a lot like the Tempo matchup, you can't play into their strategy. Never overcommit; always make their wipes garbage. Abuse vial. Needle, Judgment and Cataclysm are all good. Top is obviously enemy no. 1. Thalia + Karakas + Vial @ 2 is enough to win most games. If you run Brimaz, you'll trounce them.

3. MBT is problematic for me because it is ONLY good vs fast sequence combo and, even then, it's not particularly great. Most of the time we want to advance our board state with each creature providing a new wall of the prison we keep our opponent in. MBT, while an answer to a certain condition of the game, does not serve our prison plan. It can create a false sense of security, sitting in your hand only to be therapied away before the Tendrils/NO or baited out only for another dagger to be produced. Yes it can get us to turn two in theory, but it's the same thinking that keeps Leyline of Sanctity in SneakShow sideboards--except that that deck has a much different style of play.

Judge's Familiar comes to mind if you're looking for turn one hate. However I find that we often have enough time to slam a Thalia before they assemble their pieces.

If you have a list or any other questions, please feel free to share them!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Barbed Blightning

2) It very much is but, a lot like the Tempo matchup, you can't play into their strategy. Never overcommit; always make their wipes garbage. Abuse vial. Needle, Judgment and Cataclysm are all good. Top is obviously enemy no. 1. Thalia + Karakas + Vial @ 2 is enough to win most games. If you run Brimaz, you'll trounce them.

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Obviously I need to test, but in theory Brimaz isn't needed. The vial/karakas tricks with Thalia seem enough, and they can never block the 2/1 first striker. Unless you're thinking that Brimaz is a faster clock and ends the game more quickly.

You're right about Vial, though -- it's a key card, and reminds me of the Merfolk vs. Countertop days. Although 'Folk has a faster clock.

I'm a fan of the maindeck Revoker, so I think that saves us some slots in the sideboard with Pithing Needle.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Plague Sliver

Obviously I need to test, but in theory Brimaz isn't needed. The vial/karakas tricks with Thalia seem enough, and they can never block the 2/1 first striker. Unless you're thinking that Brimaz is a faster clock and ends the game more quickly.

You're right about Vial, though -- it's a key card, and reminds me of the Merfolk vs. Countertop days. Although 'Folk has a faster clock.

I'm a fan of the maindeck Revoker, so I think that saves us some slots in the sideboard with Pithing Needle.

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Brimaz fulfills the beatstick/combat disruption role. Although he appears vanilla, against creature deck and even Tempo he is a scary card as he makes attacking prohibitive and blocking difficult. Also, in terms of raw damage output vs combo/control, he's faster than Crusader--supposing you count the Simba tokens. However he is not necessary.

Here's a basic 60 I'd start with:

10 Plains
3 Karakas
4 Port
4 Wasteland
1 Canopy
1 Cavern

4 Vial
4 StP
1 Jitte
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire & Ice

4 Mom
4 Thalia
4 Revoker
4 Stoneforge
3 Flickerwisp
3 Serra Avenger
2 Mindcensor
2 Crusader

Sideboard is tailored to the meta; however, this is reasonable for an Open/large event:

2 RIP
2 Canonist
2 Liege
2 Judgment
2 Cataclysm
2 Spirit of the Labyrinth
1 Pithing Needle
1 Cage
1 Path to Exile

My buddy Colin Logan just took down SCG Kansas City with this:

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=70522

4 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Aven Mindcensor
3 Flickerwisp
4 Mother of Runes
3 Serra Avenger
4 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Spirit of the Labyrinth
1 Brimaz, King of Oreskos
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben

10 Plains
1 Horizon Canopy
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
1 Eiganjo Castle
3 Karakas

4 Aether Vial
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Umezawa's Jitte

Sideboard:
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Manriki-Gusari
1 Meekstone
1 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Wilt-Leaf Liege
1 Moat
2 Oblivion Ring
2 Rest in Peace
2 Enlightened Tutor
2 Cataclysm

There will be good coverage of him vs Lands, BUG Delver, and a finals match vs RUG Delver.