Fun fact: Mask'd True-Name's are one of the very few ways to make them not have protection. Even when they turn face-up.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fallen_Empire
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Fun fact: Mask'd True-Name's are one of the very few ways to make them not have protection. Even when they turn face-up.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fallen_Empire
I'm going to be trolling my LGS in September with this list:
4x Delver of Secrets
4x Phyrexian Dreadnought
2x Nimble Obstructionist
2x Snapcaster Mage
4x Brainstorm
4x Stifle
4x Lightning Bolt
4x Standstill
4x Daze
2x Spell Pierce
2x Spell Snare
1x Fling
1x Trickbind
2x Counterspell
3x Scalding Tarn
3x Flooded Strand
2x Steam Vents
4x Island
1x Mountain
4x Wasteland
3x Mishra’s Factory
Sideboard
4x Misdirection
3x Pyroblast
2x Sower of Temptation
3x Smash to Smithereens
2x Surgical Extraction
1x Torpor Orb
The Torpor Orb is anti-synergistic with Snaps, but that's a small thing. I think the red offers better removal than Dismember, reach, and allows for a combo with Fling. I don't have Force of Will, but that is really isn't a reason to avoid the deck (I don't think.) Against some decks Force gets boarded out anyways. T1 combo decks will be a problem, but at least I have Surgical for reanimator. Overall, I'm really happy with how Stifle is situated in my local meta-game.
EDIT: Fling has been excellent. Seriously debating a 2nd copy.
Finally got tired of UW Standstill (where the only lesson is you should just be playing UWr miracles), and decided to enter the fist again with this 3-0 list for tonight:
Dreadnought x3
Delver x4
SCM x2
Big Grimmz x2
Standstill x4
Illus. Mask x1
Brainstorm x4
FoW x4
Stifle x4
Daze x4
Bolt x3
Izzet Charm x2
Wild Slash x1
Trickbind x1
Island x2
Mountain x1
Volc. x3
Tarn x4
blue Fetch x3
Wasteland x4
Factory x4
SB:
Pyroblast x2
Surgical x2
Divert x2
Abrade x2
Misdirection x1
Teferi's Realm x1
Teferi's Response x1
Mind Bend x1 (expecting Choke)
Torpor Orb x1
Chandra, ToD x2
R1 vs DnT (2-1). Mull to 4 game 1 just to find land, don't win that one. Game 2 vs their mull, Dreadnought gets a hit in early before dying, game goes long as opponent gets a few Batterskull hits while my hand is mono red cards and no red mana; once I hit mana to unload hand I eventually get there. Game 3 I have to mull a no-lander again...opponent makes some questionable attacks in extra turns and dies to a topdeck Bolt on turn 5 of turns. Should probably have been a loss even though opponent was bringing in RiP against a deck that only has 4 cards that kinda care; if that were a creature I think they win easily.
R2 vs UWr miracles (1-0-1). Game 1 I don't see any Dreadnought stuff, but do see Factories and Standstills; the opponent doesn't win b/c they can't find Counterbalance [primary reason] and decide to ram Mentor and backup FoW into two hardcast Daze. Game 2 is incredibly annoying, have to follow the stupid gameplan of Duress StP with not-Factory creature, Surgical StP and play idiocy the gathering where all I do is keep cards in hand until opponent either exposes SCM into a Surgical (Trickbind to sunder the connection between first attempt to recast a red blast) or finds & tries to actually resolve a Counterbalance - their planeswalkers I could care less about. Game goes to time because of course it does; the only gameplan is keep CB from landing then Surgical it; failing that Surgical the StP and SCM. Opponent was unable to do anything of note with Mentors due to a Grim Lavamancer that wasn't leaving the table unless they Terminus their army.
R3 vs B/R Reanimonster (2-1). I win the die roll and they don't have Chancellor; Turn 1 Delver into turn 2 Standstill w/ Factory almost gets there but no permission vs them drawing pretty perfect after choosing to go Sire first reanimation target (after that they get Chancellor, discard to trigger, exhume the flying blocker, and b/c no Fetchland I have no red mana and have to discard things like lethal Bolt and Grim Lavamancer, which they do Reanimate). Game 2 I have Factory, Island and mono permission...they keep Thoughtseizing me and I don't stop topdecking permission so Factory + Thoughtseize life loss get there. Game 3 they have Chancellor but no turn 1 play, so I get Fetch down and get to Daze the Coll. Brutality [discards Grisel] opponent can't topdeck business + discard so a Delver gets joined by a Dreadnought with some permission being exchanged leading up the this point.
Liked the extra burn from Chandra vs miracles and DnT. Definitely missed Commandeer tonight since there were 2x B/R and 1x SnS in the room out of eight decks. While Dack was always great fun, Chandra the value vortex is more in-line with what we're trying to do. Wanted to run a Price of Progress and Sulfur Elemental [or Staticaster] in the board, but no more space sadly. Playing against B/R was the best part of the night, these games are always wild, powerful, and often highly un-intuitive for both sides.
How good is Jace TMS in this deck? Is he worth any slots main/side? Without Force of will I'm a little nervous about the Miracles matchup, but resolving a Jace seems very good against them.
Would rather have a card they can't Pyroblast. Against the infinite value of a Counterbalance drawing cards doesn't really matter. Looking at their top of deck is nice, but not when you play into Blast (this is why Ashiok has never been played to any success vs UWr Counterbalance combo). Chandra-ToD is the better walker as it offers burn and is a real threat under a Standstill. I would rate Chandra-ToD, Last Hope, Teferi, Karn, and even Nissa of the 5/5s all as better than JTMS since you'd just doing the same thing in a worse (more disruptable~sequence dependent) shell. Jace is also in many ways just a worse Azcanta in a deck that can easily protect it from Wasteland.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Safety
Thanks for the response. I'm taking my list tomorrow night to an FNM to test it out. When I took mono-blue I went 3-1, losing only one match to D&T. My meta-game has a ton of that deck, so splashing red should really boost that matchup (Bolt kills just about everything.) I made a small change in my sideboard accordingly, putting 2x Firespout in there. It should be very good against D&T and the other creature decks that tend to show up.
I think I might run Dreadstill at the GP. I'm teetering between a few decks, and since I've been running Landstill for a few months, I figure why the hell not.
Is there Legacy at the GP? Ill be playing in the main event.
It's a Legacy GP (Richmond) at the end of this month, yep.
Commander 2018 cards with text & worth buying if cheap:
-Enchanter's Bane red anti-enchantment is incredibly rare (this is the first without color stipulation?).
-Night Incarnate this is sideboard playable, but a UB build should have access to Massacre + Vision Charm (if they need to alt-cast). It's the magus of Yahenni's Expertise with slightly more graveyard interactions.
-Retrofitter Foundry probably a good enough card to bring in from the board if a Dreadnought comes out. Sadly does not make Assembly Workers.
-Estrid's Invocation build-around potential, nothing [that helps with Dreadnought] worth copying yet exists at legacy costs.
-Xantcha, Sleeper Agent not really for Dreadnought (bad colors), but it is worth noting that this card plays nicely with Torpor Orb.
-Tawnos, Urza's Apprentice not for us but worth buying if cheap.
-Ravenous Slime legacy playable, not sure what deck it would go in (green + targeted destroy) but you'd be trying to disrupt K-Comm/Strix/SCM more than anything. Worse than Anafenza, the Foremost but less color restrictive.
Honorable Dreadnought mentions:
-Ancient Stone Idol honorable mention for obvious reasons.
-Primordial Mist if 4 mana, maybe. Don't like being Pyroblast'able and being generally worse than Mastery of the Unseen
Honorable generic mentions:
-Varchild, Betrayer of Kjeldor not good enough but hilarious, obvious combo with Varchild's War-Riders (War-Riders is like a $1 card, this is a stupid spike to $10)
-Bloodtracker magus of the Greed. Garbage card, but I genuinely like the design.
-Endless Atlas not really for Dreadnought, but worth picking up a few if under a dollar. Merfolk probably would probably want this more than anyone with their basic Islands and ability to Phantasmal a Mutavault. Direct competition with Smuggler's Copter though.
-Sower of Discord combo with Ancient Tomb (you'd of course gain life with Inventor's Fair to break Symmetry). Too expensive and lacks evasion, but we see life shenanigans' cmcs slowly dropping.
Don't see much value in the PWs from this set in legacy, the closest to playable is Aminatou, the Fateshifter; the problem here is that Tundra can't beat Counterbalance and the Counterbalance decks run Pyroblast so....uh yeah, pointless. I'm sure people will also hype Yuriko, the Tiger's Shadow which comes in as a generically worse CA engine than Shadowmage Infiltrator/Dark Confidant/Lilly, Last Hope; unless you really want to play Ninjas, don't pay more than like $2 for this.
Looking only at cards specific to this set and applicable to legacy, I don't really see any effect that should cost more than like $3. Assuming they have low initial costs, the best investments look like Tawnos and Xantcha. Don't really see legacy strategies coming along anytime soon to really spike their prices, but both play nicely with Baleful Strix-style magic so the potential is there. Beyond that there could be this idea of a Dreadnought-ish deck where you try to cheese wins off Sol Land/Chalice (probably), combo Varchild's War-Riders with Varchild herself and then at some point you're deciding to win more by having survivor tokens under someone's control attacking and unlocking Ancient Stone Idol; I don't think this is good enough for legacy when you could have done about the same thing and gone Sneak Attack -> Worldspine Wurm.
So I hit 2 weekly events recently with Dreadstill, an FNM and a Sunday weekly. Both were 4 rounds, both were quite educational. FNM I was playing with the budget red splash, and I went 1-3 (boo) winning against Goryo's Vengeance/Show and Tell combo, losing to Enchantress, Black and Taxes, and Death and Taxes. The red splash was pretty bad, especially considering I was only on 20 lands. I quickly scrapped the red splash, added the 4th Factory and land 21, and went 3-1 on Sunday, winning against Death and Taxes (Torpor Orb is amazing), Eldrazi Cloudpost, and mono-green Stompy-ish deck (homebrew, uncounterable green threats + Chalice in the board.) My only loss was to UB Death's Shadow (thanks PT), which was very close. I won game 1 off a t1 stifle on his fetch. He never draws another land, is stuck with 3 cantrips in hand. I lost a close g2 where my one Dreadnought was holding off 3 Death's Shadows. He's at 1, I have the ability to win if I topdeck a Vapor Snag, but I whiff. G3 I mulligan to oblivion, 5 on the play, and I stabilize with Ratchet Bomb. I also cashed in on a bunch of unused cards, nabbing me $650 in store credit (apparently I had some EDH cards that were really valuable like Survival of the Fittest and Rings of Brighthearth.) So budget is not a barrier anymore. I snatched up their only Force of Will with the plan of getting 3 more when the come in.
I'll spare you the red list, it was posted a page back. I'm 100% committed to the mono-blue list, it's just so much more stable and Dismember does so much work.
4x Delver of Secrets
4x Phyrexian Dreadnought
1x Nimble Obstructionist
4x Brainstorm
4x Vapor Snag
4x Stifle
2x Spell Snare
1x Spell Pierce
4x Daze
4x Standstill
3x Counterspell
1x Torpor Orb
1x Trickbind
2x Dismember
4x Mishra's Factory
4x Wasteland
4x Flooded Strand
3x Scalding Tarn
6x Island
Sideboard
2x Surgical Extraction
4x Misdirection
2x Sower of Temptation
2x Ratchet Bomb
1x Dismember
1x Echoing Truth
1x Dispel
2x Pithing Needle
I noticed I had really strong games where I could land a Torpor Orb (nuts against D&T.) It would have helped greatly against Death's Shadow as well, letting me play and protect my Dreadnoughts. I will definitely be slotting in a 2nd Torpor Orb after I find one. For now, I dropped a Counterspell for a Force of Will. Once I get the set I'll reconfigure it, probably dropping the Spell Pierce entirely (possibly going to the sideboard.) I have a couple questions to the group:
1) Can I afford to play Academy Ruins? It seems super greedy with 8 non-blue lands already, but it could be fantastic at creating card advantage with Ratchet Bomb/Dreadnought/Torpor Orb.
2) Do you always board out Daze on the draw? I've been aggressively boarding them out on the draw for Misdirection or extra removal. Spell Snare obviously shines on the draw, Counterspell is awkward on the draw, but overall I'm not sure if it's correct. Some decks are super lean that Daze on the draw isn't always dead, but it did set me back on development a couple games.
3) I have also been boarding out my Standstills in some matchups; is this correct? Against D&T I tend to leave in 2 Standstills (because I board in Needles for vial.)
4) With Torpor Orbs, is Hunted Phantasm good enough to attempt? Hunted Horror is obviously better, but I'm not in black. Also looking at Eater of Days as another Torpor Orb trick.
5) Eldrazi Mimic and Warping Wail both seem to be decent cards, although Mimic seems to go a little too deep on Dreadnought. Wail does a lot: counters a spell, makes a token, or removes a dude.
6) Has this thread discussed Stubborn Denial or Not of this World yet? Thoughts on those conditional counterspells?
1) Too slow, Daze deck, and already have 8 colorless lands. If you have any recursive elements like Snapcaster/JVP you'll get more from Noxious Revival.
2) As a general rule if they have no basics (Delver variants) or are an aggressive combo deck I usually leave in all/most Dazes.
3) Standstill can often be shaved, particularly when opponents have manland/Wasteland, game actions (Ichorid), or Vial. Against fair decks that cast threats, probably don't go below 3.
4) I wouldn't advise stacking up effects like that. Not only does consistency drop, but you also impede Delver to the point of unplayable...once this happens you're very quickly a Sol Land/Chalice deck doing one monotonous simple trick (similar to Big Eldrazi).
5) Mimic is Sol Land only, I've covered the reasons behind that somewhere in this thread. Warping Wail is playable, but colored spells are generally better. In your list it'd probably come in for an amount of Vapor Snag.
6) Those two spells fall into the UB family of Dreadnought, which usually use Petal. Stubborn requires non-Dreadnought ferocious threats (keyword delve) to reach adequate levels of ferocious density (6-7 cards). Not of this World is fine but generally antagonistic to the most powerful thing you can do in UB: Dark Confidant.
Big thanks! So far I've been doing really well with the deck, even if the results aren't truly giving me an idea of how good it is in the larger metagame; I only play locally, that's the metagame I care about.
I also have this in the back of my mind...which is probably no good, but man, I really want to try it:
4x Phyrexian Dreadnought
2x Dark Depths
1x Nimble Obstructionist
4x Brainstorm
4x Stifle
4x Standstill
4x Daze
1x Force of Will
3x Not of this World
1x Trickbind
1x Torpor Orb
3x Expedition Map
4x Vapor Snag
3x Scalding Tarn
4x Flooded Strand
6x Island
4x Wasteland
4x Mishra’s Factory
2x Thespian’s Stage
1x Tolaria West
Mr. Safety, nice idea, but Dark Depth's 10 ice counters is not a triggered ability. It's the same as Endless One or walking balista. You can't stifle the counters they put one there while entering the battlefield.
Oh I know that Depths doesn't combo with Orb/Stifle. That isn't the point...the point is I have Brainstorm/Standstill/Map/TWest to find the combo pieces as an alternative to Dreadnought as a win condition. Instead of t1 Delver/Stifle, t2 Standstill it's t1 Map/Stifle, t2 Standstill. I can also activate Stage + Depths under standstill, which allows me to draw even deeper to find NotW/Force/Daze to protect Marit Lage if they have an answer to it (StP, Diabolic Edict.) It's essentially Factory on steroids. In the event they somehow deal with Depths/Stage I can use maps/West to find Factory's/Wastelands. I can also activate Tolaria west as a tutor under a standstill, because transmute is an activated ability. This essentially replaces Pithing Needle with Stifle in the turbo depths list (to protect from Wasteland/Karakas), plays a mana denial strategy to make them stumble in the early game, then hits them with a 12/12 trampler or a 20/20 flyer.Quote:
Originally Posted by Xod
Does Sundial of the Infinite combo with Dark Depths? I imagine it doesn't or people would have already tried it, but hey, if it works I could use that with my Dreadnoughts, too.
EDIT: Wasteland protects from Karakas while under standstill as well. Maindeck factories protect against Edict.
EDIT #2: TNN solves a lot of problems in the mono-blue list with Delvers, too. I might nab some of those.
If you're doing Depths + Dreadnought, the most important piece to maximize and build around is Vampire Hexmage as it provides maindeck PW killing and Chalice neutralization (just don't use Ill. Mask). I don't think it's good enough to build around, but it is the most unique gain of function.
Sundial does not work with Dark Depths, the cheapest card would be Alpine Moon in a deck that had some way to pick up or kill its own enchantment.
The cheapest card is Curfew and Surgical Extraction on Dark Depths
Played U/W Stiflenought tonight at the weekly... Went 2-2
2-1 Against Astral Slide. Pretty sure we were the only table on the planet playing that match up this week...
0-2 Against Infect (Got greedy cast dreadnought with stifle, only to have it hit with Vines of Vastwood in response).
0-2 Against Show and Tell. Kept crap hands, not sure it would have mattered in the end. A bad match up in general.
2-0 Against Eldrazi. Devastating wastelands + creature beats gets us there.
All in all a lot of fun, i agree I think the U/W list still needs a few pieces.
That's not how this game works. Stifle targets an ability, not a permanent.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fallen_Empire
I stifled the triggerQuote:
Originally Posted by Hopo
And still lost with a Dreadnought on board, even after they wasted their pump spell on it? :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Fallen_Empire
(hint: Vines does nothing to the Stifle on the TRIGGER)
You don't think Map + Depths + Stage is enough? I admit it can be slow, but Standstill slows games down already. I just figured it would get me out of unwinnable games by making either a 12/12 trampler or a 20/20 indestructible flyer. All of the tools to protect Marit Lage are in there: Stifle for Wastelands, Wasteland for Karakas/Maze of Ith, Force of Will/Daze/Stubborn Denial/Not of this World to protect the big threats. It can play a slow Standstill game with Factories and Standstill or play a fast Dreadnought with protection, or a fast Marit Lage with protection. Maybe what you mean is it's too greedy and there will be non-games when I don't draw the correct pieces? I figure Brainstorm and Standstill do a decent job of digging into combos, or Tolaria West/Map finding the pieces.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fox
I think Stage copying Mishra's Factory is actually decent, too. It allows me to play 6 factories.
I figured, I re-read the card and it doesn't stop state-based effects like DD entering with 10 ice counters. It would work with Dreadnought, but I can't live the dream and use it on both Dreadnought andDepths.Quote:
Sundial does not work with Dark Depths, the cheapest card would be Alpine Moon in a deck that had some way to pick up or kill its own enchantment.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yan
Play phyrexian dreadnought
Because sac'ing 12 power sucks, decide to cast Stifle to stifle the sac trigger.
In response to me playing Stifle, opponent casts Vines of Vastwood on the dreadnought, not to pump it, but to prevent me from targeting my own creature till end of turn, thus preventing the Stifle from doing anything.
But Dreadnought isn't being targeted, his trigger is being targeted. The trigger is a separate entity on the stack. I don't think Vines works here, actually, but I am not a judge.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fallen_Empire
@Fallen_Empire: you got hussled 😁
But seriously the other fellas are right, vines prevents to target the creature from a spell or an equip. Stifle always targets an ability, not the card itself.
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...57#post1054357
I am pretty serious about testing out this Depths/Dreadnought list. It's a weird combination of landstill with combos...and potentially absolute garbage. But it looks fun as hell, so I'm game to try it out. If anyone has any ideas for how to go about it, please, feel free to post.
I actually like the idea of this. Not that I would play it over the regular UR versions, because I just like my bolts and lavamancers more. But I think it has potential and it looks fun too and you don't need to sell your kidney to get those Volcanic Islands.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Safety
You got a bad market for selling kidneys, I get AT LEAST Underground Sea's for mine :cool:Quote:
Originally Posted by Yan
I have done a few goldfish games, it's not looking good. I really need lotus petals, which take up valuable disruption slots. Maybe it's time to consider cutting daze for lotus petal.
I was also eyeballing cryptic serpent as another "delve" threat that enables Stubborn Denial. I'm convinced stub is a legit legacy card, and I'm trying to make it work, lol. With stubs I can probably afford to lose the dazes in the depths list. Honestly, i'm starting to question daze in this deck at all. It protects a t1 delver and pitches to force after that. It's probably a necessary evil though, admittedly.
I had plenty of opportunities to fetch both lands, I just didn't have enough mana. This is quite the puzzle. I'll get a list posted as soon as I play more than a handful of gamrs.
You should pay more attention to reading and playing. This has been said many times already but you just keep repeating your wrong interpretation. Vines prevents targeting the creature. Stifle does not target permanents.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fallen_Empire
Play nought. Ability triggers.
Play Stifle, targeting the trigger.
Opponent responds by casting Vines targeting nought.
Vines resolves, nought has shroud'ish.
Stifle resolves, trigger is countered.
You have a nought.
This time your opponent got you good. Next time you know better and can even explain this to your opponent or even better, call a judge.
In testing, I feel that even with Lotus Petals the Depths idea is fairly weak. I started to go deep by adding Elvish Spirit Guide and Crop Rotation...but at that point it needs to be dedicated to the combo with disruption (8 discard, 3 Pithing Needles) and there just isn't enough room to squeeze in everything to make it work. Duress is infinitely better than Daze at protecting during the combo turn. To be reliable it actually isn't really that compact of a combo. To really streamline it, I would need 4x Depths/Stage, have to give up on Wasteland/Factories, and at that point Standstill is probably just a worse Sylvan Library. If I was getting decent results, even while slow, I would stick to it and work on it. For now I'll let it incubate and go back to Delver.
Definitely want to try out Cryptic Serpent though, in my attempt to make Stubborn Denial a legacy card. I have been disappointed with Spell Pierce (moved to sideboard) but Denial can play that role early game and be a hard counter once Dreadnought/Serpent are on the table. I think I need at least 2 Serpents, maybe 3, to pull off 2x Stub.
If you explore the green splash a bit further, dreadnought really benefits from Blossoming Defense or Vines of Vastwood especially against Abrupt Decay. That is one more angle to try in my to-do-list.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Safety
I don't think it's viable to splash a color and maintain the colorless land base (Factory/Wasteland) unless I'm getting a more reliable payoff (Tarmogoyf really.) In order to accomplish mana stability I would have to add lands, and that cuts down on business, which makes Standstill worse.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hopo
EDIT: Seriously debating Search for Azcanta in this deck. It's another great t2 play that can really help smooth out games. Will try 1 instead of a Dismember, and if it's good enough, I'll drop something else for a 2nd copy.
Not too surprised by the Depths/Dreadnought experiment, you're two/three plans don't really overlap. I think the result was predictable based on just Depths/Standstill not being the greatest way to begin deckbuilding, and this is before adding Dreadnoughts. When you're mashing a second strategy into Dreadnought, there's a requisite amount of synergy you need to achieve before going further in deck design. This process generally starts by dropping or heavily downplaying the Standstill plan.
Any time we're looking at UG, you have to compare suggestions to the raw power level of possible strategies which don't yet exist at legacy-viable costs. Options include:
-2 mana instant: sac a dude, draw cards equal to power or toughness. Does not yet exist.
-my deck operates without untap steps, I play Stasis, and I'm gonna start phasing things out. Here you'd need skip untap steps on a better card, does not yet exist.
-highly specialized Ill. Mask deck. Too complex to summarize quickly, the main point though is that the cards which would make this deck operate quick enough for legacy do not yet exist.
If the point of green is protecting effects on an in-play Dreadnought, you have to compare those directly to staying blue with Vision Charm or Not of this World or Apostle's Blessing. The simplest scenario above defines what green needs to provide vs opponent trying to kill Dreadnought: drawing 12 cards. Looking into green for the Crop Rot and potentially ESG stuff, I think the target land has to say "T: counter targeted triggered ability generated by a creature," or that land could just be....let's call it "Torpor Vale." Green just isn't there yet... :frown:
I'm really interested and am appreciative of the nuance involved with the Mask/Nought trickery. Your knowledge and experience shouldn't be lost if you have real anecdotal tips and tricks. I'll be waiting until you share your secret knowledge... Regretfully, you may be correct about the cards not existing but the allure is still too great to turn away... the 75 isn't settled, I'll continue to tinker and brew...Quote:
Originally Posted by Fox
There aren't that many vaults of knowledge to draw upon when it comes to stiflenought in 2018. We're two deep worldwide, maybe three with Mr. Safety :cool:
Oracle Fox - You are like the Marcel Griaule of the 12/12 community. An expert in the ways of the Mask. Respect for taking the time to observe the intricacies of the obscure.
Has nobody ever tried
Phyrexian Dreadnought + Torpor Orb + Whir of Invention ?
I think one of the best ways to protect a 12/12 creature to play it istant speed.
Another very good protection for the big 12/12 is Spellskite
------ Different argument of discussion ------
If I would mix another strategy with the Phyrexian Dreadnought and Stifle,
it would probabely be Painter's Servant + Grindstone
Because they share the nice possibility of using:
Whir of Invention &/or Reverse Engineer &/or Spellskite &/or Vision Charm
Maybe a deck like that could be viable ?
1 Seat of The Synod
2 Ancient Tomb
2 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
7 Island
4 Chrome Mox (the second and third can be played without imprinting ... they still work with Improvise mechanics)
2 Torpor Orb
4 Relic of Progenitus &/or Retrofitter Foundry
3 Grindstone
1 Padeem, Consul of Innovation or Zahid, Djinn of the Lamp
2 Spellskite
3 Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 Painter's Servant
3 Force of Will
2 Vision Charm
2 Stifle
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
4 Reverse Engineer
3 Whir of Invention
Note that Torpor Orb does NOT stop Painter's Servant (It says "As..." and not "When...")
You're right, but I wanted to try, lol. I'm stubborn at innovation attempts. Everything you say makes sense, and I realized it was basically 'I wish I was still playing Depths'. So I rebuilt G/B Depths, lol.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fox
More than anything else, the lack of Force of Will is what is holding back my progress with the deck. Every game I ripped into Force I was able to pull out either with Delver or Factories. I gotta get those other 3 copies. Once I get those I'll probably lose the fascination with trying so hard to make Stubborn Denial work. Cryptic Serpent is still a decent idea to test, but I don't think I could play more than 2 copies, and once I get those in what do I cut for Stubborn Denial? Spell Snare? Dismember? I'm not sure where to go with it at that point, I'll have to cross that bridge when I get there.
Putting Spell Pierce to the sideboard was also very helpful, and I finally dropped the Nimble Obstructionist plan. It's great at what it does, and maybe I'll work it in again, but Search for Azcanta in the few test games I've played has been incredible. It's too bad it doesn't get any of the threats, but the card advantage is impressive. I'm playing 2 copies ATM, but I could see -1 Search/+1 Nimble if I end up with awkward draws. It's quite possibly the best 5th copy of Standstill while having less inherent risk than Standsill.
@frustanini your list has lots of inconsistency (Chrome Mox ramps this problem up) and very little protection. Lower protection would be fine except all your realistic wincons (7 between Painter and Dreadnought) can't really compete vs Snapcaster + removal spell playsets. All these wincons require two cards, and your protective on-board pieces keep putting you further away from winning (slight exception for Torpor Orb). The result is an unhappy mix of inconsistency and negative CA.
Outside of Whir of Invention and Reverse Engineer these two strategies generally fail to intersect and play off eachother. Whir of Invention has to be compared quite directly to Aether Vial for purpose of instant speed, uncounterable, mana positive, and playing nicely with Reverse Engineer. I definitely think there is enough raw CA with Thoughtcast and Reverse Engineer (and Metallic Rebuke and the 4/4 hexproof) to create blue Ancient Tomb deck...I'm just not sure Dreadnought + Painter/Stone work together and also take advantage of the improvise mechanic. Walking Ballista is probably the preferred creature in an improvise deck.
The difference between Aether Vial and Whir of Invention is a lotQuote:
Originally Posted by Fox
- with Vial you need the creature in hand (so 2 cards), with Whir in your deck
- if you topdeck Vial you do notting with it. Whir is an awesome topdeck
- Vial can put into play only creature. Whir in my list can take 23 cards.
- Whir makes you virtually play with more winning condition and allow you to win throught a Chalice of the Void@1
Ad for the protection issue. You may better read the list and compare it to other lists. Protection are more, and Spellskite can be played even before you play an important creature. Not to mention he is playable via Whir of Invention and protect one of your pieces from Abrupt Decay or Jace, The Mind Sculptor etc.
How many counters do you think you can play vs 4 Snapcaster Mage decks ? Don't you better play relic of progenitus (which can be a cantrip, while slowing nearly any decks around). Not only there are more protections, but also more threats.
For sure a list like the one I proposed is slower than usual lists.
Generally I think Phyrexian Dreadnought to be a week strategy. While Painter is stronger (don't pass throught combat phase, takes 1 turn to kill, don't need to play 2 cards in the same moment, can kill in response to remouvals etc.) and works perfectly with Whir of Invention. So why not abusing of that blue card to make Dreadnought strategy more solid and stable ?
Consistency also means:
- not dying from a Ensnaring Bridge
- not dying from a Chalice of the Void
- not dying from a Abrupt Decay
- not needing 4 cards in hand to play and protect something: Phyrexian Dreadnought + Stifle + Force of Will + a blue pitch
etc.
Spell Snare has proven it's value many times to me. I wouldn't play a list with less than 2 copies, especially considering the prevalence of 2 mana cards in the format. This deck tends to struggle slightly on the draw; Spell Snare really fills a strong role here.Quote:
Originally Posted by frustanani
I completely disagree. I was playing against Death's Shadow and I was literally holding off 2 Death's Shadows and a Gurmag Angler with one Dreadnought. If he attacks, he loses a creature and I crack back. Trample is fairly rare in legacy and it completely fucks up combat math. It demolishes strategies that depend on small blockers from Young Pyromancer or creatures that block infinitely like True Name Nemesis. I single Dreadnought swings the game absurdly in your favor against Death and Taxes. Along with Delver it's an efficient threat backed by Standstill and free countermagic. The notion that Dreadnought is a weak strategy is nonsense, and doesn't play out in practicality. The decks with bigger threats (Dark Depths and Eldrazi) get completely destroyed by Stifle/Trickbind/Torpor Orb. The decks with faster threats (Delver variants) can't handle a 12/12 trampler. The only really difficult matchup is Miracles, but even Terminus is foiled by Stifle/Trickbind (not saying this is a good matchup, but it isn't unwinnable either, and certainly doesn't negate the raw power of Dreadnought.)Quote:
Consistency is:Quote:
Consistency also means:
- not dying from a Ensnaring Bridge
- not dying from a Chalice of the Void
- not dying from a Abrupt Decay
- not needing 4 cards in hand to play and protect something: Phyrexian Dreadnought + Stifle + Force of Will + a blue pitch
etc.
-countering their first turn play and resolving a Standstill
-getting virtual card advantage with Standstill by slowing their game plan down
-drawing 3 cards and having access to free countermagic
-having a strong mana-denial package alongside card draw, cheap threats, and Brainstorm
If you play this deck and perpetually lose to Abrupt Decay, Chalice of the Void, or Ensnaring Bridge you really need to learn how to play around cards that beat you. Not only that, you need to look at your deck as 75, not 60. Misdirection, Ratchet Bomb, Engineered Explosives, Echoing Truth, and Abrade are just the short list of cards that address those issues. Oh yeah, and we have Brainstorm/Standstill to draw consistently into those sideboard cards. I'm not here to pick a fight, but your Painter list is fairly unique and doesn't really fall into the Dreadstill zone. I suggest going to the mono-blue Painter thread and getting some better feedback; the strategy is wildly different, even if some of the cards overlap.