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Still an awesome job, Ben.
Basically, you went 4-0-1 to the more popular stuff and 0-0-2 with the obscure rogue decks, look at it that way, haha.
CounterTop got a lot more annoying with Progenitus in the mix, and I guess before Sunday I'm going to need to find a slot for Humility in the MD somewhere. Sigh, and right when I thought 2WW sweepers were a thing of the past :tongue:
I've lost the last GPT Madrid in the finals, losing to Merfolk (also lost to Merfolk in the swiss). Played UWb Wish version.
Its so horrible of a match up, and no, Plagues don't really help.
Ha, thanks! :cool:Quote:
Originally Posted by Morbid-
Humility has definitely been solid for me. I'm not sure if I'm going to keep it at 2x in the Main Deck, as I did miss not having a Crucible in the Main, but if I do take out one I'm certainly putting the second in the Side.
Lately it seems as though if you want to win regularly, you need to be slamming down Iona's (reanimator/survival/ichorid) or Progenitus's (countertop, survival, dream halls), or have plentiful answers for each.
Speaking of Iona, I playtested the reanimator matchup against Eli for a couple hours the other day... the ratio was simply awful, something like 80/20 in their favor, even post board.
After discussing it I'm considering a few changes that could potentially aid the matchup, I may end up doing some of them, all of them or none of them, let me know what you all think, keep in mind this is all theoretical and in relation to my current list on the previous page:
- Removing MM/Canonist/Negate from the sideboard for 4x Counterbalance. CB I think can be a more versitle answer to more things in general. It has the potential to lock out reanimator/canadian thresh, and it solves the random mono-red burn if you ever run into it (worth thinking about when looking ahead to something big like the StarCity series in VA.). I will assuredly miss the 2/2 beater against combo though, so we'll have to see how this works out.
- Removing my beloved foily signed Fact or Fictions for new Jace. I'm really not convinced here yet, but I'm willing to try. It's a maindeck non-white answer to Iona which can certainly complicate things for them, and unanswered he will probably just win the control mirror. I haven't been thrilled with FoF lately. My deck does not have any main deck recursion to make splits difficult for them and picking between answers you need right now, and threats you will definitely need later, always sucks. Something to replace them, still give me CA and still is pitchable to FoW seems solid. Whether or not instant versus sorcery turns out to be a major factor remains to be seen.
- Dropping the black splash for +1 Island and +1 Karakas, and removing Extirpates for other Graveyard hate. This does make EE much worse, but CB does that already; and so far I haven't missed Vindicate. If I did add Karakas I'd probably find myself testing V-Clique and Venser in the board.
We'll see where the discussion/testing goes, but this is whats on my mind at the moment.
Edit: @Tinefol: Yeah... people should really just stop playing Merfolk... please?
And speaking of Merfolk & the Star City series, Merfolk has been pretty popular at these things. Anyone taking Landstill is going to need a solid plan to at least bring the matchup to 50/50 if they can. What that plan is I wish I knew. I think I'm 1-4 or so all time against Merfolk with Landstill in tournaments.
Does Sensei's Divining Top put Landstill over the safe limit of time to finish matches? Reading the report above I was stuck by two things: first that at least one of the draws, against Canadian Threshold, seemed like a really unlikely event, and second that it sounded like playing the deck was exhausting due to the number of matches that ran long. Game 2 in particular of the match against Dave Price sounds like a game in which without top it just goes over quickly in the opponent's favor leaving plenty of time for game 3, instead of going through a long drawn-out loss that then leads to a draw in the round.
Thats a valid question, one I was certainly asking myself as I sat in 9th place with 3 draws.
I really think it ends up winning more games than it loses or draws. Against both Winter Orb and Canadian Thresh I made awful misplays that resulted in draws intstead of Wins. I also need to be more conciously aware of the time limits and I think as I log more play time with the deck I'll end up getting faster. I had trouble ending games in a timely fashion without top when I first picked up the deck. Having top as a 3 of is a recent addition for me, so it will take some adjusting, but I still think it's the right call.
If you were to get in a similar situation in a game 2 again like the Dave Price match, where you had won game 1 and were now facing a long drawn out battle from a position of slight disadvantage due the early crucible-waste lock, would you be more likely to throw in the towel early on the game, knowing that top would let you survive longer than you usually would but that victory was very uncertain and that a draw in the match was the likely outcome?Quote:
Originally Posted by RogueMTG
What do you guys think about diabolic edict? It solves a lot of the major problems facing these builds, namely iona and progenitus. And honestly, other than zoo and perhaps merfolk, what other decks land more than one big threat? Even with those two, we have other removal to compliment the edicts.
I haven't tested it at all, but it sounds damned good for the current meta.
@ Rogue: I've also been thinking along the lines of the new Jace in place of FOF. Before I dismissed it as weak removal, weak draw, and a weak kill condition. Now that combo's looking better and better.
I don't think that Top is the problem in this situation, but more recognizing when it's futile to continue and that you should move on to game 3. A big part of playing Landstill is being able to just take over the game even if you seem very poorly positioned.Quote:
Originally Posted by FoolofaTook
I probably should have scooped game 2 when my EE @ 3 got stopped and I was out of an reasonable means to get a third colored mana source to try again. But there was still a chance (however small) that I could pull runner runner Humility/Elspeth at any point and have it all stick and I didn't want to let the game go. Would I do things differently in the future? It kind of depends, lessons learned and all that, it goes along with needing to be more conscious of the time.
I made the same mistake game 2 against Winter Orb, it was all but futile, but I held on, and the cost was a draw instead of a potential win.
I was in the same camp regarding Jace until yesterday or so, I have a couple in the mail now and will be trying them out.Quote:
Originally Posted by rsaunder
I do think Edict is worth looking at, non-white, non-targeting removal seems awesome.
The problem is deciding where it should go, does it replace Path to Exile? It will be weaker against Merfolk & other tribal decks where you really wanted to hit the lords, but it may be better in the overall meta.
Does this deck need Mishra's Factory at all? For Standstill, all you need is an empty board.
You could run a 4c manabase with basics. Just a thought.
Isn't 3 Elspeth/DoJ enough?
This last part is incredibly depressing. I had a snow day off from school today, so I figured I'd retool for Sunday. The problem is, I haven't tested against Reanimator at all, and I'm actually just inclined to concede the matchup if it's that bad. Before you read below, is this the wise thing to do before I mutilate this deck?Quote:
Originally Posted by RogueMTG
Anyhow... I do like Karakas no matter what, I recommended Karakas & Tolaria West a while ago (I think Karakas as a 1-of is awkward, especially if it is your only out against Iona in certain cases. I hate Tolaria West but it is EE #4, and so forth). For fitting in Humility. I'm playing with gustha's list from a couple of pages back. The first thing I needed was to make some room. Someone verify if my logic makes sense here. My original draw suite was:
3 SDT
3 BS
3 Standstill
3 Jace 1.0
I can't get the new Jace in time (plus, I just spent a lot of $$ to get the parts for UW Tempo, that's the backup plan if Sunday is ugly), but I can make a new spot if I go -3 Jace, +2 FoF. I'm used to having FoF anyways, so this is fine here. I'm not happy about it eating up mana, as the original reason I liked this deck was because of its potential to have a smoother mana curve (less "bombs" @ 4cc, but more utility in the lesser slots). I also had 2 flex spots that were filled with 2 Forbid.
From the board, we move +1 Firespout (to fill Jace slot #3), and +2 Humility in the Forbid slots. Here's where it gets ugly. I still need something for the combo matchup. My original plan was somewhat dependent on Forbid, acting as hard counter #5-6 (or #9-10, as Spell Snare is situational). What can I do here?
The list now looks like:
// Lands
3 [ON] Flooded Strand
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
3 [R] Volcanic Island
4 [R] Tundra
1 [LEG] Karakas
1 [FUT] Tolaria West
2 [UNH] Island
2 [UNH] Plains
1 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (1)
1 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (3)
1 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (4)
1 [MM] Dust Bowl
3 [ZEN] Scalding Tarn
// Spells
3 [SHM] Firespout
2 [FNM] Fact or Fiction
3 [FD] Engineered Explosives
4 [B] Swords to Plowshares
3 [OD] Standstill
4 [DIS] Spell Snare
4 [AL] Force of Will
1 [ALA] Ajani Vengeant
2 [CFX] Path to Exile
3 [MM] Brainstorm
2 [ALA] Elspeth, Knight-Errant
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
2 [TE] Humility
1 [SC] Decree of Justice
// Sideboard
SB: 4 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 2 [U] Red Elemental Blast
SB: 1 [IA] Pyroblast
SB: 1 [10E] Crucible of Worlds
SB: 2 [FNM] Aura of Silence
SB: 4 [CS] Counterbalance
SB: 1 ???
Is 3x Firespout overkill? Would finally like to consider Lightning Helix, after dodging the card for ages. I'd like more than 6 available 2cc cards for Counterbalance in the Zoo matchup if possible (1 active Counterbalance vs. a possible 3 Counterbalance + 3 Standstill. Helix would make it 8 cards and nice removal / recovery from burn).Feedback would be appreciated, I liked how the old list perform(ed), but now I'm a little worried all of the sudden about Progenitus & Reanimator. :eek:
It's a tool for trading against Nactls, as well as killing basically every Lordless Merfolk and Mutavaults. Also, Factories turn Standstills played by Merfolk players onto a AEther Vial-less board a mistake for them if the Landstill player also runs Wasteland.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tea
Just giving up on reanimator and hoping for the best is probably a meta call, but I know around here there are about 5-6 people that have been playing it regularly. Keep in mind those results were with my list at the time, the only things I really had to bring in were Extirpates & an Echoing Truth.Quote:
Originally Posted by Morbid-
Top/Brainstorm are your best cards in the matchup (really any matchup...), you tend to have to float your answers on top of your deck so they don't get wrecked by duress/thoughtsieze, and then draw with top into them when the time is right. Post board if you have hate on the table don't forget about Show and Tell, try to set up for dropping a Humility off of it.
I'll be honest I've never tried the red splash, so I wouldn't know how good or bad Firespout is. At first glance it promises to be solid in a Tribal heavy meta, but it looks awful versus Iona/Progenitus decks.
I can tell you your blue count is looking alittle low for Force, I think I count 16? You could do -1 Firespout +1 Brainstorm/Standstill, and maybe move the 'spout to the side? (or squeeze in a Forbid).
With your 6 MD Swords effects it might be cool to optimize for the turn 1 Swords your dude, turn 2 Standstill play.
Yeah, my blue count dropped way low with -2 Forbid, +2 Humility. Sigh... I was all excited for this weekend, but now I'm nervous (and you won't like me when I'm nervous... :eek:).
Luckily, the snow day yesterday also opened up tonight for me, so I can play at a weekly tourney and let you guys know how it goes. The players there will probably all be present on Sunday, and the metagame will be pretty healthy (ie., representative of the current Legacy metagame). That, or I can just pray that I do well in the earlier rounds on Sunday and that Reanimator starts off in the 0-X bracket. That MD Capsize is looking better and better, tbh.
I'm sure you'll be fine, good luck!
@Morbid-: sorry guy I didn't reply to your post but I've been very busy. I'll answer here, and this is my current list. The changes reflect the last top8 of the league, with 2 merfolk 2 zoo (unbelievable...they should exclude each other!) 2 dephts (BG and UB) 1 Probant and I still don't recall the last. Maybe it's not properly a field to play landstill, but UWr (provided I don't screw with 24 lands in 60 cards, which happens indeed very often...) has a playable/positive merfolk MU, and playable/positive zoo MU. I don't like so much humility, true it's good paired with firespout, but firespout is good on its own, I'd rather have more path to exile.
// Lands
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
3 [R] Volcanic Island
4 [R] Tundra
4 [AQ] Mishra's Factory
3 [UNH] Island
2 [UNH] Plains
1 [MM] Dust Bowl
2 [ZEN] Scalding Tarn
// Spells
2 [SHM] Firespout
3 [M10] Jace Beleren
3 [FD] Engineered Explosives
3 [OD] Standstill
3 [DIS] Spell Snare
4 [AL] Force of Will
1 [ALA] Ajani Vengeant
3 [CFX] Path to Exile
4 [MM] Brainstorm
2 [ALA] Elspeth, Knight-Errant
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [R] Swords to Plowshares
2 [FNM] Counterspell
// Sideboard
SB: 3 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 3 [U] Red Elemental Blast
SB: 1 [IN] Dismantling Blow
SB: 2 [FNM] Aura of Silence
SB: 4 [CS] Counterbalance
SB: 2 [SHM] Faerie Macabre
Faerie macabre is here to try to mess with ichorid and reanimator, capsize/wipe away proved good in lots of cases, but they always arrive a turn too late and I want something effective as soon as possible. Turns good vs bant survival too, and lots of other things. 5 gy hate slots aren't too much, :frown:
BTW I was trying to tune a similar list with tarmogoyf MD (helps vs ichorid, combo - as a clock -, renimator - to race iona - etc.) with a transformational side to countertop (RWM's, counterbalances, grips/trygon). I'm sure it will help vs aggressive decks (non-merfolk), tempo thresh, zoo, aggroloam, anda against the ones already mentioned. Anyone interested to test in their spare time and share suggestions please send me a PM, I'm very full to follow the topic, sadly.
So I installed the changes, -3 Jace, +2 FoF +1 Capsize, and also went -2 Forbid +2 Humility, effectively nuking my Combo matchup, but being more solid against bigger dudes, Progenitus, etc. I also did the Tolaria West/Karakas thing, which is pretty tacky. Played at a weekly tournament in Columbus last night (inaugural one), going 3-1 with the list beating Merfolk, Pox, and Aggro Loam, losing to B/R Goblins.
Quick notes: the Merfolk list wasn't optimized (no Wastelands, wtf?) so, when it comes down to who can win under a Vial-less Standstill, I wound up drawing three, winning the CA battle and taking it home pretty quickly. Post-board I didn't see any of the seven cards I boarded in, but a Humility slows the bleeding down enough for me to Firespout (countered), then Firespout again. Jitte was still lethal under Humility and reminded me of why I was hesitant to add it in to begin with. 5/5's with Jitte > board.
Pox was an awkward matchup, SDT is a card advantage whore, which made for a nice game to stabilize. Extirpate really hurt post board, and he took PtE & Factory in g2 (I lost), then StP & Scalding Tarn (yeah, I was confused too over that one). Relic was MVP out of the board, and when he went all in (thinking removal was clear), he made a Tomb of Urami token, which I promptly Transmuted Tolaria West --> Karakas.
B/R Goblins was a blowout against me, so we won't go into that. Just never drew Humility or Firespout. Was pretty ugly. Loam destroyed me g1, but g2 I was able to stabilize with Relic + Firespout = wipe Goyf & a fresh KotR. G3 I went from blind Counterbalance hellbent against a 5/6 Goyf to drawing another CB, taking 5, drawing Ajani to tap Goyf down, and then flipping a Standstill to counter Bob. Still need to test the matchup a little more, since I doubt that sequence will occur again.
@ gustha: Zomg 43 Factories, :eek:
Is 13 draw spells too much? I really dig the Faerie Macabre in the board, free and uncounterable GY hate. I thought about putting some in the UWb list I played in October of last year, but could never find the slots. I might retool again before Sunday and those might find their way into the board. No Crucible? I sided in Crucible last night all four matches, so I'm glad it was in the board. I didn't draw it g2 versus Loam and it was K-Grip'ed g3, but still. I like the idea of a green splash for Goyfs and whatnot, will have to see if I have funding for such a deck, Goyfs & Trops right now would murder me, or I could not eat for a month.
Aside from the hilariously random owning of Tomb of Urami, how did the Karakas/Tolaria West package feel? Is it something you're going to try again or probably not?Quote:
Originally Posted by Morbid-
Was T-West ever randomly useful other than being a slow wastelandable Island?
When the format was slower Tolaria west was much more viable then it is currently in most models of landstill. Generally speaking ee or ruins are what you get, but obviously dustbowl and mishra's arn't too far off the calender. Just depends on the matchup and the game state.Quote:
Originally Posted by RogueMTG
As mossive said, it was more viable when it was slow. When I don't have the thing in my opener, I'm usually fine. It works pretty well as an uncounterable tutor. That said, this is still tentative. The applications are few for Karakas, I tried to list some out on the Salvation discussion thread, basically:Quote:
Originally Posted by RogueMTG
1. Iona. The one reason it's in here.
2. Gaddock Teeg. Not that bad now that I've gone from WoG --> Firespout, but protecting him under a CB/Top generally means game over. This at least gives it a chance.
3. Marit Lage token. Self explanatory, same deal with the Urami token, which indeed was my "living the dream" moment for the night.
And of course the conditional:
4. Progenitus under Humility
5. Kira to take off her first trigger shield.
And of course, add in 6. Urami token if you really must. The reaction around the table was better.
I liked the package though, I ran one way back here (horrible list/horrible play from me, but just saying), and it was able to get Lands/EE/the lone Tormod's Crypt. If I feel like Loam is something I'm less likely to see Sunday, then the package will go in. If not, it'll just be another Factory and Plains to help the mana base a little. So many nonbasics last night. Yikes.
This is the list I'm playing right now and why:
4 Force of Will
3 Spell Snare
3 Counterspell
4 Brainstorm
3 Standstill
2 Fact or Fiction
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Path to Exile
2 Firespout
2 Humilty
2 Engineered Explosives
3 Decree of Justice
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
3 Island
3 Plains
3 Tundra
1 Volcanic Island
1 Plateau
4 Flooded Strand
1 Arid Mesa
1 Scalding Tarn
3 Mishra's Factory
3 Wasteland
1 Academy Ruins
Before I played UGW, I almost exclusively played Landstill. I have a great deal of experience with the deck and quit playing it because it's actually not very good against the aggro-control decks if the pilots know how to play Magic. However, since Tarmagoyfs are so high right now, I sold them and am back to playing Landstill.
First things first, Legacy is a creature dominated format. Almost all the best decks win through creature beats. Compare the creatures/win conditions in other decks to Landstill's and we're terribly behind the curve. Our win conditions are very inefficient comparatively speaking and don't quickly win the game. I'm sure many of you will disagree with me but it's true. When every deck is playing Tarmagoyf and we're playing Elspeth and Decree of Justice or whatever lame endgame card we play, you have to admit that we're terribly outmatched in that department both mana-wise and power-wise. Because our win conditions can't stand alone, we have to play cards that make our win conditions better than the other win conditions in the format. I think it's absolutely incorrect to play less than two Humility. Humility is the only card that singlehandedly transforms our terrible win conditions into the best win conditions in the format. We simply outclass every other creature when we have Humility in play with any of our win conditions. It slows the beats down to such a degree that we can come from behind to develop our resources and translate them into card advantage through insane card drawing and/or board sweeping effects. The format revolves around the assumption that they can play undercosted monsters and quickly end a game before late game inevitability catches up with them and they're largely right.
Second, I think Wrath of God is obsolete. While it does handle Progenitus, so does Humility at the same cost. However, Humility provides an effect that allows us to have the upper hand on board almost all the time. Wrath of God just wipes a board temporarily for a buttload of mana. With cards like Daze and Spell Pierce out there, we can't play Wrath of God effectively. We're either taking too much damage before it resolves or it doesn't even resolve at all. The double white casting cost is prohibitive against Wasteland decks, too. Stifle can prevent us from getting basics when we need them and with Elspeth and Humility in the deck, another double white spell is too much.
Third, six "Swords" are a must right now. Merfolk simply outclasses us. With every deck pushing the envelope on aggression, we have to have the tools to deal with the threats now because if we accumulate too much damage, our options will be severely cut down by the mid-game. We can't afford to take an extra beat to wait a turn to pop the Explosives to get value out of it or use Firespout to two or three-for-one. If we're cornered into using the cards that develop us card advantage for one-for-ones, we're probably dead because we're running so inefficiently.
Fourth, the reason so many people go to time with Landstill is because we generally play so few real win conditions. Sometimes we just don't see them in a game until late in the game. That means we can't make a single mistake with out win conditions or we lose because we probably won't see another one in time. It's great and all to say, "Just don't make a mistake" but the truth of the matter is most Legacy players aren't nearly as good at Magic as they think they are and make several mistakes a game let alone a match. I've needed to play five real win conditions in order to not consistently have a problem with time. We should be designing our decks to be as busted as we can. My philosophy is to just play as many busted cards as I can and form a deck around them. Which leads me to my last point.
Jace is not good enough outside the control mirror. Granted, he's just fine when your hand is stuffed with removal to protect him or you have an early Elspeth, which is more of a problem for your opponent than Jace. However, paying three mana to only get one card now is way too slow and doesn't dig nearly deep enough for what you're paying for it. For three mana, you should be digging three cards deep. Thirst for Knowledge is probably better than Jace, especially if you play three Explosives and two Academy Ruins. If you're playing Top and Standstill and Brainstorm, why do you need Jace instead of something a lot better? Top, Standstill and Brainstorm are enough to get you what you need in the early game. Cards like Fact or Fiction and even Cunning Wish can be back-breaking. Why not play those instead? It's better to dig five deep than one deep or to tutor for exactly what you need when you need it than to draw one card for three mana.
Obviously, I'm weak to Ichorid/Reanimator and Combo with this mainboard so the sideboard addresses those matchups. However, this deck is extremely good at beating aggressive creature decks, which is what the format is largely like right now.
Except that it isn't. Should actually be okay against Zoo and all other random agressive decks, but would still lose to Merfolk.
@hitman
I like your list and your arguments.
True, Humility is just a bomb and I would never go below 2. Humility just gives us sustainability compared to wrath.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hitman82
Well, I will try Firespout for exact these arguments. But you have to fetch red and double white now. Before the black splash was only for EE or the board.Quote:
Second, I think Wrath of God is obsolete. While it does handle Progenitus, so does Humility at the same cost. However, Humility provides an effect that allows us to have the upper hand on board almost all the time. Wrath of God just wipes a board temporarily for a buttload of mana. With cards like Daze and Spell Pierce out there, we can't play Wrath of God effectively. We're either taking too much damage before it resolves or it doesn't even resolve at all. The double white casting cost is prohibitive against Wasteland decks, too. Stifle can prevent us from getting basics when we need them and with Elspeth and Humility in the deck, another double white spell is too much.
That is the way to go!!!Quote:
Third, six "Swords" are a must right now. Merfolk simply outclasses us. With every deck pushing the envelope on aggression, we have to have the tools to deal with the threats now because if we accumulate too much damage, our options will be severely cut down by the mid-game. We can't afford to take an extra beat to wait a turn to pop the Explosives to get value out of it or use Firespout to two or three-for-one. If we're cornered into using the cards that develop us card advantage for one-for-ones, we're probably dead because we're running so inefficiently.
4 or 5 win conditions....hm.. Im fine with 4 but I understand your point.
And yes, Jace is awful.
I have some questions on your list:
1. Why 3 Wastelands and no CoW? Maybe we can reduce the landcount to 23 and go to 1-2 Wastelands.
2. Fact or Fiction or Top? In a fast metagame, top seems the best choice.
23 lands isn't poor??Quote:
Originally Posted by i_need_the_extra_turns
FoF, in my experience showed to be "agressive" it goes for the answer and is out of chalice range. But top + BS + fetch sound good too.
How did it work?? Is nice onother win cond??Quote:
Originally Posted by Morbid-
Well, yet to be determined how effective it really is, but as a 1-of, it was fine. I'll let you guys know after tomorrow :tongue:Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldenCid
Basically, it:
-Shines in control mirror, disrupting part of your opponent's mana source (or God forbid I see the mirror on Sunday, another Factory, etc). If it reaches Ultimate... yeah.
-Kind of a "Meekstone" effect on an opposing creature, say, Goyf.
-Uncounterable Lightning Helix when you need it.
Again, it remains to be seen how effective it can be through X rounds, but it's more of a utility card, imo, than a win condition.
I like ajani V in a non wish version mostly because it's ife source. I found that wish to pulse of the fields saves matches and i don't want to loose the life gain cutting wishes for ajani. I mention wishes because is the only card i could cut the another is FOF but...i'm not sure. Maybe an 1 FoF, 1 AV, 2 Wish configuration could be good.
On the other hand Red splash doesn't give us great wish targets except pyroblast or REB that i'm not sure if they are such a card to wish for them.
I split Top 4 at the Meandeck Open today, going 4-1-1 in the Swiss and winning in the first pairing of Top 8. A quick summary:
Round 1: Win 2-0 against terri-bad Goblins.
Round 2: Lose 0-2 against Merfolk (never drew a single Firespout or red Blast, looks like this matchup will still be a monkey on my back)
Round 3: Win 2-1 against ANT.
Round 4: Win 2-0 against Zoo.
Round 5: Win 2-1 against Zoo.
Round 6: ID in to the Top 8.
Top 8: Win 2-1 against Pox.
Lots of schoolwork to do tonight, so a report will be up sometime tomorrow. Decklist is up here at least.
Edit: I like procrastinating.
Mark, what a nice list :p
I'd change those 2 humilities all the time with 2 counterspells, and I'm still trying to fit in jace to up the cc3 count for counterbalance, so that I can fully abuse of it even in the stax/stacker/enchantress Mu, not only vs combo/zoo/burn/dreadstill/mirror. I'm testing the tolaria -> karakas tech and... it's tecchish :) It does mess up a little the manabase, but it's worth having a uncounterable answer to iona (Or, as we call her in Italy, Iona la Porcona or Iona la Troiona, that is to say that big b****), which also vanishes Marit Lage and gaddock as well. Pretty narrow indeed, but still worth.
Surprised you lost to merfolk with 3 helixes (2 humilities) 6 swords 3 rebs 3 firespout 3 EE... O.O
If you're curving out your deck for CB so it's effective in more than just the standard combo/burn/whatever matchups, why not play it maindeck?Quote:
Originally Posted by gustha
I would then just play dreadstill/countertop/whatever... And I still like EE more than counterbalance... Also, I'm not force to adapt the curve maindeck so I can have all my tools, while post-side I can balance the curve as better as the Mu requires, so that every Mu has is "personal" curve (more 0-1 for ant, more 0-1-2 for burn and the like, more 3-4 cc for enchantress/staxx etc.)
Haha, it would have helped to draw the Firespouts/REB :frown:Quote:
Originally Posted by gustha
I wasn't happy about that post-matchup, but you really can't do much about it. I also probably tried to play much too aggressively (understandable with 11 spot removal + 3 sweeps) against the deck, and like an idiot I kept the Standstills in there to apply pressure (major punt there, as I am used to 3x Decree in the main). Turns out he just had another slow rolling draw, and it really screwed me.
I agree with what you said about Humility --> Counterspell. Maybe, MAYBE Humility to the SB, but yeah, I wasn't too impressed with it yesterday in the Swiss (saved my ass against Abyssal Persecutor wtfpox though), and I even boarded it out against Zoo all 5 games I played against them. Much appreciation for the list :tongue:
I've cut Humility a while ago and never looked back.
If I were to play it again it'd get a MD slot, though, cause people tend to board in Grips etc. G2, diminishing it's value.
Konsultant once even suggested boarding it out against green decks.
I can agree with that, I talked to Geoff a while ago and he did talk about how you lose a small percentage of your matchups. I suppose a good example was losing to Merfolk with Humility on the board g1, that was embarassing and Humility does very little in that matchup to begin with. But I understand your logic for g2, it was just a suggestion against the decks that this list isn't tuned to beat well without a little help. I myself agree that the existence of Krosan Grip makes Humility lose a lot of its value after g1, and I boarded them out against Zoo and I don't regret the decision.Quote:
Originally Posted by klaus
I've been doing the same for a while, and thus why I'm not super into humility. It's hard to destroy a sorcery.Quote:
Originally Posted by Morbid-
I think a build I had some success with a month or so ago packed 2/2 humility/wrath and then boarded out humility against the format g2/3 for spot removal. If they're boarding in grips, they gotta take out some speed to do it, generally speaking.
Although I agree with the opinions above I still play a single copy of humility MD because it is so hard for some decks (G1) to deal with. It also stops CiP effects and that's something that is very important to me (especially against gobs).
It goes out against decks playing green though.
I think if you are going to play Humility you have to play Decree. In your match against Merfolk Morbid, you would then have X more outs after it resolved, rather than just looking for firespout.
I don't know what you pull out, but Humility + Decree just go together.
Hello, after some testings I'm coming up with the following list:
1 Tropical Island
3 Island
2 Plains
4 Flooded Strand
1 Polluted Delta
4 Tundra
1 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
1 Tolaria West
4 Mishra's Factory
1 Academy Ruins
2 Wasteland
4 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill
4 Engineered Explosives
2 Wrath of God
2 Humility
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Decree of Justice
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Crucible of Worlds
3 Cunning Wish
// Sideboard:
SB: 1 Enlightened Tutor
SB: 1 Dismantle Blow
SB: 1 Pulse of the Fields
SB: 2 Extirpate
SB: 2 Engineered Plague
SB: 1 Diabolic edict
SB: 2 Meddling Mage
SB: 1 Ravenous Trap
SB: 1 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 1 Relic of Progenitus
My explanations:
You all boys will ask and tropical for? for the fourth colour, which makes EE even more broken and now we can destroy elspeth, ajanis,etc. , I substituted it by the E.Dragon, but I'm not sure about it. here I need suggestions
The more I play EE the more I like it so I'll play 4, the ritgh number, why you boys play vindicate, EE is better, EE helps us vs vials, turns 1 from zoos and handle those c.b which is what I mainly want.
I'd like to play 2nd Decree but preferred to play the 4th EE in this slot I'm not convinced, but I' do not expect to face too many landstill in the GP and if so my EE will face their planeswalker...
I'm also thinking in cutting the 2 wraths, one may be substituted instead the 4th EE and leaving the slot for decree intact, and the other by ? Nevinirral/new Jace/ senseis/Oblivion stone.... do not know, althoutgh I prefer to keep those wraths... in here I need suggestions too.
I'm also thinking in replacing the 2 wastelands by 1tropical 1 D.Bowl and leave the E.Dragon slot suggestions about this?
about certain match ups I fear to face Dream halls can some one tell me which card will name with mage? Ultimatum maybe?
well I need your suggestions.
As promised I'm able to give a better analysis about the UWg Goyfstill (decklist can be found on page 188).
Unfortunatly i missed my train to our weekly tourney (yeah i don't own a driving licence), but two weeks filled with testing with my mates and on MWS (if can call this "testing") gave me a better view over the positiv and negativ sides of the deck.
We tested against the most common decks in our current meta (wich include LED-Dredge, Merfolk, Goblins, Zoo, ANT, Team America, Canadian *****, 43 Lands, Aggro Loam, Bant (with / without NO) and Survival (Bant or "Oldschool").
I also tested more or less on MWS against Dreamhalls, Random.dec, Dreadstill, Staxx and NLU.
So I like to start with a short view over the Tier 1 decks:
Led-Dredge:
Game 1: Normaly it looks a bit better then regular Landstill, Spell Pierce is great against early cantrips and Goyf can grow really fast. If we are lucky enough to draw 3-4 of our Sword effects we might get there, but G1 is still in favour of the Dredgeplayer (did anyone expect something else?).
Postboard: We have 5 Relics/Crypts, together with 8 Swordeffects. Kitchenfinks worked out pretty well,too.
Even if we can't handle an resolved Iona (except for winning the damagerace), G2 is more or less in our favour (I keep the term more or less, because we all know what stupid kind of things Dredge is able to do ;) ).
Merfolk (or Enemy No1):
Game 1: Now is the time where our Goyfs shine, if we keep them away from 3 Lords he can outclass nearly everone of them. Turn 1 Vial with Daze backup is still a problem, same goes for the overwhelming forces of 12 Lords, all in all the first game is a bit in favour for the Merfolk player, but we are close behind ;).
Postboard: Now we got more Paths and Grips, they might add Submerge, wich can be anoying, but it seems to be even up to positiv for us after the board (or maybe I'm just increadibly lucky with my hands).
Goblins:
Game 1: Goyf can stall most of there dudes and 6 Swords do the rest, the Turn 1 Vial is painfull again (I miss the EE, if I only could find some space : / ) and Incinerators are able to kill bigger Goyfs, yet we gain some time do to the great staller, to cstabalize the board.
Postboard: Same as Merfolk, adding more Paths and Finks / Grips seal the deal.
Aggro Loam: If we can prevent them from an explosiv start with Spell Snare / Pierce we can mostly stabalize. Goyfs stall each other and 6 Swords seem to be enough against KotR / Terravor. If we get our lonly LftL we can be sure to win.
Postboard: Massiv graveyard hate together with spotremoval and Grips for Assault / Chalices look pretty amazing ;).
ANT:
Game 1: Even with a faster clock and 3 Spellpierces we don't have a great game 1, if we don't draw the nuts and them draw crap for a couple of turns.
Postboard: Ethersworn Canonist is just awesome, even if you can be sure that we will be bounced at your eot sometimes. I also like Kitchenfinks, as they simply mean more preassure on the field and an extra spell for the combo turn.
Canadian *****:
Game 1: I miss the Explosiv again, but Mishra and Goyf can stall early Mongose and other Goyfs (if we have some counter for their postcombat burn). LftL shines again if you can keep wasting their lands.
Postboard: Relics keep them small while we actually really don't need to care about our own Goyfs (Mishra/ Eslpeh can win on thier own, as they usually do).
Zoo:
Game 1: Even if the lose of Explosiv have certainly weaken the matchup we have acces to the great staller aka Goyf, who can comped with their entire board (well maybe not with KftR).
Postboard: Kitchenfinks, more Paths and some Relics are the key to our victory.
I'll come to the Tier 2 decks later ;).
Sorry for the rush and short explanation, but the deck doesn't feel really different from "ordinary" Landstill, the fact that I personally like the most.
cheers
Felidae
PS.: As allways I like to point out that this is only my personal view/experience, I might me completely wrong and you are are free to tell me if you think so ;).
Is there a reason not to play The Tabernacle At Pendrell Vale in the deck? It seems as though it would be helpful by locking their mana down, thereby denying them options. It would also appear to slow creature based decks.
I could see issues with "missing" a land drop in a deck that needs to maximize its resource use each turn. However, the benefits of Tabernacle may out weigh the possible set backs. Any thoughts?
It doesn't tap for mana. This is a deck that wants to hit it's first four land drops, preferably five or six. You also can't abuse it like Stax or Lands, as you don't have Armageddon or repeatable Wastelands. More often then not it will have little impact on the game, since many decks run large enough individual threats that they can afford to upkeep the Tabernacle.
Can someone help me with this althoutgh it's via private messagesĦĦĦQuote:
Originally Posted by Pelikanudo
Thanks