You can run 3 Dismember. Nobody is actually playing Zoo right now.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zilla
Printable View
You can run 3 Dismember. Nobody is actually playing Zoo right now.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zilla
You can, but I wouldn't. There are plenty of other aggressive decks in the format that make it a risky card to play in multiples. I rarely want to play more than one in a game, and I can't remember a time I'd have wanted to play more than two. For matchups where Dismember's effect is highly sought after, you have Submerge and/or Gilded Drake from the board, and they're simply stronger options in those situations, imo.Quote:
Originally Posted by mchainmail
Classic question: Do you play first turn Delver (Goose) or hold open Stifle?
Say, you are on the play against an unknown opponent with the following hand:
Delver, Stifle, Tropical, Wasteland, Daze, Ponder, Spell Snare
Does the reasoning change, if you have a second blue source? (You could then play Delver 2nd turn with Stifle up.) If you have Brainstorm? If you have/do not have Wasteland?
I myself generally lead with the creature (though I would wait on Ponder) - but I'm not sure this is correct.
It depends a lot on what else in your hand. As a rule of thumb, I choose holding back for Stifle over a first turn Mongoose, because without Thresh he's not a real clock anyway. I may play a first turn Delver over holding back for Stifle, but I'm much more comfortable doing that if I have a Daze or FoW to protect it, or if I have Brainstorm to use on the following turn's upkeep to be sure I can transform it, or both.
It depends on other cards as well. For example, I'm much more likely to hold back for Stifle if I also have a Wasteland or two to bolster the mana denial strategy. One Stifle on its own probably isn't going to win you a game, but if it's reinforced by other disruption it absolutely can, and then it makes more sense to wait that extra turn to drop Delver.
Just built this deck and am playtesting now, so far absolutely love it. I am currently working on the creature configuration. I think 4 delver/4 goyf is beyond dispute, though would certainly like to hear a different opinion. I am running 3 snapcast and 3 mongoose bringing my total to 14 creatures. I don't run drake in the board currently so thats the lot. The big question is Grim Lavamancer. I can't fit him in and I feel like running him makes me want to put in a mountain main to guarantee him. Any thoughts on ideal creature config?
thanks
defector
I'm not sold on Snapcaster, even though a lot of people have been running him to good effect. It does give the deck a bit of gas in the mid to late game, which is nice, but it still seems mana intensive for a deck with 18 lands. You don't really want to see him in the early game at all, and the more of him you run, the fewer things you have to flash back with him. If I were to decide to run him, I don't think I'd run more than 2, personally.
As for Lavamancer vs. Goose, it's pretty much a metagame call. It's rarely correct to run both, imo. In a metagame rife with tribal aggro I'd run Lavamancer. Against Zoo and a combo and control, I'd rather have Goose.
That brings me to another question: Is it really worth it to Brainstorm just to make sure to transform Delver? (That is, without a fetch - just T1 Delver, T2 upkeep Brainstorm.) That play looks kind of bad, but I guess this deck is aggressive enough that the classic "Only Brainstorm with Fetch or while desperate" rule might not apply.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zilla
And are there cards you would not reveal with Delver (e.g. Daze)?
As for the creature configuration, I concur that Snapcaster Mage looks very clunky in our 14 land deck (Wastelands don't really count). Plus, one of the cards you are getting out of it, the Mage himself, often is not really a serious threat (which Vendilion Clique used to be at 3cc).
With that hand, on the play against an unknown, I would leave mana up for Stifle. I think you stand to gain a lot more board position than you stand to lose.Quote:
Originally Posted by Serbitar
If they lead fetch you can Stifle, if they lead Wasteland you can Stifle, if it's storm combo or some kind of Stompy deck you have Spell Snare up. This way you get to see their lead and access the best route to continue the game.
If you get to hit their fetch you can follow up with Ponder or Delver, and either make another land drop or play out Wasteland. If they led a Dual you can Waste them and pass still threatening Stifle for turn 2. Worst case scenario I guess they lead a basic in which case you missed a turn 1 play, but still have Spell Snare and Stifle in hand to answer their 2nd turn action.
A turn or two later you're probably in a position to set up Delver with Ponder, and there's a decent chance their mana's been disrupted.
A few questions:
1. What is your (as in, all of you) stance on the RUG CB/top-build (not GerryTs, the other one) vs a regular Delver + Goyf + Lavamancer/Snappy-list? Pro's and Con's? I can't stop looking at the CB/top-version.
2. Would a super-agressive list work? I'm thinking either all-in with Delver/Mongoose/Snappy + Bolts and maybe even a few Chain Lightning - OR - Goyf/Delver/few Mongoose/few Snappy (as someone above was playing).
3. Goyf, is he absolutely needed?
4. Ancient Grudge vs Krosan Grip vs Nature's Claim.
Quite alot of questions, indeed, but I'm new to the deck and my mind just can't decide what path I want to go down...
EDIT: Also, the biggest reason that's holding me back from going into CB/Top = Loss of Wasteland, feels so huge.
Hi guys, I´m running the list that placed second at Amsterdam
http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazin...ms11/welcome#0
I´ve changed the maindeck Nimble Mongoose with Grim Lavamancer, and I´d like your feed back on this. Zilla said that Grim is only good vs Tribal Agro, but i disagree, thinking that in the first turns both hit as 1/1, and grim can hit 5 toughness creatures with lightning bolt and 7 toughness with dismember. In case that he gets removal he just acted as a lightning rod for goyf and delver. Let me know what you think. Regards
Agree with this, btw. I missed the sample hand from that post. With no way to guarantee a transform on Delver, and with no Fetchland to protect yourself from a turn 1 Waste, and with two 1cc disruption options available, and with a Wasteland of your own to bolster the mana denial strategy of Stifle, I think it's a no-brainer to wait until at least turn 2 to play Delver.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cairo
Again, depends on the rest of the hand. Do I only have 1 color-producing mana in my opening 7? Then there's a fair chance I want to Brainstorm on turn 2 anyway to try and make that second drop. Do I have a fetch? Then a turn 2 Brainstorm isn't awful, and sets you up for a fast, aggressive clock. I think it really depends on how much your hand needs sculpting early on to know if Brainstorm is the right play there. It's definitely not unconditionally the right play. If I have no fetch and no Daze or FoW to protect Delver, I'm probably not going to Brainstorm on turn 2 upkeep, or play Delver turn 1, for that matter.Quote:
Originally Posted by Serbitar
I do think there are some times where it's correct not to reveal, but it really depends on the scenario. Daze and Stifle are definitely at the top of my "potentially won't reveal" list, but it also depends how relevant those cards are at any given moment. This deck isn't a balls to the wall aggro deck, (although it can sometimes play like one), so whether or not you go full aggro with Delver is really dependent upon what role you're playing at any given moment.Quote:
Originally Posted by serbitar
Countertop seems wrong for this deck for a couple reasons. First, it requires a lot of non-instant/sorcery slots in the deck, which makes for poor synergy with Delver. Second, it tends to solve a problem the deck doesn't really have. Namely, it strengthens your already strong combo matchup, without doing much for the aggro matchup. Seems to me like Countertop belongs in a more midrange control oriented strategy than in a tempo strategy, where you want to disrupt early and then win quickly. I openly admit I could be wrong on this, but that's my gut feeling.Quote:
Originally Posted by berry
If that's what you're looking for, try Blue Zoo. It's basically Canadian Thresh minus Stifle and Wasteland, plus Wild Nacatl and burn. I personally think the deck has a ton of potential.Quote:
Originally Posted by berry
No, but he's probably your best option for that slot. You could theoretically run Snapcaster in that slot and do okay. You could also run both Lavamancer and Mongoose in the same maindeck in order to make yourself completely immune to Spell Snare, although that has some obvious potential drawbacks. In theory you might run Scavenging ooze in that slot; it's good against a lot of decks right now.Quote:
Originally Posted by berry
Depends on the expected meta, but for an unknown one I prefer Grudge. Grip is expensive for this deck, and right now there are a lot more problematic artifacts than there are enchantments. Plus there's the potential card advantage of getting a second use out of it. I prefer both Grudge and Grip to Nature's Claim because they give you outs to Chalice set at 1.Quote:
Originally Posted by berry
I didn't mean to suggest that it was only good against tribal aggro, because that's certainly not the case. It's very good in the Maverick matchup, for example. Killing Hierarchs and Arbors is a very effective strategy there. I do think that Lavamancer in the same deck as both Mongoose and Goyf seems like a bad idea, though. When 'mancer is potentially hurting 8 cards in your deck, he's kind of a tough sell.Quote:
Originally Posted by Peruzo
I agree that CB/Top makes it harder to flip Delver, but am I wrong in feeling it also strengthens the mirror? 4 Grims to take care of the early drops and then stabilizing with CB/Top seems strong.
But you believe this should rather be in something like Next Lvl Thresh/GerryTs Punishing RUG/Top-builds? I could buy that.
How then, would an opted tempo-build look like? I feel like the Grims are not maindeckable unless your meta is full of Fish, Zoo or the mirror - so what is?
4 Goyf, 4 delver, X, X? Is Mongoose out for good?
About the artifact-hate - my meta does have some CB and some Deeds, that's why I'm considering other than Ancient Grudge... Nature's Claim has the plus of being flashbackable "cheaply" with Snapcaster, too.
Probably more of a Sb card, but Phyrexian Revoker could be tried to help against Artifacts. It can needle SDT or Deed. Contributes to the mana denial strategy shutting down: Vial, LED, or moxen. And nullifies some random things if they slip past counters/removal: equipment, Thopter Foundry, random utility guys (MoR, Ooze, Thrun's regen). It's probably not the best against any given threat, but it compensates with wide application.Quote:
Originally Posted by berry
Zilla could you please post a link to your current list? I'm with the idea of playing 4 delver 4 goyf and 3 snapcasters for creatures
My list is pretty standard:
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Scalding Tarn
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Stifle
4 Spell Snare
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Dismember
SB:
2 Gilded Drake
3 Submerge
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Firespout
3 Surgical Extraction
The sideboard is largely set up to hate on Maverick and other KotR decks, which are some of this this deck's most difficult matchups.
Excellent list. It´s perfectly tuned. I´ll try it out and let you know my thoughts
I too, really enjoy this kind of list, I'll probably go 3 Mongoose, 3 Daze, 2 Snapcaster/Grim - but still.
Will try it out on weekly legacy tour on wednesday! :)
Hello everyone,
I need some recommendation or ideas to help with sideboard, I play classic version of Canadian *****,last week I participate my weekly legacy tournament,and meta went crazy. From 21 players,there were 10 can.*****,5 combos,2 maverick,BUG,UW 2 random decks...
Next week,we are going to have a bigger tournament (60+ players) and for sure,there will be at least 15 canadas treshes(25%).
Any suggestions for sideboard plan in mirror?
It was discussed earlier on this page, but the CounterTop combo should destroy the mirror. In fact, take a look at the list that made 7th at SCG KC last weekend.
It's got the CounterTop combo, a bunch of basics to avoid opposing Wastelands, and Blood Moon in the board. If you're looking for a Can. Thresh list that beats the mirror, that's probably a very good place to start.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zilla
thanks