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In an effort to adjust to pre-misstep life, I have been testing an old version of Junk from SCG: Charlotte, the last open before NPH was released. My list is similar to this one:
http://mtgpulse.com/event/855#9372
It does not run vindicates, but rather uses jittes as its removal suite. While we cannot use this exact list anymore probably, I think it is pretty solid and should be considered.
I dont like his choices of maindeck Teeg or Inquisition over Thoughtseize to be honest
in a faster format, NO or jace probably become less of a threat since a few aggro decks can just race such strategies, so i think if NO and JaceTMS get less popular also thoughtseize might get changed for inquisition (allthough against combo i would still prefer thoughtseize)
in a field of zoo for example it would be profitable running inquisition over thoughtseize
maindeck teeg with green sun's zenith is absolutly wonderful. It stops about anything that is usually a game loss. (time spiral, tendrils of agony and so on)Quote:
Originally Posted by Seems Good
I agree with this (Jace & N.O.) though for the most part. Both cards were played in slower control decks during the faster times (pre-mm) and I believe that people will eventually switch back to those lists. For the time being though, I wouldn't maindeck Teeg as there are a lot of times where you want to play something else and you topdeck him.Quote:
Originally Posted by AggroSteve
He may only be a one of but you all know that you can end up drawing your one of's a lot more than you actually want to. I would, however, leave him in the baord. You never know when you're going to face Stax, Enchantress, N.O., Combo, high costed control, or Jace and actually want him to stop their plan.
Soooo... I've been slightly moving towards new builds, today testing a straight up GSZ build.
I hated the Goyfs, as usual. I wanted SFM. But I'm having trouble fitting everything I want in the list... To begin with, here's my current list:
1 Eternal Witness
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Birds of Paradise
3 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Dark Confidant
4 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Sword of Body and Mind
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull
2 Maelstrom Pulse/Vindicate
2 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Thoughtseize
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
2 Scrubland
2 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Plains
1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Maze of Ith
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Karakas
4 Wasteland
3 Marsh Flats
3 Verdant Catacombs
1 Windswept Heath
SB:
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Relic of Progenitus
2 Phyrexian Metamorph
2 Pernicious Deed
1 Tower of the Magistrate
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
2 Qasali Pridemage
1 Smother
1 Dismember
1 Go for the Throat
As you can see, I like 1-offs... Eh.
The problems I have is:
1. I'd like to play either with 4 SFM 2 GSZ, or a 3/3 split. I can't seem to find the space.
2. I just can't play rock without hymn, but I'm not sure this list is playable, mana-wise, we'll see...
3. General thoughts and ideas?
I would get rid of the Witness. To me its one of those cards that can be useful when its in your list but you don't miss it when its not in your list.
On Gaddock Teeg. I would never go without it main board*. A lot of combo decks don't have an answer to it game one, so it really can steal games. And its at the least useful against blue based decks (that run Fow). Against aggro its not that good but you can always use it as a blocker to give you time to set up something bigger.
* but then again I live in Holland so combo is always to be expected especially now that MM is banned. So if your metagame doesn't have a lot of combo than I probably wouldn't run it if I felt I had too little slots left main.
I see people's points about Teeg, but they are all under the assumption that you are running GSZ. I cut GSZ a few months ago and haven't looked back since.
I do like GSZ and am still anxiously waiting to find a deck to use it in, but I still don't see the value in Junk. The toolbox options basically deal with the same problems that cards like Vindicate can handle, only the investment is usually greater. Gaddock Teeg especially does not seem all that strong in Junk when we have Thoughtseizes and Hymns for Combo and control, and many decks are capable of dealing with him anyway.
Besides all that, in reference to Berry, I'm not sure you really need 4 or even 3 Stoneforges in your main. If you do want that may, then I'd probably back off on the GSZ plan more and maybe standardize the rest of your list to deal with the non-creature decks. If you want a couple GSZ and all the one-ofs, that's fine too but I wouldn't let Mystic take up more than 5 or 6 slots in that case. GSZ is best when it can be a ramp spell early AND a threat later on, usually fueled by Hierarchs or the like. Having 2 GSZ and 2 ramp targets isn't as good as having 4 Hierarch and 3-4 GSZ, as you will inevitably be slower. Junk is greedy enough on mana with Wastelands and Mazes and whatnot, so having both toolboxes in your deck is really stressful on your mana base. Being able to cast KOTR for 3, leaving up a Wasteland for Daze or to swipe a dual from them (and grow the Knight) is a lot better than having to tap out for 4 and risk running into Daze or letting them hit their critical land count. Just sayin'.
If you do decide to run both, I think I would probably run 2-3 Mystics, a Batterskull and a Jitte (or maybe just a Sword and a Jitte), and 3 GSZ. Having two toolboxes in the deck also means you are very likely to draw the wrong card at the wrong time, which is why I prefer cards like Vindicate over hate bears and equipment. It's versatile, and works in many situations whereas the wrong toolbox tool might not. That said, I'd go light on the toolboxes in your main, and let the SB do the work for games 2-3. Keeping Hymns and the other staples in the maindeck seems like a fine idea to me, as long as your mana base is stable.
I don't see how Teeg is maindeckable in a meta that isn't 25%+ storm-combo, really (at least not more maindeckable than a singleton that actually does something all the time).
This is hardly the most relevant discussion though, the overall strategy is more important to figure out than the singletons.
One thing is almost for sure. Storm will become more popular post ban.
I've been testing stoneforge lately against post-banning decks. It is pretty bad right now due to the fact that spell snare is being played. Plus, Stifle isnt great for her either. I might go back to a GSZ based list, as that gets around snare. either that, or run loam + elspeth main.
I ran my list in a pre-ban Misstep tournament on Tues, and went 3-1. I lost the first round due to a horrible game 1 (mull to 5 with 1 land, and never see another one. Game 3, I lose to flipping 3 3-drops off Bob, then die to an EOT Clique which swings for 6 with 3 Nobles. How awk with no Knight to tutor Maze).
My list was as follows:
3 Scrubland
1 Savannah
3 Bayou
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Marsh Flats
2 Windswept Heath
1 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Plains
3 Wasteland
1 Maze
1 Karakas
4 Dark Confidant
3 Knight
3 Goyf
4 SFM
4 Hymn
4 Thoughtseize
1 Duress
1 IoK
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
3 Vindicate
3 Top
4 Swords
2 Chains of Mephistopheles
---BOARD---
2 Ghastly Demise
2 Tariff
2 Phyrexian Metamorph
2 Deed
1 Bojuka Bog
3 Extirpate
3 Grip
Round 1, lost to Bant in a tight last game.
Round 2, won 2-1 against Goblins. Discard + Deed + 6 pieces of removal is decent.
Round 3, played Recurring Nightmare/Spike Weaver/Eternal Witness control. Went 2-1. Long games...
Round 4: Played Mono Red Burn. Took him to town with discard :P
-Matt
That's 59 cards maindeck if I count correctly, also, there's no SFM-target, can I assume Sword of FF?
How many lands would you guys advice in a version with 2-3 GSZ and 4 Noble Hierarc
I was testing against Mono R Vial Gobs last night, I think this deck will definitely see a resurgence. What are our options hear MD/Board that people like? Deed? I feel like if we don't hit them with proper discard or start with a sword early, things get ugly real quick and there is no great mid game answer.
4 Plows, 4 TS, 4 hymn MD.
3 Ghastly Demise/Smother, 2 Pernicious Deed SB?
Running another GPT this sunday with GSZ + SFM-build, will report back next week.
In that matchup, Deed and 6 pieces of 1/2 CMC removal are your friend. Moxen are also good, since you don't get hit as hard by Port effects. SFM is a must, as Batterskull can help do damage control. Just remember Stingscourger is a card again, so don't get too greedy by putting all your eggs in one basket.
For lands in this deck, I'd never play less than 23, even with Nobles or anything like that. If you're playing Moxen, I'd bump it to 24 or 25 even.
-Matt
Yeah I will still adamantly support 3 Mox D as a requirement for current Junk builds. In this matchup especially considering port. I agree that SFM is huge here, every time I resolved her and was able to flash in Skull I won.
I am thinking about MD Deed but I'm not sure what to cut.
// Spells
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
3 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Thoughtseize
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Mox Diamond
3 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Vindicate
2 Maelstrom Pulse
// Lands
3 Wasteland
2 Bayou
1 Scrubland
1 Savannah
1 Plains
1 Forest
1 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Marsh Flats
1 Windswept Heath
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Maze of Ith
1 Karakas
I haven't had a problem with 22 lands/3 mox really.
Hi, I have been trying a different build two weeks, but just at my local shop and in MWS.
My list is bassically the standard one, but has 3 SFM+batterskull+jitte, no mox, no GSZ package, and 4 x IoK instead of 4x TS. The main difference in my build is having 3 Bitterblossom, hand, so far, it has been one of the best cards in the deck. Most victories come due to having one BB in play.
When it hits the board, it becomes a very good control card. At worst, it provides chump blockers every turn, making your knights/goyfs able to attack and attack every turn. At best, faeries start flooding the table, and are able to carry jitte and SoL&S/SoF&I like a champ over the air.
The only possible issue is life loss, but, for me it has never been a problem so far. The -1 life per turn is always better than the damage you would had been dealt with the creature they block; and, if they don't block, they are attacking and your opponent is losing usually more life than you (and jitte, SoL&S and batterskull help a lot with life issues, so is not a big problem).
Other minor issue is that we already have many 2-drops (goyf, confidant, SFM, Hymn), but I think it is not a real problem. And I have to say that it BB hates seeing deed, so I'm using engineered explosives successfully.
I know the main topic now is packages (GSZ, SFM) and the new post-MM metagame, but I just want to share these ideas with you, because they are being useful for me right now. If you have time, give it a try.
PD: sorry for any possible misspelling or mistake; English is not my mothern language.
i could see bitterblossom with SFM being more effective than a GSZ + SFM package together, but that would probably depend on your meta and preference
i have to say bitterblossom is an awesome card, and everytime i face it on my opponents side, i wish i had a vindicate immideately or i will lose