Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins 2.0
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ScatmanX
This post is gigantic...
Double tournament report.
(…)
Congratulations, Marcelo!
It was a really great performance on our metagame :laugh:
I liked your list, albeit it being quite unusual compared to what was considered consensual for most goblin players.
It is good to see a sucessfull utilization of a build relied on Chieftain/Instigator's power, and it is also good to note the ulterior general re-evaluation of the core cards, motivated by your performance :smile:.
Regarding some of your list choices, I was wondering if you ever felt a little mana-shortened due to running 18 R-sources and getting no "discount" from Warchiefs. Has that ever happened?
Also, against what did you originally planned to use Revoker ? (Only LED?)
How do you evaluate your experience with Revoker, comparing it to Needle?
Did you plan to put Revoker into play especifically through Vial? If so, did it not troubled you to keep Vial at 2 counters?
Cheers!
Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins 2.0
Quote:
Originally Posted by
andrebonotto
Congratulations, Marcelo!
It was a really great performance on our metagame :laugh:
I liked your list, albeit it being quite unusual compared to what was considered consensual for most goblin players.
It is good to see a sucessfull utilization of a Chieftain/Instigator-reliance build, and it is also good to note the ulterior general re-evaluation of the core cards, motivated by your performance :smile:.
Regarding some of your list choices, I was wondering if you ever felt a little mana-shortened due to running 18 R-sources and getting no "discount" from Warchiefs. Has that ever happened?
Also, against what did you originally planned to use Revoker ? (Only LED?)
How do you evaluate your experience with Revoker, comparing it to Needle?
Did you plan to put Revoker into play especifically through Vial? If so, did it not troubled you to keep Vial at 2 counters?
Cheers!
Thanks!
- Mana was not an issue.I got too few sometimes, and too much some other times, like any other normal build does, but it was not a recurring thing.
- Revoker was put in because it doubled as some Combo-Hate. Unfortunately I didn't had the insight to put Needle in, that is better in the matches I wanted it (UW, Maverick, and other random like Lands, Sneak attack, Painter, and others) because it dodges creature removal, while also being able to hit Fetchlands, Mishra, Maze of Ith, and others. Needle is the to go card now.
Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins 2.0
18 Red sources seems on point to me, given the shift to Warren Instigator. Historically the deck has run as few as 15-16 in 23 Land builds with full complements of Waste/Port with less double Red casting cost cards, but also maxed Warchiefs. so less need for colorless mana as well.
I tested an Instigator/Chieftain build last week with 16 Mountain, 4 Wateland, 2 Barbarian Ring and 1 Rishadan Port. It tested favorably against a slower/big Zoo variant and a Bant list. So it seems to do ok against midrange, I'm interested in seeing how it does versus a wider field.
Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins 2.0
Played in a small local tournament last night...nothing fancy (mostly just some friends playing for a few packs). I ran Scatman's list from a few posts ago with a few minor changes (-1 Barbarian Ring, -1 Sharpshooter, -1 Scrapper +1 Stingscourger, +1 Piledriver, +1 Mountain) to a 2nd place finish.
Most of the decks played around here aren't exactly tier 1, so I'll spare you the report. There is one Stoneblade player, so for the sake of the discussion:
I had been hoping for this match-up all night given Scatman's results with the list and just as an opportunity to develop my own plan against the deck since it's not all that common in the local meta. Game 1 goes pretty quickly as he drew only one blue source and I had the Tarfire for his Mystic. He dies quickly to goblin beats and we're off to game 2.
I brought in 3x REB, 1x TukTuk Scrapper and 1x Goblin Tinkerer, taking out 1x Instigatior, 1x Lackey, 2x Piledriver, 1x Stingscourger.
Game 2 went pretty well as I had the Tarfire for his Mystic and REB for Jace. I baited out a bad block (for him) to take out his Factory (didn't see a single wasteland), and end up with double lackey on an empty board and 2x Siege Gang in my hand. Here is where I made my mistake. I attack in with the lackeys and drop both Siege Gangs, leaving 6 mana open. I pass the turn, he draws, looks visibly relieved, and casts Wrath of God. I fling some goblins at his face in response and hope to draw a Ringleader or Chieftain to close it out. He has the force for my next creature and the 5th land to hardcast a Batterskull. I brick for a couple turns and it's over.
I didn't make any boarding changes for Game 3, I was pretty happy with the amount of answers I had for him in the second game so I stuck. He has a much better draw this game, landing 2 Mystics to my 2 Tarfires. A couple turns in I draw a vial and he lets it stick, which ended up costing him the game. We go long, trading card for card until he casts a third Mystic, fetching Jitte. I attempt to Tarfire it at his EoT, and he counters with a Spellstutter Sprite(!). He's able to hook the Jitte up and get in for 1 in the air, and I can't play the Instigator in my hand due to the counters. I got lucky and drew into an REB, killing the Sprite. I get lucky again two turns later and draw a Scrapper, which makes it in to kill the Jitte. He gains some life, and I Vial in an Instigator on his end step. He has a path, but I draw another Instigator. I again Vial it in at his EoT, and two turns later it is over.
Overall I think the list played very well. The only time Piledriver was relevant for me was in Round 3 against Dream Halls(!), and only to block his Progenitus. I'm not sure about running the 2nd Piledriver over the 2nd Scrapper...last night it paid off, but if I was expecting more U/W or G/W I'd probably just run the Scrapper. I didn't miss Sharpshooter at all, there was never really a time it would have been relevant.
Tarfire is easily one of the better cards in the list right now, I was never sad to draw it and even found myself considering fetching it off of Matron a couple times. Nearly all of my opponents didn't even know that there was a "goblin shock", and none of them were expecting the burn.
Lastly, I can't stress enough how critical the 3x REB were in my board. I brought them in for 3 of the 4 rounds and they were always relevant. Pyroblast is probably better in a vacuum, but I don't own any.
Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins 2.0
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Davran
The only time Piledriver was relevant for me was in Round 3 against Dream Halls(!), and only to block his Progenitus.
Progenitus has protection from piledriver (and everything else on the game), so you can't block it.
Other then that, thanks for the insight.
I could see (on the UW Matchup) Pithing Needle being as good as ReB on the moments you used (stopping Jace, and instead of killing Sprite, rending Jitte useless...).
The only thing that makes Pyroblast better than ReB now is because you can use it to destroy a Phantasmal Image that is not copying something blue.
Edit: And the 2nd Sting? How did it play out?
Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins 2.0
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Davran
Overall I think the list played very well. The only time Piledriver was relevant for me was in Round 3 against Dream Halls(!), and only to block his Progenitus. I'm not sure about running the 2nd Piledriver over the 2nd Scrapper...last night it paid off, but if I was expecting more U/W or G/W I'd probably just run the Scrapper. I didn't miss Sharpshooter at all, there was never really a time it would have been relevant.
.
Piledriver cannot block Progenitus. Part of having Protection is that a creature cannot be blocked by something it had Protection from. Since ProG has protection from everything he cannot be blocked by anything. Nor can he be targetted, and all damage dealt to him is prevented.
ProGenital, btw, cannot block Piledriver either, since Piledriver is ProBlue.
Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins 2.0
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ScatmanX
Progenitus has protection from piledriver (and everything else on the game), so you can't block it.
Other then that, thanks for the insight.
I could see (on the UW Matchup) Pithing Needle being as good as ReB on the moments you used (stopping Jace, and instead of killing Sprite, rending Jitte useless...).
The only thing that makes Pyroblast better than ReB now is because you can use it to destroy a Phantasmal Image that is not copying something blue.
Edit: And the 2nd Sting? How did it play out?
You're right about Progenitals...it had been a long day of work prior to the tournament and it seems I was a little brain addled. It appears it's carrying over to this morning...He ended up cracking me for 10 and then "going off" with the traditional Conflux/Cruel Ultimatum kill the turn after I landed the Piledriver...so my theoretical line of play with the blocking never actually happened anyway.
Pithing Needle probably would have been just as good in the U/W match, but another guy here plays a sort of homebrew U/B control list. REB is useful there for hitting things like Stifle or sending a flipped Delver on a one-way trip to the graveyard. I thought about running Revokers when I was building my board, but sometimes we get a lot of combo decks so I ultimately decided REB was more versatile. In hindsight, either would have worked just as well as the other.
As for the 2nd Stinger...it never actually came up. I used one in match 1 against a mono-black list (similar to "The Gate") to clear the way for some beats, but other than that I never really searched them out. I like to keep them in on the off chance Sneak and Show is around, and sometimes they can get there game 1 against reanimator with a vial @ 2. I've also used it to bounce a germ off of a Batterskull in the past.
Honestly, Stinger is just an effect I like having access to. It's rarely ever anything less than a blowout in my experience...for some reason no one ever expects it.
I also forgot to mention it above...but I didn't really miss Warchief either until the Dream Halls match. Cheaper goblins would have been very relevant in game 2 for a bigger alpha strike. Otherwise it seems like 18 red sources and 4 wastelands is a good place to be.
Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins 2.0
I don't get it. What for are relics in MD? Why are you cutting ports? And why do you pick Chieftein over Warchief? Ohhh, so many questions...
Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins 2.0
i see alot of people wanting artifact hate against batterskull / stoneforge. i totally agree that batterskull completely stalls the game for the goblin player and usually you cannot afford to block the damage unless its lethal and you simply dont have enough damage on board to swing into it and trade a goblin every time.
i tried running a r/b build for warren weirding which didn't do the trick.
i also tried running a r/g build for krosan grip in the board which made the deck too clunky but worked effectively when i drew 1 grip for every equipment.
after recent mono red testing iv'e come to the conclusion that the best artifact hate card available is shattering spree. it costs 1 red mana and has replicate for 1R.
if your opponent assembles voltron (batterskull + Sword of fire and ice + umezawa's jitte) you can easily dispatch all of it with just one shattering spree replicated 3 or 4 times. if you make an extra copy or two there is NO WAY they can counter all the spells. and you can sweep all the artifacts on their board.
it is EXTREMELY effective againt blue/white and i have not lost a game against blue/white if i was able to cast shattering spree. they only run one of each equipment and they have ZERO WAYS to get said equipment back. after batterskull is gone blue/white decks usually only have stoneforge mystic, vendillion clique, and snapcaster mage to attack and block with and those creatures simply CAN NOT WIN THE GAME WITHOUT BATTERSKULL LEADING THE CHARGE.
also sharpshooter is hella fun once batterskull is dead!
Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins 2.0
i think non-goblin artifact hate is not worth the space in the sideboard. It is fine to include krosan grip for having access to enchantment hate but i actually think tuktuk and TSH do enough against equipment. They are matronable and ringleader-friendly and that is what matters. Especially tuktuk is amazing against blue because it dodges spell snare and counterbalance. Moreover it has instant speed with a vial down.
Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins 2.0
Hi guys, I'm new in this thread. I'm italian, so please sorry for my english :tongue:
Recently, I made top4 on a 87 people tournament: http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/dec...2&iddeck=54327
It's a pretty classic list, except for Tarfire which I found really impressive. My meta is Maverick, Stoneblade, RUG, and few Show&Tell.decks. The matchup I found:
1st round: Bant Stoneblade (1-0)
2nd round: Spiral Tide (2-1, I put a lot of pressure mulliganing into first turn Lackey. G2 he won because he stifled (???) my Lackey :eek:)
3rd round: UBR Tempo with Delver, Confidant, Lavamancer and lots of removals (2-0, pretty easy)
4th round: Sneak&Show (2-1, much pressure mulliganing into Lackey, he won G1 with second turn S&T into Emrakul :mad:)
5th round: Sneak&Show (1-2)
6th round: GW Maverick (1-2, I lost G3 because I kept this hand: 2 Lackey, 2 Ringleaders, Tarfire, Tin Street Hooligans and Mountain, unless I found a second land drop)
7th round: White Wheenie with Kor Firewalker in the board (2-1, thanks to Sharpshooter!)
Top8: the same Sneak&Show of 5th round (2-0, really impressive games)
Top4: Punishing Maverick (0-2, bad matchup)
So, I want to ask the experts of this deck why cut Piledrivers and Warchiefs for Instigators and Chieftains. I found Warchief one of the best cards; although Warchief, I was able to assume the control role in some games, successfully. Piledriver can also be used as "removal".
I found this deck really strong, because it is able to assume both control role and aggro role really well. So I ask you for clarifications about cutting Warchief and Piledriver.
Thank you.
Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins 2.0
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Horsy
So, I want to ask the experts of this deck why cut Piledrivers and Warchiefs for Instigators and Chieftains. I found Warchief one of the best cards; although Warchief, I was able to assume the control role in some games, successfully. Piledriver can also be used as "removal".
Like anything, it's just a matter of preference and/or your local meta. For me, the Chieftain/Instigator list is exactly what I need to be fast enough to win games. For others, the more "traditional" Warchief/Piledriver list may be perfect. Build the deck for what you expect to face in any given tournament and the little green men will do the rest :cool:
Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins 2.0
Quote:
Originally Posted by
fimo
i think non-goblin artifact hate is not worth the space in the sideboard. It is fine to include krosan grip for having access to enchantment hate but i actually think tuktuk and TSH do enough against equipment. They are matronable and ringleader-friendly and that is what matters. Especially tuktuk is amazing against blue because it dodges spell snare and counterbalance. Moreover it has instant speed with a vial down.
I do find Tuktuk amazing and run two maindeck. But in my area*, I find two pieces of artifact hate leave me wanting more. I've started to use Shattering Spree out of the sideboard. With replicate, it gives me the extra outs I need.
*Stone Blade, Bant Blade, Junk w/Stoneforge, and Affinity have many players.
Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins 2.0
Quote:
Originally Posted by
GoblinSettler
I do find Tuktuk amazing and run two maindeck. But in my area*, I find two pieces of artifact hate leave me wanting more. I've started to use Shattering Spree out of the sideboard. With replicate, it gives me the extra outs I need.
*Stone Blade, Bant Blade, Junk w/Stoneforge, and Affinity have many players.
I currently run 2 TukTuk Scrappers main and 1 Goblin Tinkerer in the side. I had Shattering Spree for a while, but after the 3rd or 4th time of putting it on the bottom off of a Ringleader when I needed it I switched to the current package and haven't looked back. I don't think you can discount the value of being able to tutor your artifact hate up with a Matron either.
On a somewhat related note - does anyone have any advice for Punishing Maverick post board? I figure I'll run a Boartusk Liege at a minimum, and the Chieftains help...but I still feel dead to Punishing Fire. It seems that Grove of the Burnwillows is "waste on sight"...but beyond that I haven't had any actual play experience vs. the deck, so any thoughts are welcome.
Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins 2.0
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Davran
On a somewhat related note - does anyone have any advice for Punishing Maverick post board? I figure I'll run a Boartusk Liege at a minimum, and the Chieftains help...but I still feel dead to Punishing Fire. It seems that Grove of the Burnwillows is "waste on sight"...but beyond that I haven't had any actual play experience vs. the deck, so any thoughts are welcome.
Never played against it, but it seems resolving Blood Moon is almost GG, since the list has 1 Basic land. Other than that, Tinkerer and Boartusk may be nice too.
Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins 2.0
I have a few questions about this deck, and the main one is how competitive is it? By that i mean i'm going to a legacy open in June and want to play this(i've been playing goblins since i started playing magic over a decade ago) but my problem is i don't really want to go to a bigger event without a deck that has a chance to do well(it doesn't have to be flawless but like a 5-3 record would make me happy). I understand that my playskill is a big factor but i'm confident in that just want to know general issues with worst matchups.
P.s. Sorry for the exceedingly long post.
Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins 2.0
It seems sketchy to pick your deck for June in February. A new set comes out next week, and there will be another one released in May...who knows what effect (if any) that will have on the metagame. My advice would be to take a look at the metagame a few weeks before you go to the event and build your list then.
As far as whether or not the deck is "competitive"...it is. If you know what you're doing and how to play the strengths and weaknesses of the deck it'll treat you well. Take a look at all of the past discussion on this thread and also the "Vial Goblins" thread this one replaced. Goblins has been a viable archetype for quite some time, and I don't see that changing any time soon.
Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins 2.0
Thanks...I've been following the thread so far and the only reason i'm picking this now is i have limited funds and pretty much everything for this deck as opposed to FOw decks. If i'm reading it right it seems like combo is the worst match up followed by Maverick...has anyone considered skred to help stave off creatures atleast in the Maverick mu? I saw lightning bolt but it seems like skred could be really helpful and snow lands would be no more of a target for wastes than a reg land.
Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins 2.0
Quote:
Originally Posted by
razor937
Thanks...I've been following the thread so far and the only reason i'm picking this now is i have limited funds and pretty much everything for this deck as opposed to FOw decks. If i'm reading it right it seems like combo is the worst match up followed by Maverick...has anyone considered skred to help stave off creatures atleast in the Maverick mu? I saw lightning bolt but it seems like skred could be really helpful and snow lands would be no more of a target for wastes than a reg land.
I like Skred. I think it is cool and flavorful. I am not sure that it is right here, because turn two it functions like Tarfire, turn three like Bolt. Probably not enough to kill a Tarmogoyf or Knight.
I would instead go up to two Stingscourgers to clear large threats. Tarfire will handle most creatures in Maverick if you can work around Mother of Runes's protection.
Maybe Surgical Extraction, or other preferred gravehate from the sideboard. You want to stop the recurring removal. Eventually a horde of goblins should be able to take the ground.
Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins 2.0
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Davran
It seems sketchy to pick your deck for June in February. A new set comes out next week, and there will be another one released in May...who knows what effect (if any) that will have on the metagame. My advice would be to take a look at the metagame a few weeks before you go to the event and build your list then.
As far as whether or not the deck is "competitive"...it is. If you know what you're doing and how to play the strengths and weaknesses of the deck it'll treat you well. Take a look at all of the past discussion on this thread and also the "Vial Goblins" thread this one replaced. Goblins has been a viable archetype for quite some time, and I don't see that changing any time soon.
I actually think it's a very wise decision if you are planning on doing well. You need a ton of practice to really master any archetype so it's best to start when you can.
