Re: [Deck] Nic Fit (GBW Explorer Zenith Control)
Guys,
I came into this thread with a comment about the deck's origins and I feel the need to elaborate on this. This is important for me and my crew who have put in many hours of labor into this deck. Here are the relevant quotes in this thread concerning the origins of the deck:
Quote:
Originally Posted by
bruizar
As an aside, our testing group brought this deck to MWS about half a year before the Amsterdam GP which was during that time that the Nic Fit archetype was coined. It was obviously an imitation of the original deck my test crew had designed, as it had most of the elements except for the fact that the role of the deck is totally different. Our deck was a combo deck that accelerated the gamestate and could still win with a good plan B if the combo would be folded, or combo out when the creatures couldn't fend off the aggression. The decks that have spawned from this original deck are the lists you see in this thread. These decks are more rockstyle decks and are not high impact enough for tier 1 legacy play imo.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Arianrhod
Your claim that your team developed the deck originally is invalid and irrelevant for several reasons, but I suppose I should address it anyway:
-) This is the first you've appeared in a year+ old thread, so obviously you don't care about the deck.
-) As you note, this deck is different from what you developed anyway.
-) I can't speak for Tao and everyone else in the thread from the early days, but I thought of the Explorer/Therapy concept individually and came to Source with it. I didn't netdeck it from anyone. Saying that it's an "imitation" is only going to piss people off.
This thread is for a primarily rock-style control deck. This isn't Solar Flare. This isn't a combo deck that is strictly worse than every other combo deck in the format. And if you think that this "isn't good enough for tier 1 play," what are you doing here other than angering the people who have actually put the time and effort into this deck? Go away, troll.
Oh, and by the way, this deck has acquired a good fistful of top 8s that disagree with you, especially considering that it isn't a popular deck, and there are basically no professional level players that run it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Viridia
I really don't want to join in on the flame-war, but you really don't have any right of saying anything without actually giving us a list with card choices etc. explained and testing results.
My brother, known on this forum as KMS, was the first to propose the engine in the Aluren thread. My brother played aluren before what was ultimately coined nic-fit. In the Aluren thread, more than 1 year ago, the engine was proposed for the Aluren build.
Source-link: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...666#post512666
Quote:
01-07-2011 02:41 AM#759
KMS
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Join Date
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Posts
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Re: [Deck] Aluren
Great post Manadrain
On topic
As for mana acceleration I won't be using bop/mox/spirit guides.. Instead this is what I use, in my experiance the synergy is outstanding.
Veteran Explorer
Academy Rector
+
Diabolic Intent
Cabal Therapy
Slaugterpact
Phyrexian Tower. This land is insane. It does this, Turn 2 `add 5 mana of any color to your manapool` Wich means you can pay for daze, cast therapy when you put in aluren, else with Rector you can cast therapy and go of anyways.
Also I think show and tell is the best matchup against Aluren.. they help you go off quite efficiantly. If you happen to loose game 1 then on game 2 you should win for sure, if not try to mulligan to at least aluren, In my built I either need aluren or a ractor, versus emraku rector goes to removed when emraku attacks and then I go off
Quote:
11-29-2010 11:40 AM#721
KMS
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Join Date
Mar 2009
Posts
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Re: [Deck] Aluren
Originally Posted by KMS
.
Veteran explorer is great Cabal Therapy feed as well for diaboic intent.
The singleton Hymn is a tutor target, for example:
Veteran Explorer in play, cast tutor, search 2x swamp search hymn and cast.
The Rishadan Cutpurse whipes the board versus protective cards.
Counter top and gaddock teeg kills me.. any ideas ?
Quote:
Originally Posted by kiblast
i'd like to introduce Diabolic intent and Veteran explorer in Aluren...try it is amazing. 90% of the times provides all you need to go off next turn. Veteran is also good with cabal therapies.
How do you mean you like to introduce since it already is introduced... don't run off and take credits on stuffs you dd not invent.. some people might feel tricked you see
Our deck, which was still in-the-brew, was being tested on MWS extensively. A lot of players, among them many judges, have played against him and asked about the deck. One of those players was Vincent Bonnevialle, who was testing for BoM in Annecy.
And, for the dutch speakers, here is proof of a facebook post I made to tell my group it wasn't smart to play the deck on MWS when we had it sleeved right here in our gauntlet.
Quote:
Yo gasten.
Ik heb al 2 lijsten publiek gezien met veteran explorer. Echt niet handig hoor, dat testen op MWS. Tegen de tijd dat de GP Amsterdam is kent iedereen dat deck inmiddels al...
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...ith-Control%29
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...049#post553049
Nic Fit (GBW Explorer Zenith Control)
www.mtgthesource.com
This is a Rock style control deck based on Veteran Explorer, Green Sun's Zenith and classic Green White Black control elements mixed with a few goodies from the newer editions. I will explain the deck's strategy and what I found in testing with a card by card explanation card. // Lands 4 V
Like · · Unfollow Post · Share · May 28, 2011 at 1:13am
***** Ok niet chill, ik ga het deck niet meer op MWS spelen... Wel arelaxed zeg..
May 28, 2011 at 4:34am · Like
ME
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...teran-Explorer
May 28, 2011 at 10:43am · Like
ME Infinite persist lijkt heel erg op ****'s deck
May 28, 2011 at 10:44am · Like
As you can see, these facebook posts were made 15 hours after the Nic Fit thread was made (created on 05-27-2011 09:07 AM). This should be enough proof to validate our efforts in the archetype. We've put in many hours of testing and it feels pretty bad to be brushed off by others as a 'troll'. Those who were inspired by either the MWS games or the Aluren thread should be man enough to give credit where it's due.
Many of the cards proposed in this thread were also tested by us long ago. Some of these cards include Kokusho and Sun Titan, but they were ultimately cut for being redundant/clunky/unfocused/inconsistent. The Intuition list I posted is the result of a long cycle of tests and was ultimately deemed by us as the most powerful engine. That said, our players have had differences on opinions on Gitaxian Probe vs Brainstorm, the focus of zenith targets vs silver bullets, and Diabolic Intent.
I would, on behalf of our dedicated players, appreciate the recognition for our efforts into the archetype, backed by the proof given in this post.
KMS was the first to build the framework of the explorer engine
Mtgthesource member Mantis has contributed to the deck immensely by giving it the palinchron win condition.
I simply tested a lot and proposed changes. The unburial rites package was introduced by me, but was actually proposed by a clever user in the Innistrad spoiler thread who's name I cannot come up with now.
Re: [Deck] Nic Fit (GBW Explorer Zenith Control)
I hope you can at least respect our (maybe just my?) position too, though, Bruizar. I have no doubt at all that you guys were working on your thing too, and I have no problem including that in the primer and getting you recognition for your build. For most, if not all of us, when you randomly posted saying that this was your deck, we'd never heard of you or anything you'd done. We've been working hard on our lists, our versions for equally quite a long time now. I hope you can see where that could come off as rather offensive.
Again, I have no problem with accrediting you guys your version. In my opinion, the more versions of this deck and the more people that are willing to discuss it intelligently and contribute to its growth, the better. I'm actually intensely proud of this thread and the sense of community that we, as Nic Fit players, have. We've generated almost 100 pages of quality discourse in just over a year, and that's no mean feat. What I do have a problem with is when any one person tries to lay claim to someone else's work. This archetype is a community effort, and I will never disavow anyone their contributions. Just don't make heavy-handed statements and we'll get along fine. Keep in mind that at the end of the day, regardless of when anyone first thought up the Cabal Therapy / Veteran Explorer interaction at the core of the deck, most of us in this thread thought of the interaction on our own, built our own decks around it, and then came here to refine and tune. It's as much mine as it is yours, as it is Tao's, as it is Qweerios's, as it is Durward's, as it is HoneyT's, as it is Higashi's, as it is Claymore's, as it is Megadeus's, as it is Alexeezay's, as it is Phillipp's, and Dakkon's and Pollepot's and Architect's and Greenpoe's. The list goes on and on. I value every single contribution in this thread. I may not agree with them all, but I value them still.
So while I think it's great that you guys have your version, have built it up from scratch and tested it, tuned it, ran it, won with it and lost with it...it isn't JUST yours. It's ours, too, and I would no sooner exclude you from the community of Nic Fit than I would anyone else that has posted in this thread. You have as much of a right to be here as any of the rest of us: no more, no less.
Re: [Deck] Nic Fit (GBW Explorer Zenith Control)
@Arianrhod:
I would appreciate a mention in the primer greatly. The reason why I am posting here at all is because I do see this as a community effort. We all get inspiration from somewhere, and that's not a big deal. Some people may have seen a post or played an MWS game, but others might just have had the same idea at the same time, it happens. Regardless of whether you got it from your own flash of insight, or from others, we all share a similar fascination for the explorer-engine and we're all spending our time to make this deck function the best way it can. I mean, I didn't invent the unburial rites combo either, I just placed it in this framework that was already handed to me by KMS and Mantis at the time.
We kept our list a secret because we wanted to bring it to the GP in Amsterdam and release it after that. Our intention for this deck is to grow and become a viable tier 1 or 1.5 deck. I provided proof of my statements to show that I am being truthful about what I am claiming here. Obviously I am not trying to undo the efforts that you guys have collectively done here the past year. I hope you can include our project-amsterdam in the primer, and that it will be adopted as one of the 4 Nic-Fit routes of choice (intuition/gifts/scapewish/rector). There is a lot of love for this type of deck and this is generally a very good sign. Let's not turn this into sour bickering and try to work together to optimize the lists even further.
Future of the deck
As for the future of this deck, I am very excited about the advent of Return to Ravnica as we have 2 great zenith tribes to play with: Seleysnia (tokens?=therapy/nightmare fodder) and Golgari (contracts?graveyard?=intuition/gifts fodder). I am willing to make a small bet that this archetype will get some decent printings in the coming weeks.
Gitaxian Probe
Gitaxian Probe deserves more attention in this thread, especially if you're on the Meddling Mage plan post board. That card is seriously good and I'm even thinking of cutting a deed / intent for the 3rd or 4th extra gitaxian probes.
Re: [Deck] Nic Fit (GBW Explorer Zenith Control)
I originally saw the durward article and read about the deck. I told my self if I ever built a legacy deck this would be it (at a time when even building a tier standard deck for me wasn't possible). Then everyone at my LGS began to play legacy, mostly maverick and UR Delver because the guy who won 2 opens with UR plays here a lot. It is nice having a deck that smashes everything I play against haha. But all in all I never had this idea, I just love the idea of disruption and pernicious deed.
While I haven't really contributed any original ideas to the thread, I am always up to discuss anything no matter how awful it seems! It's great when I spread my deck out and people just look at it and call it a pile of trash. All the better to hear when I smash face!
Re: [Deck] Nic Fit (GBW Explorer Zenith Control)
@Arianrhod:
With regard to Sadistic Sacrement it has proven to be effective to take out key cards in opponents deck that's 1 or 2-offs, but I can understand the point taking out 3 out of 4 cards. Makes no sense. Actually I haven't had Cranial Extraction in my "collection", but is on the way from a US dealer, and will be included in the SB. But will not write of the Sadistic Sacrement completely though.
Kokusho vs Yosei? It's a bit hard I think. The first build I had with Recurring Nightmare/Rector package included both, but was to much and ended up including Kokusho because of the not-targed life loss and life-gain. My meta have Lands.dec and Enchantress where Kokusho has proven to be effective because of Glacial Chasm (Lands.dec) and Solitary Conefinement (Enchantress), whereas we would be almost dead on board else. But where could Yosei be good? Tapping permanents and denying the opponent to untap is great, but isn't it just going to stall their progress or to launch an alpha-strike to win? I haven't tested Yosei to much to write him of completely, see him as an lategame option, where we should have the control already.
Actually I did side Kokusho out a lot a the tournament two days ago, because when I had him (or drew Fierce Empath) I would rather have another card or Sun Titan, so maybe I will try him out and report back, but will first have results in a week or two.
/PollePotDK
Re: [Deck] Nic Fit (GBW Explorer Zenith Control)
I am working on build that utilizes excess mana on aggression and disruption instead of gaining control (something like Eva Green on steroids). In that build, Gitaxian Probe also works wonders, effectievly turning a Cabal Therapy into cheaper and better Hymn to Tourach and providing so much needed information.
Since it also works soo good for bruizar's comboish approach, the card seems to be more attractive if you choose to build less controlish Nic Fit.
Re: [Deck] Nic Fit (GBW Explorer Zenith Control)
Firemind, I also have a build that goes balls out on mana accel. I'm having a bit of trouble on giving the deck some direction that can't be disrupted by the increasingly popular Karakas (Oona, Ob Nixilis). I have additional accel in the form of Culling the Weak and Collective Voyage, which pump out Phyrexian Obliterators and landfall creatures (Rampaging Baloth, Ob Nixilis) in addition to Prime and Grave Titans. I used to run Oona but she is sometimes too delicate, although I might just replace her again since her ability is awesome and she can help stabilize a board...
What's the aim of your deck?
By the way, have decks with Primeval Titan/Grave Titan ever considered either Arena or Contested Cliffs for removal? Cliffs would require red and beasts, which we only really run Thragtusk or Garruk 1 or 2, but is a better land and something to think about. Would work well with Viridian Emissary and Eternal Witness to shoot delvers, and Grave Titan will kill almost anything in the Arena with his Deathtouch.
Btw, a 2x of Viridian Emissary seems to be helping my Rector Fit inplace of disruption.
Re: [Deck] Nic Fit (GBW Explorer Zenith Control)
Yay, split 1st/2nd with Valakut/Scapewish nicfit at our local tournament today. I won a ger. white boarded Plateau.
2-1 vs Bant Maverick w/ Punishing Fire
2-1 vs Jund Nic Fit
2-1 vs Shardless Agent BUG America
2-0 vs UW Miracle Control
& Draw against Merfolk, a very skilled local who might have won. Turns out I lost 0-2 when we played for the First Pick (Prize) because g1 he was too fast and tempo'd me out, g2 I got flooded heavily despite having a Sensei's Divining Top.
Awkward that I won every game via Scapeshift, never had the chance to beat down with big guys...
ps: I played Arianrhod's list but replaced a Huntmaster with Wickerbough Elder. I also tried the SB Phyrexian Arena but only resolved/drew it once against jund fit & he killed it right away with W.Elder. It should be good against Miracle and Esper Blade in theory...
Re: [Deck] Nic Fit (GBW Explorer Zenith Control)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Alexeezay
Awkward that I won every game via Scapeshift, never had the chance to beat down with big guys...
Unsurprising to me. it's a 1-card kill condition. The thing that is holding back the lists in this thread is the use of redundant fatties. It's time you guys start cutting chaff like Thragtusk.
congrats on the split
Re: [Deck] Nic Fit (GBW Explorer Zenith Control)
Yea I know. "Awkward" should have been "funny" because a lot of my opponents were shocked when they saw this win condition they never thought of would ruin their day, haha. But they took it with a smile and had fun.
Re: [Deck] Nic Fit (GBW Explorer Zenith Control)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
bruizar
blahblah blah
Veteran Explorer / Cabal Therapy is an old interaction. It was played in a way old school Planeswalker Rock around the time when Shards of Alara was first printed. You weren't the first to find this interaction.
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...neswalker-Rock
Circa February, 2010.
Please stop bringing your ego into the deck history. It's not useful or productive.
Re: [Deck] Nic Fit (GBW Explorer Zenith Control)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Koby
Valakut is actually my favorite ice cream.
You see ladies and gentlemen, but I actually invented Nic Fit. The deck was named after my great-grandpappy, Nicholas Fitticus. He was a kind old Jewish man. Always went to temple. Something about sacrifice as the key to exploring our futures. I miss that guy.
Re: [Deck] Nic Fit (GBW Explorer Zenith Control)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
RaNDoMxGeSTuReS
You see ladies and gentlemen, but I actually invented Nic Fit. The deck was named after my great-grandpappy, Nicholas Fitticus. He was a kind old Jewish man. Always went to temple. Something about sacrifice as the key to exploring our futures. I miss that guy.
:) Love it.
This deck was a rock variant/update that simply changed Birds to Explorer. Not much has changed (except efficiency) since them. Luckily, nobody remembers... NEVER FORGET.
Re: [Deck] Nic Fit (GBW Explorer Zenith Control)
Oh how I loved Planeswalker Rock :) Sadly, it was even easier to go to time with that build ;)
Re: [Deck] Nic Fit (GBW Explorer Zenith Control)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Koby
I've seen Michael "Wuaschti" Thiel of Germany been playing Veteran Explorer/Therapy as early as 2007 in Germany.
Re: [Deck] Nic Fit (GBW Explorer Zenith Control)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Koby
Veteran Explorer / Cabal Therapy is an old interaction. It was played in a way old school Planeswalker Rock around the time when Shards of Alara was first printed. You weren't the first to find this interaction.
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...neswalker-Rock
Circa February, 2010.
Please stop bringing your ego into the deck history. It's not useful or productive.
An interaction doesn't make up for an entire deck. Decks get their identity not by a single interaction but by the strategy it is trying to execute. Not every deck with Brainstorm + Force of Will = Esperblade, or for that matter a control deck.
Swords to Plowshares, nor 7 planeswalkers, nor Sensei's Divining Top, nor Thoughtseize nor the Kitchen Finks belong in the strategy.
Did explorer / therapy exist before? Well, Since apocalypse was released in 2001, judgment in 2002 and weatherlight in 1997, of course this existed before. These individual cards say very little about the strategy of the deck. Luckily, the link you posted outlines the deck's philosophy:
Quote:
Deck's Philosophy
The main idea of the deck is to chumpblock, sword, discard, choose your draw with top during the first turns. The opponent will be enclined or urged to play several threats. Once he does, we sweep the board with deed. If the opponent still does not want to (or can't) overextend, we start to play Planeswalkers. From here, he'll die if he does not find any solution. Don't forget that you don't care at all to lose your creatures. So chumpblock to gain time. Don't hasistate to play witness in order to find your 4th land drop too. The deck has enough redundancy to deal with almost everything. Just focus in expadning your mana base during the first turns.
What happens if Deed gets discarded or coutnered? Here Witness comes into play.
What happens if you can't find Deed? It usually means you've found a lot of other stuff. The Recurring Nightmare plan is also very effective and the Planeswalker are always difficult to get through. The deck is not that much Deed dependant actually.
Did you notice that this deck is completely Spell Snare proof? you can argue that it's a bad curve but you'd be wrong. The deck plays enough 1CC spells and top to know what to do with its mana for the 2 first turns. If you don't get 2 manas by turn 3, you're anyway in deep shit. But don't worry, this does not happen often.
I'd like to highlight The main idea of the deck is to chumpblock, sword, discard, choose your draw with top during the first turns.
That is an entirely different strategic direction compared to what Nic Fit does, today. The strategy is to accelerate into the late game, so that early-game/mid-game plays are outclassed by late game bombs. This is, at the same time, the weakness of Nic Fit, because it lures players into running expensive cards that are only playable once your veteran explorers trigger, thus needlessly leading you into hands that you have to mulligan and opening you up to a stifle-blowout.
Please don't tell me anything about bringing my ego into this. I am coming up for others who have put their blood sweat and tears into the deck, and while I have also worked on the deck, my own contributions are mostly limited to the (existing) Unburial Rites package and a non-graveyard combo kill. I have not claimed to invent either Nic Fit nor the Unburial Rites package. What I claim is that my friends have worked on this since 2010. Before this thread was created, they tested extensively on MWS for hours a day (4 / 5 hours) for at least several weeks that I know of. Against my advice they proceeded to test online until I stumbled upon this thread 15 hours after its creation. The strategic direction of the opening thread was the same as the deck that we were playing, although we gradually shifted into a combo deck with deed+beatdown fallback plan after realizing that the higher curve just makes the deck more inconsistent.
That said, regardless of the strategic differences, it would be a very good idea to mention the builds that utilized the veteran explorer engine in the past in the opening page. Not only does it give credit to those who have found the interaction in the past, it also gives people that are new to the deck a historical overview of the evolution of some of the most important cards in the deck. If you see anything wrong with accurately describing the history of a deck, I would be very interested to know your reasons for this.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
RaNDoMxGeSTuReS
You see ladies and gentlemen, but I actually invented Nic Fit. The deck was named after my great-grandpappy, Nicholas Fitticus. He was a kind old Jewish man. Always went to temple. Something about sacrifice as the key to exploring our futures. I miss that guy.
Fine, go and derail the thread. If you want the next 96 pages of this thread to turn into a big flame / troll and undo the efforts of everyone in this thread for the last year, get on the flamewagon.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
damionblackgear
:) Love it.
This deck was a rock variant/update that simply changed Birds to Explorer. Not much has changed (except efficiency) since them. Luckily, nobody remembers...
NEVER FORGET.
Please read above 2 replies to Koby and Randomgestures as they both apply to you as well.
Re: [Deck] Nic Fit (GBW Explorer Zenith Control)
I'm very interested in your version of the deck Bruizar, you keep dropping in here that you have an amazing combo-kill but i don't think i have actually seen the full decklist yet?
Re: [Deck] Nic Fit (GBW Explorer Zenith Control)
I think it's the Gifts Ungiven+Unburial Rites version he postet 1-2 pages ago.
But I don't see how it's a very amazing combo kill...Griselbrand and Palinchron are vulnerable to removal & there is no card in the deck list to use the infinite mana from Palinchron lol... Maybe add a Storm card(Tendrils,Grapeshot) or X-mana kill spell ?
But then you're probably just better off playing a fast combo deck like SneakShow or ANT/TES.
Re: [Deck] Nic Fit (GBW Explorer Zenith Control)
Yeah that's why i'd be interested in a full list, just to see what is actually going on exactly.
Re: [Deck] Nic Fit (GBW Explorer Zenith Control)
Palinchron is used to generate infinite mana for infinite recurring nightmare swaps for infinite eternal witness triggers. Between Diabolic Intent, Intuition and Gitaxian Probe, there is enough draw to grab your entire deck, cabal therapy and pernicious deed every card, then swing for lethal.
The non-graveyard dependent combo utilizes Phantasmal Image with Palinchron, which also generates infinite mana, but without the need for a graveyard. If you have a deed, you can blow the deed for infinite and replay 2 4/5 flyers after you've bounced them before blowing up the pernicious deed. At that point, pretty much any tutor (GSZ/Intuition/Intent+Arbor) draws you into a combo win, though 2x 4/5 on an empty board is usually enough to win.
Griselbrand is used as the preboard 'vanilla' reanimate target, but he may be swapped in exchange for Iona, Shield of Emeria, Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite or non-legendary creatures such as Woodfall Primus. Griselbrand buries your opponent in card advantage and is usually enough to win the game with, though I'm still considering swapping this out for something else.
Also, quiet often, the first intuition is used to find 3 Cabal Therapies and the first Diabolic Intent is used to find the miser Hymn to Tourach.
I'll be posting an updated list in the thread soon.
edit:
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Alexeezay
I think it's the Gifts Ungiven+Unburial Rites version he postet 1-2 pages ago.
But I don't see how it's a very amazing combo kill...Griselbrand and Palinchron are vulnerable to removal & there is no card in the deck list to use the infinite mana from Palinchron lol... Maybe add a Storm card(Tendrils,Grapeshot) or X-mana kill spell ?
But then you're probably just better off playing a fast combo deck like SneakShow or ANT/TES.
I use intuition instead of gifts ungiven, because the packages of intuition are better and the card is cheaper to cast. You don't need a storm card, because it's redundant. Opening with Tendrils of Agony / Grapeshot = auto mulligan. Same for burn spells except maybe Bonfire of the Damned, but I'm not running red. I can put at least 27 power on the table, leave the opponent with 0 cards in hand and 0 on the board. That is more than enough to win. Even in the off-chance that my UW miracles opponent topdecks a terminus, I can bounce Palinchron and Phantasmal Image in response and just hard-cast+attack him to death. That is basically the worst thing that can happen and it can only happen out of sheer luck against 1 deck out of all of the decks in Legacy. I can assure you that even if this worst-case scenario occurs, I will still win with 2 4/5 flyers that can bounce in response to removal.
