[Deck] 12 Post

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Originally Posted by Ivan

Thank you alot!! I will test these days all things u write. Last question, how is revoker in sideboard? I think he has narrow uses.

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It's strong in all the places it needs to be. Sometimes you need to shut off extra abilities. Sometimes you need to hit mana abilities like Lion's Eye Diamond. And sometimes you just need to gum up the ground. You don't board in Revoker all the time (like Rock says), but there are definitely a handful of matches where you'll be glad to have the option.

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Originally Posted by TimHarding

The big issue is that in reanimator you aren't going to come back from a griselbrand draw 7, too many counters. You can handle the fatties (tyrant isn't very easy to come back though), so in making griselbrand a 7/7 lifelink, you turn the game plan into the same plan you have against goyfs. If you don't proactively shut off griz, you are relying solely on crop-bog, preventing any monster from entering at all - add show and tell into the mix and you're in a bad spot.

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A thousand times this. Griselbrand draw-seven is pretty much a guaranteed loss. Gaining just two life - via stalling or Glimmerpost or whatever - buys you an extra turn to figure out how to stop it from hitting you. We don't have to care how much life a reanimator player is gaining so long as he can't convert it into cards. Tidespout Tyrant is a huge pain, as is the fact that they also utilize Show and Tell as a Plan C or D or E or whatever. So glad no one in my area is currently on reanimator.

Yeah, post board most reanimator decks go to Tidespout and Ashen Rider anyway.

Rock Lee, congrats on another excellent performance! I know you've put in a lot of work creating and developing this deck, and I'm glad your efforts are paying off.

I'm putting this deck together to give it a spin, and while I have some experience piloting pretty much every Legacy archetype (including even obscure ones like Lands and Imperial Painter), this seems way different than anything else I've seen, so I'm pretty sure the learning curve will be steep. Compounding this is that your optimal 75 seems to change pretty significantly from week to week (I've seen things like Oracle of Mul-Daya, Deathrite Shaman, Bonfire of the Damned, Sneak Attack, and Punishing Fire at various points).

The U/G list you ran last weekend seems to be the stock list, and I assume deviations from that are intended to combat the expected metagame. Can you briefly discuss the strengths and weaknesses of the stock list, particularly with regards to specific matchups, and then describe the motivation behind some of the changes you've made at various points? Thanks!

Hey everyone! Just a quick question: What are your opinions on the mono green version of this deck that put up a top-8 result in the SCG Open in LA?

I have pretty much everything needed for the G version and I am wondering if it is worth putting together or if that list was strictly a meta call.

Thanks in advance!

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Originally Posted by lordofthepit

Rock Lee, congrats on another excellent performance! I know you've put in a lot of work creating and developing this deck, and I'm glad your efforts are paying off.

I'm putting this deck together to give it a spin, and while I have some experience piloting pretty much every Legacy archetype (including even obscure ones like Lands and Imperial Painter), this seems way different than anything else I've seen, so I'm pretty sure the learning curve will be steep. Compounding this is that your optimal 75 seems to change pretty significantly from week to week (I've seen things like Oracle of Mul-Daya, Deathrite Shaman, Bonfire of the Damned, Sneak Attack, and Punishing Fire at various points).

The U/G list you ran last weekend seems to be the stock list, and I assume deviations from that are intended to combat the expected metagame. Can you briefly discuss the strengths and weaknesses of the stock list, particularly with regards to specific matchups, and then describe the motivation behind some of the changes you've made at various points? Thanks!

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Thank you for the precise and comprehensive question.

The "stock" list of U/G is 3 basics, 2-3 needles, with a flex slot of 2-3 sweepers. Moment's peace is the meta call "sweeper" of choice atm. Additionally 3 basics are enormous at the moment both against wasteland and blood moon. More generally, the standard list fare better against mana and hand denial, so with BuG running rampant, it is the stablest of builds. The Punishing Fire build is stronger against Bug as a whole, but weaker against blood moons or elves.

In the past I have splashed red for the cards mentioned and a few others simply because red offers removal and kill colors. Great responses to Blood Moon, all in the control, removal, and combo variants. Punishing fire was very strong against BUG, but ultimately awkwardly suffered as an archetype against Blood Moon. Sneak Attack suffered from the same discard strategies you were trying to fight. Bonfire required setup and was amazing when it worked, but was more of a meta-recoil against Young Pyromancer.

The GSZ and green creature movement was an initial attempt to fight BUG by out-advantaging them, but ultimately played directly into their grindy plan.

The Ensnaring Bridge plan in a UG shell fits magnificently in a slot that beats BUG. When their discard is online Bridge works better. When they don't have discard it has to be countered/removed anyway.

With M15 less than 2 months away and the highly projected Waste Not stirring swamply leviathans, having a strong plan against discard is a must and I consider this meta experiment highly pertinent.


For Playstyle advice. I think the best advice possible is "never goldfish." If you're going to solo test, do it two-fisted tested against other decks. Or something I do all the time is to set a specific encounter parameter. A Few that I regularly use are as follows:
"Opponent plays DRS T1, Hymn + waste Turn 2. Liliana Turn 3, Goyf Turn 4 as a 4/5. Do I beat this?"
"Opponent plays 1 lightning bolt a turn, stopping at 3 land drops. Do I beat this?"
"Opponent plays Duress turn 1, Empty the warrens for 14 goblins turn 2. Do I beat this?"
"Opponent plays Natural Order for lethal on turn 3, DRS turn 4, can activate it 4 times every turn thereafter. Do I beat this?"
"Opponent plays Delver T1, self flips, plays 3 wastelands the next 3 turns. Do I beat this?"
"Opponent gets Counterbalance/Top lock on turn 2. They have 2 force of wills. They entreat for 3 on turn 6. Do I beat this?"

For Hand-Keeping advice, I suggest "never keep on a plan unless they run zero disruption." I snap keep on multiple cmc 1 fixing spells and 2+ lands. I throw back hands that are Cloudpost, Titan, Show & tell, x4 cmc 3+ cards. Your testing with my encounters will show you why.

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Originally Posted by cab0747

Hey everyone! Just a quick question: What are your opinions on the mono green version of this deck that put up a top-8 result in the SCG Open in LA?

I have pretty much everything needed for the G version and I am wondering if it is worth putting together or if that list was strictly a meta call.

Thanks in advance!

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The mono green version is great for a budget, and works well if you anticipate plenty of DnT, Reanimator, or Dredge, where Crop Rotate was your go-to combo answer anyway.

For the decks that require Blue to get out of trouble (Affinity, elves, Storm, Delver-anything) having repeal/Show&Tell/Brainstorm are clutch cards, nevermind the comprehensive sideboard.

Pithing needle is a wash, as both decks can get it, but blue finds it easier.

Ultimately, The mono green version does VERY little better than the u/g version, on top of being highly matchup reliant; Something that infuriates me.

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Originally Posted by Rock Lee

The mono green version is great for a budget, and works well if you anticipate plenty of DnT, Reanimator, or Dredge, where Crop Rotate was your go-to combo answer anyway.

For the decks that require Blue to get out of trouble (Affinity, elves, Storm, Delver-anything) having repeal/Show&Tell/Brainstorm are clutch cards, nevermind the comprehensive sideboard.

Pithing needle is a wash, as both decks can get it, but blue finds it easier.

Ultimately, The mono green version does VERY little better than the u/g version, on top of being highly matchup reliant; Something that infuriates me.

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Thanks! I really appreciate the feedback. Congrats on your recent finish!

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Originally Posted by Rock Lee

Thank you for the precise and comprehensive question.

The "stock" list of U/G is 3 basics, 2-3 needles, with a flex slot of 2-3 sweepers. Moment's peace is the meta call "sweeper" of choice atm. Additionally 3 basics are enormous at the moment both against wasteland and blood moon. More generally, the standard list fare better against mana and hand denial, so with BuG running rampant, it is the stablest of builds. The Punishing Fire build is stronger against Bug as a whole, but weaker against blood moons or elves.

In the past I have splashed red for the cards mentioned and a few others simply because red offers removal and kill colors. Great responses to Blood Moon, all in the control, removal, and combo variants. Punishing fire was very strong against BUG, but ultimately awkwardly suffered as an archetype against Blood Moon. Sneak Attack suffered from the same discard strategies you were trying to fight. Bonfire required setup and was amazing when it worked, but was more of a meta-recoil against Young Pyromancer.

The GSZ and green creature movement was an initial attempt to fight BUG by out-advantaging them, but ultimately played directly into their grindy plan.

The Ensnaring Bridge plan in a UG shell fits magnificently in a slot that beats BUG. When their discard is online Bridge works better. When they don't have discard it has to be countered/removed anyway.

With M15 less than 2 months away and the highly projected Waste Not stirring swamply leviathans, having a strong plan against discard is a must and I consider this meta experiment highly pertinent.


For Playstyle advice. I think the best advice possible is "never goldfish." If you're going to solo test, do it two-fisted tested against other decks. Or something I do all the time is to set a specific encounter parameter. A Few that I regularly use are as follows:
"Opponent plays DRS T1, Hymn + waste Turn 2. Liliana Turn 3, Goyf Turn 4 as a 4/5. Do I beat this?"
"Opponent plays 1 lightning bolt a turn, stopping at 3 land drops. Do I beat this?"
"Opponent plays Duress turn 1, Empty the warrens for 14 goblins turn 2. Do I beat this?"
"Opponent plays Natural Order for lethal on turn 3, DRS turn 4, can activate it 4 times every turn thereafter. Do I beat this?"
"Opponent plays Delver T1, self flips, plays 3 wastelands the next 3 turns. Do I beat this?"
"Opponent gets Counterbalance/Top lock on turn 2. They have 2 force of wills. They entreat for 3 on turn 6. Do I beat this?"

For Hand-Keeping advice, I suggest "never keep on a plan unless they run zero disruption." I snap keep on multiple cmc 1 fixing spells and 2+ lands. I throw back hands that are Cloudpost, Titan, Show & tell, x4 cmc 3+ cards. Your testing with my encounters will show you why.

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Thanks for the thorough response. I'm sure I'll have more questions soon!

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Originally Posted by Rock Lee

The mono green version is great for a budget, and works well if you anticipate plenty of DnT, Reanimator, or Dredge, where Crop Rotate was your go-to combo answer anyway.

For the decks that require Blue to get out of trouble (Affinity, elves, Storm, Delver-anything) having repeal/Show&Tell/Brainstorm are clutch cards, nevermind the comprehensive sideboard.

Pithing needle is a wash, as both decks can get it, but blue finds it easier.

Ultimately, The mono green version does VERY little better than the u/g version, on top of being highly matchup reliant; Something that infuriates me.

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YES. This should be stapled to the top of this thread. Right alongside "do I need candelabra of Townos".

I feel that anyone choosing the mono G version (while it is viable) is walking into event with the Nic Fit attitude.

I've just watched Rock Lee's videos of Somerset: sir, you spin top like a real master!

My compliments

Can this deck works without candelabra? Is too expensive...

So my area (Central Arkansas) has a store that is finally kickstarting a monthly Legacy tournament, and the first one is this weekend. I finally get to play this deck for real and not just online. That being said, this does complicate my prep progress because I don't have all the cards I use online.

Here's what I have for real:

Lands: 25
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Tropical Island
2 Island (I'm going back and forth on making 1 a Khalni Garden)
2 Vesuva
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Eye of Ugin
1 Forest
1 Glacial Chasm
1 Karakas

Creatures: 7
4 Primeval Titan
1 Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
1 Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

Artifacts: 11
4 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Expedition Map
2 Candelabra of Tawnos
2 Pithing Needle

Instants: 13
4 Brainstorm
4 Repeal
3 Crop Rotation
2 Moment's Peace

Planeswalker: 1
1 Tezzeret the Seeker*

Sorceries: 3
3 Show and Tell

Sideboard: 13
4 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Swan Song
3 Mindbreak Trap
2 Karn Liberated
2 ????????????? (Tezzeret may be one)


*I found room to test Tezzeret the Seeker, and so far I love it. If I could get ahold of Ensnaring Bridge before the tournament I'm playing this weekend, I'd definitely keep Tezzeret in my 75 because his artifact toolboxing abilities have been superior to Trinket Mage so far. Going -X for 1 can shift the board entirely in one swift move, especially if it's for Candelabra of Tawnos because he can start +1'ing on it, which opponents will snap-respond with good reason. I've resolved him four times so far. Three times he died the next turn, and the one he didn't he won the game the next turn by allowing me to double Candelabra (which he fetched) into a Turn 5 Emrakul. The other times include when he fetched Candelabra a second time and died promptly the next turn. Once, I used him to fetch Sensei's Divining Top, then he basically acted as a Gideon Jura, and the last time Tezzeret saved me by digging out Ensnaring Bridge against BIG Red before eating a Swan Song Bird I gave my opponent, which kept me from dying the next turn (Karn Liberated eventually pulled that game through). And he also digs Phyrexian Revoker, Pithing Needle, and Expedition Map. But it's still early testing on Tezzeret. When I know more, I'll say more.


So right now what I need is advice on this regarding a blind meta game.

First, I'm not entirely sure what to do about Tezzeret, so I'll likely drop him, which means either adding Crop Rotation, Pithing Needle, Expedition Map, or something else. I'm leaning Crop Rotation at the moment, but any help is useful.

Second, I need to finish out my sideboard. I'm not sure what to do with the last two slots (possibly 3 depending on what I do with Revoker).

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Originally Posted by fluuu

Can this deck works without candelabra? Is too expensive...

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It's there for a reason, and that reason is that the deck is a whole lot more explosive with it. It enables you to get where you're going faster. It lets you potentially accelerate off a Primeval Titan activation, tutor twice with Eye of Ugin, and various other awesome things.

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Originally Posted by Mockingbird

First, I'm not entirely sure what to do about Tezzeret, so I'll likely drop him, which means either adding Crop Rotation, Pithing Needle, Expedition Map, or something else. I'm leaning Crop Rotation at the moment, but any help is useful.

Second, I need to finish out my sideboard. I'm not sure what to do with the last two slots (possibly 3 depending on what I do with Revoker).

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If you do cut Tezzeret, another Needle or Crop Rotation should be fine.

As for your last two slots, I would personally vouch for the awesomeness that is Glen Elendra Archmage. It's very hard for a lot of decks to properly deal with it and you can just let it sit around until it needs to counter something that will mess you up. In the mean time it can trade with a flipped Delver and just piss your opponent off in general.

IMO unless you plan on facing a lot of Chalice & Miracles (which I do not think is the meta now) play 4 crop rotations. They are so good at every phase of your plan, and must-haves I some matchups. Cutting one is also cutting graveyard hate. Wasteland is as big as it ever was today and crops are the best too to fight it!

Interesting idea with Tezzeret the Seeker as an alternate to Trinket Mage. I like the idea. Will probably test it.

I have my list finalized except two decisions:

Tezzeret the Seeker vs. 4th Sensei's Divining Top (I do have the 4 Crop Rotation now)

Khalni Garden vs. 2nd Basic Island

And I tested against someone playing tomorrow, so I know I could be playing against someone playing Death and Taxes with the intention of adding a second Aven Mindcensor mainboard after our match (2-1 my win), and a side plan of Cataclysm and Oblivion Ring.

Lands: 25
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Tropical Island
2 Island
2 Vesuva
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Eye of Ugin
1 Forest
1 Glacial Chasm
1 Karakas

Creatures: 7
4 Primeval Titan
1 Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
1 Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

Artifacts: 11
4 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Expedition Map
2 Candelabra of Tawnos
2 Pithing Needle

Instants: 14
4 Brainstorm
4 Repeal
4 Crop Rotation
2 Moment's Peace

Sorceries: 3
3 Show and Tell

Sideboard: 15
4 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Swan Song
3 Mindbreak Trap
2 Karn Liberated
2 Glen Elendra Archmage

So, tournament report.

The short report.

I was quite the buzz amongst my friends though because big mana into legit big things is not the most common Legacy strategy.

Round 1: Reanimator.
G1. I kept a bad mull to six, and I should have gone to five, but this honestly worked out for the best. I played T1 Basic Forest, into T2 miss land drop, into T2.5 get Crop Rotation countered, then enter scoop phase. The silver lining though is he didn't know what I was playing, so I got to sideboard knowing what to expect while only saw a forest and a green card.
G2: This game is a grindy slog fest. I Revoker Griselbrand, which forces him to Entomb->Reanimate Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite. And I fear the worse when I realize he doesn't have a follow-up. So I get pecked away by Elesh Norn, and stay alive. Eventually desperate enough stick a second threat, he plays his Show and Tell and prays to not regret it. He was sort of lucky because the best I could Show in was Karakas, which I did, and solved Elesh Norn, but now I had to deal with Tidespout Tyrant. Fortunately, he's running out of steam, so I only have a Cloudpost and Eye of Ugin spun on my before I search and cast Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre. He forces it, but hooray for cast triggers. He tries to come back with reanimating Tidespout because that's all he has, But I get Candelabra, and search and cast Ulamog again. This time it sticks and I win. This game had to of taken around 45 minutes because as we were shuffling for game 3, time is called. We decide if he can beat me in turns, I'll take the loss (because the Johnny or Timmy was curious if he could pull it off). He couldn't. Fun fact, I was one of 3 out of 8 matches that ended in a draw.

Also, had I not scooped so fast G1, he would have sided Inkwell Leviathan against me this game, which would have been much more difficult for me.

I boarded in Revokers... and something else, but I forget what. I took out Repeal.

0-0-1

Round 2: Sneak and Show.
Game one: I knew what he was playing because everyone had been telling me that I was going to have a lot of fun against this one in the tone that telegraphs another Show and Tell deck, and I admit, I tilted my head while he was shuffling and saw the Sneak Attack.

When he shows in Emrakul, I show in Titan, and writing this report I realize the huge error I made: I didn't get Karakas. I might have been able to pull it through with Ulamog, had he not of Spell Pierced to throw off my mana math.

Game two I make an equally bad mistake. This is what I called with 2 Revokers and a Pithing Needle.
Revoker: Griselbrand
Revoker: Sneak Attack
Pithing Needle: Jace, the Mind Sculptor

This is what I should have called:
Revoker: Sneak Attack
Revoker: Sneak Attack
Pithing Needle: Sneak Attack

Echoing Truth let him sneak in Emrakul, and I lose.

I fumbled that match... bad.

I sided in Swan Songs and Revokers.

0-1-1

Round 3: Affinity
Game 1: I'm not looking forward to this game. And I was right. Game one he overwhelms me, which I might have been okay with if Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas wasn't backing him up. I dig for Needle, and while I could have gotten Chasm, it wouldn't have helped with Tezzeret 2.0.
Game 2: I get a Revoker on Cranial Plating, which is good. He follows up with Tezzeret. I Revoker Tezzeret after he makes a 5/5 Ornithopter. (After the game, he tells me he had both in hand, so which ever one I didn't Revoke would have been his next play regardless. I stall with Moment's Peace and Repeal, but Archbound Ravenger (sp?) shenanigans eventaully get me.

0-2-1

Round 4: B/W Tokens with Stoneforge and Dark Confidant.
Game 1: I learned to not take a Questionable 6 Round 1, so I'm on the draw after I mull to 5. It's a rough game, but I manage to pull the game through with Kozilek, which finds me Show and Tell into Primeval Titan to go from 3->15 (saving me from death by Bitterblossom Tokens). I'm surprised I pulled that one out.
Game 2: I side in Karn Liberated, which steamrolled him. Him sticking also led me to taking a risky play of playing and Fetching only Locus sources because I had Candelabra and Emrakul in hand. It paid off. I draw into a Misty which I use to get a Karakas, and his only hope is to draw Liliana of the Veil. He doesn't, and even if he did, Karn had already put him in a terrible place.

-1 Bojuka Bog -1 Sensei' Divining Top +2 Karn Liberated

1-2-1


I learned a lot, and by reputation alone I now have at least 3 people worried about playing me. It was a learning experience (I think that's the best way to spin getting 11th out of 16). Oh, and I also learned I need to practice shuffling real cards. My Eldrazi kept clumping together.

Carsten Kotter wrote an article about 12post in legacy and where it is poised.

http://www.starcitygames.com/article...ys-Legacy.html

He gets many points correct but misses on why the sideboard works the way it does, which is understandable with a cursory glance. Knowledge of how to beat elves, storm, and Sneak Attack post-side with an unorthodox deck can't be fumbled in an overview, which is why this thread exists.

Great to get attention though, ultimately mostly just PR and little suggestion or thoughts on his part.

Nice to see people giving the deck props though.

Last sunday was the monthly legacy league here in Madrid the capital of Spain (around 50 ppl). I dosnt knew what to play and made the night before 2 decklist for next day. I builded a punishing post and a ant deck. For the event day I had not an koziliek and missed 2 revokers. So I ended playing ANT and wining. But I lend a friend a missing candelabra and he top8 (he is playing since a few months my post lists) and played the list I builded the night before and ended top8 . Loosing to the best player in Madrid wih miracles featuring 4 meddling mages in the board.
The meta was with lot of delves, tarmo, miracles and so on. Having not a lot of combo. So that was the deck I builded:


4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Tropical Island
1 Island
1 Vesuva
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Eye of Ugin
1 Forest
1 Glacial Chasm
1 Karakas
1 Cavern of souls
1 Taiga
1 Volcanic Island
3 Grove of Burnwillows

4 Primeval Titan
1 Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

4 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Expedition Map
2 Candelabra of Tawnos

4 Brainstorm
4 Repeal
4 Crop Rotation
4 Punishing Fire
2 Show and Tell

Sideboard:
3 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Swan Song
4 Force of Will
1 Karn Liberated
3 Krosan Grip


He Beat some shardless, esper, miracles and lost in swiss to a Jund deck and in top vs the miracles.

The deck features 61 cards. We wanted to include the Cavern cause its a blue based meta. But I didnt know what to take out. I sat literaly 40 minutes in front of the deck thinking if I could cut a land or a spell and ended just YOLOING and throwing my loved statistik away and playing subobtimal 61 cards.


Any ideas what to take out?

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Originally Posted by Togores

Any ideas what to take out?

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The cavern.

The RUG list is significantly tighter than the UG list, where you have loads of play.

Other options are a candelabra or a map or a trop.