[Deck] Deadguy Ale (B/w Confidant)

So I've put my Deadguy Ale deck together after a few months. Generally I've run Sensei's in the past and went for a more slower & consistent route to win the attrition wars, but now I'm actually thinking of pushing for an even more aggressive and explosive start with Rituals and mana denial like the classic MBC.

The new Scars creature Leonin Arbiter came to mind, it just seems perfect in this kind of deck. To be able to set them back with wasteland then drop the cat.. if my opponent ends up drawing fetches you could easily mana screw them before they can recover. I'm thinking with all the top builds running Survival, fetchlands, Knight and the works would really be thrown back. The deck idea would be to get the early jump on them and finish them before they're able to fully recover, anyways I was thinking something like this to start...


Land (21)
4 Wasteland
1 Volrath's Stronghold
2 Marsh Flats
4 Scrubland
4 Caves of Koilos
5 Swamp
1 Plains

Creatures (17)
4 Dark Confidant
4 Leonin Arbiter
3 Jotun Grunt
4 Vampire Nighthawk
2 Tombstalker

Removal/Draw (22)
4 Dark Ritual
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Sinkhole
2 Vindicate
4 Swords to Plowshare

I wanted to get some feedback, what do you guys think about more of an aggro-mana denial approach?

@4eak

Interesting list. I'm intrigued by the archetype, mostly because I don't see it around much anymore. Can you tell us how your matchups have been going, namely against anything that isn't combo?

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Originally Posted by Shiku

Thank you !!!!!
So another question: What to buy first ??

Wastlands, bobs or Jitte ???

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Jitte is not obligatory in this deck. I didn't use it, I was happy with that and results showed me it was a good choice. Buy Wastelands and Bobs for sure.

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Originally Posted by Mystical_Jackass

I wanted to get some feedback, what do you guys think about more of an aggro-mana denial approach?

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I don't like this angle but maybe your metagame is better for this version. Mana denial version with only 2 Vindicates? I mean, any version with only 2?

i like this new route, but i have to say the same thing about vindicate, it should be 4

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Shiku

Thank you !!!!!

So another question: What to buy first ??

Wastlands, bobs or Jitte ???

My manabase uses godless shrines and verdant catacombs as well as tainted fields, so I think I can hold before buying duals.

Any thoughts ??

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Yeah, Jitte is not a must buy for this deck. My version runs Stoneforge Mystic so I run a single Jitte, along with singles of the Darksteel swords.

I would definately buy or trade for a set of Wasteland first. This is pretty much a staple if you want to play Legacy. There are some relatively cheap decks that you can run Wasteland for such as mono-red goblins and mono-blue Merfolk. Bob, however, is a must-run 4 for this deck and you should get a set of him as well.

@Mystical_Jackass :I know you're going for the mana denial plan but after playing a similar deck i've found sinkhole not all that good, its good if its in your opening hand but after that its just crap, cut them for 2 more vindicates and perhaps 2 gatekeeper of malakir, these guys are really good.
If you topdeck a sinkhole its 80% of the times useless, if you topdeck a vindicate there's always something useful you can destroy. As for gatekeeper of malakir imagine this;oponnent is going show and tell second turn with force backup, he shows Emrakul, you Tombstalker and pass. You go duress, dark ritual, gatekeeper with kicker, it happened to me and its enough reason to play 4 for me.

Hey Blue,

The question I have then is, did you run Dark Ritual in your list when you tried using a Waste/Sinkhole gameplan?

Hello. I am prepparing for a big Legacy tournament in my city and was wondering, what would you suggest as a 60th card for my deck. Here are the remaining 59 and SB:

22 lands
2 Scrubland
2 Godless Shrine
2 Caves of Koilos
4 Marsh Flats
2 Verdant Catacombs
9 Swamp
1 Plains

4 Dark Confidant
1 Jotun Grunt
3 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Gatekeeper of Malakir
3 Vampire Nighthawk
3 Abyssal Persecutor

3 Dark Ritual
1 Cabal Therapy
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Vindicate
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice

SB:
1 Jotun Grunt
1 Cabal Therapy
1 Basilisk Colar
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
2 Dystopia
3 Engineered Plague
3 Extirpate
3 Thorn of Amethyst

I am currently running Path to Exile as my 60th card, but I don't like how it advances my opponents game plan if cast early. Don't like 4th Vindicate ether, because it is a bit to slow. And 2nd Jotun Grunt seemed not good in a lot of maches, because you really don't want to see both in a single game and offen enought don't want to see 1 ether.

What do you think about a Mother of Runes as a singleton? It would be a good blocker, carry equipment and provides cover for my Dark Confidant or Vampire Nighthawk.

@ GUdrus I think you would benefit from moving the Grunt to the SB and moving the other Therapy to the MD. You need ways to get rid of your Persecutor and therapy seems the best way to do it. I would also consider removing the Dark Rituals from the MD. Having 3 seems like it doesn't help enough when you need it to. They are a dead draw late game and if they aren't in your opening hand, they lose a lot of their power. I would try maybe 3 Tops in their place. They help fix your draws and reduce the amount Confidant does to you.

Is it just more or do you guys really seem to not like Tainted Field? In this type of deck - mainly one running the Arbiter, I find this to be one of the more optimal alternate B/W land drops. I like it more than cave of koilos and it seems to be best maybe running 3 with 1-2 godless shrines as your other duals.

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Originally Posted by Magicsk8ngenius

Is it just more or do you guys really seem to not like Tainted Field? In this type of deck - mainly one running the Arbiter, I find this to be one of the more optimal alternate B/W land drops. I like it more than cave of koilos and it seems to be best maybe running 3 with 1-2 godless shrines as your other duals.

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Tainted Field would be better for a build with Arbiters than the Caves. I would still keep the count as low as possible though because they are awful to have in a starting hand if the only other land is a Wasteland.

Is it just me or is Cursed Scroll good again? It's a house against Merfolk, does decently against Goblins and allows your random bears to tangle with almost anything, while also pinging at things like Wild Mongrel, Rootwalla and company from Vengevine Survival after the Survival-aspect is dealt with and breaking the face of stupid control decks with difficulty removing artifacts.

Also, now if ever seems like a fine time to play Bojuka Bogs given just how much graveyard reliance decks have and how much of that Vengevine crap you can RFG with just one good Hymn + Bog. They aren't all that bad against Knight of the Reliquary, Tarmogoyf and company either.


Initial, off-the-top list broadly implementing said concepts:
// Lands
2 [9E] Swamp (2)
3 [ZEN] Marsh Flats
1 [SOK] Tomb of Urami
4 [TE] Wasteland
4 [WWK] Bojuka Bog
1 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
4 [A] Scrubland
1 [ON] Polluted Delta
1 [ZEN] Verdant Catacombs

// Creatures
2 [FUT] Tombstalker
4 [RAV] Dark Confidant
4 [ALA] Tidehollow Sculler
4 [ZEN] Gatekeeper of Malakir

// Spells
3 [MR] Chrome Mox
2 [JU] Cabal Therapy
1 [PLC] Extirpate
4 [A] Swords to Plowshares
4 [LRW] Thoughtseize
4 [AP] Vindicate
4 [FE] Hymn to Tourach (1)
3 [TE] Cursed Scroll

I like your list a lot, in the current metagame I think we will see a rise in these kind of decks because of the positive match-up against merfolk and madness. Have you tested it? Because at first glanse it could maybe use a few more solid beaters. Maybe dark ritual instead of chrome mox so grave titan would be an option, the guy is just nuts.

Eldariel, how is your testing of the list going? I've always been tempted to run 2 Tombstalkers with Bobs (and without SDT), so I'm curious about your results. Also, I've got some suggestions for your list. I don't think Chrome Mox is a good option for this deck, good old Dark Ritual would be better, especially with Tombstalker. Also, I think that with 4 Bojuka Bog you lose too much tempo, Jotun Grunt can take care of Goyfs and Knights. And how is Cursed Scroll performing? For me the best answer to merfolk is just getting a Sword of Fire and Ice and slice through'em :cool:

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Originally Posted by DrNojman

Eldariel, how is your testing of the list going? I've always been tempted to run 2 Tombstalkers with Bobs (and without SDT), so I'm curious about your results. Also, I've got some suggestions for your list. I don't think Chrome Mox is a good option for this deck, good old Dark Ritual would be better, especially with Tombstalker. Also, I think that with 4 Bojuka Bog you lose too much tempo, Jotun Grunt can take care of Goyfs and Knights. And how is Cursed Scroll performing? For me the best answer to merfolk is just getting a Sword of Fire and Ice and slice through'em :cool:

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So far Cursed Scroll has performed about on par with expectations. It's been surprisingly good against GW Survival; it feasts on Hierarchs, Mommies, Qasalis (if there's no mana open), Goyfs/Knights after Bog, and Fauna Shaman. It isn't perfect but it definitely makes Gatekeeper hit harder. Against Merfolk they just really don't want it to resolve. First it kills all their guys and then it kills them. Between your removal and discard, you can generally get rid of enough lords to make it efficient, though Aether Vial complicates matters as always. The one awesome thing about it is that it gives you reach too; goes over the top to the face if e.g. Survival finds its namesake and starts to stabilize after you've been beating them down, or if Goblins generate a roadblock.

And sometimes when all threats trade and only Scroll remains, it's a perfectly reasonable way to finish the game especially after cleaning the board up. Most decks have a hard time removing artifacts and bringing arti removal in for 3 scrolls alone makes you feel stupid when they don't show up (sure, you can destroy Moxes but whatever; by the time they are destroyed you've generally drawn the extra land anyways).


I'm actually pretty happy with Chrome Mox. I definitely like it a lot more than Ritual. First, I want to accelerate to 2 mana, not 3. You might notice how e.g. Hippie is conspiously absent. I don't really have anything at 3cc I care about that early. What I want is 2 mana ASAP especially in Seizeless/Therapyless hands. Second, I really don't want to devote deckspace to accelerants that don't stick around. I tried Mox Diamond but most of the time I was barely using it for anything but an unwasteable source of white (Plains may be right but BBs and 5 sources that don't produce black feels bad especially since you always want to cast Hymns ASAP *shrug*).

Though I do feel that the deck needs more beef. Grave Titan seems too expensive no matter how I look at it; the deck just doesn't get to 6 mana in normal games, Ritual or no. Abyssal Persecutor seemed slightly more interesting especially with all the removal in the deck being 100% capable of killing him aside from Cursed Scroll. And I was considering the Stoneforge Package. But I'm not at all sure what you'd want to give up for it. It takes a lot of deckspace with at least 2 pieces of equipment and 3 Stoneforges. That would make the 2/2s much more of a threat and give you more expendable bodies for Therapy, that's for certain.

But yeah, basically everything in the deck is a 2-for-1. Like, obviously Stalker, Vindicate, StP, Seize, Therapy and Extirpate (usually) aren't. But Hymn is a 2-for-1, Sculler can be a 2-for-1 (if not removed; Merfolk and Vengevine Survival notably tend to have trouble efficiently removing creatures), Dark Confidant just draws infinite cards, Gatekeeper is a 2-for-1 & Cursed Scroll generates incremental advantage. And actually, Bojuka Bog can often hurt people real bad.


I agree it can be a bit problematic but it's really the optimal 3rd land to play. The amount of damage it does after Hymn or Seize+Therapy or even just after removal against anything green (basically anything green is graveyard based unless it's Elves; Tarmogoyfs, Knights of the Reliquary, Terravores, Vengevines, you name it) is just huge. That mono-black control list that Top 8d ran 4 Bogs which caused me to test it a bit more; I think there's something to that. Sure, it's sometimes inconvenient especially since it's Wasteable but many times I've simply won games due to correctly timed or topdecked Bog. Heck, between Bog and Tombstalker it's not rare to see Goyfs revert to 0/1s. Bog is basically a free, uncounterable spell that taps for B after you've played it. That's good in my books.

"I am currently running Path to Exile as my 60th card, but I don't like how it advances my opponents game plan if cast early. Don't like 4th Vindicate ether, because it is a bit to slow. And 2nd Jotun Grunt seemed not good in a lot of maches, because you really don't want to see both in a single game and offen enought don't want to see 1 ether.'

Since path is not doing it for you, I think the best answer is Gerrard's Verdict as a fifth Hymn to Tourach.

I've had MBA for quite some time now (the build which ran x4 Dark rit, x4 Tombstalker, x4 Snuff Out, x4 Shade) and frankly I've felt it's time to move on. The problem I often ran into was that I was so control-oriented that when it got into late-game I would either lose to planeswalkers or lose to my opponents cantrips. Naturally I attempted to solve this problem by adding Bob. Afterwards, however, the deck wasn't at all how I liked it. I had to remove the Snuffs, lower Stalker down to 2-3, and add SDT to even make it viable. I wasn't pleased with the result.

I then moved onto Pox which, while fun, ultimately was lacking. You had to keep constant checks on the game state to make sure Pox was being used fully, and you had to minimalize the creature-count to maximize your pox effects. The pox effects, while amazing, denied you amazingly useful cards like Bob, Thoughtseize, and so on.

I also took a look at The Gate which solved the issues of running Bob with an Evasive flyer, but I still found myself desiring targeted removal and a way to deal with Planeswalkers.

So, I've currently moved onto Deadguy Ale to see if it has what I'm looking for.

The build I've put together thusly is as follows:


4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Marsh Flats
4 Scrubland
4 Wasteland
3 Swamp
1 Plains

4 Mother of Runes
4 Dark Confidant
3 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Gatekeeper of Malakir
4 Vampire Nighthawk

4 Thoughtseize
4 Swords to Plowshare
4 Deathmark
4 Vindicate

2 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Umezawa's Jitte

3 Dystopia
4 Powder Keg
4 Engineered Plague
4 Leyline of the Void

Lands
8 fetches gurantees that A) I hit a Scrubland, and B) that I make full use of Bob/Top.

I'm considering running 1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth as I run 12 non-mana producing sources. My meta has next to none Stifle's, and I'm the only Dragon Stompy player, so the fetches are for all intensive purposes guranteed to suceed. It may be smart, however, to have a back-up plan should I need to be more frugal with my life.

Creatures
There is a lot of aggro/Bant in my area, and Mother of Runes assures me that I can either negate and attacking creature, or shield a creature from a potential StP or PtE.

I'm currently running no Tombstalker for the sole reason I couldn't fit him into the deck. That having been said, I think it is important to have a solid, evasive beater that can be a game finisher if need be. What I may end up doing is dropping the 4 Deathmark and adding 2 Tombstalker and 2 Sensei's Divining Top.

I also played arround with Serra Avenger, but inevitably decided that the :w: :w: was hard enough to cast, and that if I was going to be running her I may as well assemble Death & Taxes and then just splash :b: for Vindicate. :tongue:

Spells
I'm not sure how I feel about the Deathmark. It's a solid :1: killing spell that hits majority of what I would need it to, however my meta is starting to see more and more Merfolks, as well as a Dreadstill deck. In which case Smother may be a more viable option. As stated above, I am also considering dropping them entirely for 2/2 Stalker/SDT.

Artifacts
This deck isn't The Gate. My SB runs alot more 3cc than The Gate does, so deck manipulation is necessary. SDT provides me this, works great with the 8 fetches, and it provides me some mid-late game assistance when I enter topdeck mode.

The purpose of Jitte in this deck, similar to The Gate, is to offset the lifeloss guranteed by 8 fetches/4 Bobs/ 4 Seize. My build runs more lifeloss that other versions, but our deck can remove majority of the threats needed. A Stoneforge toolbox, while cute, is unnecessary and forces us to pay above our mana curve for abilities that do little to assist the game state. Jitte is cheap and all 3 of it's abilities are viable in any MU rather than being conditional like the 3 Swords are.

Sideboard

Dystopia- this is for the Enchantress MU. Myself included, there are 3 Enchantresss players in our meta. Anytime I play a different deck I loan my deck out, so I can almost always count on there being 1-2 Enchantresses. True, I run 7 creatures that have the possibility of being fodder to this card, but it is also the best way for black to screw over Enchantress early-game.

Powder Keg- Useful for Tribal/Zoo who have a lot of 1-2cc, and in the Enchantress MU it hits Argothians/Angel tokens.

Engineered Plague- Useful for Tribal/Enchantress MU (if you don't know, you name DRUID).

Leyline of the Void- I'm actually considering taking these out for Extirpate. When my meta was infested with Dredge they really sparkled, but with the absence of Dredge the only time I've ever needed to side them in is the Enchantress MU/Bant when they get and EE-lock. Extirpate will provide a targeted effect that can neuter my opponent of a key card, and the 1cc stays right in line with Bob.


So that's the current list I'm running. I have yet to playtest it since I'd like to finalize a list before assembly, but gimme you're thoughts and opinions.

Forlorn Egoist

You should really diversify your equipment package, since especially Sword of Fire and Ice can be quite a lot better than Jitte when battling the appropriate deck. Especially if you strap it onto a Nighthawk (which is a very solid creature to run these days).

From my experience with the archetype (and a rather similar deck at that), you will find Gatekeeper of Malakir sitting around in your hand for too long, waiting for yout to be able to shell out BBB in a single turn.

Deathmark is debatable, as the Gate thread has already shown quite well. If your meta packs Goblins or Merfolk, you should opt for something else. I really like Doom Blade these days; how many relevant black critters are there these days that you don't run yourself and your Swords can't handle?

For reference, that was the list I played up until about 3 months ago:

1 Sword of Light and Shadow
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Æther Vial

2 Burrenton Forge-Tender
2 Jotun Grunt
2 Spectral Lynx
3 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Vampire Nighthawk
3 Stillmoon Cavalier
4 Mother of Runes
4 Dark Confidant

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Thoughtseize
4 Vindicate

4 Scrubland
4 Marsh Flats
3 Wasteland
3 Bloodstained Mire
3 Flooded Strand
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Plains
1 Swamp

Burrenton Forge-Tender and Spectral Lynx are questionable choices for most, but the first answers Progenitus (at least for a turn, indefinitely if you have a Sowrd of Light and Shadow on someone of your team), Dredge and Goblins quite nicely, and the latter was a meta choice (Bant Survival and especially Firespout everywhere) back then. I'd probably run Bitterblossom over it now.

Hi, id like to introduce you to my current bgw list.
// Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)

// Lands
4 [A] Scrubland
3 [US] Swamp (2)
2 [ON] Windswept Heath
2 [ZEN] Verdant Catacombs
4 [ZEN] Marsh Flats
4 [A] Bayou
3 [OD] Plains (4)

// Creatures
4 [WWK] Stoneforge Mystic
4 [ALA] Tidehollow Sculler
4 [RAV] Dark Confidant
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [ZEN] Vampire Nighthawk

// Spells
4 [LRW] Thoughtseize
4 [FNM] Swords to Plowshares
1 [DS] Sword of Fire and Ice
1 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
3 [AP] Vindicate
4 [DS] AEther Vial
1 [DS] Sword of Light and Shadow

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [AP] Vindicate
SB: 2 [FNM] Duress
SB: 2 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 3 [CFX] Path to Exile
SB: 4 [SHM] Faerie Macabre
SB: 3 [PLC] Extirpate

1st, id like to point out that my meta contains tons of blue controldecks, so i decided to add 4 Aether vial which ought to do a great job against those decks. Vial also accelerates the deck in a proper way, so in a way, its solves the problem about the slow start. Tidehollow Sculler got the simple advantage to Hymn that its a creature and can be equiped with on of these Swords. Still, im not satified with the number of Vindicates. 21 lands were not enough since I run no Sensei's Divining Top or other cards which can dig for lands, so i had to remove 1 Vindicate for the 22th land. Im even thinking about the 61th card, but i doubt that this is the way to go. Perhaps u can suggest the cut for the 4th Vindicate.
Thx in advance for ya answers.

I've played this list three times. Two times 1st one time 4-2. It is a straight forward attempt on getting control over the board and drop a Confidant/Stalker and go for it.

Mainboard: (60)

3 Polluted Delta
1 Plains
2 Bloodstained Mire
3 Scrubland
4 Wasteland
5 Swamp
4 Marsh Flats

1 Faerie Macabre
4 Dark Confidant
4 Vampire Nighthawk
3 Tombstalker

4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Vindicate
4 Hymn to Tourach
2 Diabolic Edict
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Sinkhole

Sideboard: (15)

1 Faerie Macabre
3 Perish
4 Engineered Plague
3 Duress
4 Leyline of the Void

This list is especially good against all kinds of threshold. And beats Control frequently. It can also win against VV-Survival. First of all: I chose not to play Jitte/Mystic because I don't want to draw it against any kind of control. Against Aggro I've got enough removal.
Inquisition is better in this list because of mana-denial (Sinkhole, Waste, Hymn, etc.) and Confidant. I lost a lot of games against any aggro-list just because of Thoughtseize and Confidant.
Four Senseis is the right number, because it is the decks key card. We have 9 Fetchlands that can shuffle away the second or third Top.
Faerie Macabre is in the flexible slot, because I have one SB slot and one maindeck to make it less random.
Any thoughts or ideas?
Comments?