The OG post is 4+ years old, I hope people see that when they open the thread and fast forward to the last 20 or so pages, but I can understand the want for it.Quote:
Originally Posted by MTG Junkie
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The OG post is 4+ years old, I hope people see that when they open the thread and fast forward to the last 20 or so pages, but I can understand the want for it.Quote:
Originally Posted by MTG Junkie
Even though it isn't fully up-to-date either, I still find Ari Lax's Storm Primer to be one of the best articles about storm as it gives great insight into the fundamentals of playing the deck (and even combo in general); something most primers omit.Quote:
Originally Posted by MTG Junkie
Liam's TNT primer may be a little bit better with the way the current lists are built (BW). I'll link in the morning. but agreed otherwise.Quote:
Originally Posted by NesretepNoj
Looks like all those list choose preordain over ponder so the SDTs actually occupy the place of preordain in more mainstream lists. Still new to this archtype but thats my impression.Quote:
salvor
I saw that a lot of builds run some number (two) SDT and don't run ponder. Why? I can't get it. Can anybody clarify?
Ive been running 1-2 tops over preordain and I love their ability to grind when needed. Sure they can be mana intensive early but I often have mana for EoT activation without expending cantrips and they will usually draw FoW turn zero. They are sick for desperation digs in conjunction with fetches and cantrips plus I like the way they can make hands keepable that would otherwise be questionable if top was a preordain instead.
Edit- im playing with burning wish with PiF side and main. Do I really need to put an IT in the board? This has been my design but since Im waiting on the 4th BW to arrive I havent put the 4th IT in the board and so far I havent really missed the option, probably due to PiF in the board.
When I played at Mythic Games I never wished for Past in Flames,I always wished for :tongue:Grim Tutor.
You always want/need a Tutor when trying to complete the Past in Flames loop,so I maxed out on Tutors with 4 Infernal Tutors main and 1 Grim Tutor side.
I understand every body can't get Grim Tutors, hell I barrowed the one I used.
That being said 4 Burning Wish,3 Infernal Tutor main and 1 Infernal Tutor side is the next best thing.
I would keep the Tutor in your board and cut th e Past in Flames for something else useful.
Wasn't a bad read,I alredy know all that stuff though.Quote:
Originally Posted by NesretepNoj
When I was reading the thread primer I guess I was looking to see if there was anything I overlooked.
There wasn't lol,there was just a bunch of outdated info.
This makes sense and was my original intent since theres no way in hell im paying 150 for a card like grim tutor. I think PiF side is still good though because if I do have a tutor in my grave then it reduces the cost of the PiF 'loop'.Quote:
When I played at Mythic Games I never wished for Past in Flames,I always wished for Grim Tutor.
You always want/need a Tutor when trying to complete the Past in Flames loop,so I maxed out on Tutors with 4 Infernal Tutors main and 1 Grim Tutor side.
I understand every body can't get Grim Tutors, hell I barrowed the one I used.
That being said 4 Burning Wish,3 Infernal Tutor main and 1 Infernal Tutor side is the next best thing.
I would keep the Tutor in your board and cut th e Past in Flames for something else useful.
Off topic im trying to figure out when to search for anti-hate. Specifically maverick since they run soo many hate bears. Basically ive been trying not to panic when things like teeg hit the board but start to worry when thalias and ethersworn cannonists or mindcensors hit. So what is the point when I hit the panic button and switch plans to deal with these guys?
@mtg junkie, not a good choice BW into Grim into Pif loop is really mana hungry, better Grim main IT side, BW into IT into PiF = Grim into Pif loop... Grim side is legitimate choice, but feels clumsy
Wishing for Grim Tutor is a back up plan,that's why I play 1 in the side.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sloshthedark
I play 4 I.T. main to keep it fast and consistent.
If you try to go for the loop all in one turn it obviously cost more mana. Witch is not that hard seeing how that's what the deck does,make mana.
Wishing for it the turn before you go off is also a good idea.
You are entitled to your opinion and that's fine.
If it doesn't work for you that's fine to.
I'm not telling people what to do. I'm saying what works for me.
With that be said,don't tell me its not a good choice.
ThomasDowd- I saw your list on Starcity,congrates on comming in 46th.
I hope there will be a report!
Moving the next two days, will do when I get some time.
List for reference:
Artifacts
1 Chrome Mox
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
Instants
1 Ad Nauseam
4 Brainstorm
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Dark Ritual
Sorceries
4 Burning Wish
4 Duress
3 Infernal Tutor
1 Past in Flames
4 Ponder
3 Preordain
1 Tendrils of Agony
3 Thoughtseize
Basic Lands
2 Island
1 Swamp
Lands
1 Bloodstained Mire
4 Polluted Delta
3 Scalding Tarn
2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
Sideboard:
1 Chrome Mox
2 Chain of Vapor
1 Echoing Truth
2 Extirpate
2 Slaughter Pact
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Infernal Tutor
1 Meltdown
1 Past in Flames
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Thoughtseize
1 Virtue's Ruin
Edit: quick summary, also not much to report, matches were relatively straight forward
R1 UB infect w shoal W 2-0
R2 Elves W 1-0(opp had deck reg error)
R3 Affinty L 1-2
R4 Maverick W 2-0
R5 Pox W 2-0
R6 Reanimator L 0-2
R7 Dredge L 0-2
R8 Elves W 2-0
Matches of note
R2 elves opponent did not play a land for the first three turns of the game i leisurely killed him.
R3 opp had canonist main as i was greeted with on turn one after losing the die roll, also I boarded out discard and he had traps(x2) in G3(oops) after I dealt with 2 canonists.
R5 opp did not play chalice on zero in G2, i played petal and proceed to AN and kill him on turn one via petal, Drit, Crit, IT,LED
R6 i will probably come back to this one later, but i got mised out pretty bad but the matchup is miserable as is
R7 i got a game loss when i resolved extirpate because in poor instincts i accidentally combined his grave yard and library when I resolved the second one, regardless I was probably not winning that one anyway, down a game he had approx 15 cards left in his library and was going to destroy my hand the next turn
Overall I played against a bunch of random decks, so I crushed them, I only ever had to deal with hate bears on the day most of the time. I will come back to R6 some other day but it was an interesting matchup also against a friend, that I felt kind of in it, but he ripped some good 'uns.
PiF is absurd, I still need to make some tweaks overall, but liked my general construction of the deck, the sideboard probably needs the most work. I probably made a few misplays on the day that could have been more streamlined, but got there anyway, my losses felt like I wasn't going to win those ones anyway (a very good dredge player, a hateful affinity player and a pretty miserable re animator match up, Iona in G1 (off a careful study, must be nice), and in G2(off a top decked entomb after we had a discard punching session))
Wish I would have had the chance to play against more blue decks, I actually feel really good in those match ups with PiF and discard, and oddly enough feel more comfortable fighting that and their random grave hate, than anti combo hate from the other decks.
On the day I wished for IT at least 3 times, probably more, to get the PiF engine online. Never wished for Virtue's ruin, or Meltdown, used every other card other than those though, and I would not cut ruin, meltdown I could see, but as a friend put it before the tournament, "if you ever need to wish for it and it's not there you will hate yourself" and on that note I cut the third extripate I was going to play for it, still dont know if it was correct or not, since graveyard decks seem a lot more popular than mud or chalice decks, probably a meta call.
Edit 2: I had 3 AN kills, 1 goblins and the rest of the wins were with PiF(6).
I find myself wondering how many times you wished for Past in Flames.
I never wished for it at Mythic Games and I never wish for it at weekly events.
I ended up cutting it for a 2nd Empty the Warrens.
Not sure if it is the best use for that slot yet, but time will tell.
I like PiF in the board but I've actually gone from 2 EtW to 1. Does this mean you're are boarding one in and leaving one effectively giving you 8 copies?
Also congrats ThomasDowd! Do you board in both pacts and both CoV against permanent hate?
Junkie:Quote:
Originally Posted by MTG Junkie
I wished for it twice on the day. Once to set up the kill the next turn versus an elves player and once while going off after I had infernal'ed for an extra ritual the turn before. Also not being able to get the best card in the deck with half of your tutors seems silly.
I never found myself wanting to board in the empty, but could see it happening vs decks with more of a clock(I'd probably side out the AN) with disruption (RUG, but they are about 50/50 to have).
Tombstalker:
Yeah, most of the permanent hate these days is creature based so the pacts are very good, I also got to play a pact and flash it back via past in flames for 2 free storm count which was pretty satisfying. Typically I board out all my discard versus maverick with the exception of a thoughtseize and board in the 2 pacts, 3 bounce and the chrome mox. Vs. affinity I should have left in more discard, I boarded the same as maverick, but forgot they play mindbreak trap post board. (I would probably board the 2 chains and 2 pacts for duresses, and possibly a preordain for the 4th thoughtseize to the main)
Moving forward I want more extirpates since that may be the only way to win the dredge/reanimator matchup. possibly cutting the chrome mox and/or the meltdown. no one plays chalice/ mud and you may just want to toss that matchup along into the counterbalance pile and almost give it up, and since no one plays either of those decks I'd rather use the spots on cards that matter. going to work on the board the next few weeks and figure out what i need to do with it.
Cool I'm on a similar plan with 2 pacts 2 chains against maverick and I've really come to appreciate pact. I've also been running 2 IoK in the board but ive been considering going up to 3, all to board in against hate bears. Anyone else that does this? I guess my board is similar to TES although I would like to squeeze some extirpates too. For those of you who run PiF side do you also run IGG or has PiF replaced it?
Lastly regarding sweepers I haven't really been impressed with virtues ruin or infest tbh. Reason is Thalia. I am now thinking pyroclasm or even massacre would be better and just deal with teeg with pact/chain/death mark. Pyroclasm also seems worthwhile against dredge and other corner cases too. Thoughts?
Edit- I own dead of night and I've used it elsewhere but its not a tutor target so not sure how worthwhile it would be.
Hi, Tombstalkr!Quote:
Originally Posted by Tombstalker
I am the guy running both IGG and PiF in the SB.
And My bulit is 3 Infernal Tutor/3 Burning Wish split(with 1 Infernal Tutor in my SB). I have IGG in my SB, and IGG is really useful sometimes even if you guys already have PiF both in the MD and SB.
There was one time I won via a ridiculous IGGY-LOOP.
It was against Mavrick,which means I must go off as fast as I can before the hate bears going on the board. My opening hand was: Burning Wish, Burning Wish, LED, LED, Petal, Swamp, another card. I decided to go off turn 1.
My action was swamp for Black mana and then: Petal=> LED => LED=>(Cracking Petal for Red)=>Burning Wish(and then Cracking 2 LEDs for BBBRRR) for IGG=>IGG(with RR as floating mana) to get the 2nd Buring Wish, LED, LED back=>LED=>LED=>Buring Wish(Cracking 2 LEDs for BBBBBB) for Infernal Tutor in my SB=> Infernal Tutor=>Tendrils for Exactly 20.
Yes, if not IGG, I can never go off tun 1. Pif and AdN will not help me in that situation.
So, IGG is a useful storm engine if you happens to draw a lot of LEDs and very few Rituals and excessive Tutors.
Edit: In my opinion, IGG is more useful in SB than in MD if it's a UBr ANT. PiF has the advantage over IGG(in main deck). PiF is less interactive than IGG with you opp, especially if you opp is a blue deck running several Forces. And I will only go via IGGY-LOOP if I am sure(1)my opp is not a blue deck or (2) he has not yet got the counters.
Just personal opinion. hope it will help you.
How are you ever beating mom+ thalia (or any other hatebear)? ruin and infest are good because they kill everything, I can see a shift to massacre if people cut teeg, but they typically play one and have it as a zenith target, so teeg will always exist.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tombstalker
The alternative could be to just play through it.
Ok so ive done some searches and cant find what im looking for so ill just ask, is there a UBg version of ANT that utilizes living wish? Its probably inferior to burning wish but the idea is interesting to me. If anyone could point me in that direction I would be thankful (but not PSI), otherwise I was thinking something like this might work:
Rough outline:
13-16 Lands +
1 dryad arbor
4 LED
4 dark ritual
4 lotus petal
4 cabal ritual
0-2 chrome mox
4 brainstorm
4 ponder
2-3 gitaxian probe
4 autumn's veil
3-4 cabal therapy
4 infernal tutor
3-4 living wish
1 ill-gotten gains
1 tendrils of agony
1-2 ad nauseam
Sideboard considerations with living wish:
shriekmaw
xantid swarm
gilded drake
faerie macabre
scavenging ooze
vampire hexmage
aethersnipe
phyrexian revoker
cabal pit
wasteland
bojuka bog
karakas
glacial chasm
dryad arbor
dark depths
the tabernacle at pendrell vale
plus usual board in options
It seems like there are some very relevant cards right now that living wish could facilitate and all LW targets avoid teeg and thalia which is great. Autumns veil is better than chant in a couple ways (except stopping attacks but lands handle that) while cabal therapy seems really good with probe + arbor (and swarms etc since sometimes you may want to still shred their hand after chanting them).
So is this worth pursuing or not?
BW was introduced to the ANT lists so they can have some more business because 4x IT + And were not enough, it is used as the replacement of Grim Tutor (not that BW is inferior to it, neither superior, just kinda different animals that may fulfill the same role). Living Wish is inserted into ANT as a protection slot, not business, so I guess it' s not worth trying it that way, because regular protection is more than enough for the current lists (it is not the main flaw of the deck, but the lack of business may be...).
However it can be funny to see a Tombstalker coming from nowhere once opponent's hand is fully ripped.You can make some laughs and steal some random games.
Greetings,
Iņaki.-
P.S.Plus the Mage + Depths seems quite greedy to be pulled (both) from the wish, and playing an hybrid (with some mages and depths main seems quite anti-sinergic.
Hey guys, i finally settled on ANT again and played some bigger tournaments with it.
I top8ed all of them, losing in semifinal and final in the first two (which were GPTs for Ghent :( ) and in the last swiss round of our local tournament, which 60 players attended to, only losing to Reanimator a friend of mine piloted because of his good topdecks.
I won G1 and G2 he topdecked Animated Dead on empty hand ->Iona.
G3 is Duress, Entomb, Reanimate ( he told me he topdecked second blacksource, yah -.-)
So record until now is
15-4-1
So, my list (14sb cards)
4 Polluted Delta
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Scalding Tarn
1 Island
1 Swamp
2 Underground Sea
1 Badlands
1 Volcanic Island
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Duress
4 Infernal Tutor
3 Burning Wish
1 Past in Flames
1 Ad Nauseam
1 Chrome Mox
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
SB: 1 Tendrils of Agony
SB: 1 Empty the Warrens
SB: 1 Virtue's Ruin
SB: 4 Dread of Night
SB: 1 Meltdown
SB: 1 Pyroclasm
SB: 2 Inquisition of Kozilek
SB: 1 Grim Tutor
SB: 1 Ill-Gotten Gains
SB: 1 Duress
I'm very pleased with this setup.
I switched 1 Duress MD and 1 Inqiusition of Kozilek in the SB to have the option to Wish for Duress (better against Force, Sneak Attack and so on).
What are you thinking about this list in perspective of GP Ghent upcoming?
(Especially sideboard!)
I need one more card in the sideboard because i cut the Past in Flames because in never wished for it in all 3 tournaments and in my extensive testing-sessions.
Some questions:
How do you think this deck is positioned in the metagame exspected in Ghent
which I think will be GW, RUG, SneakShow, Reanimator and other usual suspects with UWx Miracle, Goblins, Dredge, UR Delver and maybe HighTide leading the pack?
What do you think about 1 Chrome Mox vs. Rain of Filth vs. 15th land in this list?
Do you think there's any way we can beat Reanimator without stretching the deck to hard? This is by far our worst relevant matchup and I think it's just a coinflip and based on the amount of discard we can fire off.
What do you think of the protection/business/cantrip setup? (Ok, very general question :-P )
My sideboard is pretty much Wishtargets and hate for the GW matchup, because I think no blue deck (besides Reanimator) can really win against this list except maybe for SneakShow and RUG. Do you think this is a correct assumption?
Do you think meltdown is needed at all?
If not, what would be a nice addition?
15th card in sideboard could be In the Eye of Nowhere, Reanimate/Bribery or something, any suggestions?
Have a great day,
Aekhold
Congrats on your finish I like you're list. I have recently picked up ANT and I'm also on the probe + therapy plan. Probe has proven to be excellent especially with PiF and both therapy and duress screw misdirection which is really relevant with SnS bring so popular. Anyway i would suggest -1 probe -1 therapy for +1 duress (or +2 with thoughtseize in the side). My reason is multiple probes in you're hand start to add up to a'hidden Mulligan' so to speak while duress is just to good to not run 3-4. Also I think mox is better than RoF since rain is the definition of all in and doesn't flash back off PiF or help with a blind AdN.
For your board I actually really like dread of night since maverick can be a beating, in my limited experience with this deck. I also bring in a couple dread, much easier to board in 1cc mini wrath then to try and wish for 3cc wraths. Not sure 4 + virtues ruin is necessary though. I currently board into 2 cov 2 dread 2 pact, which brings up reanimator. Pact and chain would help this match along with extraction effects. Also pact has good synergy with PiF vs Mav.
I assume IoK is mostly for maverick and clasm for gobbos/Mav? I may be wrong but I question the need for IoK in the board since those types of decks are so threat dense they will just topdeck something.
For alternatives I would suggest 2 pithing needles, good against many of the top decks right now, cheap and can be dropped off show and tell and tells you what to name. I would also consider some form of grave hate since reanimator and dredge both seem faster than us IME. Also some form of bounce as you stated and maybe replace a dread for a pact. Lastly here's a thought, flusterstorm could be a blowout against decks like reanimator and SnS plus it builds a compound storm, seems better than Bobs although this is only theory.
So ive been inspired by Antonius and his snapcaster build found here http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...ix-20th-Place)
Ive been playing and testing every build and every splash I can get my hands on including TES and I think ive found one that I like but I would like your input since im trying to get the balls up to play ANT in a tournament next month. Anyway heres the maindeck:
Lands 14
4 polluted delta
2 scalding tarn
2 bloodstained mire
3 underground sea
1 badlands
1 island
1 swamp
Creatures 2
2 snapcaster mage
Artifacts 9
4 LED
4 lotus petal
1 chrome mox
Instants 15
4 dark ritual
4 cabal ritual
4 brainstorm
2 entomb
1 ad nauseam
Sorceries 21
4 ponder
3 gitaxian probe
3 cabal therapy
3 duress
2 inquisition of kozilek
4 infernal tutor
1 past in flames
1 tendrils of agony
Its currently 61 cards because im still deciding what to cut, likely 1 probe. Snapcaster takes some getting used to but it seriously often functions as a one-sided IGG and brings pretty insane value to the deck- thanks Antonius for posting your list and report btw.
The other odd inclusion is entomb. I like BW, alot, but it seems like a big portion of my SB gets dedicated to answering permanents, which is something Ive found I would rather just board for rather then try to wish for due to mana investment, at which point is a wishboard worth just a handful of wish targets? IDK. Anyway I really just want to try something that could function like infernal tutor that isnt grim/BW, and entomb is what I am considering. Heres my thoughts on entomb:
Pros:
-costs B so is on color and doesnt hurt much when flipped off ad naus
-turns into daemonic tutor with SCM/PiF
-can 'wish' for a free therapy or anti-hate like pact when paired with SCM/PiF
-builds threshold slightly faster than a cantrip
-higher potential threat density without splashing for more than a single PiF
-allows me to play the full set of IT's in the main (a relative Pro I suppose)
-is another shuffle effect
-more?
Cons:
-slightly increased vulnerability to grate hate (not sure yet how much this matters)
-needs one of the 7 SCM/PiF/IT in hand or in the yard to be worthwhile.
-more?
My one main lament would be loss of access to empty the warrens G1 which is awesome when its needed, so there is that to consider I suppose.
Finally, Im not sure but I think 2 entomb is the right number, otherwise I may drop 1 for a 3rd probe but at that point is it worth the inclusion at all? IDK. So what say you source goers?
So what are you guys doing agains rug
RUG, really hard match up.
-If you are UBr ANT,then you just duress/thoughtseize to see if the path is clear.
Some times if you prefer Gitaxian Probe rather than Preordain, you can run Cabal Therapy to hit. Some successful list runs G Probe/Therapy split and does well.
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-If you are UBw ANT(with Grim Tutor as extra tutor),then you just chant/silence them to death before you go for Ad Nauseam/Iggy-Loop.
I myself prefer chant/silence than discard.Because they have some conditional counters(Spell Snare,Stifle).Both of them can not counter Chant/Silence, but Spell Snare will hit Infernal Tutor(if you are casting Grim Tutor.....Ok, ignore it...) and they can stifle the Storm Trigger if you are not careful enough.
So just chant/silence them to shut off all their counters.
Not to mention Chant/Silence can protect the Iggy-Loop.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
However, it seems UBr ANT is more common than UBw ANT. The most important reason is that UBr ANT runs Burning Wish which is a business and an answer at the same time(Wish->Infest/Virtue's Ruin/) to clean the board that Maverick Provided(Mom,Teeg,Thalia,Aven....)
Ok,just personal ideas.
I split the finals of a small local tournament last night playing a UBr list. My list was close to Thomasdowd's but I ran a 2/2 split of Probe and Preordain in addition to the 3 Thoughtseize. Some thoughts:
- I don't like the single Infernal in the sideboard with 4 Wish main. Infernal is the best tutor in the deck and drawing multiple Wish is just the worst.
- I like Probe a lot but Therapy is pretty terrible. I don't know how many Probes I can run in addition to Thoughtseize, but 2 seems okay. It didn't seem to matter that much when resolving Ad Nauseam.
- I feel like my sideboard is overloaded with hate for Maverick, but runs comparatively little to disrupt blue tempo or control decks. Is there anything worth bringing in besides an additional discard spell or two? I tried Pyroblast for a while, but that doesn't work so well with LED. I know the plan in the past was to board in additional Tendrils in order to naturally Tendrils people out. Is this a viable plan against RUG? Does boarding in 2-3 Empty the Warrens help that MU?
-The reason I had the 4th was to keep the BW line open but both have their merits.Quote:
Originally Posted by apistat_commander
-Therapy is pretty terrible I don't know why people don't get this yet
-Against RUG I'd say just play smart. With PiF the clock isn't as relevant and if they have only goyf or mongoose you have all the time in the world to set up and wreck their hand. the extra tendrils was always very good when landstill was a deck but if thye are on stifle, you look pretty foolish if thats the plan. Maverick is actually pretty bad if they get their bears since T1 mom into t2 thalia or hierarch into mom+thalia is pretty significant and kills you almost as fast as the delver decks do while slowing you down and they have more threats on the way. empty is just as bad as the extra tendrils (versus stifle) other than the fact that you can short storm them for a bunch of dudes so I guess thats ok.
I haven't played much recently, been busy with work and just other stuff, but my sideboard was slightly shifted more towards reanimator for a tick after SCG(although I didn't play at all after) but now that people don't play that deck I'd probably change some things. I have realized the extra chrome mox in the board is pretty bad (I may want it again someday) and I still like the one in the main but the board space may be a bit more important for cards that do things.
I can see the argument for probe, but still hate it since the only thing it gains you is information for two life at card parity, I'd rather be able to interact at one mana and strip something or manipulate the cards I'm drawing. IMO: you maintain card parity with the other two alternatives( preordain/ TS) but gain selection for the price of one mana, which I think is worth it.
Also I really like the RUG matchup, they are nice and challenging
edit: also 8 discard versus control decks is pretty solid i typically also board in a singleton extirpate since if you can snag a force with the first discard spell and then extirpate it, the game is pretty easy to win. You can power through the soft stuff no problem. also it acts as a quasi discard spell once you know their hand, it's still pretty loose though, i will admit that.
Cabal therapy is a very good card in the deck that allows you to beat maindeck hate bears easier while still allowing you to hit force and/or stay in 3 colors. I would argue you do not like it because your hit rate with it is low.
If you are naming correctly, and your hit rate is low, then you just win and you'd have little problem with the card.
There just isn't a better spell for the effect as of now. You surely want to hit creatures and force of will, and losing life or losing burning wish for chant effects isn't great.
I though ANT was really just black and blue
These new lists really look like TES without silent/chant
Someone enlighten me.
Past in Flames is really good in ANT. Burning Wish is also nice.
It looks like these days the TES/ANT distinction comes down mostly to Chrome Mox vs sensible number of lands.
I suppose TES/ANT are like rock/junk. They are really the same decks.
But in a traditional sense, ANT is supposed to be Black/Blue and TES multi-colored.
By having discussion of these decks in the ANT thread, the line become even more blurred.
Also in a traditional sense, rock is supposed to Black and Green, while junk is Black, Green and White. Though both decks are in each other's threads.
I would like to second this. There are definitely reasons to choose therapy over thoughtseize, depending on local metagame. The lifeloss of TS is not irrelevant but even that aside the main factors for me personally are the presence of both maverick and sneak and show in my meta. As previously stated therapy hits both hatebears and FoW, but just as important to me is that therapy cannot be effectively redirected like TS can be. If these arent reasons enough to try the card, therapy also has insane synergy with probes and snapcasters for sick value and acts more like a on-color chant then TS ever could by ripping duplicate spells that ordinary discard effects miss.Quote:
Cabal therapy is a very good card in the deck that allows you to beat maindeck hate bears easier while still allowing you to hit force and/or stay in 3 colors.
True it will never be quite as consistant as TS but in return therapy is potentially more powerful and so far in variations like mine (8 discard/ 3 probe/ 2 SCM) the card has been nuts.
Regarding my list a few posts above the entomb idea fell flat, back on BW...for now.
I think the information from Probe is often worth sacrificing the card selection of Preordain. With 11 cantrips in the deck I often felt like I just drew too many. Probe is plus one storm off Ad Naus or PiF (even if it sometimes takes you off Hellbent for Infernal). I think they are both worthwhile cards hence the 2/2 split. I also abhor 1-of's unless I have a way to reliably tutor for them (hence me not running a Chrome Mox).Quote:
Originally Posted by ThomasDowd
Yeah, I typically don't have enough space to board in something like Extirpate against control, I would rather just have additional cantrips. I may include an additional Tendrils in my board, but we will see.Quote:
also 8 discard versus control decks is pretty solid i typically also board in a singleton extirpate since if you can snag a force with the first discard spell and then extirpate it, the game is pretty easy to win. You can power through the soft stuff no problem. also it acts as a quasi discard spell once you know their hand, it's still pretty loose though, i will admit that.
Thoughtseize is a superior card in many cases. Opening a hand with no Probe but a Cabal Therapy against an unknown opponent is the worst. Seize ensures that you always hit something, even if it isn't relevant. The other problem with Therapy is that if you haven't seen your opponent's hand in a few turns you can't necessarily Therapy and hit what you need to go off this/next turn. Given that I go off with PiF 70% of the time, the lifeloss from Seize is less relevant even if it slightly speeds up my opponent's clock.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tammit67
Fair on the probes, Think of the chrome mox as notn a 1 of but as the 16th land and/ or the 5th initial artifact mana source off an ad naus, at least thats how i think of it.Quote:
Originally Posted by apistat_commander
I typically cut a cantrip since the game may go kind of long and im not trying to velocity them out in the first few turns, just dismantle themQuote:
Originally Posted by apistat_commander
This is how I do things as well, thank you for putting this a little more eloquently. Always hitting is way more important in my opinion, also I hate guessing "oh man missed on thalia, guess he had the hierarch >GSZ for teeg" is probably one of the worst feelings.Quote:
Originally Posted by apistat_commander
Also agree on PiF, my percentage with that engine may be higher but i just find those lines the fastest/ most compact.
also misdirection with a thoughtseize is not that big of a deal, as the owner of the spell you still choose the card, I mean it sucks, but they also are discarding misdirection and a blue card, so, you are kind of winning, since you are probably using past in flames to get that back later. (bonus: THRESHHOLD!)
Past in flames is the best card in the deck.
EDIT: also v. control, PiF gives you sooooo much game, you can just jam shit and if they counter you can always re go off with Yawg will. card is so awesome.
UBr in top 8 at Gent.
Edit: He won.
Well done
1st place GP ghent
Timo Schuenemann (HokosSchokus?)
1 Badlands
2 Bloodstained Mire
1 Island
4 Polluted Delta
2 Scalding Tarn
1 Swamp
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
1 Ad Nauseam
4 Brainstorm
3 Burning Wish
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Chrome Mox
4 Dark Ritual
2 Duress
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Infernal Tutor
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
1 Past in Flames
4 Ponder
1 Tendrils of Agony
4 Dread of Night
1 Duress
1 Empty the Warrens
3 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Grim Tutor
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Pyroclasm
1 Tendrils of Agony
He's not Hockus, but Timo is a well known Dredge player as well. Don't think he's @ TS thoQuote:
Originally Posted by the resurrection
Don't do that again please.Quote:
Originally Posted by the resurrection
No, I'm not Timo, but that's the guy who designed the Quadlaser Dredge list(see OP of Dredge thread for those interested) . He's quite good.
This might explain the full set of therapies in the deck. I would be interested in his thoughts on IoK main and the possible inclusion of a snapcaster or two.Quote:
No, I'm not Timo, but that's the guy who designed the Quadlaser Dredge list(see OP of Dredge thread for those interested) . He's quite good.
At this thread- props to the decks designer(s) and all influential storm pilots here at the source, playing legacy with demonic tutors black lotus and yawgmoth's will has ruined me for any other deck. Love it.
He said - I think in the GP Coverage - the reason for therapies was his experience. Man I've been waiting for so long to see Storm on top of it all. Just awesome. I've changed my Deck of choice to Reanimator recently, but much love for Storm! I think it's even more funny that a guy who usually plays Dredge (considered as hostile as Storm) won with another unfair Deck. Isn't that just a story for itself?Quote:
Originally Posted by Tombstalker
CONGRATS! Awesome job! I've been screaming with joy and my girlfriend thought I got shot when I saw the 2:1 against elves (even another comboish Deck) in the finals.
Combo is the way to go guys! :>