So where is MD knight the best/worst? Im considering entirely cutting 3 drops so that I can run a 4th lavamancer. thoughts?
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So where is MD knight the best/worst? Im considering entirely cutting 3 drops so that I can run a 4th lavamancer. thoughts?
I haven't ran knights MD in three or so months. Since misstep got printed I just overloaded with ones and twos with an ideal of casting four threats by turn three, attempting to bust through counters/removal. Running knight out turn three to get dazed is horrible, and forcing it really isn't that much better for us since we still didn't advance the board state any that turn. I'd rather play a two and a one turn three. Knight is usually a 4/4-5/5 unless we tap her a few turns, but the game may have passed you by if you're at that point since most other deck's late-games are more impressive.
I have not missed Knights at all. A good mix of 1 drops and burn gets there just fine. I was running Pat Cox's list tonight and beating a good mix of decks: Goblins, NO RUG, Burn and Deadguy. I miss the Gaddock Teeg main, but the Stoneforge was very nice to get Jitte and SoBaM. Still tuning the board, but very happy with 12 solid one drops + Grim.
Something about Big Zoo, it's good but not closely so aggresive as normal zoo, it's just slower and isn't right to play than... Zoo stands for going fast and stuff but big zoo is to slow and if they kill your dryad arbor/noble then you're also fucked up so I woudn't play it anymore.
Now about normal zoo:
Why woudn't you play kotr more then one time :O?
He's a beast I play atm 1 terravore and one kotr in big zoo. But how are they in normal zoo? Never tested them really with normal zoo lol :)
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Spending 3 mana to drop a 4/4 or 5/5 into play just isn't enough any more. I miss the flexibility of running specialty lands with him, but he was always so lackluster that I never actually wanted him. More burn and faster creatures is the way to go IMO. At least for now in my meta.
The burn helps with the slower control decks. It takes a critical mass of it to punch through their defenses, but with some speedy creatures getting them down, some instant speed burn is great at putting pressure on them.
Knight gets put down and either Jace bounced or removed for very cheap. Zoo spending 3 mana at sorcery speed to get answered by a 1 or 2 mana instant is not good.
I've found the Lightning Helixes to be all-stars. Not only are they great in mirror and other aggro-ish decks like Merfolk and Goblins, but they can't be misstepped and the random life gain has even won some games against a Progenitus that now takes 3 swings to kill instead of 2.
In my mind, the biggest question is Steppe Lynx vs Kird Ape/Loam Lion vs Goblin Guide. We have 6 One Drops to play:
Wild Nacatl
Kird Ape
Loam Lion
Steppe Lynx
Goblin Guide
Grim Lavamancer
IMO, and I think most would agree, we start with 4x Wild Nacatl and 3x Grim Lavamancer.
After that, it gets a little more complicated:
Kird Ape/Loam Lion:
Pros: Consistent. Always on.
Cons: Only a 2/3 for 1.
Steppe Lynx:
Pros: Bashing for 4 on turn 2 is awesome.
Cons: Inconsistent. Cannot block well at all. Better with more land, but more land is not what you usually want.
Goblin Guide:
Pros: Bashing for 2 on turn 1 is almost as awesome as 4 on turn 2.
Cons: Gives opponents lands. Not good with Wasteland. Not able to bash through much outside of turn 1 or turn 2.
Steppe Lynx gets better with Sylvan Library providing pseudo-card draw and filtering, but Sylvan can be slow a lot of the time. Great against the control MUs, but not great against the aggro MUs.
Right now I'm playing:
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Loam Lion
4 Kird Ape
3 Grim Lavamancer
It has been good because it's so consistent. If you keep a land light hand and don't draw more, that's ok because your guys are already pumped. You're not relying on drawing land to pump them. And generally, land you don't particularly want. I think that was the main convincer for me. If I'm drawing land, my Lynx is better, but my burn is worse. The downside is that Lynx can be blocked, but burn cannot.
I haven't been thrilled with Steppe Lynx either. As explosive as it can be, it's just too conditional and the fact that it forces you to play 22+ lands makes it a pain in the ass, and counterproductive in a deck that just has a ton of cheap threats and burn. Kird Ape has been just fine.
Goblin Guide I haven't tested with much yet, but I suspect the tradeoff in card advantage is not really worth the extra 2 damage. He also trades with all kinds of important stuff that Ape doesn't...Merfolks and pridemages and such. Could be funny to set them up for a massive PoP though.
I firmly believe that you do not ever need extra lands for steppe lynx. 12 fetches 3 basics 5 duals always does it. the thing is, worst case scenario for me hes a 4/5 on 2 of the three relevant turns and a 0/1 the the other turn, but my opponent could deal with it if it were a 2/3 anyhow. so that's 2 swings (8 damage) vs 0 damage because my opponent has a 3/3 out. lynx is awesome, but don't over-invest.
My weenie list in non-Stoneforge Zoo is:
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Goblin Guide
3 Steppe Lynx
3 Grim Lavamancer
I prefer Guide + Lynx because I expect my weenies to be answered eventually, if not quickly, so I want maximum damage from them before they hit the bucket or a fatty comes down on the other end. I prefer using burn/Path to lower the amount of times I need to worry about defense.
Guide has been good. I don't recall losing games to his drawback. Who cares if they get a few extra land? That means Guide is swinging profitably, multiple times. I've had some situations where they drop a Bob, I drop a Guide. Before they know it, I burn them out because they've taken 7-10 damage off of Bob from reveals because Guide moved all of the land to their hand already. Will it punish you eventually by digging them into Card X that screws you over? I guess. I can't think of many cards that we can't work around that wouldn't have screwed us, Guide or not, anyway (SnT, billion spells into Tendrils, etc.)
I use Lynx because it is randomly relevant, but the potential is so much higher than the 2/3s. Lynx can swing through a Goyf/Knight on occasion. It's your best hope against combo. Library makes it a monster. If you draw two, any fetch-land drawn late is horrific for your opponent. It can chump worst-case but that isn't a very compelling argument, to be honest. I agree that you don't need to pack more land in to fuel it. I'm running 21 land/10 fetches/1 Library and they've been fine.
I do think it's list dependent, though. I tend to lean toward more burn(11-12) in my lists, so that may be another reason why Guide/Lynx appeal to me. Stoneforge versions probably want the consistently fatter weenies to equip + swing without trading.
For people running Lightning Helix, I recommend Dismember instead. Lightning Bolt effects have a diminishing returns vs aggro-control's Tarmogoyfs, Knights of the Reliquary and Batterskulls (after Stoneforge Mystic cheats it into play) but Dismember does a really good job of keeping your Kird Apes and Loam Lions relevant by removing aggro-control's threats just as good as Path to Exile with less of a draw back and no mana color constraints.
I've been running this,
4 Kird Ape
4 Loam Lion
4 Wild Nacatil
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Dismember
4 Path to Exile
20 Lands
And it's extremely difficult for aggro-control to stabilize, especially if they're relying on SFM->BS.
Dismember is terrible. Why would you want to take 4 life for removal? We play Path to Exile, Lightning Bolt, Chain Lightning and Swords to Plowshares.Quote:
Originally Posted by Final Fortune
The only life Zoo wants to do to itself is due to fetchlands, Horizon Canopy and Sylvan Library.
I'd rather give my opponent a land than pay 4 life any day.
Seriously. Cutting yourself isn't cool man.
I agree. Also, it would mean that you're running another set of removal (besides PtE) which you cannot shoot directly at your opponent, making it possibly another dead card.Quote:
Originally Posted by RaNDoMxGeSTuReS
All your removal (especially Grim Lavamancer) will deal with Stoneforge Mystic before it can sneak an equipment in play, so I don't see the additional value of playing Dismember.Quote:
Originally Posted by Final Fortune
Why would you want to give your opponent a land for removal? Every creature removal spell in Zoo has a draw back, and Dismember's draw back is arguably better than Swords to Plowshares and Path to Exile here. The life argument vs Dismember is irrelevant, Zoo is always the aggressor and is rarely ever concerned with its life total - which is why Sylvan Library is the draw engine of choice in the deck.Quote:
Originally Posted by RaNDoMxGeSTuReS
Personally, I like having 8 different ways of telling Tarmogoyf to fuck off with out taking card disadvantage, and any deck where Dismember is dead you've already lost to anyway - except maybe Spiral Tide.
I don't think Lightning Helix is cost efficient enough to play, 2cc removal is terrible and the direct damage is no where near as good as Price of Progress.
Since when did Zoo give a shit whether its opponent has more lands? That's the reason we play Path to Exile over Swords to Plowshares. It clears the way of anything.Quote:
Originally Posted by Final Fortune
Path to Exile and Swords to Plowshares are strictly better than Dismember.
They are a one mana answer to Tarmogoyf and anything else that doesn't have protection from white or god forbid "everything."
Unless you play black--guess what?--Dismember costs one mana and four life.
It won't kill anything bigger than a 5/5.
So why play a narrow removal spell that costs more than Path to Exile and Swords to Plowshares?
By playing Dismember, all you really do is shoot yourself in the foot.
Also.
Life totals are very relevant when playing Zoo.
Oh darn! I can't draw that extra game winning burn spell with Sylvan Library because I chose to pay four life to play Dismember. Oh well. Maybe next time I'll play viable removal.
(And we get you hate Lightning Helix. So obviously don't play it. I'm just saying Dismember is an inferior choice for removal.)
Of course it matters, not being able to Path to Exile a Dryad Arbor because the opponent receives card parody loses games, and Path to Exiling a Stone Forge Mystic only to help accelerate them into Batterskull isn't ideal either - you're not always holding the Lightning Bolt to clear the way for Path to Exile in the mid game when the temp and card advantage are less relevant.Quote:
Originally Posted by RaNDoMxGeSTuReS
I mean, you seem to think giving opponents lands in a metagame being overrun by U/w control (SFM, Clique etc) is less important than losing life, but if that were the case Goblin Guide would be the one drop of choice - and it isn't. Dismember is probably just as good as Path to Exile and Swords to Plowshares while having less of a draw back because it deals with 4/5 Tarmogoyfs, 5/5 Knights of the Reliquary, 4/4 Batterskulls and 5/5 Tombstalkers without advancing the opponent's strategy or slowing down yours. It's difficult for the opponent to boost Tarmogoyf past 4/5 after land, instant, sorcery and creature are in the graveyard and Knight of the Reliquary needs at least 3 lands. I'm not saying it wont happen, because it will, but the time window for them to play around Dismember is enough to kill them usually, and even when they've reached that time window you can still use Dismember as a combat trick to reduce the Tarmogoyf to 0/1 or 1/2 for a Kurd Ape to finish off.
Obviously you don't run Dismember and Sylvan Library in the same deck, hence Life doesn't matter. You're seriously underrating the card in Zoo if you're juding it without personal experience in the deck.
Big surprise, but I play Zoo? So I don't understand what your point is.Quote:
Originally Posted by Final Fortune
Path to Exile answers Tombstalker just fine. You mentioned a drawback? What drawback? And since when did Team America start playing basic lands?
If you're trying to kill a Dryad Arbor, it's not usually because you want to mana screw your opponent. Path to Exile and Swords to Plowshares still shuts the player off Natural Order (assuming that's what you were referring to).
Qasali Pridemage answers Batterskull just fine.
So you're basically saying drop Sylvan Library for Dismember?
Giving an opponent a free land is a drawback. Zoo is fast and doesn't care about that as much as other decks, but sometimes it's still very annoying.
I haven't tried Dismember. I don't think it should be dismissed completely without any testing.
We're running Red and White. I'm not sure I understand how/why people are having trouble finding spot removal spells to supplement Path/Lightning Bolt/Chain Lightning. For decks like monoblue Merfolk, Dismember seems reasonable as it gives them spot removal they would otherwise not have access to. But we are not monoblue Merfolk, we're running colors that give us access to Swords to Plowshares, Lightning Helix, etc. Why is Dismember being considered?
People wanna say they brought the tech to the Source. Or they don't fully comprehend what's going on with this deck and that card. Haven't tested it myself, never going to. StP is a fine 5th-Xth Path to Exile. Better for them to gain four or more life than Zoo pay four to just send some creature to the graveyard.
There are just so many things wrong here.
But you are always holding the Dismember?Quote:
Originally Posted by Final Fortune
A tapped basic is a lot different than 1. Any land and 2. helping them accelerate through potentially dead draws into businessQuote:
I mean, you seem to think giving opponents lands in a metagame being overrun by U/w control (SFM, Clique etc) is less important than losing life, but if that were the case Goblin Guide would be the one drop of choice - and it isn't.
I don't disagree with this entirely, except that for most opponents, their strategy is to get you to 0 life, so saying it doesn't advance their strategy is generally incorrect. Board position, yes.Quote:
Dismember is probably just as good as Path to Exile and Swords to Plowshares while having less of a draw back because it deals with 4/5 Tarmogoyfs, 5/5 Knights of the Reliquary, 4/4 Batterskulls and 5/5 Tombstalkers without advancing the opponent's strategy or slowing down yours. It's difficult for the opponent to boost Tarmogoyf past 4/5 after land, instant, sorcery and creature are in the graveyard and Knight of the Reliquary needs at least 3 lands. I'm not saying it wont happen, because it will, but the time window for them to play around Dismember is enough to kill them usually, and even when they've reached that time window you can still use Dismember as a combat trick to reduce the Tarmogoyf to 0/1 or 1/2 for a Kurd Ape to finish off.
Even if it is excellent spot removal, I don't see it being worth trading Library for. In almost every match, Library is one of the most important cards to resolve (just look at the last SCG open). It drastically changes the course of the game, often more than removing a single creature could. Just thinking about the mirror, if you take 4 to off one of my guys and I have a Library out...unless you're going to kill me that turn, it's happy days. I'm going to draw into another dude, hell, I'll take 4 and draw into 2 dudes.Quote:
Obviously you don't run Dismember and Sylvan Library in the same deck, hence Life doesn't matter. You're seriously underrating the card in Zoo if you're juding it without personal experience in the deck.
It's parity, not parody (parody is what Weird Al does).Quote:
Of course it matters, not being able to Path to Exile a Dryad Arbor because the opponent receives card parody loses games
It's not that Dismember isn't going to sometimes be better than Path, but I think more often than not, Path is going to be better. Path deals with all the same threats and then some, and sometimes exiling a creature can be pretty relevant. There is also the very narrow case of Pathing your own creature in response to removal if you're having mana issues. Maybe I'm misreading and you're suggesting cutting something else? Not sure what would be worth it though.
A little off topic, but I've been thinking about a Glittering Wish toolbox for zoo lately...for a couple of silver bullets/relivant cards out of the sideboard available g1:
Vexing Shusher
Gaddock Teeg
Lightning Helix
Burning-Tree Shaman
While these aren't ideal targets, they are available as well:
Guttural Response
Colossal Might
Figure of Destiny
Woolly Thoctar
Bloodbraid Elf
Boggart Ram-Gang
Double Cleave
So I'm looking to the experienced zoo players that visit this thread often on whether it would be a good idea to playest? I realize that Green Sun's Zenith is pretty damn awesome and all (and I haven't heard of zoo using Glittering Wish before) it at least has a small amount of added flexibility by getting not only creatures, but also potentially relivant spells.
Thank you for any info/viewpoints you share!
Glittering Wish seems awfully slow. I mean, Tarmogoyf often looks slow in this deck. But then, people do play Zenith, which is even slower (compared to Goyf, not to Wish). I guess if you are a very midrangy Zoo, you could try it. But in my opinion Zoo is neither supposed to be a midrange deck nor a silverbullet answer deck. The targets don't even look that enticing.
Why do you need a toolbox when you should be beating face? The only useful card you have listed is Gaddock Teeg. If you're deadset on making sure you have a Gaddock Teeg game 1, run more or run GSZ. Except for Lightning Helix, none of the rest of the cards you list even make the cut in Zoo, let alone for an additional 2 mana, reveal and sorcery speed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Safety
The problem with Glittering Wish in Zoo is the problem with a lot of potential cards in Zoo: what do you cut?
Singletons of multiple creatures/spells:Quote:
The problem with Glittering Wish in Zoo is the problem with a lot of potential cards in Zoo: what do you cut?
Qasali Pridemage (play 3)
Lightning Helix (play 2-3)
Knight of the Reliquary (play 3)
That makes room for 3 Glittering Wishes...which could either get those 3 cards (should you decide you need them in your sideboard) OR you can get Vexing Shusher, Guttural Response, or Gaddock Teeg game 1 vs. control and combo. This is my thought process anyways...it's a rather slow way to tutor for silver bullets, but gives the deck a little better chance (concievably) game 1 vs. problematic matchups.
This is all conceptual...I'm looking for feedback from prominant/experienced zoo players. I'm not tied to the idea emotionally or any other way...it's just an idea, one that I'm trying to look at objectively.
What's your experience in playing Zoo Vs Maverick (GW Stoneforge)? That deck is quite popular all over Europe at the moment and I thought Zoo might be a good counter due to massive removal and Grim Lavamancer. Is the matchup really that good for Zoo or does it stumble against KotR + equipment?
I have tested the pairing and Its positive for zoo, we have a lot of removal and our guys are bigger, mvp vs maverick Sylvan Library.
I played Big Punishing Zoo in our small local tournament last weekend.
the list:
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Noble Hierarch
3 Qasali Pridemage
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
2 Sylvan Library
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Punishing Fire
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
2 Taiga
2 Plateau
1 Savannah
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Mountain
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Windswept heath
4 Wooded Foothills
1 Karakas
Side:
1 Loaming Shaman
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Bojuka Bog
2 Krosan Grip
2 Choke
2 Pithing Needle
2 Null Rod
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Vexing Shusher
Matchups:
Round:1 vs UG Infect 2:0 (recurring Punishing Fire's are just insane vs Infect...)
Round 2: vs Big Zoo 2:0 (was actually a tough battle but him having bad luck in game 2 with his Library)
Round 3: vs Merfolk 2:0 (I just had a nice creature curve and burn for every relevant creature)
Round 4 vs Merfolk 2:1 (Game1: he mulls to 5 - Game 2: he has full board followed by a Perish - Game 3: i get Nacatl and Goyf online and after he lands a Kira my Choke prevents him from casting his Perish again. Karakas + Punishing Fire seal the deal shortly after.
final result: 4:0 (8:1)
I was very impressed by the performance of the deck again. When i remember right i only had to take one mulligan.
@ Muradin: I think this list might be even better vs Maverick due to the recurring Fire's vs "the evil Mutti"
I lost to it 1-2 last weekend, but theoretically I don't think it's a terrible matchup. Basically both games I lost to Elspeth, KotR, Thrun, and Jitte all hitting play, which is a really annoying combination. I was digging for Path/StP with Library but just couldn't find enough, nor enough burn to put Elspeth away.Quote:
Originally Posted by Muradin
How is the matchup against JUNK with zoo?
Not bad I'd say. Requires some tight play though. Hands with more lands are generally better because of Wasteland and Vindicate. Extending into Pernicious Deed should be avoided.
Price of Progress can be a beating for them.
So i have a question, has mm had any testing? It seems that with led out of dredge, mm hits every discard outlet. seems good...
Im thinking of running all 1/2 drops, with 3 lavamen, 2 teeg, 0 pop and 3 mm. previously i ran 4 lavamen, 2 pop.
is cutting pop for mm a good call to beat dredge? seems like it can wreck them..
@Para, why you win is that you only get good matchups lol...
Those decks aren't really hard to play against with big zoo
and I play mm in my zoo 4x mainboard, it works quite good but didn't been on a tournament with it.
But it gives you more chance against combo and also against all decks, like if they play smt manacost 1 you can counter it. POP is very good buy I would also play it in sideboard or maybe 2 main.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BantFTW
totally agree with you about good matchups but wasn't this obvious anyway? I actually only posted the results to point out that Big Punishing Zoo is a nice choice in an aggro meta. In Europe a lot of people play Maverick now so this list might get a little more popular.
Any help: I have a very very hard time fighting decks like Sneak Show, Affinity, TES/ANT, and Belcher
I run 3 Gaddock Teegs in the side, but against some of these decks, its a nightmare.
Storm and Belcher are never going to be good matchups. I've had decent luck with an E. Tutor board to nail decks like Affinity with Null Rod, and Sneak/Show or Natural Order anything with Phyrexian Metamorph.
Oh man. Good thing not too many people play Storm and Belcher now.Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Cheese
Hey guys, I started playing Zoo recently after messing around with combo elves for a bit. This is the list I am running and would appreciate any feedback. I seem to be doing really well with it, and I rather enjoy it. If you have any advice, that would be great! Thanks!
4 Steppe Lynx
4 Wild Nacatl
2 Grim Lavamancer
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Qasali Pridemage
2 Loam Lion
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Path to Exile
4 Lightning Helix
2 Fireblast
2 Sylvan Library
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Windswept Heath
4 Arid Mesa
2 Plateau
2 Taiga
2 Savannah
1 Mountain
1 Plains
1 Forest
1 Horizon Canopy
you can make storm 50/50 or better but it is totally not worthit as you need like 4 Mbt and 6-8 hate bears. In my experience combining hate bears with Mbt or orims chant works alot better than just one or the other.
If Maverick gets big in the states, would Flash of Defiance be worth considering in the board?
Hello and welcome! Your list seems quite good to me. I don't really have much to comment on.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheWingedOne
@Maverick: You don't need narrow cards like that to combat them. Play more Grim Lavamancers and more burn, Ancient Grudge in the sideboard if you're afraid of Stoneforge Mystic. Jitte should be good against them too, although that's a bit risky since they can fetch their own and legend-rule it.